To our veteran players,

In the recent months we have been taking an increasingly proactive stance in marketing and advertising in an attempt to boost our numbers and improve the game experience in general. Some of these efforts have had limited success, others have not been so successful and despite this we have a many more ideas circulating in our general strategy moving forward. Ultimately it is our wish that these efforts will add new members to our community and benefit everyone who plays.

We have had a recent series of brand new players but have noticed some confrontation and hostility toward these new additions to our community. Worse still, some of the players have not been treated with the basic respect that we would hope any player would be given. This has become particularly evident in chastising them over the Newbie Channel, but also with regards to multi-killing in the lower levels. Please remember that roleplay, game rules, PK, and general game knowledge are built up over time. So it is our responsibility collectively as veteran players and Imm staff alike, to guide rather than scold and to give new players something to aspire to, rather than to be dismayed by.

You guys are our veteran player base and have kept this game fun for 20+ years: we respect and enjoy having you frequent this game and most of us volunteered to join from where you are sat right now. There is no question that 95% of our current efforts are in place to try and make the game better and more interesting for everyone and we have many more projects ongoing. So please, respect our continued efforts by being courteous, polite and accommodating to new players on Newbie. Or, if that is not possible, please avoid talking to them entirely.

It takes a great deal of time and resources to advertize and market successfully which is a large part of the reason why we have not always been successful in this area. Please do not squander this opportunity, or our collective efforts, and let's move this game forward into the future as a community.

Happy gaming and good luck in the Fields,
The CF Staff.

Remove PK based edge points.

People are multikilling because you get points based on quantity of kills. It's been this way since people found out how that worked.

Given how huge of a gap there is between a character with 1 edge versus a character with 11 edges...min-max people are going to take the path of least resistance to maximize their points (just like people will go revisit every area with scripts to maximize their exploration points).

Honestly, I'd suggest rolling some edges into the classes themselves and make edges actually be less of a factor overall. They're very cool from a mechanical standpoint but they've changed the meta-game too much.

There was just a highly rewarded emperor that was just accused of doing just that to a certain wood elf bard after they were full looted was there not?

It doesn't really foster a healthy community, and makes the game rather frustrating to play, if not outright unplayable when someone is doing this to you. Why even bother re-gearing when the same gang is going find you and slaughter you again? If you just been sacced or full looted your options are log out, or hide somewhere really remote, it doesn't make for a very enjoyable experience regardless.

So why not put a timer that would be enforced icly and oocly? If someone just got killed and looted, they should be able to continue playing the game without being repeated harassed by the same people that just killed them. Until the victim decides to log out, killing them should not merit any more rewards, no additional pk count towards edges, or even show up in your pdf. You can still kill them again but you should not be to loot them and they shouldn't lose con. This would effect everyone who was involved in killing that person. You would see an aura on that person, which means they are no longer worth of your time. The aura will disappear when they type in 'quit' or afk out of the game (game crashes don't count). They would also lose this aura of protection if they at any time engage on you, use an ability/skill on you, or if they decide to enter your cabal after ghost protection passes.

Abusing this protection at any time (to harass/spy/ or otherwise use it to annoy the person that just killed you, should get you slapped down so hard by the staff, and your character might lose it...permanently.)

The reason I'm suggesting this is because lets say we remove pk rewards from lowbie levels, newbies will still get multi-killed after level 25. This sort of stuff makes the game crappy experience for everyone , there is no real reason to repeatedly kill/loot any player in this game. Its doesn't make the game competitive or fun, its just trolling people.

Getting killed, and sometimes even full-sacced is part of the game, having it happen repeatedly to anyone by the same person/gang during one session shouldn't be.

Mainly because different players have different notions of what CF means to them. A well established veteran of the game, such as Polmier (see below), or Lyristeon, who started playing the MUD in the 1990s when you blink and get PK'd have different notions of what constitutes as "hardship" PK-wise in game.

Tinkering with systems is always tricky and the staff, long before I joined (with training wheels on), already made a lot of concessions on how (un)forgiving the PK environment should be.

Aside from someone having to code changes, actually altering these processes runs the risk of completely disenfranchising a large portion our PK-oriented veterans. Which is largely why we are here appealing to people's sportsmanship rather than discussing behind the scene code changes.

I don't think the staff would rule code changes out, but it would need a lot of careful discussion and implementation. Plus time and a willing IMP, with heavy emphasis on time.

Also relevant to this is that people have really different ideas of what constitutes multi-killing. (Often people also have very different ideas of what constitutes multi-killing when done to them vs. when they do it to others.)

I think someone who keeps right on someone and tries to kill them again as soon as they unghost without a very good reason has been pretty consistently frowned upon and isn't very controversial -- but this is a very very rare case in all honesty.

To me, the dictates of sportsmanship are: if you looted the hell out of someone or know that they were cleaned out by someone else, you owe them time to regear. Also, if they're trying like hell to stay clear of you, you owe them the chance to do it for a while.

And... that's about it.

If you kill someone and they continue to try to raid your cabal or retrieve from your cabal, I think you're justified in killing them.

If someone you kill attacks you again or comes at you, I think you're justified at killing them. I don't think you owe them the chance to sleep you or summon you into a locked room or whatever first.

If your Outlander ranger kills a necromancer getting XP in Emerald Forest and they just go right back to getting XP in Emerald Forest, I think you're justified in killing them again. They know you're there, they know they may well be outmatched and they're not even trying. I don't think it's good for the game to pity brigade on them, first because I don't think this behavior is conducive to improving and becoming a contender, and second because this behavior is attempted by passive-aggressive veterans looking to win a log board victory much much more often than by actual newbies.

If someone attacks your group of three and kills one of you, I don't think you should expect that they now for some reason have to back off the whole group and let you level in peace.

If someone tries to raid your cabal and kills you in the process but maybe isn't in a position to finish the raid before you unghost, I don't think you should expect that they won't come back.

But I see people cry multi-killing on each of these scenarios regularly, so clearly opinions vary.

If the person gets killed repeatedly its more often then not their fault not the person killing them, right? It is their fault for not having enough knowledge to kill their enemy, or finding other places to level, for not knowing how to avoid the enemy better. There is nothing wrong with his opinion.

In my idea you would still be able to kill a person and make them into a ghost, keeping them from doing some things including attacking you for some time. That means if you see that necro again after killing and full saccing them, you still have the opportunity to attack first, and kill them. At that point the necro could flee, or just die. Either way so long as they don't fight back with abilities they wouldn't lose anything, just spend some more time as a ghost. In short a person might who feels the need to kill them for RP reasons like an outlander, or just for defensive reasons can still do so if they feel the need.

However, this doesn't really appeal to the pker does it? The killer-type player loses all incentive to continue hunting and killing this person. They can't make them lose anymore con, gear and they themselves can't rack up more kills or power either through it. The game has always tried to appeal the the pker.

At the end of the day this is a pk-mud. Even though there is a lot of potential fun for the achiever type, explorer type and even rper type players to enjoy themselves at its true core its always been about the pking. The fact of the matter is that it is some of the RP and explore elements of this game that frustrate these types of people, and have even driven some of them away. It does make total sense to me though, you got to stay true to your core audience.

Though taking a line from doctor phil, how has that been working out for you? Lately I mean.

This game stopped being all about mindless killing a long time ago so it isn't able to compete with other mindless killing games on the market. You need to invest time and effort to get edges,recognition, and power. However, typing who pk and seeing a bunch of people in range will mostly likely always bring the pkers back. So I can't help but think if it wouldn't it be a good idea to try to attract other demographics such as the achievers, explorers and yes even the rpers?

