Speaking as a long-time thief player who has played more thieves than any other class (except maybe village warriors), whose thief credentials include being the very first thief kingpin (jolly jonni blackjack) and heroimming as a thief (moligant) I just wonder what the value proposition lies within becoming a current shadow thief in Empire?

Yes this relates to the recent threads over in the battlefields but also to the overall commentary over the last few months and my own personal experience within the shadow cabal as a shadow thief.

As a thief (non-empire) I would say that the vast majority of thefts come from robbing people in protected cities. It is the one place most often you will find people standing around. The second best place to rob people is Eastern as they leave a protected city for what its worth.

Theft requires two things in my opinion (opportunity and knowledge). You have to know what your target is carrying in order to rob them of it of course. And you have to have enough time (opportunity) to rob them - especially if you are doing the classical thief thing and actually trying to STEAL for a living.

I'll point out here that I've never even really relied on BJ to rob people, I just see what they have while in town then follow and steal it.

In the past the mantra of the shadow sect was simply - dont get caught. Obviously that is no longer the case and it is perfectly fine if things have changed. However those changes bring up the question as to what is the value proposition of being an imerial thief nowadays if you can't 'get away unseen' with anything because an invisible God is watching their every move.

Its not like shadow sect powers are all that great to compensate. I'd rather be able to take my chances robbing people in town any day knowing the consequences if im csaught (by the tribunal) over eavesdrop or even having centurions (as a classical stealing thief).

Basically the very name of the class is THIEF - you steal for a living, thats simply what you do. I honestly can't wrap my head around why someone who loves being a thief would give up stealing for a weak set of powers that don't aid them very much in their craft (once again as a classical thief who steals things). Where do you think these thieves learned to be thieves in an IC sense...in cities....

I suppose this means that for myself at least I would never play an Empire thief in the current climate because I would feel way to restricted in terms of stealing. Basically I dont see how you can be called a 'shadow' when you have a 'light' shining down on you from above exposing everything you do in the shadows.


And I understand the bloodoath and order and everything, this isnt a gripe but an honest question - why would you want to be an empire thief nowadays considering your historical skillset can't be used in the best place to use them and you don't get very much in return which considering the class - return on investment is what its all about right.

"Its not like shadow sect powers are all that great to compensate."

Yeah, this I have to point out is so very true. Shadow powers are really awful for actual PVP. Light into shadow had an abysmal success rate for me (I never spammed it to 100%, I'm not sure how to do that easily) and as it was I'd actually trade that for blade of the codex in a heartbeat. Eavesdrop was cool though but without light into shadows being really reliable it was hard to pull off against enemies.

Eavesdrop as an internal spying tool was kinda meh just given the reality of the situation. Like, let's say you eavesdrop a guy and you don't like what you hear - so what? Unless you're shadow lord or emperor you probably can't do anything about it anyway.

This will be fairly brief, I'll post more later. As a shadow thief, you can do all sorts of shady things without punishment. As a bloodoath thief, you cannot. I've been working on getting some updates made to the empire cabal to reflect said "changes"

Gave some real thought as to what could compensate while keeping in the entire 'shadow' theme and I believe I came up with one or two really good ideas....

This is based on an extension of eavesdrop basically which deals with 'communications'. Shadow sect in my mind are basically spies. One thing spies do is co-opt the communications of the enemy in order to send false signals and messages. So here is two ideas based on that -

Co-opt - Using the 'Co-opt' skills allows an imperial shadow to secretly cutoff an eavesdropped targets commincations to anyone else but him/herself. In effect the target would communicate as normal and everything would seem to be normal but those communications wouldn't actually be going anywhere.

Fake- Using the 'fake' skill an imperial shadow can send and receive communications for a brief time from whoever they are currently eavesdropping on with any 'faked' identity they choose.

In practice:

Shadowthief is eavesdroipping on Maranwarrior. Shadowthief 'co-opts' target.

Shadowthief successfully 'co-opts' communications!

Maranwarrior uses cabalchannel: Anyone want to travel?

*This doesn't actually goto cabalchannel as the co-opt turns it off but the maranwarrior would still 'see' it as working'

Shadowthief uses who to see which members of the marans around the maranwarriors range are around then uses 'fake' skill when he sees a maranmage the right range.

Fake CB (I imagine you will need to let them 'fake <channel>' Maranmage.

Shadowthief has successfully faked the identity of 'maranmage' and sent a fake cabal message!

Shadowthief sends fake cabal message: I wouldn't mind grouping, lets head to the drow city, I'll meet you there!'

And the maranwarrior would see that come over as a normal cabal message and trot off to a likely ambush or opportunity for the theif to rob him outside of town.

Co-opt would only work on 'distance' communications of course like CB, TELL, etc.

I don't think there are many people who actually believe shadow sect powers are great. I am one of the people who also thinks they are pretty awful (apart from light into shadow). There are a few ideas I am going to try and kick around upstairs to try and make shadow sect more interesting without making it a quasi-chaotic I don't give a hoot about the Empire or its Laws branch of an otherwise rigid and well-structured orderly cabal.

Piercing Gaze, Imperial Spies, and eavesdrop alone are absurdly nice powers. Especially for assassins.

I always thought Piercing Gaze was one of the least well designed powers in the game, in that it's an awesome power for a Black Sect Emperor on a roll, even a tougher Blade Emperor, but as an actual Shadow I'm very meh on it.

I do agree that Imperial Spies is underrated, though.

Agreed re: piercing gaze, it doesn't fit the shadow sect. Imperial spies sounds great but sadly I never got to it. Eavesdrop is good tactically like one or two times in your entire chars life - most people don't do all their scheming in Galadon Market []. And to be honest, by now I kinda know when to expect a raid or etc.

