Just a few thoughts I have on the subject. First of all I acknowledge that it is very powerful that you still get vigilance and guardcall when you don't have the scales but that just means you get to sit on your arse more hours.

Let us compare retrieving from the spire versus retrieving from the tree:

Retrieving from the tree (which kind of applies to all cabals):

1. We cant see who opposes us.
2. We have to take leap of a faith that there is no snares, quicksand and all sorts of other assorted death traps there.
3. If/When you get to the huntress, you have to deal with bioempathy and trepidation, from out of PK people.
4. You have to flee? You flee into a forest semi-maze. Woe is you if you have insects upon you.
5. You are a newbie and don't know the way through the semi-maze? You are dead....don't even try.
6. Provost or Vindicator bringing guards? Turns them against us!

Retrieving from the Spire (if you are not wanted, and also kinda applies to all cabals):

1. You can see us.
2. You can flee and be actually protected by us by in the high street Galadon. Thirsty? Let me buy you a coffee whilst you heal to full.
3. No magistrates have any power to use against you, in PK range or not.
4. You are a newbie? No problem magistrates will protect you on the high street, even whilst you mock us.

Moving on, to tribunal powers. Manacles suck unless those you use them on are low ranks. They have some utility against high ranked mages I admit, but for warrior types you might aswell just mark, caltraps, boneshatter, claw, dirt, slow and allsorts of way more useful things them.

Moving on to getting the scales. Its easy. Especially for agile classes. You just sit there and dodge everything. Compare this to getting the fetish: You are lucky to come out of there with just thornheart, spores and 50% mvs. And bringing your special guards to the tree? Forget that, the spirit will just turn them against you. Compound that with the difficulty of retreiving the scales from the outlanders.

What is the solution? I propose the following:

1. Move the spire out of town, so we can attack retrievers outside of the spire.

2. Give the Executioner the ability to apply bloody shackles randomly to anyone who attacks it.

3. Make the dark forest in prosemy not at all maze like, or move the tree to to somewhere where it isn't a semi-maze.

4. Make special guards waaaayyy less traitorous.

I haven't read every single post in this thread, because there is a lot of stuff and most of it just seems silly to me. So I want to just take a moment and ask a couple questions from you Bharhum so I can get a better perspective on this whole thing.

1) If you were not a warrior, would most of these problems you are talking about be an issue?

If not being a warrior makes most of these issues go away, then the issue isn't the cabal dynamic. It is merely a matter of not everything is easy for everyone, and you will have a hard time selling the idea that it should be that way.

2) Have you ever played an Outtie to hero for an extended period of time, or fought against Trib when they have an active/deadly force at hero?

If the answer is yes, then you probably wouldn't think raiding the Spire is as much of a cakewalk as you currently do. I fairly recently had a Tribunal where I made both successful defenses of the Spire, and retrievals with opposition. Part of that was possible due to class stuffs, which kind of points back to the answer I put for question 1.

I think a better issue that needs to be addressed isn't how to alter the dynamic of the Outtie vs Trib raids but more a way to make the Tribunal cabal more interesting/exciting for its members. The way I see it, Trib is a very newb friendly cabal who pulls the occasional rare super high caliber player. Outtie is not a very newb friendly cabal with a far wider range of available pk targets and for those two reasons it pulls a lot more pk competent players which makes them far riskier to raid and retrieve against by default.

Thankyou for your response and questions, I appreciate it. I hope to address you points well:

"1) If you were not a warrior, would most of these problems you are talking about be an issue?"

Yes. Though I must stress that my ideas are not based on what bharhum the warrior magistrate would like, but on what I the individual cf player of multiple characters thinks.

For example, I could be a hero invoker scion with full abs and I would be still make the same arguements. (or at least I hope so, obviously I am slightly biased to bharhums point of view currently)

"2) Have you ever played an Outtie to hero for an extended period of time, or fought against Trib when they have an active/deadly force at hero?"

Too hero Yes...for extended periods No.

"If the answer is yes, then you probably wouldn't think raiding the Spire is as much of a cakewalk as you currently do."

I didn't say it was a cakewalk. I compared raiding/retreiving the spire/tree in my original post to contrast them. Specifically I made reference to buying retreivers coffee in galadon.

I also made mention of the concept of 'fleet in being' (wiki it) where a naval fleet can blockade you without leaving its home port. To retrieve from or attack the tree you need to make a leap of faith that nobody is there or have several friend with specific class skills/spells to help you.

