In the area command not every area has a minimum-maximum level stated. How does one find all the level restrictions to the areas so we know when we can get observation and exploration experience points from them?

If it's an area that (extraordinary measures aside) a low to mid level character is unlikely to survive themselves, the minimum level is probably 30 or 35.

Otherwise it's probably 11.

As a level 1, can I still go to all the home towns and villages that a level one can get to with out any problems and obtain explore observe.

Can I still go around and safely explore the hometowns and the low level areas before level 11 or is it a waste of time now to do that?

The areas that say < all > or <1-51> for levels in the area command. Can one explore them and get the exploration and observation point from them if explored before level 11?

Frankly, I'm now in a "the more information I give people, the more they'll use it to bot everything" mindset. The information I've provided up thread is what you're getting for now.

Awesome. I'm so glad a bunch of assholes decided to make and dedicate a website to cheating, forcing you to water down and basically take a big crap on my favorite game. Awesome. So glad.

You must be new here. Welcome to the internet.

Move all the explore/observation experience into the inescapable death traps. Let the fools bot.

bahahaha

Do it.

I never bot and usually run with zero triggers. But lets say I roll a new conjurer today. Due to the enormous difference warded familiar/warrior familiar does for soloing (not many others play at the times I play so I cannot count on a group) then I must go for explore/observation (and a role, preferably with a really strange story as that gives more xp).

So this means I must hit htos, hamsah seaport etc. with every character I roll. And as I don't know what gives explore/observation xp I spend hours looking at the same things with every char. I look at every drawer, every bookcase and pretty much every mob. This time not spent interacting, rp-ing or anything like that.

I understand the thought behind it and as someone who spends most of his time exploring and challenging myself to see how much I can do solo it is a nice thought. But to be honest, most of it is like weapons practice. You find out the most optimal way and then you do that with every character. I bet you hit Trothon etc. with all characters too but the difference is that you know what to look at while I still need to look at everything just in case I miss something.

To do like you (imms) did with weapons/defenses practice; making it more difficult to do but keeping the advantage of spamming just makes people more likely to bot/cheat. So if you make it even more difficult for me to hit those exploration points I will of course not think that it will be more fun to spend even more hours spamming (or spending an hour going through an area looking at drawers, tables and mobs and then getting 0 xp because I was the wrong level).

This will not make me less likely to cheat. This will make me more likely to think: I have a limited time in cf and all that time spent spamming (exploration, skills, spells whatever) is time I don't do what I think is fun (interaction, rp, pk, real exploration). So why not look up possible wand spots instead of trying to look at 200 places? Or why not bot the hamsah boats instead of spending 2 real life hours just sitting there and waiting?

Thank you for explaining exactly what I wanted to say.

Yes, yes, we get it.

Reward player X for doing something difficult A that he enjoys.

Players Y and Z complain that they are now *forced* to do A to compete with X.

Don't worry guys, we are going tone down the rewards for doing A and give more rewards for doing B. Then a different set of players can complain about being *forced* to do B.

I mean I love exploring. I've spent so much time (and con) trying to get into Dis solo or trying to figure out Silent tower. I liked the thought behind rewarding that.

I did not think the whole raising the bar to 11+ for some areas and 35+ for other areas to be a big deal. I usually run through the standard lowbie areas that give a lot of xp between 11-20 and the higher areas I do at hero. So this would most likely not affect me at all.

But the idea that information is bad for players because otherwise they abuse it will just encourage information sharing. There is some information that I like that it is secret; quests, puzzles and even the layout of the most secret area explores. I like when there are parts of religions that are secret and that cabal politics is kept in game (even if summaries after the events posted somewhere would be awesome).

But I don't think what is essentially the rules of the game should be secret. The more transparency when it comes to how skills/spells/edges etc. work the better.

And I understand why you want to tone down the exploration/observation rewards (repetetive/can be botted) I just hope that it does not nerf all chars that are not doing the standard cabal/pk/religious routine.

