In lieu of Althamael death could we have some AP love?

Here are some changes I thought would be good for class:

1) Number of player reduced significantly, could we reduce number of charges required to get controls?

2) Cold control is pretty bad
Could increase chance on triggering or add mini ice ball affect to it?

3) Lightning control is too good.
May be swap the functionality with "Blessing of Sedayamin"?

4) Flails/daggers are notoriously bad as unholy weapons.
May be change 'enervating spirits' so it would reduce all defenses, not just shield block?
Add some perk to dagger unholy? Riposte? AoE slash?


Thank you in advance.

Small amount of damage reduction with aura of despair (maybe 15% or so, comparable to other mages built in damage reduction) that gets cancelled as soon as you put up aura/barrier/shield.

An intimidation skill that gives a small chance of avoiding a melee attack and an even smaller chance of avoiding any other attack, or a new skill which ups armor deflection chances beyond what the basics armor use skill does. You're generally stuck with nothing but parry for defenses and pretty mediocre HP gains. Combine this with no real lag protection, very late to the game with evade, they're pretty much the most fragile class out there. I think thematically the armor use thing fits since they're supposed to be heavily armored fighter that don't bother to dodge, and it would be difficult to optimize completely without making sacrifices.

Edit: Looking at the helpfile, giving A-P's access to shaman warpriest paths seems like it would cover this. I have often thought that evil shamans get a lot of cool stuff that plays out like I feel that A-P's should.

I would also like to see them gain some form of svspell from ab ability. Only thieves, other an APs, from the martial classes don't and I think would aid against some of the fragility. The aura of despair is a good idea too. Bring evade down to 35.

Maybe APs could have an option of dodge skill versus spellcraft?!

I have often got stuck on this when asking myself "if I could play an A-P with 1 free skill from somewhere what would it be" and it's between those two yes.

The heavy/light armour thing seems like it might work in miniature - extra damage reduction/avoidance/mitigation from heavy armour vs increased spell level from light armour, neither to the extent of dodge or spellcraft, and both requiring gearing in a particular way - so really nowhere near as nice as getting spellcraft or dodge.

Even if AP's got the choice between Dodge or Parry, I think it would help some of the more dex motivated ones.

The factors which keep A-P from being competitive in the modern-CF sense are entirely outside the class itself. It revolves around damage reduction, ability or inability to explore at various level ranges and general need to be constantly collecting items to maintain a baseline readiness.

I would very much prefer a way to slowly/eventually reduce the need for the basic itemization grind in an APs life. If you could somehow earn things like fly, shield, enlarge and reduce and/or other essentials, I think that would go a long way.

Other than that, I would be really sad if A-P saw any major changes.

I do not really see how this really has anything to do with my comment that it would be cool to be given the choice between parry and dodge for dext based races like d-elf, felar, and arial.

It really was a tangent from the discussion as a whole.

But let me ask this: How is an AP different from a Necromancer in this respect? They are a mage class, need DR, can explore in certain areas with their undead, and in general need to be kept constantly ready for someone to kill them. Because much like an AP, the necromancer is hunted by most of the mud. Now there are distinct advantages that the Necromancer has and the itemization grind is very similar to an AP. A Necromancer also has fly as a spell. You could just choose Arial as your AP race and have fly as well. I do feel they should get a shield spell built into their class. But that is just me.

On a different tangent, if they balanced all Unholy Blessing Controls and gave them additional powers such as fly, enlarge, etc. that might be cool. They could also lower the thresholds (and level) at where you get the controls too so they are more tactical choices.

I have never had a successful AP because it is a difficult class.

I replied to you purely because giving AP dodge would be a major change, at least the way I see the class.

> On a different tangent, if they balanced all Unholy Blessing Controls and gave them additional powers such as fly, enlarge, etc. that might be cool. They could also lower the thresholds (and level) at where you get the controls too so they are more tactical choices.

I agree with, and like this idea. In terms of how the class plays out, it is a much less drastic change.

> But let me ask this: How is an AP different from a Necromancer in this respect? They are a mage class, need DR, can explore in certain areas with their undead, and in general need to be kept constantly ready for someone to kill them. Because much like an AP, the necromancer is hunted by most of the mud. Now there are distinct advantages that the Necromancer has and the itemization grind is very similar to an AP.

Pretty much. Wraithform, armor of living, animate dead and spellcraft are all huge factors. Nether protection (shield) is pure gravy in the context of those other abilities. Having played hundreds of hours of both necromancers, APs and Warriors... I would much sooner compare AP with non-Rager Warriors than AP and any other caster when it comes to itemization requirements. In terms of both consumables and wearables.

