If outlander's are cool with dwarves and orcs now, are they also cool with duergars? My thought was always that duergar were hunted because they were a derivation of dwarf. Since duergar are "not known for their mining or metal working skills" and dwarf digging is no longer harmful to Thar-Eris, it seems like duergar should be off the outlander naughty list as well.

Am I completely offbase here and outlanders really hate duergar because they have greasy beards? I know the old Sylvan dogma was duergar were a twisted, unnatural perversion of another race, but so were drow and orcs. Sylvan's hunted half drow too from what I remember.

Only certain Outlanders get along with orcs and dwarves. In most cases, you could almost be guaranteed that the ones who like orcs do not like dwarves.

Duergar, on the other hand, were not ever hunted because they were like dwarves. They have a completely other reason in Outlander dogma to be hunted.

Just curious. Never got too deep in the Outlander/Tribunal conflict or eithers dogma.

Could you please elaborate on behalf of those in Outlander who look at the bark and then look at current cabal policy and are fairly confused as to who is an 'official' enemy and who is 'perhaps' an enemy depending on who you ask?

First of all -

Why were orcs changed to a 'definate' enemy to a 'perhaps'?

Orcs make slaves as an integral part of their culture, they are born through rape, and are literally an unnatural offshoot of the elven race. It's pretty hard to see how anyone in Outlander could justify being allies with them if not outright killing them every chance they get.

Dwarves/Duergar -

Please elaborate on what the seperate difference is for duergar not being hunted vs. dwarves. From what I understand, dwarves aka Diggers are/were hunted because in their culture mining is a pre-eminent occupation and they violate the body of Thar-Eris with their focus on mining and smithing.

Duergar are thieves and murderers, not typically miners. They like orcs do however have a focus on slavery as pre-eminent occupation. However if *that* is the reason to hunt duergar then they aren't any worse (and culturally a step up) from orcs. '

Personally I don't mind *not* hunting all three but I feel that Outlander players and potential Outlander players need a solid foundation/reasoning behind why they are no longer *required* to hunt the above three races.

Many of the players have been playing Outlander likely for years and years and are killing the above out of habit and when faced with the question as to 'why' they would be unable to give a good reason that doesn't call into question the actions of the other guy/gal who is sitting there making nice with them.

>Could you please elaborate on behalf of those in Outlander
>who look at the bark and then look at current cabal policy and
>are fairly confused as to who is an 'official' enemy and who
>is 'perhaps' an enemy depending on who you ask?
>
>First of all -
>
>Why were orcs changed to a 'definate' enemy to a 'perhaps'?

The trade off for dwarves to become "okay" with some outlanders was that orcs became "okay". Their actions in many situations, though not all, are like a reaver. Many reavers continue to hunt them which is fine as well. This will go more towards your dogma question below where I will elaborate more.

>
>Orcs make slaves as an integral part of their culture, they
>are born through rape, and are literally an unnatural offshoot
>of the elven race. It's pretty hard to see how anyone in
>Outlander could justify being allies with them if not outright
>killing them every chance they get.
>
>Dwarves/Duergar -
>
>Please elaborate on what the seperate difference is for
>duergar not being hunted vs. dwarves. From what I understand,
>dwarves aka Diggers are/were hunted because in their culture
>mining is a pre-eminent occupation and they violate the body
>of Thar-Eris with their focus on mining and smithing.

Duergars create admantite. That is a no-no.

>
>Duergar are thieves and murderers, not typically miners. They
>like orcs do however have a focus on slavery as pre-eminent
>occupation. However if *that* is the reason to hunt duergar
>then they aren't any worse (and culturally a step up) from
>orcs. '
>
>Personally I don't mind *not* hunting all three but I feel
>that Outlander players and potential Outlander players need a
>solid foundation/reasoning behind why they are no longer
>*required* to hunt the above three races.

Dogma for outlander is that there is no solid foundation and the reasons are open to interpretation. There are three different branches that are not only allowed to interpret the bark, they are encouraged to do so. For example: Conjurers are bad. Good conjurers are enemies because of their actions and should be hunted to extinction is perfectly fine for Harbinger and Nightreavers. For the Sunwarden, the interpretation could be to convince them they are bad. For orcs who are actively hunting at the Fortress against dwarves, paladins, conjurers etc. should be hunted by the Sunwarden, but may be allies to the Nightreaver who is also hunting the same Fortress members. The Harbinger may lay back and try to finish them all. The Nightreaver may kill the orc after the rest are dead as well just for good measure.

