I've noticed a few people getting extremely frustrated with people out of their pk range summoning away their hard earned zombie armies. I know it's been asked in the past, but I wouldn't hurt to bring it up again. Could it change so out of range people can't summon a necros army? There's a swarm of hero paladins right now that can make any necromancer NOT want to play. Just trying to enhance the funstick.

Thoughts?

Do the imms feel there is a problem here that warrants a change?

I personally just want something to stop paladin/shaman X from logging on, seeing a lvl 33 necro on who, but no enemies in his range (or even if there are), typing c summon zombie;!;!, c summon ghoul, c summon golem, c summon construct, wrath 1.;!;!;!;!;!;!, nightlaugh, quit.

Go to an area with Zombies, Kill ALL the zombies.
Go to another area with Zombies. Kill ALL the Zombies.
Repeat the same with Ghouls golems and constructs (last one I can't think of many, but they exist)

Now they have to pick through the stack summon 11.zombie 12. 13. and so on before they can even find your zombies.

The second one gets summoned away - go back and kill more zombies to ruin their efforts.

What about this possible solution?

There is code in place to determine what percent damage was done to a PC that killed it. If this code extends to NPCs, maybe there can be a sliding scale of 'how much damage was done to this zombie by the necromancer' vs. 'how easy is it summon the zombie away.' Maybe if a certain threshold is reached (90%+) then a Kaubris' Anchor type of spell might be placed on the zombie when it's created. If the necromancer has non-class specific protections like sanctuary or receives any out of range healing it invalidates this process and the zombie is treated as regular and summonable.

Or.. scratch all that, and give necromancers a Kaubris' Anchor spell to retain up to two of their undead. So greater undead + one zombie.

That seems like a nice balance in risk vs. reward for both the necromancer and his range. If a necro spends the whole session making a high level zombies, he probably deserves a bit of a higher power scale to roll with. Like Thrak was saying, having zombies doesn't necessarily equate to more kills, but I imagine those who take the time to earn them should enjoy their benefits.

I have never played necromancers, but I have faced many low/mid ranks with hero armies who just wiped the flour with me. I think (as most of you have said) a necromancer should be able to keep an army of reasonable strength, but there should be some ways to control the army power with the help of elders, so their younger enemies can find a chance facing them.

I was thinking about a few solutions. One could find a mixture of them as the best answer too:

1. A level X char has a level range (Let's say X-5) access to summoning under control zombies.
2. A necromancer can have an anchor like spell (Maybe not even an spell, just a passive factor used in the background) to protect summoning his/her zombies. The lower level and fewer zombies you have, the higher chance of keeping them. Might even make a necromancer being able to have one same level zombie impossible to be summoned.
3. Others out of PK range, can summon the zombies if in same area as the necromancer. So, force the elders to walk side by side of their lower level friend to be of any help.
4. Make summoning out of range zombies a real pain. Huge amount of mana, zombies who fart on summon and make the summoner ill? (I don't know what is the elixir you all talk about, but it seems the solution I am talking about, if it does give reasonable downside)

Certainly there are some simple ways to protect your zombie army, a few of which will discourage all but the most onerous summoners.

In my experience, other necromancers tend to be more problematic than paladins.

If you would perhaps rework the elixir to be more of a deterrent to out of range summoning, I would feel better about it.

The elixir just doesn't do enough damage to warrant losing the zombie for it, and anyone with protections, let alone heroes, are going to laugh at it.

If it maybe only exploded when they got summoned out of range, but it did huge damage and scourge? Maybe a different elixir for that?

But if you have a better solution that doesn't prevent me from pking with my zombies, I'd very much like to hear it.

To be fair, I didn't envision the elixir as being a mid-ranged necromancer's weapon against heroes. Rather, I imagined it being something more like the reverse of that.

EDIT: Additionally, I wasn't thinking of the elixir as a means of protection.

You can't summon out of range zombies unless they're left alone somewhere.

>You can't summon out of range zombies unless they're left
>alone somewhere.

This is false. You can't attack zombies who are in the same room as their out-of-your-pk-range controller, but you can sure summon them away .

Is problem the right word? Grief? Either way, with a few paladins or shamans working together they can easily ruin a necromancer's day with no risk to them. I don't play necromancers often, but seeing it happen I try putting myself in their shoes and can only conjure the thought, "that ####ing sucks."

Is there a reason for this design that I'm not seeing?

But yeah mechanically it shouldn't be allowed. A paladin hero *should* be doing this to help out lower level players, for RP reasons, but it'd be ideal if these were flagged no-summon post-animate. It'd have a downside for the necromancer too but probably a worthwhile trade.

It is ruining the fun stick of a non enemy (they aren't in your pk) with no gain to oneself, not even rp wise. It leads to no interactions, and you can't even tell who the one who summoned them away is. The only reason c summon zombie is used out of range is to weaken someone you cannot even fight, and because you don't have to move an inch to do it.

Nothing is less fun than having your hard work taken away by someone that you can do absolutely nothing about. It is even worse when it requires no investment on their part, and there is zero risk to them.

If the elixir did a huge amount of damage, maybe a % of hp or something through protections, I could see it being a solution, but a massacres is not.

Now is there anything that could be changed to make it more fun for necros but still have it balanced*?

*I hate using that word, can't think of a better way to word it though.

I know that once I got my pimp water sprites or storm commander army going in the late 20s or 30s, I could steamroll anyone in my range without the blink of the eye. Thats not that fair either

This is good stuff.

With Palmer at low levels, I rarely used zombies much, preferring to spend the time finding people and killing them. I used the zombies to level and get eq and wands.