Oh, and they could have cool echos when you cast them on your unholy.

"You feel the the flames of Ninauurm burn within you as your feet float off the ground."

Those sorts of awesome echos.

Sometimes an ap should be pouring out melee damage. They even get 2 hits against everyone attacking them if dual wielding at high level. They have a big selection of weapons and a wide range of physical maladicting, plus they can lag a bit.

I was comparing the two classes and in that sentence I was making entire reference to the necromancer.
But yeah, I can see if you glaze over the sentence how you can assume that I'm claiming that an ap is a "pure mage".

I'm not denying that you can play it like a melee tank with big hits and lag.
But remember, a necromancer can have minions which is their melee damage and those minions can lag in some cases. So really, it is not so bad of a comparison.
If you are playing a dark-elf ap you might want to play it a bit more like a mage... at least at first.

Not that I am an expert on playing an ap or anything. I hate having my weapons sac'd. Pisses me off.

Successfully. Sometimes you need to play like a Mage and sometimes not. If you always play like a Mage you will be less successful. Aps can do more than melee damage. They can cause bleeding in several ways, ruins charisma of conjies and bards physically (and with magic too), slow the speed at which people can walk, and lag in several ways. They can disarm and blind physically (that's useful against ragers at times) etc.

Lashes of the slave is arguably as good as drum and flurry given that it isn't just damage.

But to carry out even half of those skills and be effective you need wands/damage reduction and so APs get pained more than most when they have #### wand locations.

One of my biggest bugbears is bloodlust. You use it to be effective with melee and heal a bit fighting mobs but if they screw you over you then have to wait ages to heal, if remote area, to wait it out. Wouldn't it be great to just cast bloodlust again to stop it?!

It should be an edge like the iron grip cancellation edge.

And I agree, aps are more subject to wand screwery, because they are less suited to soloing mobs than other magi. Easy barrier makes them too strong, tough sleek makes them rather vulnerable in raids if limited ones are being hoarded.

Aura of despair could also use a switch off edge.

Nt

There's also an upside in that you can't be slowed. Tradeoffs.

I know what you mean, but given that you want to remove bloodlust to rest, not being able to slow is usually bad. Most aps will either be muter meat or not have to worry about being slowed much because the muter will be parrying and they won't, even if not slowed, so will be using spells probably.

You get outfought in melee while they have haste and you don't bloodlust redresses that imbalance and you're a buffed fighter hybrid and they're just a buffed mage, giving you an advantage where other classes end up being slowed vs someone hasted and can still buckle. It's a game changer against transmuters.

Maybe they weren't using accelerate and staff?

I found aps couldn't parry me that way, and I'd parry most of their attacks.

nt

I could see that working.

Dodge is generally not as good as parry, but weak aps don't parry all that well anyway.

Edges like silent sidestepper would be worth taking, as would cave fighter. Can't remember if evade also works better for those with dodge. (It kind of felt like it did when I played Nererial.)

It could make for interest if this was an option for aps. I wouldn't want to have dodge forced on an ap though.

The aura of despair change sounds good as that spell has significant drawbacks.

The rest, I think would all make it too easy for aps to survive while getting charges.

Aps need to be fragile to be balanced. I guess what messes balance up is that aps with barrier on tap are not fragile and those without are too fragile. So maybe an ap could exchange barrier use for dodge/spell craft.

Would solve a lot of problems imo, and keep them in line balance wise.

Just sayin dude, I'd not take that particular trade...ever

There may be fewer players but you now get charges from people that die to mobs after teleporting. That's a big plus.

Learning to make use of the earlier controls is part of the skill of the ap. lightning control is too good to let someone have it earlier. I'd probably make it the last control but for atmospherics.

I created a post earlier this year similar to this. I believe AP's could use a total revamp actually. The highlights of my ideas were:

1. Create a AP exclusive manatype called bloodpool or something along those lines which is used to power high-level AP spells/controls.

Reasoning here is that instead of enslaving an AP to a weapon you give them a perishable source of mana that can't be replenished except through PK. They get the controls/etc. but have to keep PKing in order to have enough 'bloodpool' in order to use their best spells/controls. Basically this idea was inspired by the old idea of 'powerups' you get in video games.

2. Create an automated 'demon pantheon' and each demon lord grants access to different spells/controls to add some variety, so you'd have different types of anti-paladins based on which demon lord they draw power from. Each demon lord could take into consideration race/clas/ethos considerations as a matter of further dividing the field. At least one of the demon lords would represent the current unchanged AP setup.