Here's the thing about it:

You don't get exp/obs for doing challenging PVE tasks that are intuitive (IE, dragon slaying).

You get them for looking at things that may or may not be meaningful.

So since you don't know ahead of time what types of things you'll get rewarded for you kinda have to spend time looking at EVERYTHING and identifying what you get paid the most for when you talk to your guildmaster.

After that, it clearly makes sense to script the tedious ones that give the most reward.

To give you a concrete example, Arial City is pretty huge and time consuming to explore and gives you almost nothing in terms of obs/exploration XP. However, if I have invisibility, Mansion of Twilight is an EASY 1400xp or so. Because of that, Mansion of Twilight makes sense to just script and repeat on every character rather than trying (and often failing) to get good XP off of places you haven't been to before.

I think the way to do this that makes more sense instead of hiding all the details is to just make it consistent and challenging. Something too challenging to script (like defeat X mob and everyone involved in the kill must earn > 100 XP off it) and something that's pretty "guessable" - like Mob must be a named mob in an area explore or whatever or drop a highly limited item.

Then it's not bottable, not boring and not obscure.

This is btw the exact same thing as the wand system. I'm going to kill every mage-like NPC I can think of when there's only like 40 spots? But wait, the area has to be empty before I get there? Also, I have to be a non-ghost to spawn the spot? I mean the more obscure you make it the more people *WILL* cheat (Imms included, based on previous experience). Other games are fairly transparent - you need to do X, Y and Z and you will get paid A, B and C - but they make those items sufficiently challenging to justify the rewards. So I don't really buy the whole "We need to make this *MORE* obscure" - no, you just need to not have it so that there's easymode things where you get massive payout based on knowing an obscure keyword somewhere in an area that otherwise doesn't really matter.

Like is it a torrent of bots that you just can't keep up with denying them?

I still don't understand how this is actually a problem.

When you say "botting" do you just mean "every character not actively engaged with spamming tells, says and emotes at everything on the mud"?

Can we get the minimum level on the areas command to be the higher of the two? This is purely for the benefit of people who are new - but let's say you feel its survivable at 35 but the area says 20-51, can you upgrade it to say 35-51?

Hope that makes sense - many (most?) of the areas brackets are related to I think mob levels or somewhat random instead of being consistently based on what level you'd go there to kill stuff at.

This is why I am asking about this. Imagine I'm a new player and I learn about these explore and observe points. I'm new so I am low level, definitely below level 11. I look at the areas list and see '| All | The Seaport of Hamsah Mu'tazz' and I remember there being a bunch of echoes of ships coming and going from that area, I should go explore it. I explore it and discuss with my guildmaster and I get no observation and no exploration. What the frak?!

Does anyone else worry about this sort of thing?

They'd be more worried about getting a weapon better than avg 8.

"The gods are said to smile on those adventurers who seek out the
mysteries and challenges of Thera, braving danger and being of
clever mind. Skilled explorers may occasionally find themselves
gifted with small bonuses of experience points and movement points,
reflecting the learning and conditioning one acquires from one's
travels. Both novices and veterans may benefit in this fashion,
though the challenge to each will affect the reward."

I don't know where it says "check out the ships in hamsah docks bro, you get sweet edgepoints. But do it before you hit PK range and use a script." in there.

I don't worry about your given example at all. I worry more about a newbie getting 0 explore for going to loch Grynmear at level 14 just to see what's past that gate in that city. It's not at all intuitive that the best way to get the exp is by botting the Hamsah docks. "Think of the newbies!" is utterly laughable given the example presented.

After a year playing I never went round hometowns looking at everything because.. They're hometowns, it doesn't make sense that I'd be 'exploring' them and I can't be forced to put up with that kind of grind anyway.

If you ask around IC you will find out very quick some very nice places to go for exploration and observation points. The people, not the helpfiles, are the ones saying "check out the ships in hamsah docks bro, you get sweet edgepoints." Though they chose different words, that's basically what some people have said.