I don't know though, its really all guess work, and my experience comes from other games I float around in. To its merit, this game has the potential to attract a large spectrum of people, even though it largely still caters to pk which is fine. It still tries to balance everything else as best as it can which i think is wonderful. After all if it were all about mindless killing I think it would have gone the way of games like shadowbane a while ago. Right now for example, I as an achiever-type player am have a great time even with a lower p-base. If i was to log in and just have nothing to look forward to but getting slaughter repeatedly all the time, with no chance of finding gear while just being forced into unfair pk situations with no variety well then i would probably leave. And just to specify what i mean by that, gathering knowledge/gear/preps and earning edges to fight powerful liches and strong enemies at my best regardless at the outcome is incredibly fun. Having no fetish,no camo,getting murdered by two random flyto/murder shifters and having everything stolen before having to sit at tree unable to do anything because they are waiting for me to come out so they can kill me again since they have nothing better to do is not fun for me. I do understand this might be fun for others though.

I will say one thing though, I think it is important to have a very defined set of rules for what is and what isn't trolling and enforce it rigorously. For example, even with my idea in place, people will still "cry" about getting multi-killed/trolled even if they lose nothing. Also, it really doesn't matter if multi-killing and full saccing, or whatever other negative thing you can think of is rare, or never happens at all. The fact is that if it can or is allowed to happen is enough for people to not bother with it. Right now depending on what time you play, you type who pk and find there are no people to group with to rank and maybe only one person in your range to hunt. I guess multi-killing, even of newbies is likely continue to happen, especially when the onus to prevent it from happening according to killer type player's opinion is still on the victim.

Who knows though, I'm curious what direction you take this game, and how it turns out. For what its worth I'm having fun right now, so thanks for all the effort you are putting into the game. I really do appreciate it. I wish you luck in whatever you decide for the future too.

Having only played characters who have no fetish 100% of the time, there is plenty of stuff you can do in that situation.

I learned the game playing evils when Oshui was in his prime, and finding ways to be productive when you have 5+ outlanders/fortress/ragers all looking for you and not each other is if anything more thrilling than a 1vs1 battle where each of you has an even chance of winning. A login where you've run a gang of 4 all over thera and managed to grab a few preps in the process without dying is a very real victory. If you are relying on cabal powers and allies to stay alive, you have plenty of room to improve and opportunity for practice.

I truly understand some people love that sort of thing and don't mind being killed more then once with no real chance of fighting back. I didn't but I put up with it as much as I could at the time.

Back then if I remember correctly what seemed to more common occur though is that people logged out when things looked bad. I remember people calling certain times fort'o clock, and then that got replaced by empire 'clock. These things go in cycles i think.

I think it was a slightly different game back then when i used to play then it is now it seems, it truly is more mellow which is a good thing for me at least. Just to note another difference, I do love that wand change. Some shifters would role up, power level to hero, use lists to find their wands, and it was either they had a/b/s all the time or delete. It feels more fair and balanced for everyone now. Also, after coming back I find myself leaning towards the classes that can pick and chose their fights a bit easier. That helps me.

Happens because people log out when things look bad. If you manage to survive 20 minutes without your item and a whole gaggle of people hunting you, someone else might show up, and if they do the same - maybe a third person shows, and suddenly you've got a fight on that maybe wouldn't have happened if you'd logged yourself out when your range was four enemies and no friends.

I always felt that it happens because the game allows players multiple characters that could join different cabals. This was just an assumption back then but it always felt as if when one player logged on, a bunch of them would soon log on out of nowhere and other cabals would become empty with exception of a few stragglers like myself.I am really only able to keep my interest on one character especially after I get to hero with someone. I sucked like a newb all those years back then and still do today so I'd be dead in no time at all.


Before i left though I found new appreciation and respect for nexus, and I regretted the mean things I had said about the cabal. It was a shame they weren't any around to help me during those hard times.

The reason why that happens is because there's no incentive to stick around. The typical people say "Be tough and maybe you'll get rewarded" and it really doesn't happen...nor do people who practice fair weather logins get punished...

And for what it's worth, I've had people get lucky and nab a kill on me and that doesn't stop them from coming right back at me (including using nightgaunt, etc). I don't let them kill me, so it's not a multi-kill...more like a multi-attempt . But yeah I mean that's how the game is, there's no reason not to do that because so many of the rewards in the game come from kill count. I'm not talking about edges either, I mean recognition from the staff, from your fellow cabal mates, those are all driven by repeatedly killing people.

>If the person gets killed repeatedly its more often then not
>their fault not the person killing them, right? It is their
>fault for not having enough knowledge to kill their enemy, or
>finding other places to level, for not knowing how to avoid
>the enemy better.

Hold up.

My examples basically boil down to: "If you're not going to even try to not just get killed again, then you forfeit the right to complain if you do."

In my mind gratuitous multikilling isn't great for the game, but the attitude that once someone kills you they can't do it again ever or you're going to tell a teacher is the worst kind of poison for the game. Culturally I think the game is a lot closer to the latter than the former at this point.

>My examples basically boil down to: "If you're not going to
>even try to not just get killed again, then you forfeit
>the right to complain if you do."

Fair enough. Basically the reason I was killed so much in the past and had my pies stolen was because I didn't try hard enough not to get killed by the same people over and over. You are certainly right, eventually i found that I could just stand still and not loose camo in the tree if I logged on and found we lost the fetish. I understand you can't do that anymore though. Still equally those newbies Mendos is talking about might not be trying hard enough to survive. At the very least they should know that hiding out in their guilds should keep them alive. That's fun right?

Now I know you aren't really saying this in that way but I can just imagine someone who is feeling really frustrated at continuously getting killed, sometimes to the same person reading your comments. It does really sound like you are saying it is their fault. And its true, to a point. However end of the day if someone with your knowledge wanted to kill someone with my knowledge as many times as they wanted, what could i possibly do other then to hide out my guild, my cabal and later some really remote location and hope you get bored and log off? It doesn't sound very fun for me, but again you know the game, and you know its audience.

Unfortunately though while you might think the situation is a perfect time to have some fun and rise to the occasion, for a lot of people its just a frustrating experience. This is sometimes made worse by how difficult it is to find groups to rank these days. You'll be lucky if they do anything other then close their client. If the game made some good impression on them, perhaps they'll take the time to post complaint or rant on your boards. In my case, I just said some short goodbyes and went to do other things after getting about two characters to hero and playing just one of them for any significant amount of time.

But hey, just four or five short years later I'm back to roll something new.


>In my mind gratuitous multikilling isn't great for the game,
>but the attitude that once someone kills you they can't do it
>again ever or you're going to tell a teacher is the worst kind
>of poison for the game. Culturally I think the game is a lot
>closer to the latter than the former at this point.

You are truly a text book example of a killer-type player.

While its true that culturally things are much more mellow and forgiving, from my point of view this game is still a potential haven for trolls. I mean if I'm the type of person that gets a hard-on by griefing people, there is nothing stopping me from rolling something, hunting relentless, killing and full looting people over and over. Even if the character's pk range increases to the point it becomes too challenging to grief, its just a simple task to reroll and repeat. Sure, I -might- not receive any rewards later on for this behavior like a title or lastname and I might receive a snarky comment on their pdf, but ultimately who gives a damn about that stuff when the tears of others are all the reward I would want or need. Luckily for them, this game will still reward them for driving people away automatically.

You understand that multikilling isn't great for the game yet this game is currently encouraging multi-killing through its rp and coded systems. Evil chaotic sees someone, kill him(fine), sees them again, kill them, and again and again. Of course as stated above the person should have learned his lesson and stayed holed up and bored in his guildhall. Still this doesn't seem very fun, the game could have some RP reasons why after killing someone their soul or life might not be worthy of your time for a while at least. Let us not forget that currently its not that uncommon to log on and find absolutely no one to group with which will only add to frustrations when attempting something. On top of that, this game has a lovely (and outdated but that's another thread) xp penalty when dying to mobs. It really does limit the places you might be able to go on your own if you want to learn. Depending on the class you play without some advanced knowledge at the very least least. It might not totally be someone fault that they happen to be in the same place, it might just be either attempt that or log out.

