I think I have a much simpler explanation for what's wrong with this game lately, here is my opinion. In the spirit of Batman, I will be making this post extraordinarily long because maybe then he'll notice me and be like "hey bb, can I park my batmobile up in here"

But if you want the short version: "this community is now full of pussies." And you can go home with that. If not, I caution you, as you proceed at risk of acting offended.

From my experience this game is less fun these days for an extremely basic reason: lack of players. There are additionally certain player behaviors that contribute to it, but with enough players there would be enough diversity of attitude for it to be negligible.

Personally I play for a PK environment with at least a light requirement for roleplay that involves a theme I am really fond of (ORCORCORC). There isn't a lot of consistent pk to be done these days though, and the community that's left to share the experience with just isn't very fun for me anymore. Frankly, I have almost no respect for those left active at least on the forums. Most of the people who were fun and interesting, and engaged other people to be fun and interesting are gone, many just are so disgusted with the overall spirit of the community that they just don't want to participate anymore.

The game format is extremely fun. It offers a setup and experience that fulfills a certain niche of interest that no other game can, not even other MUDS. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but that is part of why it's good. It, by nature, does not try to be anyone's anything, it tries to be what it is, and what it is happens to be good. It does not need to be changed.

Dumbing it down for the lowest common durnominator will not fix it, because that does not address the issue. I don't know about you, but I want to play CF, not a different game that borrowed the name. It will not fix it, but it will change it forever and prevent it from filling its valuable niche. It will really ruin it I think. This game's strongest point is that it offers an experience you cannot get anywhere else. Similar to how Dwarf Fortress has a huge and loyal following despite its extremely steep learning curve and absolute lack of graphics or any kind of newbie friendliness. Dwarf Fortress, like CF, is just a game that offers a fulfilling experience that cannot be gotten from another source.


This game is arguably a lot more confusing and less newbie friendly than CF. This game looks like digital macaroni art. This game is solo, OFFLINE ONLY. This game has more players than CF. Graphics and friendliness are not an issue.

I would play this game again if there were more players once more. I would not ever play this game if it destroyed its true essence just to pander to the interests of the casual mobile phone type of player.

I do not think this game needs to be changed structurally. CraftedD raises a very good point I want to mention here, that there are enough people out there who can enjoy this game, that the idea that their isn't or that they are impossibly inaccessible is silly. I think the people who are saying this game isn't able to keep up with the next generations are selling it short. Dark souls 2 game out recently. I have some 250 hours in it already. I am enjoying the #### out of it. But some part of me wishes I still had people I wanted to play CF with, because it does something DS2 doesn't. It's more replayable too. With the right people, and the standard isn't huge there, CF is a better game than Dark Souls 2. It's a better design, particularly at what it's actually good at. Being a phone app or a chat room is not what this game is good at.

With all of that said, I think those that really ever understood why this game is so enjoyable in the first place and what made it so good will probably at least understand where I'm coming from when I say that I don't think this game being 'behind the times' truly addresses the root cause of our player retention issues.

And here is where I start being a cock.

I believe the root problem is that the community culture has simply become no fun. I think that's because all that's left is mostly a few circles of friends, sadly the type dominated mainly by those who just want to hear buddies voice the same stances.. those who shun conflict, the type who do not have it in them to remain forward moving in a situation of disharmony, and thus seek to disengage in it wherever possible, most usually by banding together to whine about the dissenting voices until those voices are removed. It's something I've seen a lot of on all sides. It comes from a lack of respect. The community is very small, does not respect each other, and collectively does not respect itself. It's very unhealthy.

And by respect I don't mean "being nice" to people. I mean being fair and respecting all that they deserve to do as equally as you do for yourself and your buddies. Misinterpret this to mean "you can't tell him he's a retard", and you've made no progress.