You don't say you worry about my example, then you give an example you do worry about and that isn't very different from mine. Wut?

If you don't explore hometowns, I can guarantee you will be missing some stuff. Maybe not much and not super secret sanctuary potions and anti-magic shell wands, but stuff that can be used as well as quest stuff. To some that may not be worth their time, to others it might be wonderful treasures.

Also I know what's in the hometowns. I've been playing for over a year. Hell if I'm going to farm observation points by looking at every mob in them.

...an example of something that has happened with other areas, and now because of the changes could happen with more areas.

Yet another beating of the dead horse follows.

When I started playing CF, I had no clue about edges, edge points, explore/obs xp. It was a mystery to me for the most part, and I was completely fine with that. It made those things, to me, seem like perks. I didn't know what I was missing by not having 20 edges, but I also didn't care, because I was a newbie playing the game without care about what my character's final sheet looked like.

I just, (And this is probably a novel concept to the people that clamor for complete access to every piece of info there is about CF) played the game back then to enjoy playing the game. I did fine, even if I died a lot. It took me a little while, but I got to the point of being passable, and I had fun along the way. So when people say newbies don't want to put in the effort (or shouldn't have to), my counter is unless you put in the effort and learn to appreciate what CF is, those new players are not going to appreciate CF to begin with.

This whole basis for information being for the benefit newbies is funny to me. Wanting complete info for everyone, for the sake of newbies who don't know all that much about the game by virtue of being new to the game (or know what marginal benefits it confers) and far more likely don't even care because they're not in the powergamer style of play (because who would start playing CF with the mindset of I need to optimize my build and steam roll the mud) is a very weak rationalization for those players who consider the game a grind and want to automate the hell out of it so that basically they can have every char start at lv 11 with x amount of edge points.

I'm glad Daev is keeping it a little vague, cause frankly I think all his attempts at striking a middle ground with people clamoring for more info only makes them expect and demand more from him and the game so that they can avoid playing CF and just play CF in PK only mode. Then they bitch when he takes actions to mitigate an abuse those players are engaging in by scripting/botting the game. Those newbies who engage in that are going to fail to see all that CF has to offer. They are going to see it as the grind those players are claiming the game is. I've said it countless times, those people have no concept of what I think the spirit of CF is really about. If I went to the Seaport, I went and saw stuff. I never once cared about "did I just get obs/exp xp for doing this" I did it because it was interesting, not because of some slight reward it conferred me, which it does even without that because I saw NPCs and I saw gear pieces that maybe I go back later to try and obtain.

People that play CF continually want a challenge and they want the RP environment in which Cf exists. They want the immersion CF can offer. The free info crowd has people that RP supporting it to be sure, but RP is always going to be secondary to them. PK will always be more important than RP when it comes down to it. They're not happy until as far as I can tell, they can maximize their PK viability with every character against every character.

If a bunch of clowns on forums didn't rail against every action Imms and other players take and every imagined slight that gets thrown at them by Imms because they've lost the ability to split IC fom OC, the game would benefit. But they don't care about benefitting CF, they care about benefitting their own characters, under the guise of helping others because it makes them seem less selfish in their desires. If CF isn't worth the time investment to you as a player, that's a choice you make as a person. But CF can not, and should not try to, cater to the demands of every single player. They can't make everyone happy. And if they try to, that'll leave CF in a state where nobody at all is.

Imms try to keep CF entertaining for a majority of players. Maybe we players should adopt that same mindset and respect what they are trying to do and try to base our characters/playing of CF around creating fun for other players just as much as ourselves. Everyone would win. But I just get the sense some players aren't happy unless they are Daevrynesque. He's better than you. He's better than me. Get over it. He has brilliant RP and PK. That's a net plus for the MUD when he plays mortals. I notice nobody ever bitches about his characters when they are in the cabal with him.