You mentioned sportmanship, but even in your case if you don't feel like someone has made enough effort in avoiding you (you with your vast knowledge) they deserve to die, repeatedly at that. I'm sure other people have other concept of sportsmanship, and then again there are people out there with absolutely none. At the end though they are subjective opinions which doesn't really help define what is and what isn't allowed in the game, rules to ensure it remains fun and competitive. On top of all that though, as stated repeatedly killing someone is still very much rewarded by the edge system in this game. Total pk count goes up, and as a bonus you get pk count for that range, very nice incentives to go multi-kill the only person I can touch in my range.

Again, luckily (for me) things are much more mellow and before Mendos' post here I didn't think there was stuff going on remotely close to what he is describing. I mean other then never getting my questions answered on this board, my experiences so far have been awesome, even when I do get killed. Just classy people all around. However, as I said before regardless of if things actually happen, just the potential for things to happen is often just as bad. My original idea might be too extreme towards my side of the camp for this mud but how about some middle ground. You should only get PK rewards for killing a person once per log in session. You can still kill them repeatedly, full loot them, make them lose con, and force them to hide until they log out bored out of their minds, but the system will not reward you again pk-wise until they decide to log out or a certain grace period has passed (30 mins to 1 hour). Maybe both parties get a message when that timer is up? This way you don't have any incentive to hunt that particular person down again without good reason. The exception would be if they enter your cabal after ghost period or if they attack you first. If you are worried about dying and losing con/ loot to them then by all means attack them first when you see them, that is more then enough incentive/reward after the first kill.

While it might mean less to do right now after you've killed someone once and you don't see anyone else on your range to hunt, it might mean more people to hunt in the future. Not to mention pk count needed for edge point can be changed to reflect the new challenges of finding people to hunt. Just a suggestion though, again I haven't encountered anything like what Mendos describes since I've returned at least.

Firstly, hiding out in your guild or cabal is far from the only option you have. If your opponent is a conjurer or an air form or other class with the ability to locate and attack you anywhere with a few paltry commands avoiding conflict can be difficult but if people are trying to hunt you down by foot, staying aware and keeping on the move will make you very hard to find or pin down. Even with an air form or a conjurer looking for you, guild sitting/cabal sitting is never your best option. Make an effort!

On one occasion when I logged on to a particularly brutal PK range, I stayed logged on and survived several hit and run retrieval attempts, an imm happened to be watching and I got a fairly nice reward for my tenacity and willingness to PLAY THE GAME.

Secondly. There's adversity in the game. That's what makes it so great! Carrion Fields isn't a place where you're never frustrated and everything's easy. It's harsh and unforgiving, which is why it can be so incredibly rewarding. You're often faced with unique challenges with take determination and ingenuity to overcome. I actually find this game presents me challenges which I don't get in any other context. There are plenty of games out there which offer players an unbroken stream of clear ways to progress at all times. Carrion Fields doesn't need to be that, it needs to be Carrion Fields. You're on your own out there, doing whatever it takes to survive.

Wow this is a long post.


>Fair enough. Basically the reason I was killed so much in the
>past and had my pies stolen was because I didn't try hard
>enough not to get killed by the same people over and over. You
>are certainly right, eventually i found that I could just
>stand still and not loose camo in the tree if I logged on and
>found we lost the fetish. I understand you can't do that
>anymore though. Still equally those newbies Mendos is talking
>about might not be trying hard enough to survive. At the very
>least they should know that hiding out in their guilds should
>keep them alive. That's fun right?

This is an issue of game knowledge largely. It is something that can be remedied, but (as Daev was saying below I believe), dumbing down the PK environment early on or extending PK protection doesn't help this too much. If you are getting abused a level 11, you are going to be even more abused at level 25.

We can remedy the game knowledge issue in part with greater learning and informational tools. At some point though, it is going to fall on the newbie to try things out themselves and make full use of whatever tools are provided.

>
>Now I know you aren't really saying this in that way but I can
>just imagine someone who is feeling really frustrated at
>continuously getting killed, sometimes to the same person
>reading your comments. It does really sound like you are
>saying it is their fault. And its true, to a point. However
>end of the day if someone with your knowledge wanted to kill
>someone with my knowledge as many times as they wanted, what
>could i possibly do other then to hide out my guild, my cabal
>and later some really remote location and hope you get bored
>and log off? It doesn't sound very fun for me, but again you
>know the game, and you know its audience.

I understand this frustration. There are a handful of things to do as a solo player. I tend to play a lot of the time as a solo player. Exploration, RP, and quests (some which are large) are all in the game to this regard. Once again though, this is an issue of game knowledge.

>
>Unfortunately though while you might think the situation is a
>perfect time to have some fun and rise to the occasion, for a
>lot of people its just a frustrating experience. This is
>sometimes made worse by how difficult it is to find groups to
>rank these days. You'll be lucky if they do anything other
>then close their client. If the game made some good impression
>on them, perhaps they'll take the time to post complaint or
>rant on your boards. In my case, I just said some short
>goodbyes and went to do other things after getting about two
>characters to hero and playing just one of them for any
>significant amount of time.

You're right, low numbers can impact new players. Which is why we are trying hard to get more than a handful of new players at once. We are having some limited success in this regard.


>But hey, just four or five short years later I'm back to roll
>something new.
>

Cool. Thanks for giving us a second shot. I hope you enjoy this run around more

>While its true that culturally things are much more mellow and
>forgiving, from my point of view this game is still a
>potential haven for trolls. I mean if I'm the type of person
>that gets a hard-on by griefing people, there is nothing
>stopping me from rolling something, hunting relentless,
>killing and full looting people over and over. Even if the
>character's pk range increases to the point it becomes too
>challenging to grief, its just a simple task to reroll and
>repeat. Sure, I -might- not receive any rewards later on for
>this behavior like a title or lastname and I might receive a
>snarky comment on their pdf, but ultimately who gives a damn
>about that stuff when the tears of others are all the reward I
>would want or need. Luckily for them, this game will still
>reward them for driving people away automatically.

See: Valg's point below regarding players. Unfortunately this has been an issue within CF for years, which is partly why it is important to learn to survive early on. We try to catch and police extreme circumstances of bad sportsmanship. Things are not as bad as they once were, by any stretch. But this is not black and white either and different players and staff have different opinions on what constitutes as griefing, or multi-killing (as Daev also pointed out above.)

>
>You understand that multikilling isn't great for the game yet
>this game is currently encouraging multi-killing through its
>rp and coded systems. Evil chaotic sees someone, kill
>him(fine), sees them again, kill them, and again and again. Of
>course as stated above the person should have learned his
>lesson and stayed holed up and bored in his guildhall. Still
>this doesn't seem very fun, the game could have some RP
>reasons why after killing someone their soul or life might not
>be worthy of your time for a while at least. Let us not forget
>that currently its not that uncommon to log on and find
>absolutely no one to group with which will only add to
>frustrations when attempting something. On top of that, this
>game has a lovely (and outdated but that's another thread) xp
>penalty when dying to mobs. It really does limit the places
>you might be able to go on your own if you want to learn.
>Depending on the class you play without some advanced
>knowledge at the very least least. It might not totally be
>someone fault that they happen to be in the same place, it
>might just be either attempt that or log out.

Our XP penalty system has been toned down a lot over the years. Really. You also neglect to mention that there are regular intermittent XP bonuses, and one sliding scale XP bonus for low numbers. If anything leveling up is easier than it has ever been historically when in a group. Outside of a group it is still tricky, but this is a numbers issue.