This community used to be a place that encouraged and was full of conflict (especially on qhcf). Loads of it. It was an interesting and peculiarly fun place to be. What was at a glance acidic was actually a rewarding experience. What I think many here don't understand is that interpersonal conflict isn't always a bad thing. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the entire game is structured to promote conflict, conflicting morality (align), dogma (ethos), and wishes (lewt). This environment invariably ends in almost everyone killing each other, saccing newbie breadz and doing their best to hoard sexy loot. I will use an in game example of how an open state of enmity can be a strong pull towards participation.

I find a lot of what drives some players is an honest hatred to something in the game. Heh. Ever notice the Orc v. Rager war? That started with Alzinghul, and while I don't think he was unjustified, Alzinghul ####ing hated ragers. Through and through. As a human being, he hated what they were, and to an extent, even their players. Several who hold a similar view also serially played Orcs just to have a place in that conflict, not even because Orcs are necessarily the best rager killers, and so resultantly the conflict never really went away. It stayed that way because some people actively enjoyed that environment of open opposition. There is a real cultural conflict there within the game and community and it's INTERESTING and fun to participate in. Fun enough that it's easy even for me to convince at least two other people to perma an orc gank with me at any given time. Now, some people just like playing with buddies or something, and some people just like Orcs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENdUipE4guo).

But I find a lot of what is exciting about being an orc is how opposed everything else is to you, and attempting to hold your ground or even conquer it is an entertaining challenge that almost anyone can enjoy. Orctoberfest used to pull some pretty big numbers until some imm decided they don't like it and started punishing for partaking in it.

Anyhow, you'll notice some of that fun conflict in game had an external source, which was out of game. You'll also notice that almost all of the fun is given a foundation to grow in through a state of conflict. I think a big part of why this community isn't very fun anymore is because, at least as a majority thing, it no longer remembers how to handle conflict, live in conflict, and now seeks only to have something external remove it, both inside the game and out of it.

Dealing with conflict on equal footing like reasonable people is what we need more of here. "Imma gank down ragers wif mah orc fernds" is a lot more healthy for everyone than "remove ragers, dey op"

Hell, the former is fun as balls. It may not always realize it, but in its negativity it breeds something extremely positive.

I've said it a few times before, but honestly, this game just doesn't work without a good number of people who don't have p-ussy attitudes about everything. It just doesn't. It is tailor-made for lots and lots of conflict. Buddy-buddy feeler peacekeepers have a place but can't keep it alive on their own. Dealing with issues and attempting to solve them is almost always a world apart from pandering to peoples feelings. You generally cannot sidestep interpersonal issues to death when there are real differences, you have to manage them.

And in a game like this the issue can frankly be a lack of real, invested conflict. Excluding the people who actually like that will slowly corrode the community until it falls apart. When you look at the forums, on the surface it looks like there is a lot of conflict, but it's as shallow as a puddle. It's more like a cry for any conflict at all, because for some reason anytime it actually happens it's not allowed.

If only some of us (especially any imms and moderators) took a different approach, and will just maintain the fortitude to stomach what they feel is negativity and still move forward, I think things would be different. I mean this to everyone:


People often talk about trying to remove all of what they view as pure negativity from the forums so that when potential new players come along, they will actually want to play, bcause some make the mistake of assuming everyone thinks like them and doesn't like the same people as them.

What's funny here, I think, is that I have talked to a pretty decent number of new players over the 8+ something years I've played, and they were already past the point of trying the game. The irony is that the actions taken to try and encourage new players to try are actually the actions most likely to scare off the type of players who are most likely to enjoy the game in the first place, the kind who do not sweat a little conflict.

Yhorian said something on the other forum that was so close to hitting the root of the issue, and yet so confused on the specifics that it made me want to vomit. That's par for the course for a Yhorian post though (the vomit part), so I will view it as progress on his part.

What he said concerned the silencing of those who speak out:

"People genuinely don't want to post on this forum because there is a subset of assholes that will drown them out and bully them for it" ... "maybe you're(?) 'call everyone a p_ussy for speaking out attitude' is what's destroying this community because it is literally stoppoing people from wanting to post. It certainly worked on me once I lost the power to fight it."