I'm just as competetive as the next guy, and I like to win, but this is a friendly game people play for fun at heart. I'm old enough and mature enough to shrug off defeats and lost gear and be able to respect the guy who beat me. I'm still able to enjoy CF, maybe not as much as I once was because the RP has waned a bit, but I still can. I just had to go back to playing how I once did long ago. I'll get annoyed at times, but it is still just a game we all play for fun.

I remember the days when I thought Phoenix Edge was the most amazing thing EVER. I made it a goal to get that thing with my character. Once I did, I was so happy, to thrilled with myself. I was the massive storm giant warrior that could slay dragons! Other players asked me to help them. It was some of the most fun I ever had in any game. I ran all over CF with that guy, and it was amazing. I never once cared about PK, cabals, edges or maximizing characters. I just enjoyd the act of playing.

It's a pity we as players still can't play like that anymore, with that sense of achievement or fun. It's a shame to me that people want so much info out there that people won't be able to even get those same highs when they start playing CF.

Nobody told me Zannon sucked (look at his PBF to see what a newbie hero looks like) but in my eyes he was one of the best characters I ever played. Once Ysaloerye helped me really grasp the RP side of CF, I found my stride. Then I played my first bard. Then my second, and third and so on. I thought I lost it after Salyeris, because both Xiersel and Ursetra made me look at myself as a player, and I knew I was going through the motions, that it just wasn't there for me. I stopped for 6 months or so.

Then I played a goblin because a friend and I made a bet/challenge, and for a few weeks, I had that fun feeling again (to my own surprise), because I played without any expectations at all (which is how you have to play a goblin really). I want to believe, if and when the time comes again, maybe I'll get to have that same enjoyment with another character. But with what FSV and certain players want Cf to become, I have my doubts that the Imms and players in general won't burn out, just as I did, and what I'll come back to find won't be what I recognize as Cf, no matter how similar it looks on the surface.

Man, that got off topic.

Many (most?) of the areas brackets are related to I think mob levels or somewhat random instead of being consistently based on what level you'd go there to kill stuff at.

There's isn't a highly consistent standard for the levels listed on the 'areas' command, which is why we didn't just hard-lock the minimum levels to it. It's been the area author's discretion regarding what levels would 'use' the area, but the definition of 'use' hasn't been consistently enforced over the past two decades. If a low level area sells a couple useful potions, do we mark it "1 10" or "All"? If there's two level 30 NPC shopkeepers in the back, do we mark it "1 30" because someone might kill them? Etc.

We've brought this up for discussion before a couple of times, but I've never seen a CF-wide solution agreed on and implemented.

Also, area guidance covers the whole area, whereas a given Exploration or Observation location can be rated for that room. There are plenty of areas (Emerald Forest, etc.) where large sections are very safe, but other sections aren't. We might decide that some points in an area are fair game for anyone, but other points (that would get a low-level character killed quickly) require a higher minimum level.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

...When I started playing the game many years ago the reason I used that command was basically to see places I could go explore. So I wouldn't put it 1-30 (unless those NPCs were aggro) in the merchant example and I wouldn't put it as All in the potion example because neither of those fits that use case.

The other use cases of "there's a useful item or vendor here at my level" I don't think is something that would ever really work (everywhere would be 'All'). So the most reasonable bracket would be the levels you could explore that area at and have a reasonable chance of survival.

It might be something where a poll on facebook would make sense - what would you expect the level bracket on the areas command to show? As it is right now it's not very useful except for identifying cities and ultra-safe places (all the ones that say 'All' usually).

..and you looked at stuff along the way, and then when you quit you got EXPL/OBS, you went through an area where you were between the min/max.

The fact that they implemented the system the way it is recently means they don't really want people to know how to farm the system.

Purposefully causing more drama over it probably won't get it changed, but might get it removed all together, so if thats your goal you're doing a good job with this troll.

Are you just being an asshole or what? If there is any way to find out without having to explore and then discuss or quit I would like to know. How is that being a troll?