>
>You mentioned sportmanship, but even in your case if you don't
>feel like someone has made enough effort in avoiding you (you
>with your vast knowledge) they deserve to die, repeatedly at
>that. I'm sure other people have other concept of
>sportsmanship, and then again there are people out there with
>absolutely none. At the end though they are subjective
>opinions which doesn't really help define what is and what
>isn't allowed in the game, rules to ensure it remains fun and
>competitive. On top of all that though, as stated repeatedly
>killing someone is still very much rewarded by the edge system
>in this game. Total pk count goes up, and as a bonus you get
>pk count for that range, very nice incentives to go multi-kill
>the only person I can touch in my range.

Rewards skew fairly heavily to the role/roleplay and explore side. Edges is one of the few areas where PK is really rewarded in entirety.

>
>Again, luckily (for me) things are much more mellow and before
>Mendos' post here I didn't think there was stuff going on
>remotely close to what he is describing. I mean other then
>never getting my questions answered on this board, my
>experiences so far have been awesome, even when I do get
>killed. Just classy people all around. However, as I said
>before regardless of if things actually happen, just the
>potential for things to happen is often just as bad. My
>original idea might be too extreme towards my side of the camp
>for this mud but how about some middle ground. You should only
>get PK rewards for killing a person once per log in session.
>You can still kill them repeatedly, full loot them, make them
>lose con, and force them to hide until they log out bored out
>of their minds, but the system will not reward you again
>pk-wise until they decide to log out or a certain grace period
>has passed (30 mins to 1 hour). Maybe both parties get a
>message when that timer is up? This way you don't have any
>incentive to hunt that particular person down again without
>good reason. The exception would be if they enter your cabal
>after ghost period or if they attack you first. If you are
>worried about dying and losing con/ loot to them then by all
>means attack them first when you see them, that is more then
>enough incentive/reward after the first kill.
>
>While it might mean less to do right now after you've killed
>someone once and you don't see anyone else on your range to
>hunt, it might mean more people to hunt in the future. Not to
>mention pk count needed for edge point can be changed to
>reflect the new challenges of finding people to hunt. Just a
>suggestion though, again I haven't encountered anything like
>what Mendos describes since I've returned at least.

I was discussing this kind of thing with another Immortal the other day. The issue with any kind of physical PK-protection is that it is extremely open to abuse. In fact, much of the griefing behavior could indeed be exacerbated by use of timers and so on. This is really far more complicated than it seems. There is also the issue of fundamentally changing the game at its core, or dumbing it down to the point of a no-risk and totally boring environment.

I will personally be attempting to get some stuff set up to further remedy the steep learning curve in the future. Some will be compiled from existing sources, other stuff will be new. It is -very high- on my priority list after my area is complete, because I have been dragging my feet on that to handle the marketing side.

I hope you can at least appreciate that we are making efforts here. I don't think I have the time, or space to reel off all of the "newbie friendly" changes that have been made in the last decade, but believe me that things were much worse 10 years ago, and 20 years ago CF was a free-for-all.

Again i am personally having a lot of fun, and I have encountered the total opposite of what you described in your original post. I have no real complaints.

I am taking the time (last post took me an hour to write) to post these views in an argumentative stance mostly out of appreciation for the effort I've seen so far from you, the other imms and other players.

The fact of the matter is that I do understand what Daevryn is saying and for the most part I completely agree with him and with what you posted. However, at the same time I also remember the frustration that these points of view can sometimes bring. And I also know that the fear of getting trolled/griefed is not something that should be underestimate. It is something that really puts people off. I think it is important to keep those things in mind.

It is really unfortunately that even though I don't think there is any actual consistent trolling in this game that just its potential can put some people off. I know for a fact that the mudding friends i have on my aim list won't even bother with this type of game. And some of them play rp intensive games where on wrong turn can instantly permanently kill a character you've invested an entire RL year of your life in. That said, assurances aside, not sure there is really anything that can be done about this, not to mention as seen even within this thread alone there is a history of grievances.

Anyways, I'm really having fun, and would like see your marketing efforts succeed, hopefully my long winded posts gave you a bit of food for thought. But seriously, don't forget to advertise the explore areas and cool loot/rewards there, not just the pk aspects. You have some of the best written areas around as far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of people that would be attracted by that.

Respectfully, I still don't think you're following what I'm saying.

I think people who get killed should make decisions as though they can get killed again.

I'm not saying you need to have master evasive skills. I'm saying you have to at least try. If someone killed you and you were concerned they could kill you again -- would you just shrug and go back to getting XP in the same place, knowing your enemy is right there and knows exactly where you are? I wouldn't.

I also wouldn't spend my ghost period talking trash to my killer about how I'm going to get them back and full loot them soon and expect them not to roll over me again if they can.

People do these kinds of things essentially because they expect some kind of sportsmanship code to keep them safe, or, because they want to be able to come to the forums and complain about their killer more than they want to survive. I don't think it's good to encourage this. That's it.

I used to have strict rules with myself about multkilling. That if the guy does nothing to antagonise you, they don't get killed again until the next IRL day.

On a recent character, I found a group in an obvious ranking area, and wiped them out. An hour or so later IRL, I went back and they were still there, and I wiped them out again. I did feel like I'd maybe been a poor sport (that feeling went away when the same guys later ganged me and fulled me, having not taken a single item from any of them over numerous kills).

On the other hand, with a different character I found a ranking group and killed the only guy in range. Later on another one of the group got into range so I came back and they were all still there in the same area - I killed the one I hadn't killed yet, and the other one stuck around to die a second time. I got a lot of tells complaining about it, more tells insisting he wasn't complaining, and tells asking if I'd leave them alone now. I did in fact leave them alone, in the same obvious ranking area, but I do agree it's a lazy attitude and given the complaining I wouldn't fault anyone for going back for the third kill.

Borderline cases are when, for example you've just killed a guy and later on you see them doing their own thing somewhere you happen to be doing your own thing. You can't ignore them, you either have to leave the area yourself or attack - I usually yell a warning in these cases and if they don't scram, I'll attack again.

I do think that after the first time an opponent consents to a fight to the death, barring extenuating circumstances they should be left relatively well alone - relentlessly hunting the same player after you've already landed the kill is pretty much griefing and not gaming, but plenty of people don't and will bleed your con as much as possible until you log out. There is nothing to stop them doing so.

...but that's the one rank where you really have to go out of your way to be an ass to be really multi-killing.

####, I've had logins where I was outnumbered and underpowered and I died 4+ times. #### happens.

Now, pre-47, I think it's really poor form to kill someone more than once in a login unless they come after you or it's been 3+ hrs.

For all the misinfo about Jindicho multi-killing, I only killed 5 or 6 people more than once (and only 2 more than twice, and one of those full-sacced me after I killed them the first time when I died to a mob), and never in the same login.

I'm a newbie - not exactly a brand new player, but I consider myself new to the game.

This game has a crazy steep learning curve. I've heroed one character (a bard) and managed to learn some basics, like where the major towns are, how to get a return potion, etc. But overall I still don't know much.

I really want to get into the PK side of things, so I'm now playing a class that is more PK driven. Getting totally smashed, but it's fun.

I think my record is something like 2-30.

One thing that has helped me throughout the game is this mentality that you will die - ALOT. I've been killed by the same person multiple times, by the same NPC multiple times, by multiple people - multiple times.

I spend more time with negative XP then I do with positive XP. At first it made me feel like I couldn't progress, that the differences between vets and newbies was so large that it was impossible to improve.

Sometimes I still feel that way, but as I continue to play, I started to pick up on small things here and there.

What really helped me stick with the game is vets providing helpful information and tips - where to go to get gear, how to avoid getting killed, what to do when fighting, etc. Especially after destroying me in a PK situation.