I actually think this comes really close to putting a finger on the real cancer, there are just a few things wrong here. First, dissenting voices cannot drown you out in text, what you say permanently stands its ground, and its points will ride on their own merit (unless a moderator deletes it because they don't like what you say for some reason). That is what is great about a forum, you cannot be silenced or censored simply because of other people attempting to shout over you just because they don't want anybody to hear what you have to say. And bullying is only an issue if you cannot tolerate conflict.

The amusing thing is that Yhorian has his role in it all backwards. Yhorian is directly saying here that "the power to fight it", in his mind, was banning people who said things he thinks are bad, and no longer being a moderator made him helpless (because in his mind, there is no dealing with conflict, only having it removed by higher authority). Essentially he wanted to crusade against the silencing of individuals by silencing individuals. Which is hilariously contradictive and full of blind spots, but unfortunately all too common.

For comparison:
http://youtu.be/4r7cwWegXCU
These are feminists, protesting a book reading by shouting "We will not be silenced!" over the reader whenever they try to speak. Maybe I'm alone in thinking that's retarded or something.

Unfortunately however, something worse than being drowned out by other voices can happen on a forum, it's that you can be silenced when enough of the community feels that they hate what you have to say so much that you ought not even to have a voice at all. Or when somebody who has the authority to remove that voice makes the decision to do so and it either goes unnoticed, or nobody cares enough to speak up about it.

The thing is, when you remove a voice from the community, you remove the entire package. Like a person who enjoyed sharing their experience of the game, and all that they can ever contribute, not to mention anything their participation did to bolster their desire to play. And I think it does something a lot more damaging interpersonally than any insult, no matter how scathing, could ever do when rather than showing the human respect to just disagree with them or even better, argue with them in hopes of progress, you instead simply seek to have their voice (and contribution of spirit) removed altogether.

It just kills the desire to participate altogether. It isn't somebody telling you your views are stupid, that they don't like you, or anything like that. Arguing is often productive and even fun, but when somebody removes you it's something entirely different, it's somebody showing you that because you disagree, you are no longer allowed to have a voice. That is not a foundation upon which any respect can ever be built.

The action itself isn't that big of a deal, and isn't the root issue. But where it comes from inside the heads of the community is where the issue actually is. It's that mindset that "things I don't like should be removed" .. "your rights end where my feelings begin."

There is a reason that bat, stevers and I were always the first people to call out a personally motivated or community "peacekeeping" ban even when those bans were on people who we utterly hate. For example, I ####ing hate Pro and Jerrokrar. I sincerely do. I am the first person to argue with everything they say, and not all too nicely, because I do not agree with how they think about basically anything, frankly I think they're retarded. I have also been, more than a couple times, the first person to get banned for contesting their bans when somebody just decided they were tired of listening to them, even though they weren't doing anything objectively destructive. (And let's face it, almost all bans on both forums are for retarded personal reasons and only stir up more crap than had they just not been done).

The reason for that is because "things I don't like" isn't good cause for silencing or removing them. Most of the community doesn't seem to get that. You ought to get it by now, though, since most of us don't even respect eachother enough to want to play together anymore. That environment of disrespect starts with knowing that if you put out the wrong belief, somebody who disagrees can exclude you, not undertanding that the community works best as a cohesive collective, and not a collection of small treehouse clubs with things like "no ORBs allowed" posted on the door.

Think it's only an issue for a small few? To that I would say... ever consider that maybe that's just because you got rid of everyone who doesn't think like you?

Take a look at FSV. That place was such a cry for a voice that it's almost poetic. Let me start by saying, I only ever looked at that site a few times to see what it was about. I was honestly even a bit disgusted with a lot of what was there. The only post I ever made there was about how nightshade died when someone asked what ever happened to him. In short, I had no attachment to FSV at all.