I don't know about you but spending an hour to get sufficient information to make attacking the tree a viable prospect is time I could be doing fun things. Basically the tree is blockading the spire (and other cabals for that matter) because (usually) the sunwarden will take it in the morning then when everyone else wakes up they spend the afternoon trying to figure out who is there facing them.

Many people are saying 'But if they are WANTED!', in which case yes, the spire would be totally hardcore to retrieve from.

But the fact is there arn't any hardcore criminal outlanders these days (well there is Nyst I suppose...never forget Nyst). The player base is too veteran for that, so you get ridiculous situations like this:

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=50993&mesg_id=51050&page=

"Part of that was possible due to class stuffs"

Quite right, my hero treenerds (Bharhums name for outlanders!) were rangers. I got to just camo and wait.

"but more a way to make the Tribunal cabal more interesting/exciting for its members"

I totally agree. My ideas were more orientated towards game balance outlander v tribunal, but I say F all that if there are ways to make tribunals more fun.

"Trib is a very newb friendly cabal"

I disagree. Might be easy to get into (or was, Nopilopil might have different ideas), but it is definately not newb friendly.

And let us be realistic, how many newbs are around these days? I've been playing CF on or off for almost 20 years, and many would rightly consider me a newb.

"Outtie is not a very newb friendly cabal"

I agree, but I must stess again, how many newbs are there these days?

"with a far wider range of available pk targets"

Which is exactly why the veteran player base go for it. For the same reason that people go for battlerager berserkers.

I must stress I don't want to generalise here that players are doing it just do get pk counts, and there is nothing wrong with pk! pk'ing is awesome! What my arguements are about are that...come on guys, we know you are likely vets, you know we are likely vets, cant the magistrates have some more of the fun stick too?

If you think spending an hour to prepare to attack the tree is boring, do you not think sitting camo in an area waiting for an hour for someone to show up is exciting?

The fact of the matter is that most of the time outlanders are not all sitting at the tree. You also don't have any real need to retrieve either as a tribunal. You can control the actions of the outlanders because of those 2 things. They can't be everywhere at once.

You also seem to think that defenders being around means you can't suceed. Most of the time if they are not at the tree you can kill the huntress before they can even get on the arkham continent. Even if they are there just fight them and fallback (they don't ALL have insects).

And a full ABS scion invoker shouldn't care unless there are like 7 defenders, they can just waltz in and blast away with almost no risk, even if there are insects in play.

Having played the Outlander cabal every time we got an item people would rush immediately to camp at the tree.

It's safe to say for all intents and purposes it is never undefended. And when it is, insects is a death sentence.

Most of your posts on this thread are irrelevant to the majority of situations other players are going to face.

It just so happens a young(ish) shaman was able to make the captain writhing against the provost and two hero magistrates, one of the hero magistrate being an invoker who could harm said shaman.

The shaman also had multiple Imperials who could harm him, and they tried. All he had to do is flee and rest outside in complete safety. This must have gone on for at least an hour. I even offered him coffee whilst he was under tribunal protection, do you see how completely rediculous that is?

Now consider the opposite. Suppose a young(ish) shaman went to the tree to retrieve the scales. He cant see the Sunwarden, or the hero warrior nor the hero invoker who he can harm.

I think we all know what would happen to that young(ish) shaman.

I think this illustrates my point.

>It just so happens a young(ish) shaman was able to make the
>captain writhing against the provost and two hero magistrates,
>one of the hero magistrate being an invoker who could harm
>said shaman.
>
>The shaman also had multiple Imperials who could harm him, and
>they tried.
>

Now what if that shaman had been WANTED? He would not only have faced Imperial interlopers, he would've faced the Provost guards, as well as your guards and the other hero magistrates guards. How, in any reasonable sense, could that be fair? And how did he get unWANTED? Why, he died, and if he died to a Tribunal, at the very leas, he lost all his weapons.

So while they get a little bit of a free pass by fleeing while not wanted, they get a triple dose of pain if they are.

That kind of illustrates my point. It's not as one sided as you seem to think it. Are there specific situations that frustrate you? Of course there are, on every side. But try playing a ranger in Outlander and then revisit this topic.

Pretty much. Outlanders are supposed to be pretty frequently criminals. It's part of the cabal. They're also supposed to regularly attack you in town. I haven't played outlanders, I played Sylvan back in the day and as a Sylvan ranger you got exactly zero (zilch) powers other than strengthen I guess that worked in the cities.