As a newbie, I like to know there is something I could have done better, rather than feel like I had no chance. It means I can improve.

I do wish that there was an easier way for new players like myself to learn the game faster or get more feedback from the game. For example, I'm playing a necro to get more exposed to PK. I've tried sleeping other players and sometimes it will land and sometimes it won't.

It isn't really clear why the spell works or it doesn't - is it because my enemy is resistant to sleep? Is it because they have higher int? Or maybe my spell is just failing? Or maybe the spell is supposed to fail 50% of the time? Or maybe my enemy was just in a fight? That's a ton of guesswork that I don't really have a clear way of figuring out.

I wish the game would help guide me more. I'm going to die anyways, but I'd like to know why I died so I can modify my playing in the future.

Player mentors would be awesome. If I could see how a player plays my particular class, it would be extremely helpful. Right now, most of my interaction with other players is usually grouped into three things: roleplay, killing npcs, getting killed in PK. It's hard to learn the PK side of things (which seems like a very important part of CF).

All that said, this game is amazing.

The staff has done a great job creating a world that is worth enjoying and spending time in. The players make it dynamic and extremely challenging.

Cheers to everyone.

I can help you via skype or mirc. Its too slow to ask million things on forum and wait for the answer.

As for your current char, bro, you are the glass cannon till your wands, and its true in 99% of pk situations. Don't try to sleep warriors with lagging specs without aura, stone skin and something else on you. Yes, try to learn on EASY targets. Who can't lag you or kill you.

Don't try to stay and fight even with easy targets, without wands in 99% situations you will just die. Also, try to bring allies to kill your enemies. But again, don't fight villagers and so on. Its not a good idea to learn pk in cabal. You will die in raids, defendes alot.

PS: You will fail sleep on elves, drows, high int chars, don't even try to sleep them.

PSS: And, try to post your logs and ask peoples what you did wrong. They will help.

PSSS: Heh, I am trying to relearn some things in CF since my return.And I have billion questions. But nobody want to answer me!

There are tons and tons of searchable posts for how to play a necro, with a variety of tactics that different people prefer too.

I think this idea of player mentors would be freaking awesome.

Maybe give them some perks for being recruited in a program like this and a special ooc channel to share with their designated "student".

Or if you wouldn't trust the players or don't want to give even more rewards then maybe try to recruit some hero imms that can give pointers of a certain class they have experience with?.

Now that I think about it, It would be really cool if you could only use the new ooc connection between student/mentor at the inn of the eternal star.

If you don't like that because it collides with the current use of the newbie channel, another idea would be to implement actual "squires" in the cabals.

That would be particularly awesome because you would have more of a rp reason to help them and get them under your wing, you could get a squire (read newbie interested in your cabal) assigned to you to help him about the game and the philosophy of your cabal. If he evolves favorably he even gets into the cabal and has a great time.

Right now squiring in the fortress right now or being an applicant to the village, only means that you have to prove yourself. You could evolve that into actual mentoring for newbies and allow them to partake in the fun of the cabal wars as they learn.

Thoughts?

At least among some players. This is definitely an interesting idea but it would need to be discussed and hashed out properly to minimize unintended consequences for other players and to not pollute the immersion of the RP environment.

I think most of the staff would rather start out any kind of system small and work out the kinks before going all out with potentially major consequences.

It is an interesting idea though. Mentoring, and/or an (in game?) support network is ideal for newbies. No question. But how that takes shape in reality is probably a contentious issue for now. Some kind of initial pilot group, or temporary set up (single day event) might be ideal in order to troubleshoot for a larger scale drive.

Either way this is a lot of work and getting systems in order for it will take a fair amount of time, energy and thought.

So... a long long time ago in a galax... ah, never mind.

Back in the day, we had a larger playerbase and more varied cabal structure. We did kind of have a mentoring program in place in these more newbie friendly cabals? Dawn back in the day used to be the place everyone started playing CF right? (Well, dawn and Herald?). Why not consider moving one of the easier more straight-forward cabals into that more newbie friendly mold?

We have probably communicated in the game at some point, but if not, welcome to the Fields. My memory is not good enough to keep track of all the infrequent players who come back to check us out and the newbies, however there are several new players in game right now.

You might want to consider forming some kind of "new player guild", or some variant. It would certainly help to take the edge off.

If that is a route you would like to go down, please respond here and I will raise this issue with the staff. We might be able to provide a little support to help you guys find one another and tackle the game together.

Otherwise I am certain you can try to do so yourself through your own means.

Keep in mind, OOC communication within the game is still very much frowned on as it detracts from the fantasy environment.

However the forums are always there for introductions. Also, keep in mind for the future that when posting on forums with an active character can be detrimental to a character. It is good to keep a public OOC/IC divide, just in case.

Thanks for the welcome!

I'd be interested in forming a "new player guild" but I'm not sure what that would exactly entail. Please tell me what I would need to do.

One good thing to do to improve is to log like crazy.

When your session is done, look back on your fights. Start by thinking about what you could have done differently or better, and paying attention to what your opponent did that seemed to work.

If nothing obvious jumps out at you (and maybe even if it does), post your log on one of the log board. Lots of people, myself included, will be interested to offer suggestions.

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been posting my logs on the other log board and everyone has been really helpful.

Going back and reading through my own logs to insert comments also helps.

That would allow them to see the newbie flag when someone answers yes at creation. I think most Heralds would welcome the chance to usher in new players. I know you are concerned about someone abusing the ability to see the new meat for personal gain, but those type of players generally go for a cabal that gives them power, Herald doesn't, so it might be safe. Just an idea.

New players to CF should just accept that they need to sink 100-200-300
whatever hours into the game in order to get to an acceptable standard,
and that just to survive. So the trick for me was to view these hours as
necessary work that will pay dividends in the long run.

Abolish your ego, learn to enjoy dying and try to extract the maximum of information that you can during that period, initially focusing on geography and running around the mud/staying alive then progressing to regearing and PK.

Unfortunately a lot of newbies can't do that and come to this game with
high expectations. They get demoralized when they get pummeled into the dirt
since they don't have the right frame of mind.

Finally, you don't really mentors or extra-newbie-friendly guides and such.
All the information is out there, if you're willing to spend some time reviewing it.
The logs at qhcf.net alone can teach you a tremendous amount about the game,
without even playing!!

I tend to feel your pain when it comes to the learning curve.

There's a few things that would help (I believe).

1) Less limited gear pre-51. It's not really that you need to go get new wristwear when you die that's a problem, it's that there's no up to date list anywhere of what gear exists where and that problem is exacerbated by having to check 5 places because item limits are capped.

2) An item search (admin provided) for items not inside area explores. This shouldn't be hard to do and would dramatically lower the learning curve.

3) Lowered 'gear gap' pre-51. I'm actually in preference to a lowered gear gap *all around*. I'd like to see high end gear be 10-15% better than unlimited gear, instead of the current 400-500% better in most cases. It'd be nice to not totally get roflstomped with an unlimited vendored gear set.

4) Less farming. I think that warriors for instance should get a detect invis skill that just has a cooldown longer than it's activation timer. Rather than farming detect invis potions or farming gold to buy detect invis potions, you could have it up say, 33% of the time without farming at all.

Anyway, those are my suggestions.

When someone rolls a character and selects that they are new to the MUD; have some way of OTHER people being able to identify this. Their name on the 'who' doesn't need to be in a different colour or anything, maybe something subtle that us veterans can use like 'who firsttimer' so we can go easy on them and go out of our usual way to help them.

I know what you're thinking. Veterans may abuse this to get help from people. But the pros outweigh the cons. Imagine a first time player getting lost doing loops around the park in Galadon and then getting approached and helped by several veterans. Lasting impression I'd say.

If I am bored; which I am SEVERAL times each session, I'd look for a new player to go teach. And on a scale of 0 to Nepenthe, I'd be at least an 8 in knowledge.