I loved piercing gaze because you can assassinate rangers, outlanders and transmuters with it.

I loved eavesdrop because you always knew what your assassinate targets were going to do next, sometimes before they did.

And I loved spies because you can't assassinate marked prey.

I dunno, I loved all of the shadow sect powers on an assassin. I haven't played a scion Mage, but shadow powers were the best cabal powers I've ever had. I got tremendous use out of every one.

That said, on a thief, probably not so dreamy.

"I loved eavesdrop because you always knew what your assassinate targets were going to do next, sometimes before they did."

In theory that'd be great but usually when I was stalking people they were :

1) In a group ranking/fighting things dropping aoes or fighting things that did AOEs and I didn't want to stand in the same room as them.

2) In their guild or cabal HQ for a long period of time.

3) Traveling around the road and I just barely got enough stalks out to get them.

It was never really the situation where I was in the same room as them, eavesdropping them and them telling me where they're going next.

Maybe I didn't play enough hours or dedicate enough time to assassinate. Now that you can't stalk at the Inn though I really couldn't get any mileage out of eavesdrop.

Well, they got to rest sometime while ranking, right?

I have about five really good memories of eavesdrop doing something awesome that I 100% could never have had without it. I can't say the same for deathblow or lightforge or chameleon.

Like, one time I was ranking with one of Torak's characters, practiced eavesdrop on him, and found out lo and behold, he was a scion trying to plot a betrayal against me with his cabalmates, telling them where to find me. Wouldn't have happened without eavesdrop. Another time, I'm stalking some guy in that marsh area outside Kiadana whenever his group rests, and they mention they want to head out to spirits just before recalling. Wouldn't have happened without eavesdrop. And so on.

It's not a hammer in a world full of nails, but it's a tool that (1) I found extremely useful, and (2) can't be replicated.

As for imperial spies, there are some extremely assassination averse people I 100% would not have assassinated without it. It is obviously very useful to be able to track someone, and mark of the prey does not play well with assassination. Again, can't replicate that.

Piercing gaze, I did manage to assassinate a transmuter when he popped out of duo using stalks that were entirely acquired while he was in duo, and an outlander shaman that was chamo'd the whole time. Can't remember getting a ranger with it, but probably did. Again, can't replicate that.

Overall, I can't imagine a better set of cabal powers for an assassin.

Shadow? Meh.

But my assassins are more like warrior monks, I don't even ever try to assassinate people.

Let thieves and assassins choose between shadow and blade sect for people that don't want more subtle powers.

you should suggest it to an imp.

But only the native classes able to get onto the council

That's fair enough. I think it boils down to how much you utilize assassinate versus how far up the imperial command chain you get. I tend to like things like deathblow because they'll win me 20-30 fights over a character lifetime instead of 1-3 really, really good kills. And I don't need to be shadow lord to get it.

The other sects get fairly useful powers for every fight, like black shroud and blade of the codex and dark feast.

I'd leave eavesdrop as a freebie, keep imperial spies (I really wish I could've gotten that) and probably improve light into shadows performance at 70-85% range and maybe put in one power that legitimately helps shadows in a straight fight. Piercing gaze tends to be really good for emperors, I could take it or leave it personally - maybe buff it to also do something more useful for shadowy types like prevent familiars from seeing them on where while hidden/sneaking or something.

NT

I couldn't agree more with you.

Light into Shadows. To not be fogged means you can steal and steal and steal. Yea it takes practice to be the most effective but what doesn't?

Eavesdrop. Single most powerful skill inside the Cabal for internal politics. Absolutely insane when it comes to raids and tracking or simply being a "scout" for the cabal.

Imperial Spies. Need I say more? It will track people when most people don't realize. And is as comparable to the Provost's warnings from guards around Thera but better. With high % it will tell you what weapons they are wearing and what condition they are in if I recall correctly. It's awesome.

Piercing Gaze. I absolutely loved it. You walk to the edge of promisy with it and see 3 camo'd figures you didn't even know were around. Instant payoff. Besides the countless other uses.

The skills are amazing if used to your advantage. I admit they aren't gonna make you a PK legend, but they will make you far better at being a "scout" or the "eyes and ears" of the Empire.

I can't help but wonder if those who think they aren't up to snuff have ever had this skill set and/or knew what they were doing with them in general. It so easy to call a hammer ####ty if you are trying to use it wash windows.

gr

I distinctly remember it, it may not be 'recorded' as such but he was the very first kingpin. I remember 'the Boss' speaking to me in the Galadon guild at the time, I remember the fact that there were not any Kingpins prior to that. I was the first. Jolly Jonni Blackjack, I'm sure someone can prove it, I won't go through the hoops to myself


I just seriously without question know I was the first because I remember to a certain extent when they changed over to how the thief guild is run now and there weren't any kingpins before Jonni...I dont even think you can find my character to prove it though....this was before you could pay your way to being Kingpin, the Imms just titled you and I don't even remember if I had the blackball ability....but I did have the title of kingpin of galadon and nobody before that had that title....

CON) Jonni the Master Thief, Galadon Crime Lord
Author Death_Angel



Tue May 1 02:39:24 2001


4 o''clock PM, Day of Freedom, 4th of the Month of the Long Shadows on the Theran calendar Jonni perished, never to return.

Race: arial
Class: thief
Level: 47
Alignment: Neutral
Ethos: Chaotic
Cabal: None, None
Age: 47
Hours: 375
PK Ratio: 7% (closer to 100% is better)

Since you went through the trouble of looking it up, you could look up the fact Nyranjvol and I were the very first elites of the guild. They changed the name...doesnt change what it stood for unless you are being very technical.

http://forums.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?5,1019745,1019762#msg-1019762

n/t