So as a criminal you'd be in civilized territory, without half your class skills, no ability to lag, spamming nothing but serpent strike with your dodge completely gimped by manacles.

And while the leader powers are really good, if you're *NOT* a leader and especially as a ranger Sylvan powers were mostly just for show. Your class abilities outclassed them by a mile. Outlanders at least have it a tad better in that regard. With this I'm referring to after wall of thorns and insects got taken away...so you had camo, wind walk, strengthen, bioempathy, that thing that heals the land and beastcall.

"Now what if that shaman had been WANTED"

Sure all kinds of bad things. Be he would have the option of knowing that and staying away. The same cant be said for the theoretical youngish shaman going to the tree..

But he wasn't WANTED. So I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

"But try playing a ranger in Outlander and then revisit this topic"

How do you know I haven't? Strange that you say ranger, because a ranger is by far the easiest class imho to be an outlander with.

For all you know I am Nyst! (I am not Nyst).

Though I do totally play Ekaerok, honest.

Okay, this made me LOL at the end.

As for ranger being the easiest, I would say that is somewhat true if you don't mind being bored out of your mind 75% of your life to get a few snare/ambush kills. It is much easier to play a shifter or warrior in outlander than a ranger, as at least you can retrieve/raid without being severely gimped.

A ranger is perhaps the easiest to play Outlander with (hence why they are a significant proportion of the cabal) but they also get the fewest benefits from it and suffer the most detriment to their fighting ability when they raid/retrieve at other cabals because none of the cabals themselves are actually in wilderness. Hence many of their class skills get nerfed when trying to do something like raid.

I've seen only a few rangers who could successfully solo raid at hero, even without opposition, without having to retreat mid-raid and rest and those who could were largely prep-masters.

I've played a ton of rangers and retrieving at the Spire against any opposition was always a pain. Doable if the opposition was particularly weak like a healer, but a pain nonetheless. It'd be like a warrior going into a fight with one hand tied behind their back.

Now retrieving against rangers at the Tree is a scary proposition but that would seem to balance out the pain of rangers having to retrieve on civilized ground.

>"Now what if that shaman had been WANTED"
>
>Sure all kinds of bad things. Be he would have the option of
>knowing that and staying away. The same cant be said for the
>theoretical youngish shaman going to the tree..
>
>But he wasn't WANTED. So I don't understand what point you
>are trying to make.

WANTED is one of the Spire powers. One that isn't lost when the Scales are gone. Ignoring the impact of WANTED is just ludicrous because it's pretty much the only cabal power that allows level 51 players to kill anyone in the game.

I'm have trouble understanding why you just keep ignoring the influence of it. When you say they have the option of staying away, doesn't that also apply to Tribunal retrievals? Perhaps even moreso since you don't really lose anything but the shortcuts between protected towns.

"Ignoring the impact of WANTED is just ludicrous"

I'm not ignoring it.

"just ludicrous because it's pretty much the only cabal power that allows level 51 players to kill anyone in the game."

You make it sound like its a power to pwk someone instantly anywhere in the game.

"When you say they have the option of staying away, doesn't that also apply to Tribunal retrievals?"

I think it is you who are one ignoring things. Mainly ignoring the points I made about retrieving tree versus tribunal at the very post post.

>I think it is you who are one ignoring things. Mainly
>ignoring the points I made about retrieving tree versus
>tribunal at the very post post.

Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but your original post was in a sense saying that you thought retrieving Spire vs. Tree was unbalanced and needed mechanistic changes to make it more fair.

Then you go on through the entire thread and ignore one of the big Tribunal powers and the very negative consequences it has on players as if it shouldn't be part of the discussion about balance.

If you want those other things, then Wanted should no longer trigger autoattacks from any mobs. Otherwise you are intentionally gimping the Outlanders to the point where they will simply avoid the Spire and cities entirely just to avoid the hassle. That would be excessively boring, IMHO.

P.S. if you don't think 51 level guards and lieutenants don't feel like PWK then you've never been a low to mid-level anything WANTED.

Unless this lowbie shaman is within range of someone with insects who is also on, he can always just word.

The only thing I'd mention is that it'd be interesting if the mechanics weren't such that they scare people away from raiding. Raiding can be good for the PVP dynamic - right now unless I have locate object I'm not going to solo raid Outlander.

But retrievals are much worse on Outlander than on Tribunals, except maybe at hero against people with insect.

ouch

Don't drag me into this, I know you only showed up at Galadon so you could come here and complain.