With Tchalla at low levels I got all my own zombies and routinely had an army of 50+ level zombies. I got fewer kills than I did as Palmer.

level 25 zombie? hero can't summon.

level 50 zombie? hero can summon.

I hit on the same idea this morning, though I'm not 100% sure yet if I like it or if I think it's necessary.

Elsewhere in this thread is most of what I would immediately point out -- it's rough having your zombies summoned by heroes when you're 25, but it's also rough having a 25 necro in range who someone fed a pair of level 60 corpses.

nt

up to level 30, 2 levels from 31 to 40, 3 levels from 41 to 47, 4 levels from 48 to 51?

I'm not sure if that would balance things out, but personally I laugh with glee when I do a successful Zombie summon and get someone's storm giant.

Necromancer armies are already overpowered by my thinking. I like that they can be whittled down until something can be done about them.

Its risk and reward. If you work hard for the zombies you should be able to get them and roll your range. On the other hand, you should be worried about protecting them by using water, cursed areas, and guilds. It's always been fine honestly.

.

As a paladin, I'm supposed to let you walk around with a set of zombies killing the heck out of people in my cabal with them when I have a means to remove them from you?

It's not griefing, it's doing what you're supposed to be doing, protecting others.

There is clearly an investment by the way...considering you're spending time and mana doing it. As a necro you can always summon them back.

I don't like the mechanic any more than you but it's not griefing. Multi-killing is griefing. This doesn't rate anywhere near that.

Balance of power. Necromancers can be level 25, have a hero kill 2 storm giant commanders, and be running around with absurd level zombies. Water sprites are the same deal. A matter of a fact, rarely does a necromancer have zombies in his level range. Would it really be fair to allow that to happen if there was no way to counter it? You think someone in his level range is going to take him out with level 57 zombies in tow?


The thing about summoning zombies away, is that it provides a checks and balances. You can prevent it. You can go to a cursed area, you can leave them in a guild for a while. No, you cant just run around as a lowbie necromancer with zombies way above your level range with no risk. Shouldn't happen, and probably not going to happen. You can raise zombies to wreck your range with effortlessly, but theres the risk of losing them to summoners. You get your pie, but you still get fat from it. Thats just life man.

If you want to make it so necro zombies can't be summoned out of range, then I suggest about a 3-4 level cap on the zombie being raised in relation to the necromancers pk range. Remove the cap at spectre maybe, so you can get the dope ones. Thats the ONLY way it would be fair to remove out of range summoning, if they couldn't get zombies that were much higher if at all higher than their level. Doesn't sound as fun that way does it? Probably not, but it would be fair.

I'm glad you brought up the high level zombie mobs. I agree there should be some sort of cap on the level of zombie you can have at different degrees of levels. I would love to hear anything Daevryn has to say about the mechanics here. Maybe there's something we are overlooking?

discuss

Necromancers can be level 25, have a hero kill 2 storm giant commanders...

What do you see as the most common scenario in which this occurs?

I got tells all the time from people ranking on the mountain to come raise a zombie, even from non scions. I almost always could get a cabal member to do it, and I imagine in empire or tribunal it would be even easier.


The lone necromancer may have issues getting aid, but even they aren't without the ability to get rocking zombies at level 28 with water sprites, by 36 war weary storm giants are easily obtainable with wall of putrid flesh and corpse thrall.


They're a tad more difficult to raise, you'll fail more often but once they get up it's open season on your range for the most part with even minimal protections. I think it's safe to say that any reasonably skilled veteran is going to have elite zombies one way or another, only the new players will lack to get strong followers.

Because it seems weird to me that so many eerily similar Necro's have the same army.

Meaning that I had just had a fire AP in scion, had helped Zynzyn along with his lich quest, and when he failed, having been around the whole Davarrah and shadow plane quest, I knew that Scarabaeus was looking for a lich for whatever reason. All of scion knew he was looking for a lich. So I rolled one knowing that if I did well, and stuck to my guns, there was a good chance I would lich. Scion was powerful out the ass at the time, with a slew of badass characters (including Daevs conjie that was wrecking shop), so I was basically thrown armor and zombies whenever I wanted from a young age.

So yeah, I sorta knew from before I rolled him I was gunning hard to fill a specific role that an immortal run quest was looking to fill. Had that not been the case, I seriously doubt I would have got the lich quest I did.

You don't need ooc contacts to get zombies. Heroes know if they hook you up with them, you'll clean out your range/kill lowbie retrievers/remember them when you're that badass undead for it. I've never had a necromancer zombies weren't offered to in the low ranks.

Seriously save your typing and thoughts for someone else

No more ####s given there.

AS

Di immortales! Eras ingens molestia!

Honestly, if you're not, you're his stalker and trying very hard to mimic him Single White Female style. Too many of the speech patterns and particular hang-ups are exact.

Role + I am a necromancer born in Galadon.

role + My Heroic friends have cordially invoted me to the mountain.

role + There are giants there. Storm giants. They are now dead.

role + I make storm giant zombies and it's all kosher because I am not talking to my Bro's behind the scene to conveniently forget to sacrifice their corpses after they randomly decided to visit the volcano at the very moment I did.

role + I will join Scion, or Empire depending on what they role next.

role add

Did you ever watch the Disney film Bambi? Well just in case I'll fill you in on a little life lesson.


"If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at allllllll."

And has more of a deleterious affect on the atmosphere than say your OOC bud giving you a hero set right out of chargen. At least short term.

So again. He asked and I answered. You should take your own advice.

It's similar to my plan.

i thought they could only be summoned out of range when not at the side of the necromancer. is that no longer the case?