3. Give controls more customization by having offensive/defensive settings for each control and allowing APs to have two controls up as long as one is set off and the other def.

EX:

Fire control

Offensive: What it does now, small chance to immolate target
Defensive: Reduced damage from fire-based attacks, chance to set surroundings on fire while standing in them.

I'd perhaps add that each demon lord perhaps could give different offensive/defensive options for your controls.

the control choice was given to the player?

That would really help better tailor to current enemies and would also mean more a-ps duking it out at hero instead of sitting trying to get past fire control.

make the controls cost different amounts (of charges) and let the AP select when/which to unlock a control for.

I actually kinda like this idea. So say, lightning control would be 25 souls and ice could be 15. In the end it takes the same amount of souls to get all the controls but you get more choice on which you get when.

I'd go directly to lightning, make my next one acid, and not care about any of the rest...

As in, you actually lose the charges spent on the control but get a more permanent (but lesser maybe) power boost in return?

Or maybe just make it so that APs can bargain their weapons for more permanent "empowerments" or whatever.

Fire should be great when fighting felar. And it should be worthwhile at least when not fighting maran.

Cold should synergize more with iceball or maybe do some sort of 'held' freezing like mental jolt. (Although lightning kind of covers that already).

All in all, controls should be evened out.

Fire control is fantastic for fighting felar, and pretty great for fighting anyone but Maran. I'd use it over, say, an acid-based uncontrolled weapon on a fire giant even.

Ice control does synergise with iceball since it adds to the movement drain (which is already not a thing to be ignored with iceball. And chill touch too.

Probably because I'd feel cheated if I never got the chance to 'win' (5 controls) at classic A-P.

I think A-P's could use some tweaking, but not in terms of charges or controls. Reducing the number of charges required for each control to 20 might be reasonable given the increasing unwillingness of people to be PKed and small number of players, but getting controls is supposed to be hard and it would lesson the accomplishment if it were made too easy, or so that anyone with 30 PK's could get lightning control.

A-P's can be very deadly without much at all, I think it's their fragility if anything that needs to be addressed, not their deathfulness.

Even then I think the problem is that the class is balanced GIVEN an accessible set of wands - I think wand location has a bigger impact on A-P's than any other class.

I admit I know ZERO about what these do beyond change the damage type of your weapon.

So consider my opinion a highly uninformed one. It just seemed like neat customization that likely if we did go through, we'd need a balance pass on the controls.

Like I said in another post, A-P's are deadly enough, if they need an upward tweak it's in terms of survivability

I'd think a dark-elf might want the defilement control especially depending on what type of weapon (preferably whip/flail) they were using.

Why is acid a higher level control than lightning?

You think lightning is better but acid is second best.

I know why people like lightning but really have no clue about acid. What makes it better than fire and ice?

I'd want both lightning and acid.

Lightning's random damage outburst seems to me to hit harder than fire, and/or hit more often. It has a (small) chance for an arcing seizure type affect that will lag them for a round or two.

Acid is more useful on bigger foes with more hp - it continually softens more and more over time.

So acid is great for raiding or leveling, and pretty good in pk situations. Lightning is great for pk situations and ok for raiding/leveling (except if you are leveling on storm giants ).

I think that all of them have their merits. Lightning just fits my playstyle (DPS) more than others.

EVERYONE uses lightning when they can get it. Period. Acid and and defilement are ignored mostly, while you just muddle through fire and cold to get to the real control.

So I say homogenize them because there isn't anyone using the others for various situations anyway.

So you unlock control unholy blessing, and can choose whichever attack type you desire.

What this choice does, however, is decide to which Fiend your souls go. So instead of your weapon storing the souls, it a way to feed that fiend, and a piece of it's power goes into the weapon.

So you basically choose what path you want to follow, and at various tiers of charges to that fiend, you unlock something akin to the demonic aspects from the demonspawn shaman path. A personal buff.

I figure this way it isn't just muddle through the various unholy blessings until you get lightning then you aren't interested in anything else, and only care about charges (except for that one edge). And instead you want to improve your base char slightly with each charge, that doesn't go away when you lose the weapon, while still keeping the awesomeness that is high charges in a weapon, but which can be lost.

Controls from the worst to the best:

1) Cold
2) Negative
3) Fire
4) Acid
5) Lightning

As I said cold is very bad and lightning is too good to be true.

You use fire to get to lightning and ignore the rest.

Does not have to be this way...

Some decent ideas above.
Up to Implementers to code something up

I.e. you pick lightning first, fire later you get weaker lightning and stronger fire.