I apologise, I did not mean to drag OOC matters IC, I hope it didn't negatively impact your game and if it did I sincerely apologise.

Because it reminds me of how I often felt as a fairly frequent WANTED Outlander in the past (i.e. that the other guys had an unfair advantage).

If someone from the Spire comes to retrieve (not counting the few who can bring Lieutenants), they face no aggressive creatures blocking their path, they have no out-of-range guards attacking them and they only face a fairly modest range of cabal powers ranged against them, the most powerful of which is, arguably, the ability to hide (chameleon). Seriously, that's the most common cabal power you'll face. Bioempathy is only available to a few Outlanders, insects to even fewer. The rest are facing you with their class skills.

Probably somewhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of Outlanders are rangers who lose significant class skills when they come to retrieve in the Spire on top of not having any cabal powers to bring to the fight (preps aside). Plus, if you are WANTED, which probably half or more of the Outlanders are at any time, you face the city guards, the guards on the East Road, and out-of-range guards of every Tribunal around. Not to mention wandering into the Executioner wandering the streets -- not fun, even for heroes.

Then throw in the Lieutenants who can come help retrieve for free -- the Huntress doesn't subvert -- and I can't think of any other cabal leaders that keeps such a power even without their item of power.

Finally, the Outlanders are the Spire's only cabal enemy while the reverse isn't true -- Outlanders face Scions and Empire too.

So what you are suggesting is a mechanistic game change to deal with a psychological fear of the unseen enemy. I'd suggest that if you want to make it tougher to raid the Spire you should also get more enemies. Otherwise you asking for the game to be changed so you never get raided and Tribunal holds all the cards vs. Outlander.

Just my 2 cents.

Probably would play it more then. The worst part of being a magistrate isn't retrieving, it's boredom.

Granted, a magistrate can PK outside cabal duty while, say, a rager cannot. But I think it would be nice if cabal duty provided them something interesting to do.

It's been too long since tribunal was at war with another cabal, other than outlander.

"they face no aggressive creatures blocking their path, they have no out-of-range guards attacking them and they only face a fairly modest range of cabal powers ranged against them"

I think you are very out of date.

"So what you are suggesting is a mechanistic game change to deal with a psychological fear of the unseen enemy."

I suppose in a way.

"I'd suggest that if you want to make it tougher to raid the Spire you should also get more enemies."

We already have enough enemies. Any nexan/ battlerager/ outlander/ someone-who-thinks-you-look funny need only use the who command to find you.

"Otherwise you asking for the game to be changed so you never get raided and Tribunal holds all the cards vs. Outlander."

No, I am asking that outlander doesn't hold all cards.

What if the T formation at the executioner were moved to the foyer?

It would make retrieving more difficult as people could flee into a dead end of the T, and by having the executioner at the end of a hall it would make raiding a bit easier.

You correctly understand why it's hard for a Tribunal to deal with Outlander, but you don't seem to be aware of all the reasons it's hard for an Outlander to deal with Tribunal.

Honestly, I would be more enthusiastic about helping you learn where you have advantages to press if you weren't so combative with the people who already responded.

"You correctly understand why it's hard for a Tribunal to deal with Outlander"

Thankyou.

"but you don't seem to be aware of all the reasons it's hard for an Outlander to deal with Tribunal."

I don't think that is true, for all the reasons I have stated. The biggest being the 'fleet in being' concept I mentioned.

"Honestly, I would be more enthusiastic about helping you learn where you have advantages to press if you weren't so combative with the people who already responded."

I am sorry if I seem combative, there is nothing I can do about that. I am trying my best to make point by point rebuttals/agreements to peoples posts.

I'm just saying.

I think Bharhum needs to learn how to adapt rather than expect the game to adapt to him. There is nothing new about this dynamic and folks have successfully been dealing with it for ages. Many good, sound, logical arguments and suggestions have been made for his benefit. Instead of listening/trying/etc, he has instead decided to do what he calls "rebutting" the arguments.

As if saying "did you even read me bro?" is a rebuttal.

"I think Bharhum needs to learn how to adapt rather than expect the game to adapt to him."

That is NOT what I am asking for.

"There is nothing new about this dynamic and folks have successfully been dealing with it for ages."

So? Just because something is a tradition does not make it correct.

"Many good, sound, logical arguments and suggestions have been made for his benefit."

Yes I particularly liked Ekaeroks perspectives.