Me: my site?
someweiner: uh
someweiner: you run fsv don't you
someweiner: are you not robdarken
Me: no
Me: I am
Me: but I never used fsv
someweiner: dread pirate roberts !== robdarken
someweiner: what teh ####
Me: Much less made it
Me: it's cyradias baby
someweiner: lol what
Me: afiak
someweiner: seriously?
Me: I think so
someweiner: nigga I thought that was you this whole time
Me: heh
Me: No.
Me: Apparently a lot of people did
Me: including some imms at first
Me: But no.
Me: I wouldn't run a site like that because I don't want everything changed
Me: I wish people would just leave the ####ing game alone
someweiner: well
someweiner: I don't want anything changed either
someweiner: but information sharing is inevitable
Me: I have nothing agaist it
someweiner: I think someone needs to uh
Me: I still think its dull
someweiner: crack down on the blatant corruption going on in immland
Me: It can be interesting to find #### not everyone knows of

But I think it's an amusing, rebellious child of the censorship in this place whos mere existence directly points back to what a large portion of the community feel is a big issue. It doesn't take a lot to see that.

I have a respect for it though, because it was a place that had room for anyone and everyone. I don't think that place was as much about information sharing in the context of sharing game information as it was about sharing conversation information. Heh. It just screams "I want to be able to say what I feel and think without being silenced." You could say anything on FSV, and be yelled at, and that's ####ing great! I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of people used and supported it. I think it's a consequence of that (and a lot of spite) that people posted as many prep/wand lists as possible there. But frankly... most people already had those anyway. I think if the other forums weren't so toxic they could have remained all of the good of FSV without the info spilling.

Anyway: more dealing with each other and less avoid each other.

The end.

I found I lost the desire to participate on dio's once trolling and saying stupid or outrageous crap simply for the sake of trying to get a rise out of someone became popular.

I've no problem engaging people with whom I vehemently disagree on the forums, but I've no desire having that same discussion with somebody who is not being honest about their viewpoint on the matter.

Which is a shame because it was good to have you around.

I don't think it's the majority or the clear norm, though if by "saying stupid or outrageous crap simply for the sake of trying to get a rise out of someone" you mean 'humor' (though not humor to your preferences, I'm guessing) then I'm not sure what to say if that's strong enough to make someone lose the desire to participate in an entire discussion.

I'm glad, at least, you don't mind engaging with people you disagree with. Though it seems you do mind it, as you mentioned, since you view some as "not being honest in their viewpoint" - even though, and I'm sure this has happened at least once, they might actually be acting in sincerity.

Humor and discussion tend to have difficulty on that line though, so I can't really say.

But what would you prefer, out of curiosity?
A forum where those people who deter your interaction aren't allowed to speak/interact/whatever.
A forum where those people who deter your interaction are just as much allowed to speak/interact/whatever as you.

I find it difficult to really sketch out annihilating speech, in general, since it tends to be so strongly preferential. So I'm not sure who one should cater to: the sensitive or the snarky.

Which is why I default to: BOTH
By not inhibiting either of them.

SO WHAT DO WE DO SENPAI?

nt

This makes me want to roll up an Orc and kill some more no talent, ass clown, bloothirst+deathblow, cry when I don't win button, jackasses.

Thanks for that

You were the funnest chief ever, and the first rager war was the most fun I think I ever had in CF.

I debated saying that you didn't just hate rager players to an extent, but absolutely despised them

But I didn't want to misrepresent you if I misinterpreted you.

As I mentioned in my post on this toipic, I don't think CF will ever see a big surge of new players. Certainly not enough to make a difference.

Frankly if I logged into CF today as a new player it wouldn't keep my interest AS a new player. Just not enough people to interact with to really shine a light on what makes CF such a good game.

That is a vicious cycle because once you hit a tipping point it becomes very hard to keep up numbers. We have great mechanics, etc. as you mentioned but we don't have the PB to show them off anymore.
and I don't believe you can lay this all at the PB being a bunch of 'pussies' who are afraid of conflict.