>I know what you're thinking. Veterans may abuse this to get
>help from people. But the pros outweigh the cons. Imagine a
>first time player getting lost doing loops around the park in
>Galadon and then getting approached and helped by several
>veterans. Lasting impression I'd say.

Actually, it's more like a handful of idiots will abuse this to PK the low hanging fruit.

For the most part our players are fantastic and sporting, but sometimes a small handful of them really disappoint too.

NT

I have tried hard to not be an a*s over the years, but when you are playing a imperials or a hard ass evil it can get hard.

With that being said we all need to try to do better.

For those of us that want this game to live and thrive, it is a must.

I will do whatever it takes and you will see changes from me in helping.

Just let us the veteran players know if someone like me goes to far the other way as I am sure my fire giant anti-paladin should only go so far helping an elf newbie.

Thanks for this post.

Polmier

And thank you for your contributions to the game over the years. CF needs its solid players just as much as the contributors in the staff.

change pk stats away from simple count to a weighted count for pbf

remove the pk edge for both the 11-20 and 21-30 range, or whatever that range is. but if you're going to keep it, make it use the weighted count.

keep encouraging both newbies and veterans that help newbies.

- change pk stats away from simple count to a weighted count for pbf

I'd like to see something like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill

- keep encouraging both newbies and veterans that help newbies.

There is an incentive right now to rank alone from 1-25. This is done so your important skills are maxed or near at 25. The result is that when someone asks me to group sub 25 I generally decline.

CF could make a 180 from this by making grouping at those ranks advantageous.
- Remove the edge points for PKing up to 25 and replace them with edge points for leveling in a group.
- Large learning bonuses for groups and passive learning through groupmates. If your groupmate uses a skill you possess you have a chance to learn that skill.

Edge points for sub-25 PK need to go away, certainly. Any other solution involves sociopathic players stocking up on a sack of invis potions and spamming bash. There are a couple of active orcs and assassins right now doing it once every other day and then farming free invis casts off lowbies to continue to do the same to save money and I thought about attempting it myself until I realized there is no steady stream of targets to make it worth the timesink.

But there needs to be an actual tangible skill learning bonus for being in a group and it needs to be fairly massive. Skill learn just doesn't cut it precisely because of the rather large chance skill learn tells you to eff off and tosses the points in a weapon skill or pen or meditation. But if you tweaked skill learn to work better if you were grouped at the time you levelled it would be much different. The costs of people levelling things like riposte or cheap shot this way to get artificially inflated skill percentages at the earliest possible level to compete for edge points would be negated if you nix pre-30 edge points.

I've been around since 2008, so to a lot of people I'm probably not a vet yet since it seems like vets are people that played in the 90's early 2000's, but this post touches a nerve with me.

This post makes me want to play again to help newbies. But the behavior cited in your post that I'll inevitably run across in the game remind me of how much annoyance I would end up getting from that small group of players who play CF in that fashion.

While I appreciate the PK aspect of CF, the focus has gone too far towards it away from the RP side in recent years for some players. RP used to be more than a thin veil for reasons to PK, it used to be an end onto itself. I'm not so sure that depth of RP is as prevalent, but that's on the players not bringing that same depth of character to the table anymore. And that's because the focus is on the competitive aspect of the game more than anything now. Twist posting the edge point mechanics for PK with out a doubt helped foster some of the negative behavior players engage in to farm edge points to the point I'd argue they should be altered or removed pre 25 at a minimum. Hell extend newbie protection to 20 instead of 10. I'm not going to die via PK in those ten ranks 99% of the time, but I know newbies sure will. Repeatedly.

Players bitched about RP granting PK rewards (edges and quest forms blah blah blah) and how that confers such a huge advantage. Yeah, maybe a role contest shouldn't get you a quest form, maybe a role contest winner gets the opportunity to earn it. I.e. they get snooped by the imm staff for a week or two, and if his RP merits it (he actually is playing that role) he gets some nice reward like that. And if he doesn't maintain it, you take it away. Fighting an Ice drake/nightmare would be a hell of a lot more interesting than fighting lion/eagle for the 90th time. But if someone had that there would be insane bitching by the playerbase, and for what? It just shows what those people ultimately care about is nothing more than their beloved PK stats and how they compare to those of other players. Of course they'll say it is a game balance issue) That's not anything that helps CF. Maybe remove PK numbers from PBFs so people don't get that ego stroke on a PBF, and have less reason to care. I could care less if I age die going 200-0 or 0-200, but I'm probably a minority there. This doesn't mean you play and never avoid dying or don't try to survive/win fights, what it means is the result of the char should be more than a PK record when they die.

I always thought RP should be the most actively encouraged facet of the game in CF. That's how you keep new players, you let them truly see CF for what it is capable of being. The Hack & Slash aspect is great, but hack & slash with no story becomes stale and boring real quick. There are millions of hack & slashes out there, so you need more than just that aspect to keep a player coming back to the game. (Throw in that learning the CF hack & slash in PVP is brutal and hard) CF can not just act as an arena for people to treat like any other multi player PVP game. Many of that genre's players want quicker return on their investment than CF can ultimately offer, if you even can get them in the door.

So there has to be something to engender those that do come to CF to this game, to make them want to keep playing and learn it. And I'm pretty sure it's not going to be the PK aspect of it by itself. Maybe veterans love the PK system, because they already know it and who doesn't like to "win"? But as a newbie, it's frustrating as all hell to learn, and that's not because of what there is to learn, (I'd wager generally people playing MUDs are smart enough to learn the game) but far more because of the environment in which they are forced to learn it. If that's really all CF has to offer, a difficult to learn PK system in a realm populated by 50% of true veteran players that already know it and kill you repeatedly with you able to do nothing to stop it, how many new player are going to stick it out? Marketing gets them in the door, but the game has to be what retains them. And if the game shifts more towards PK focus from RP, I'm not so sure it can do that effectively enough to keep a player here long enough to learn and appreciate the PK side of this game.

It takes a small % of griefer types to poison PVP environments, because one encounter with them can ruin all the positives a player encounters to that point. It only takes one bad experience to make someone walk away from a game like this where there is a decent investment required to get even to the middle skill tier. However, anyone can enjoy RP without a great deal of knowledge about PK mechanics. I'm not saying make the game easier to play or simpler, but the focus should be to make the environment better in which to learn the PK side of the game, all the while letting those new players consistently engage in the RP side where they can still enjoy themselves in spite of the repeated PKs they inevitably endure. And yes, that's on players more so than Imms, because they can't police everyone, so we have to self monitor, and in a far more meaningful way than most of us probably do, myself included.

Anyone who wants a lesson on how to play a CF mortal should ask Thror or Twist. Great RP, Great PK (maybe moreso for Twist) and a great attitude, both with good things and bad. Mainly because they have a great understanding of sportsmanship in a competitive environment, and they can appreciate the fun stick of the other player just as much as their own when they are playing. And that's a skill even a lot of the most veteran players don't always have or use.

Not intending to respond to this all, but role contests no longer provide quest forms or legacies.

The point was that they could if people didn't all bitch about PK impacts of every little thing that is done. If Imms read a great role, and spend the time to see if that guy is playing the role, then sure, let it lead to some nice reward down the road.

By making it a consistent RP basis for rewards that impact PK, the environment could become a better place for the existence of that RP. It fosters great PK'ers to engage more in that RP instead of go through the motions just enough to not get in trouble.
You eliminate PK relevant rewards for RP things, well, the PK'ers have less reason to engage in RP cause it's conferring no tangible PK benefit which is all they care about.

That sounds like what already happens? You can still get a quest form, its just not from writing a role. It is from living your RP.

Role add = excuse to act anyway you want and not rp out your character, because it is all written down already.