"Instead of listening/trying/etc, he has instead decided to do what he calls "rebutting" the arguments."

I said rebutting/agreeing. Quote mining is dishonest.

"As if saying "did you even read me bro?" is a rebuttal."

I didnt say that. Also did I mention that quote mining is dishonest?

"That is NOT what I am asking for."

Yes it is.

"So? Just because something is a tradition does not make it correct."

You are claiming that it is unbalanced, unfair, hard to deal with, needs to be changed. Precedence shows that it isn't and it doesn't.

"Yes I particularly liked Ekaeroks perspectives."

Me too, for the couple I have read.

"I said rebutting/agreeing. Quote mining is dishonest."

You SAID that, but you didn't actually do it. It wasn't a quote, it was a paraphrase.

"I didnt say that. Also did I mention that quote mining is dishonest?"

Again paraphrasing, and you did.

NT

Ultimately, when 90% of what I have to tell someone is various flavors of "You're wrong", the fact that they aren't seriously considering the counterpoints anyone is making, many of which are the same points I would make, is enough for me to know it isn't a wise use of my time.

The following are my personal opinions, formed from regularly being a criminal and raiding the spire.

It can be very easy to very hard to raid the spire. Any class that does not tank well can get eaten alive by having the executioner call a lot of guards and having a low level tribunal slap on manacles. Without retreat or shapeshifter fly it can be very hard to get out of the spire with two rooms to flee badly into. I remember dying once to bloody shackles and a vindicator while lowbies used their guards chased me around to keep me from being able to walk out cleanly.

Retrieving from the spire is relatively easy if you are not a criminal. I wouldn't mind seeing people become criminals for retrieving honestly, even if it was only after a certain rank. If you are a criminal, you can get pounded on by guards from all directions. I really don't feel their needs to be much adjustment there.

It can be okay to very hard to raid the Tree. The spirit calling insects and all sorts of nasty druid supplications can get quite ugly as they stack.

It can be okay to very hard to retrieve from the Tree. A fairly easy maze in a forest and the plenty of camping rangers with snare and only one direction to flee can be problematic for those without word of recall.

Responses to your statements:
From Tree
1) You can see who opposes you, just have a ranger join or ask someone around until you learn how to figure it out with help. Beyond that, with how closely the current tribunal has been aligned with empire, there are potentially two people from there to spot for you.
2) Snares can be problematic, but in general without insects this isn't too punishing.
3) Bioempathy isn't a big deal past 20-25ish, and trepidation is easily solved by walking to a nearby place.
4) The maze is easy, it really isn't a big deal.
5) Repeat 3
6) So you can't use cabal powers without your item at no consequence? Shucks.

From Spire
1) Actually, you could have five assassins/thieves in there and I would likely not know about it beyond the normal means to check for people.
2) This does stink, but if they are never getting wanted there are bigger issues.
3) This does stink, but if they are never getting wanted there are bigger issues.
4) Okay? This doesn't seem relevant at all.

Manacles suck. This is so false. Manacles are good, but unfortunately your build really isn't designed to synergize with them. Seriously, manacles are good and bloody manacles are great.


All that being said, I think there could be some re-balancing.


Responses to your ideas:
1. Seems very odd to not have the lawmen outside of an actual place of law.
2. This would be ridiculous. Just no.
3. Not a serious issue.
4. Don't necessarily disagree with this.

My ideas:
1. Remove insects from the spirit. Remove side rooms from the around the executioner. I would rather see people attempt to raid on both sides, and giving either side an automatic way to trap an opponent is counter to this.
2. Upgrade the executioner so they hit more often and give it axe spec. A ton of guards while you are getting pincered could be very problematic.
3. Make it so that anyone who sets foot in the spire after level 29 is assumed to be a criminal (unless of course deputized).
4. Make subvert only work if you are a criminal.

I actually think those ideas would be unpopular with the Tree, but at least you would get people attacking more often.

Seeing as how we were long time enemies, I figured I'd give you my thoughts.

At level 20-25 the huntress is pretty much owning you without bioempathy. With bioempathy just taking her down without considering defenders is a problem into the 30's. It can be done through extreme attrition, but might take a large chunk of somebody's login to accomplish.

Speaking as a guy who played an admittedly not very powerful imperial fire giant warrior and smacked himself around with bioempathy past level 30

It has obviously been a while for me, so I'll take your word for it. Still, considering that not only does an outlander have to be on but a good outlander I don't consider this a major issue. When I was a mortal, imperials tended to have enough numbers in low ranks that they would figure out a way to retrieve whether I had someone to give them bioempathy or not. This may have changed recently.