Honestly I've never interacted with a more conflicted group of folks

Psrt of the problem is we have an aging PB. What you call an unwillingness to deal with conflict or (pussies) some others may call being tired of the drama. Young people love drama, older people get tired of all the drama. I quit Dio's and nearly this game because I was so sick of all the drama and im not even part of any ooc group. I just am a solo player who has been around forever.

The fact you say you 'HATE' a couple other players is exactly why I quit Dio's. I could feel the hatred and anger bubbling up within me every time I logged in and I had to ask myself why was I subjecting myself to an experience that caused me to have so many negative feelings over a GAME.

Frankly in RL im a pretty laid back kinda person but out of shape and STRESS kills. I sure as hell didn't need something adding stress to my life as I have too many unhealthy habits as is much less adding stress to the list.

Secondly we don't just have an aging PB we have an aging IMM staff.

I'm sure that that also plays a role in how the 'culture' of CF has changed over the years. I'm pretty sure the Imms have a much lower tolerance for drama than they did when they were in their twenties.

Finally every point Exit made is valid. Pointing to an exception doesn't change the fact most people aren't going to give much attention to a game like CF these days especially as mentioned if they login right now they will be bored to leaving before they get a chance to find out (as we did) what CF has to offer.

I agree that we shouldn't change the core Cf experience. But im all for ideas that make CF funner for the people who still play it and actually add to the core CF experience by continuing its tradition of innovative gameplay.

>As I mentioned in my post on this toipic, I don't think CF
>will ever see a big surge of new players. Certainly not
>enough to make a difference.

It's hard to say. But it's definitely an uphill battle, and propects are dim yeah. Now I mean, for the past few years, a good fraction of players were younger guys who had plenty of alternative, so I do think those people exist who will choose it over what would be considered more normal.

I really do think this is a game that offers something better than almost anything else can in a lasting way. On the other hand, that means this game is likely only to attract true weirdos :p. I think in the past it was in a better position to attract those who were only slightly odd too, since there were not as many options to begin with.

>Frankly if I logged into CF today as a new player it wouldn't
>keep my interest AS a new player. Just not enough people to
>interact with to really shine a light on what makes CF such a
>good game.

Yeah, but I don't think it needs very many more. I really think 10 to 15 would make the difference. It'd be slow going, but it'd be enough as long as we're not on a deficit. I know some people legitimately don't have enough time to spend to feel like it's worth it, but I think there are just even more people who are lurking but just don't feel like the game climate has a place for them anymore.

>That is a vicious cycle because once you hit a tipping point
>it becomes very hard to keep up numbers. We have great
>mechanics, etc. as you mentioned but we don't have the PB to
>show them off anymore.
>and I don't believe you can lay this all at the PB being a
>bunch of 'pussies' who are afraid of conflict.

I can't lay it all on that. I can certainly lay it on driving off about 8 players I know. Improvement is improvement I think, and I'd be happy with any.

>Honestly I've never interacted with a more conflicted group of
>folks

Probably not. I was just getting at that part of what I think is different is that we don't deal with conflict anymore, and just try to avoid it now. An amusing sense of entitlement to not being at odds with anyone (since anyone who opposes is apparently a troll or a big fat jerk).

>Psrt of the problem is we have an aging PB. What you call an
>unwillingness to deal with conflict or (pussies) some others
>may call being tired of the drama. Young people love drama,
>older people get tired of all the drama. I quit Dio's and
>nearly this game because I was so sick of all the drama and im
>not even part of any ooc group. I just am a solo player who
>has been around forever.

I don't know about that though. Conflict isn't drama, I don't think they're synonymous like that. Conflict is when people have differing interests. Drama pretty much always refers to people getting emotional and excited about something. You can have conflict without drama, and I think it's often a really useful thing. People being sensitive about conflict however is what creates drama. They don't wanna deal with being at odds with anyone, they just wanna get it away from it cuz muh feels.

Now people on dios can't even argue with eachother without getting upset about it, feeling attacked (because someone differs on a view, to which they respond caustically too because they feel attacked for some reason, causing the other person to respond caustically in kind) and saying "isn't this a personal attack? You should ban x!" or just "stop with the personal attacks."