It's not like writing a role gives you roleplay immunity. It just gives you a chance to try to frame your actions.

I'm the first to comment or hold back rewards or even still punish if I feel like a role is written just to justify being an asshole, or the role as written and played is great except it doesn't actually fit your alignment/cabal/etc.

frustrations starting out as a new player. I remember them well.

I would like to get enough new players around to build a newbie community which, for the most part, can focus on RP and dabble in PK. Much like the Inn of the Eternal Star used to be when it was busier.

You can find one of several threads we started below where we have tried to appeal to other MUD players who might like what CF has to offer. We are trying to attract an eclectic mix of players to keep CF a well-rounded game.

http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/advertising-players/7201-carrion-fields-goes-wild-honor-chaos-combat.html

The story is there to appeal to people's creative sides, but the recent review (posted on Facebook) has helped bring in some PK types too.

I'll sorta repeat my post from a couple of days ago now that you've confirmed what I was asking.

If there are rewards for multikilling newbies, people are going to keep multikilling newbies.

I wrote that post based on frustrations I had heard from obvious newb groupmates who kept getting killed.

While I'm all for picking low hanging fruit, I tend to leave the obvious new guys alone.

Again I'll suggest removing any PK edge points received for pking pre level 25.

Take away the mechanical advantage of this trend and it will go away.

NT

One can make a decent case for doing more, but this is the easiest way to correct the behavior.

I am sure this is food for thought for the code team. I do agree people respond to incentives, as you have suggested.

It is tricky to maintain CF's identity with PK-related changes at times, and we don't want to tone it down too much for the veterans. The coders are, for the most part, insanely busy juggling multiple long and short term projects too. But the feedback here always gets read and considered. Probably to a greater extent than most people realize.

1) The incentive for PKs in the low-level band is very, very small. Getting as much of a bonus as you can for it doesn't add up to even, say, Strong Back.

2) I think the game already has enough incentives to power towards hero. It's what most people do most of the time.

3) People always seem to want to extend newbie PK immunity or try to discourage low-level PK for love of the newbies; I don't think this is helpful. It just kicks the can down the road. If I had my druthers PK probably would still start at 10K XP.

>1) The incentive for PKs in the low-level band is very, very
>small. Getting as much of a bonus as you can for it doesn't
>add up to even, say, Strong Back.

Doesn't matter if the reward is 1hp. People will do bad things to get it AND complain that they have to "jump through hoops" to be competitive. Our particular brand of power gamers have especially bad OCD.

>2) I think the game already has enough incentives to power
>towards hero. It's what most people do most of the time.

I agree. X number of PKs before level X is not the right way to do it. Encourages multi-killing.

>3) People always seem to want to extend newbie PK immunity or
>try to discourage low-level PK for love of the newbies; I
>don't think this is helpful. It just kicks the can down the
>road. If I had my druthers PK probably would still start at
>10K XP.

I agree.

Doesn't matter if the reward is 1hp. People will do bad things to get it AND complain that they have to "jump through hoops" to be competitive. Our particular brand of power gamers have especially bad OCD.

The question is, do you believe them? I don't in most cases.

There's no mechanical reward for talking trash endlessly, throwing tantrums when something doesn't go their way, etc. And the Venn diagram between these actions and the powergamers you're discussing has massive overlap. All of these behaviors pre-date Edge points.

I tend to see the Edge points angle as an excuse for things they want to do but would prefer not to admit to. If we took the Edge Points away they'd complain currency is hard to come by and so they just have to keep checking newbies' pockets for coppers, or that the newbie "disrespected" them in some trivial way.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You slay me.

I think you're due for a good trolling. Don't think I've ever really tweaked your nipple. Now I just need to wait a couple years before I do so you forget this post.

I'll be watching.

You DID just make currency a little harder to come by, didn't you? I mean, people are complaining about it on QHCF, so it must be noticeable.

Don't go overboard on the whole realism thing because you will forfeit the fun factor in doing so.

Now people seem to sort of prefer them to the old system. People need to give these changes a little time to experience before they draw conclusions.

This changes gold gathering from a routine task, to a non-routine task. Which means many people will be fine. There are a lot of different avenues to make gold. Guys running scripts while afk, or botting probably will not.

But at least let the system pan out a little before it is judged?

I don't like any of the wand systems, including the current iteration.

I don't see any world where I prefer a system of having to spend more time farming gold because I don't have any cabal powers until I do so.

It's not the lack of currency to me that's the problem, it's the impact it has on the status quo where things weren't necessarily broken before.

.

You don't need to look at PK to understand how edge points have changed the way the game is played. Look at "exam keyword" spam as a control if you want. There's no question that at least some people feel obligated to get X kills before Y level.

That doesn't mean jerks don't exist but it's not shocking that people do things they are rewarded for doing.

The staff has been generally pretty hands off when it comes to how other players are treated. Some characters who are "really trash talky evil" are applauded for being that way. There aren't uniform in game guidelines about it.

It'd probably help to at least start there or maybe take a more active role in interceding (in a benevolent to both parties fashion) for at least a short while.

1) The incentive for PKs in the low-level band is very, very small. Getting as much of a bonus as you can for it doesn't add up to even, say, Strong Back.

-------------

Players don't really know that offhand because all the numbers are hidden from view (edge cost, points accumulated, etc). They just know "killing this guy more times means I will get more points".

We don't have a 'strong market theory' equivalent in terms of PK relating to edge points . People are not efficient.

>1) The incentive for PKs in the low-level band is very, very
>small. Getting as much of a bonus as you can for it doesn't
>add up to even, say, Strong Back.
>
>2) I think the game already has enough incentives to power
>towards hero. It's what most people do most of the time.
>
>3) People always seem to want to extend newbie PK immunity or
>try to discourage low-level PK for love of the newbies; I
>don't think this is helpful. It just kicks the can down the
>road. If I had my druthers PK probably would still start at
>10K XP.


I was actually thinking of giving newbie flagged players a slightly longer ghost timer, where the difference phased out by level 25. The goal being to give the newer players a better shot at regearing. Nothing dramatic (maybe an extra minute to start).

Does this mean that Imms won't be condoning and rewarding full sac'ing like they used to? 2500 Imm exp for killing/sac'ing my necro.

Sat Sep 16 22:14:14 2006 by 'An Immortal' at level 34 (44 hrs):
An Immortal added 2500 exp for: Nice kill on a necro that has been near unbeatable.

Sat Sep 16 22:18:20 2006 by 'Lyristeon' at level 34 (44 hrs):
He blamed me for the necromancer's gear disappearing after he died. Very nice. The necro then deleted.


Edit: Yes I am bitter. I agree with your original post. It is a shame that it even needed to be posted though.

Many aspects of being an immortal are, unfortunately subjective, so I cannot promise you that a staff member will not act in this way again. In my personal opinion it would be less than ideal for this type of reward to be meted out, but my opinion is one of many.

Since the staff are from all different walks of life, and have their interests rooted in different aspects of the game they reward in different ways. Some are more hard-nosed about some aspects of PK, having learned the game and thrived during the early '90s days (ie: The Wild West.)

Having said that, this is eight years ago and I am personally sorry as both a CF player, and a part of the staff that the experience was upsetting enough to have stuck with you for so long. I don't know if that apology is sufficient for you, but it's all I can offer. I suppose something like this might leave a bad taste in my mouth too, depending on how it went down.

Much in the way as a staff member might not realize how their actions are affecting you as a player- such as rewarding an enemy for a kill even though their lack of sportsmanship probably should have negated it, the reverse is also true. Sometimes players don't realize how much time and effort can be plowed into things like code changes, or advertizing, marketing, or area creation. A seemingly insignificant act like scolding a new player, or multikilling them can very easily undo hours of work for us. It cuts both ways unfortunately and that is why we felt the need to make this known by post. Chances are that players didn't even consider things from another perspective.