The difficulty of retrieving from the Tree while unopposed in PK range versus bioempathy is I think greatly dependent on class. I was able to do so fairly easily, yesterday, solo as a shaman at rank 21 with bioempathy being used against me. I think it took 30 minutes. I'm by no means an expert player.

Empowerment classes just do far far better in PVE.

Also the Fire Giant I was talking about was from before vuln mental was removed, so bioempathy would have been having a greater impact on him.

Giving executioner axe-spec would go too far, especially with the other
changes which I actually wouldn't mind see implemented:

Everyone that steps into the spire should become wanted.
I wouldn't mind everyone that hits captain become wanted.
I wouldn't mind AI go away unless you're wanted (like CD has mentioned
in the past)
I wouldn't mind subvert working without the fetish.

I think spirit should keep insects, it's a good response to massive raids
by empire or strong scion opposition especially if there are no
leaders on and can lead to people defending more against better odds.

This is a very fractured post. I don't think axe spec would go too far, but I don't know what group of changes you are wanting all together. Considering the number of posts you have already put up, perhaps
consolidate all of your ideas in one post.

I wouldn't mind losing AI unless you are wanted, but I would want a way to become wanted without having to have a tribunal on. As Ekaerok, I TRIED to stay wanted and went for a number of hours before I could find a tribunal to warrant me before. This leaves holes in fighting other enemies.

I really disagree with insects, it just stops solo raiders and large enough empire or scion parties will do it with or without them.

Agreed on the wanted thing. I actively seek out wanted status with all
my outlanders and the times that I'm not flagged coincide with no tribunal
being around to flag me. Stepping into the spire should auto-flag and maybe
hitting the captain too.

The trap rooms inside spire should be removed.
Again I don't mind losing AI when not being wanted.

The parties will raid with spirit casting insects, sure, because they can take it
down extremely quick. But then, the defenders have a reason to stick around
instead of putting up a token defense.

Who is going to solo-raid spirit with outlander opposition and worry
about insects (that remember, can be neutralized) anyway?

Finally, tribunals should *suffer significant penalties* that give them incentive
to retrieve with the loss of their item. If there is no way around this, then none
of these suggestions make sense.

Last I checked it works just dandy til the timer expires. What do you consider neutralized?

Does flso mean having an orb of travel? Not everyone in the game is a 733t inn-gambler haxx0r3d. And even if I was, the last time I had one I accidently used it up thusly: get all corpse;wear all.

I'm ####ing terrible at this game and insects is a non-factor to me. I don't understand why this ability is so scary to people. Do people literally not know how to type n, w, s, e after they flee? Don't let flee/quaff or c 'word' be such a huge crutch.

Can insects kill someone? Sure, if that person gets caught in the wrong spot. No different than if you let a necromancer/AP summon you into a no-exit room and sleep you, or let someone maneuver you into a death trap, etc.

It's not that big of a deal.

Wow...just wow.

I don't know what to tell you. You've been given answers, suggestions, and strategies. The choice to wallow in self-pity or to overcome obstacles is yours to make, none of us can force you.

People with 70 deaths can't really say that "xxx is a non-factor for me." If you're dying all over the place to trip no one takes you seriously when you say a leader power is not a big deal.

Insects is good. It kills lots and lots and lots of people. If you attack the Tree and I've got insects as a ranger I'm going to spam entangle you and you'll run out of movement and die. I can think of like 5 people I've ever fought that could outfight me in the woods as a ranger, mostly ABS invokers and people who could drop 1200 hp flurries and people with ABS + nasty devils.

Just about everyone else is going to die, painfully and horribly.

You give me insects on a ranger or druid in an Outlander defense and I'm going to kill 9/10 people who I land it on, easily, unless they outnumber me 3 to 1 or they're in a limited subset of "power builds" that require ganging. You see the whole point of rangers and druids is that they're weak in civilized territory but they're inherently stronger than everyone else in the wilderness. So if you remove the ability for people to *get away* then it's kinda trivial to capitalize on that.

I agree with the majority of stuff people have said in this thread about Outlander getting the raw side of the deal in raids but when we venture into "well insects are really no big deal" territory is where we depart reality and enter fiction.