Attacking the ideas you put out there is not attacking you. Treating it that way is what, I think, creates the drama that makes nobody want to really deal with each other unless they already see everything eye-to-eye.

>The fact you say you 'HATE' a couple other players is exactly
>why I quit Dio's. I could feel the hatred and anger bubbling
>up within me every time I logged in and I had to ask myself
>why was I subjecting myself to an experience that caused me to
>have so many negative feelings over a GAME.

Because the game is fun. Because people I hate can be fun, awesome and interesting, even when we're not against each other.

Another example of someone I really hate is triphitndip, but I always had fun interacting with his characters, he could be so much fun to play with that I'd forget it was even him if I already knew.

I feel like we work together to make the game experience fun, and I just don't feel that I need everyone I do that with to be likeable for that experience to be great. They can still be fun people.

I might hate a co-worker. Doesn't mean we can't do a great job together and even have it be fun. I think it's more toxic when people just won't come together over differences that aren't deal breaking. To the extent of hitting "I won't work with that person" as an attitude.

Too many people seem unwilling to continue moving forward just because there is one element they don't like, and somehow they seem compelled to be controlled by the feelings it causes.

>Frankly in RL im a pretty laid back kinda person but out of
>shape and STRESS kills. I sure as hell didn't need something
>adding stress to my life as I have too many unhealthy habits
>as is much less adding stress to the list.

Mebbe. I can undestand not wanting to deal with it anymore, even if I don't agree on why.

>Secondly we don't just have an aging PB we have an aging IMM
>staff.

Assign heirs. There is baby daev if we want to keep it in the nobility or something.

>I'm sure that that also plays a role in how the 'culture' of
>CF has changed over the years. I'm pretty sure the Imms have
>a much lower tolerance for drama than they did when they were
>in their twenties.

I think they have a much lower tolerance for fun.

>Finally every point Exit made is valid. Pointing to an
>exception doesn't change the fact most people aren't going to
>give much attention to a game like CF these days especially as
>mentioned if they login right now they will be bored to
>leaving before they get a chance to find out (as we did) what
>CF has to offer.

Of course not. But I really think if we just did a better job maintaing what players we do have, rather than using our differences as an excuse to not subject ourselves to the little bit of trouble of dealing with some people we don't like, it would be enough of a foundation for this game to at least not die.

Logging into like 30 players was always enough for me. That isn't a gigantic number to ask, I think.

>I agree that we shouldn't change the core Cf experience. But
>im all for ideas that make CF funner for the people who still
>play it and actually add to the core CF experience by
>continuing its tradition of innovative gameplay.

There's always room for good ideas, and surely enough CF has changed a few times and often been better for it. I just think the focus of these changes should focus on adding to the existing fun rather than pandering to those who don't appreciate it to start with.

There's plenty of evidence that people do leave the game and the forums when you and your buddies all pile on them.

There's plenty of evidence that people do leave the game when they get full looted for the n'th time, or multikilled.

Back in the day, it was easy to regear because all gear was crap. Now if you regear with crap you had better be skilled or you are going to die to all those with uber-gear and/or years of experience.

What I don't get is that you seem to think that your behavior isn't the problem when it causes people to leave. Instead, you think that their behavior is the problem because they are too soft.

The reality is that some people are soft, and even those that aren't tend to leave if they can't survive long enough to find their feet in this game.

If your pleasure requires you to make their day worse by looting down to the pies, that's a problem. Using your argument, you could say that looting down to the pies is a good thing and that anyone who looks to prevent it is a ####.

Hell, you call me a #### for speaking out against this stuff, completely ignoring the fact that I don't suffer as a result of it because (a) I don't die easily in game, and (b) people that behave like juvenile kids don't offend me as much as they disgust me.

Honestly, most people grow out of being unaware of how to go through life without needlessly offending people. Others enjoy it, presumably because their life is pretty empty of worthwhile things. Unless you can give me an example of an internet troll who has actually accomplished something worthwhile?