>
>Many of the players have been playing Outlander likely for
>years and years and are killing the above out of habit and
>when faced with the question as to 'why' they would be unable
>to give a good reason that doesn't call into question the
>actions of the other guy/gal who is sitting there making nice
>with them.

The good reason is left up to the player(s) interpretation of the bark. Good interpretations are rewarded, weak/lame interpretations won't be. Basically it boils down to interesting and well thought out.

>
>
>
>

no text

Adamantite seems to be much much much much (insert a lot more musts) common on and in dark elf mobs/areas.

Duergar areas seem to have a lot of mithril.

The only metal I have seen tied to a race was whitesteel to dwarves. I don't think there is anything about the origins of adamantite.

A better explanation might be...
"When we designed the outlander cabal dogma we were all high on paint chips and didn't think it all through"

which is why we have inconsistancies like...
outlanders don't like paladins (their code has the word law in it I guess even though respect is a lot different than build cities and uphold it)

Why they hate digger races which most players aren't playing miners (dwarves and duergar but somehow not svirfnibli/drow)

They hate unnatural races like minotaurs, but felar are equally unnatural and constitute the most common race in the cabal.

One of their immortals is of a race that if he was mortal would cause him to be hunted by his own cabal

**Now this inconsistancy is not a weakness, I think it creates some ripe soil for interesting RP about trying to understand it. I also understand that it is really 2 cabals with very different ideas in one (It is just light and dark, harbringers have almost never actually differentiated themselves or done anything to actually maintain balance between the branches they just kind of blah one way or the other generally).

Idea change! remove the harbringer path, neutrals can either be reavers or wardens, that would make the cabal a lot more interesting, especially by heightening the internal conflict that is unique to it.

>Adamantite seems to be much much much much (insert a lot more
>musts) common on and in dark elf mobs/areas.
>
>Duergar areas seem to have a lot of mithril.
>
>The only metal I have seen tied to a race was whitesteel to
>dwarves. I don't think there is anything about the origins of
>adamantite.

Agreed, but I certainly could be missing something.

>A better explanation might be...
>"When we designed the outlander cabal dogma we were all high
>on paint chips and didn't think it all through"

This is how everything should be designed.

>which is why we have inconsistancies like...
>outlanders don't like paladins (their code has the word law in
>it I guess even though respect is a lot different than build
>cities and uphold it)

It's not about what is in the code, it is about the following OF a code. Further, not just a code, but a STRICT code that inhibits freedom. Dislike, mistrust, but not necessarily kill on sight makes sense to me.

>Why they hate digger races which most players aren't playing
>miners (dwarves and duergar but somehow not svirfnibli/drow)

Duergar and drow aren't hyper focused on mining. They live in the Underdark. The difference between dwarves/svirfneblin in this regard should be obvious. Dwarves tear the earth and rip ore/gems/whatever from it. They force it to bend to their will.

Svirfnebli, on the other hand, coax the earth to give its bounty. Svirfnebli have a close affinity with the earth and are more akin to farmers than miners. This holds true if you explore their city. Notice the veins of gems/minerals allowed to grow free so that they can cultivate it. They are ripping, they are dead heading like one would do to a plant to establish better growth. The are one with the stone rather than forcing the stone to their will/destroying it.

EDIT: A good analogy, I think:

The dwarf is like a group of people cutting down a forest to build a city. The Svirfnebli is like a druid that lives in a tree shaped to become a house.

>They hate unnatural races like minotaurs, but felar are
>equally unnatural and constitute the most common race in the
>cabal.

Every single minotaur is born of dark magic and unnatural means. Felar on the other hand, breed and are born as naturally as anyone else, despite their original unnatural creation. They broke the bonds of slavery and earned their right as a natural race of Thera. If anything, they should be a shining example for Outlanders imo. However, your take on it here is an interesting one and would be neat to play and makes sense.

----------------

Should not, I've only played a bit of Outlander. Small handful of hours. I speak to lore I've gleaned from the game by exploring homelands/lyceum/etc. So, I may be wrong. Go and see for yourself.

>If outlander's are cool with dwarves and orcs now

Short version is, that probably depends on who in Outlander you ask. You should not be too shocked to find some Outlanders still killing you for being either.