-QUOTE-
"People with 70 deaths can't really say that "xxx is a non-factor for me." If you're dying all over the place to trip no one takes you seriously when you say a leader power is not a big deal."
-END QUOTE-

Actually, yes they can, I did, and it isn't. Trip didn't kill me. Insects didn't kill me. Playing the exact opposite of conservative and running into fights everyone knows is unwinnable killed me. Whether your not "you take me seriously" doesn't matter. I could have avoided the vast majority of my deaths. I didn't, because it wouldn't have been playing Aster the way Aster was meant to be played. I understand you look at this game as a big score board. I don't.

-QUOTE-
"Insects is good. It kills lots and lots and lots of people. If you attack the Tree and I've got insects as a ranger I'm going to spam entangle you and you'll run out of movement and die. I can think of like 5 people I've ever fought that could outfight me in the woods as a ranger, mostly ABS invokers and people who could drop 1200 hp flurries and people with ABS + nasty devils"
-END QUOTE-

You will not do that to me. I will be out of the forest and into civilized before you can accomplish it. Civilized terrain is what, 5 steps from the tree? Your cast of entangle is enough for me to flee and get a step or two ahead of you.

-QUOTE-
"You give me insects on a ranger or druid in an Outlander defense and I'm going to kill 9/10 people who I land it on, easily, unless they outnumber me 3 to 1 or they're in a limited subset of "power builds" that require ganging. You see the whole point of rangers and druids is that they're weak in civilized territory but they're inherently stronger than everyone else in the wilderness. So if you remove the ability for people to *get away* then it's kinda trivial to capitalize on that."
-END QUOTE-

Only if those people are idiots and stand there taking it because their flee/quaff command isn't working. If they can't handle walking five steps to get out of your element, then they have no business raiding the tree at that particular time. Let us also not forget that you are taking a talk about an ability and changing it into a talk about an ability when used by a specific class.

-QUOTE-
"I agree with the majority of stuff people have said in this thread about Outlander getting the raw side of the deal in raids but when we venture into "well insects are really no big deal" territory is where we depart reality and enter fiction."
-END QUOTE-

This is the same debate tactic Bharhum is using. Ignore/deny the obvious strategies in favor of supporting an argument.

Fact is, insects are a fun, useful ability. Fact is also, it isn't super powerful and impossible to deal with.

Fiction is, there is no way to deal with insects and once you have them you are dead.

I sincerely doubt you have ever played a successful hero outlander
given what you wrote. Why don't you list some of those chars of
yours?

It should be clear to anyone that has actually played druids
and rangers with insects (obviously not you) that you have
absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

Insects prevents you from using word of recall, teleport, rest, and sleep.

If you don't actually need to use those in a fight while under the affect of insect swarm then you have neutralized the ability.

Easiest way to accomplish this is just to be better/stronger than the outlander leader, if you beat the piss out of them then you don't need to retreat.

If you can't beat them straight up then you need to be picking the location of your battle so that you are able to retreat without using magical transportation. If they really do have your number it should not be all that difficult to get them to chase you, potentially into a situation where you can turn the tables against them.

flso was the one who made the comment about neutralising.

Are you and flso a sockpuppet of each other? Isn't there some rule against that? How many other wastes of my time are there of you?

"Why do people say"

Laxman is a person. He explained why he says that.

Insects may not be a waste of time, but this thread certainly is.

We gave you the answers and advice you need. Instead if refuting it just accept it and give it a whirl.

You don't need to cast for instance if you have wands that can cast your spells for you, so manacles are counterable. Or if you are dodgy but you have +10 dex in gear.

You don't need to worry about bloody shackles if you have enough HP, +10 str, +10 dex and can just beat up the vindicator afterwards.

Spellbane can therefore be neutralized by having enough HP and dam redux to keep casting til it lands.

Claiming it's reasonable to consistently outfight or out run a ranger in their home terrain is a bit unrealistic for most people assuming the ranger or outlander leader is remotely competent.

You can't neutralize insects. They do what they're supposed to do all the time. That doesn't mean its a never-failing power word 'kill' but its no easier to neutralize than any other really good power. There are actually some powers you *can* neutralize, like spores, thornheart or plague and insect swarm is not one of these things.

I appreciate your perspective, I was thinking of you a great deal (not in that way you pervert!) when I proposed my ideas.

To my idea no 2. Yes you are quite right. I was just throwing it out there as an idea, I just want the Executioner to do SOMETHING.

To your ideas:

"1. Remove insects from the spirit. Remove side rooms from the around the executioner. I would rather see people attempt to raid on both sides, and giving either side an automatic way to trap an opponent is counter to this."