>There's plenty of evidence that people do leave the game and
>the forums when you and your buddies all pile on them.

I tend to pile on the people that are already throwing a fit and leaving anyway.

>There's plenty of evidence that people do leave the game when
>they get full looted for the n'th time, or multikilled.

Retaining players is less important than maintaining the spirit of CF. Full loots are rare as hell regardless, and usually provoked.

>Back in the day, it was easy to regear because all gear was
>crap. Now if you regear with crap you had better be skilled
>or you are going to die to all those with uber-gear and/or
>years of experience.

Full regears are rare because full loots are rare. Even so, you can wear absolute crap and still be competitive long enough to obtain less-than-absolute-crap. In the case that you can't, you're playing the wrong class for you skill level maybe?

Warrior/Ranger/Assassin/Thief/Healer/Paladin are all classes that I personally know can be useful without thinking about gear at all.

Speaking of "useful," the trend of judging players by their PK score falls way short in a world where many players can be much more useful in a support role than a kill role.

>What I don't get is that you seem to think that your behavior
>isn't the problem when it causes people to leave. Instead,
>you think that their behavior is the problem because they are
>too soft.

I don't keep up with who is who, but what has Rob done lately to cause someone to leave? Yes, they are too soft for this game. It's ok to be too soft for this game. It's hardcore and not for everyone, just like Dwarf Fortress as he pointed out.

>The reality is that some people are soft, and even those that
>aren't tend to leave if they can't survive long enough to find
>their feet in this game.

There are a ton of reasons people leave. Some come back, some don't. Anyone expecting to "survive" in this game is playing the wrong game. Again, maintain the spirit vs. retain the players.

>If your pleasure requires you to make their day worse by
>looting down to the pies, that's a problem. Using your
>argument, you could say that looting down to the pies is a
>good thing and that anyone who looks to prevent it is a ####.

The ability to loot down to the pies is a good thing. Both from the looter and lootee perspective. The first provides a chance for a sweet ass boost in power if you kill someone better geared than you. The second provides a sense of consequence to your PK and RP actions, without which, the RP becomes bland. Trust me, I've tried many rp games and they all blow chunks because BillyBob can't come kill me and loot my pies.

>Hell, you call me a #### for speaking out against this stuff,
>completely ignoring the fact that I don't suffer as a result
>of it because (a) I don't die easily in game, and (b) people
>that behave like juvenile kids don't offend me as much as they
>disgust me.

On the contrary, he seems to be advocating for people to be able to speak out. He may call you a #### for your opinion, but not for "speaking out" I bet.

>Honestly, most people grow out of being unaware of how to go
>through life without needlessly offending people. Others
>enjoy it, presumably because their life is pretty empty of
>worthwhile things. Unless you can give me an example of an
>internet troll who has actually accomplished something
>worthwhile?

I like how you say people grow out of "immature behavior X" and if they don't, they have empty lives. Which is a needless offense against those people. I assume you must have an empty life?

I haven't said what you state I have.

I do think though that newbies need to be cut some slack while they adjust to the learning curve.

>There's plenty of evidence that people do leave the game and
>the forums when you and your buddies all pile on them.
If there is it hasn't been brought to my attention yet. Aside from that, I've often gone out of my way not to dogpile, even defending the people I don't like, like funnyone, pro, jerrokrar when people are unreasonably dogpiling on them just because it's the popular, accepted thing.

>There's plenty of evidence that people do leave the game when
>they get full looted for the n'th time, or multikilled.
I think that's rarely a primary cause. I don't think those many of those people quit for long. I don't think full loot happens very often anymore.

I think that actually discourages what makes this game fun. I've noticed the trend that as we go out of our way to be nicer and nicer (to the point of imm pulling people aside for multikilling people who aren't new) that it actually just makes those people expect less and less hardship. The more they get the more they want. I think it's actually poisoning their fun in a really subtle way.