The crux of this message isn't about highlighting past grievances, or staff errors (though undoubtedly some have been made over the years), it is about addressing the present and taking this game into the future. I hope you can at least appreciate that sentiment if you still play CF?

That's all great stuff, and I applaud this message in general.

I just can't help but see this like having the junior lab assistant give a PSA to lab rats before dumping them into the maze for the day.

Sorry for the crude analogy.

I realize the PSA is signed "The CF Staff", but as a rat I have to consider the actual source.

It's unsettling that you would even entertain that I/we would distill a member of the community down to "lab rat" status. Nobody is twisting your arm to play the game. You don't owe us your time, it is volunteered if you believe that CF is worth playing.

Secondly, while this is signed "The CF Staff", this is largely a personal matter having invested many hours of my own time into attracting existing MUD players to CF and having see a handful of them be driven off over spats on newbie (of all things.)

I don't particularly like marketing. I don't particularly like marketers in a professional capacity. I do think CF needs more players so I volunteered some time as a player when Big Z left to try and help the staff out. I do love this community and the fact that this game has existed, completely free, for over two decades.

I am not a "PR guy", or the local Soviet propaganda officer, this is me personally attempting to reach out to the community to ask for support moving forward. There is more marketing stuff planned, time permitting, but why bother blowing through a few hundred hours getting those plans into place if the community is intent on self-destruction, or if several players want to sabotage it all?

...and therefore, it's natural to assume that you may not make actual tangible decisions regarding actual gameplay/rules violations.

Perhaps his analogy was off, but it's akin to asking a HeroIMM about a buggy character and expecting the HeroIMM to fix everything (which is on the player's behalf). We (as a playerbase) naturally tend to look towards IMPs for general rules changes/etc.

FWIW I think you're doing a great job and your forum persona is a welcome presence here. I ran into a total newbie the other day (actually like 5 weeks ago...been strapped for time) and I tried to RP with him since I was evil and he was good and he was asking me to "group up and gain levels". I offered some suitably evil replies (including telling him to "train" in an area he could probably rank solo - past forest of nowhere - and tried to mention other good-aligned characters he could have asked) and did my best to help the guy out.

Yeah. I saw that upon re-reading the post an Valg's reply (up late/early).

Unlike many other things such as Code Changes, quests and so on which can really require a heavy amount of work from the senior staff and writers, marketing is one of those areas where a lot can still be even as a relatively low-end guy. Sometimes it really is as simple as a forum post elsewhere to get the word out. Hence why I have been working with a lot of the staff to try and boost efforts.

Good job on the newbie though, I know we've had a handful of them lately. There are a bunch of people who have physically assisted newbies, which I think is great.

Mendos authored it, but he ran it by the staff as a whole and incorporated feedback from others. He leads a lot of our marketing efforts, and it's under his name because it's his creation

It's like a new area. The 'areas' command lists one author, but it had significant contributions from six or more staff, including an Implementor.

I just can't help but see this like having the junior lab
assistant give a PSA to lab rats before dumping them into the maze for the day. Sorry for the crude analogy. I realize the PSA is signed "The CF Staff", but as a rat I have to consider the actual source.

Posting to refer to him as a "junior lab assistant" and questioning its authenticity is a little touch of what what he's talking about, however.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

...than you claim vargal is being to Mendos.

I love what you do for CF behind the scenes, but like Lyristeon, your forum persona sucks. Please stop posting drivel like this.

RE: I'll issue you a "bucket challenge"...you don't post antagonistic stuff on these boards, and I'll just straight not post here unless it's on the newbie forum. Deal?

nt

The perils of forum posting

Edit: What Valg said is true though. A senior staff member witnessed several events and pulled the trigger on announcing something. I offered to post seeing as I am invested more into the newbies than most. Then Valg and some others gave feedback on my post before it went live because we wanted to minimize patronizing and/or authoritarian overtones.

Pretty much everything in CF is collaborative in one way or another.

I referred to myself as a rat, so I don't see how I meant it to be really demeaning to make Mendos the lab assistant. The fact that this is somehow assumed to be an attack on Mendos is really weird. It's an analogy, and less veteran players than me (I'm pretty newb in CFs world with less than a decade here) are probably going to be more conversational and not less.

In any case, the point was that there is a huge difference between a staff initiative and someones personal perogative.

Thanks for confirming he's got back up.

Everything that is a staff initiative ultimately starts as personal initiative.

All of the staff have their own stuff that they want to achieve, but ultimately if you are not willing to do the heavy lifting on something, why would someone else do it for you?

Also in fairness to Valg, I did (mis)read your post as semi-hostile. I see what you're saying now though. There have also been a lot of briefly lived marketing drives and discussion over the years so it is is probably healthy to treat our new marketing attempts with a measure of skepticism until it is in full swing.

No promises, but we'll try to make some ideas reality this time if time and circumstance permits.

I've been here this long and I'm still trying to help.

I just hope we can break down the underlaying cynicism which caused you both to think I was being hostile.

Yeah, I've dealt with those people. They're obnoxious and I can see why you don't want to deal with them and how it would be very easy to become cynical.

http://youtu.be/HSS8tiy9Y3U

I've been there myself. I hope we can all laugh about it over that Clerks clip.

Rewards (not massive) for helping or finding a rationale to spare newbs when you can obviously kill them?

For example, say my current char has killed almost all the other tough chars, and is dominant. The odds of me getting a reward for not killing Fred the newbie despite him being an enemy, when I've just been told where he is, are vanishingly small. If you see me pass up this chance then a little imm exp would be nice. Instead I've had negative comments like "never seen a char so scared to gank" which is ridiculous when you have more solo kills than most chars ever get and they include all the strong enemies with no multi kills.

I've not multikilled anyone but I think imm exp for spread out kills is good for the game. I would suggest that chars that died in the last 3 hours of game time (at character level) are highlighted on the who list and don't contribute to the count that helps with edge points.

The "interesting idea that would require a lot of thought, discussion, time and an IMP/Coder to champion it" category.

And we have played morts with and against each other in the past decades. I am well aware of your ability to solo kill

I'd much rather have xp given for eating a full loot without whining or bitching than for fulling someone.

There are a good few players who have been actively helping and assisting newer players also. So thank you to those members in particular.

We do try to reward this behavior whenever possible, if we catch it, but the effort is always appreciated.

Edit: And to clarify on newbie PK, we do not expect anyone to be avoiding new players as this ultimately is a Hack'n'slash style MUD and is competitive.

However, please be mindful of ruining someone's session by actively multi-killing them. Competition is stiff amongst text-based games right now and we would hate for a potentially solid future player to give up on our game before they have given it a chance because their opponent wants to get an additional edge or two.

But it seems to be having a resurgence. I wonder if one or two of these types of players came back from a long hiatus, or if it's gone on all along.

I worry that as long as rewards/edge points are given for numbers of PK wins, this will always be a problem. Just to clarify, I don't necessarily think these rewards should be removed. PK is part of the game and it's a big reason a lot of vets stick around since the challenges of RP typically don't get the blood rushing.

Are there are any ideas being considered for a coded protection for recently killed players? The ghost feature serves this purpose on a very temporary basis, but I'm thinking something longer-term that's only protection against the previous killer (not everyone else).

nt

Just because it has been around since the beginning does not necessarily impart it with some intrinsic value, just longevity.

made it seem like it was a new thing.

It seemed to drop off for a long while, then started up again.

If you are going to reward people for lowbie pk. They will do it.

The incentive to kill someone to reach the goal to maximize their edge points (15 pk's?) will always be greater than their incentive NOT to kill someone.

Answer: Remove edge points for pk's sub 30, and just grant those max edge points at level 30?