>Back in the day, it was easy to regear because all gear was
>crap. Now if you regear with crap you had better be skilled
>or you are going to die to all those with uber-gear and/or
>years of experience.
I never had that experience (since 2006 or so). I think players in general are too afraid these days to participate in PK with less than great advantage even when they have little to lose and a lot to gain.

They are frequently the unskilled who mistake ratios for competency, not taking into account that they never subjected themself to situations that require a lot of competency to prevail in.


>What I don't get is that you seem to think that your behavior
>isn't the problem when it causes people to leave. Instead,
>you think that their behavior is the problem because they are
>too soft.
I don't know of anyone I've caused to leave. What is the behavior I exhibit that causes people to leave? Are you talking about in game or out of game behavior?

>The reality is that some people are soft, and even those that
>aren't tend to leave if they can't survive long enough to find
>their feet in this game.
Being soft doesn't mean you have to give up at the first sign of difficulty.

I also think you're misunderstanding me here. I'm not advocating being mean to anyone for the sake of it. I've been advocating not trying to shove genuine conflict in the corner and pretend it has no place anywhere.


>If your pleasure requires you to make their day worse by
>looting down to the pies, that's a problem. Using your
>argument, you could say that looting down to the pies is a
>good thing and that anyone who looks to prevent it is a ####.
What are you referring to here? I'm not sure that I even said anything about loot (except its desirablity) to begin with. I am also one of the players who doesn't loot even when I ought to, even gold :p. I think you're making a lot of asssumption about me without knowing me. If you're not referring to me, I don't know what you are referring to.

I do, however, full loot to make a point when I feel necessary. Full looting 5/100 kills for me is about the norm.


>Hell, you call me a #### for speaking out against this stuff,
>completely ignoring the fact that I don't suffer as a result
>of it because (a) I don't die easily in game, and (b) people
>that behave like juvenile kids don't offend me as much as they
>disgust me.
What stuff are you speaking out against exactly? You mean the stuff I never talked about in my post? Also it isn't exactly bold to speak out when you are just joining the chorus of the majority already.

If you successfully misrepresent my post to say "be an asshole to newbies" and then you say "you shouldn't be an asshole to them!" ... do you think you that would put you at odds with the overwhelming majority, who are going to drown you out and bully you? Or would you just get excessive backing from practically every single person, since nobody reasonable thinks like that?

I mean, pardon my bluntness, but you aren't speaking out against anything in that case, even if that WAS what I said. I don't get acting like you're putting yourself out there here. :-/

You also seem to be missing something crucial about my argument. I won't call you a #### for speaking out against something. Ever. I have always been about putting your ideas out there, and them being allowed to stand without being removed. 90% of my bans on qhcf have been directly due to that.

I'll call you a #### because you're a ####, and what you say reveals. Not because I think you should stop talking or ought not to be able to talk about it.

>Honestly, most people grow out of being unaware of how to go
>through life without needlessly offending people. Others
>enjoy it, presumably because their life is pretty empty of
>worthwhile things. Unless you can give me an example of an
>internet troll who has actually accomplished something
>worthwhile?
I don't know what this paragraph is addressing. I am not about needlessly offending people, I am about not walking on egg shells around their feelings. If everyone always decides that whatever they don't like is bullying and disruptive, nothing good really ever comes of talking in the first place. There is no progress to be had in having your own views reaffirmed by those who already share them.

>I think that actually discourages what makes this game fun. I've noticed the trend that as we go out of our way to be nicer and nicer (to the point of imm pulling people aside for multikilling people who aren't new) that it actually just makes those people expect less and less hardship. The more they get the more they want. I think it's actually poisoning their fun in a really subtle way.<

Wow. Mind = Blown

I'm not saying you say to be mean to newbs.

I'm saying that you are saying that it is ok to full them at times, pk them at will etc.

The reality is that it only takes a few vets doing this to drive many away who, if given an easier ride while learning might have stayed

Also, I don't think that I take disagreement as bullying. The latter is far more about how you go about disagreeing and, as a pack, going for an individual (like pro, say).