That seems fair.

"2. Upgrade the executioner so they hit more often and give it axe spec. A ton of guards while you are getting pincered could be very problematic."

That would be great.

"3. Make it so that anyone who sets foot in the spire after level 29 is assumed to be a criminal (unless of course deputized)."

This was suggested earlier in the discussion by Homard re: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=50993&mesg_id=50997&page=

Though his suggestion was just make everyone wanted who attacks the captain. I think it the easiest way, but a bit harsh even with your caveats.

"4. Make subvert only work if you are a criminal."

I think that is a great idea.

"Seeing as how we were long time enemies, I figured I'd give you my thoughts."

No problems, we all know you only imm'ed to avoid me kicking your arse.

1.) After being provost for months you don't know how to tell when and which outlanders are online?!?!?! For serious? It isn't rocket science.
2.) There is risks in all cabal raiding, you should know which outlanders are in your range and what their classes can do and adjust. Snares? Get a buddy to run ahead and get caught and then free them, no more snare problem, quicksand? Fly
3.) You totally gloss over how redic it can be for outlanders to retrieve when they are wanted and tribs are online
4.) You glosses over how devastating manacles are to mages and dex based builds
5.) It is not common to deal with bioempathy and even then its only a real deterrent to low level players


The outlander inner is pretty weak, I was able to solo raid it with both a druid and an evil conjurer at level 39. And there should be more risk in raiding a real cabal than in raiding a fake one like tribunal (it is fake because it doesn't have any real politics with other groups and they don't lose powers when they lose their item, except manacle)

"1.) After being provost for months you don't know how to tell when and which outlanders are online?!?!?! For serious? It isn't rocket science."

How does that address what I wrote?

"2.) There is risks in all cabal raiding, you should know which outlanders are in your range and what their classes can do and adjust. Snares? Get a buddy to run ahead and get caught and then free them, no more snare problem, quicksand? Fly"

How does that address what I wrote?

"3.) You totally gloss over how redic it can be for outlanders to retrieve when they are wanted and tribs are online"

How does that address what I wrote?

"4.) You glosses over how devastating manacles are to mages and dex based builds"

I addressed that. You are the one glossing over things.

"5.) It is not common to deal with bioempathy and even then its only a real deterrent to low level players"

You clearly haven't tried retrieving from the tree much.

"The outlander inner is pretty weak, I was able to solo raid it with both a druid and an evil conjurer at level 39."

You must have a massive penis too.

"And there should be more risk in raiding a real cabal than in raiding a fake one like tribunal (it is fake because it doesn't have any real politics with other groups and they don't lose powers when they lose their item, except manacle)"

How does that address what I wrote?

So all of my points did address what your wrote.

Let me summarize what you wrote.

"I don't know what outlanders are on and as a result retrieving from and raiding the tree scares me, here are some things that would make that situation less scary/make them raiding trib more difficult"

All of your suggestions are basically worthless because of the fact that you don't know what outlanders are around. that is something you should know. Just because they have camo doesn't make them undetectable. You need to focus on learning how to detect them and how to infer who is where. If you master those skills then your primary stumbling block of not being able to assess risk is overcome and there is no need for further suggestions.

So go get better at CF.

Which means that he hasn't played outlander.

Which makes a lot of his assumptions (manacles suck)
invalid and downright funny to those who are on the receiving
end.

Which also means that he can't judge outlander/tribunal
balance very well.

She. And that is not what I said. But at this point there is no point discussing things with you and laxman. I don't do ad hominems.

"You may be right, I don't really know the effects of bloody shackles, I was just throwing that out as an idea. I just want the Executioner to so SOMETHING."

This is you replying to me, previously. If you don't know effects of bloody
shackles, I think it's safe to assume that you haven't clocked in a lot of (any?)
hours playing outlander.

I'm not here to attack you, just saying that you lack perspective
which is needed in order to understand how powers on both sides work.

There are also many more factors that go into balancing cabals, and play
into the outlander-tribunal dynamic that you haven't mentioned.

Tribunal doesn't really have any permanent cabal enemies, besides outlander.
Outlander has a lot more raiders to worry about than just tribunals.

A lot of the classes that tend to become outlanders suffer significant penalties
in civilized terrain. A lot of the classes that would be useful in civilized terrain
tend to be hunted by most outlanders, and you seldom see them become
outlanders. The reverse is not true.

An outlander retrieving from or raiding spire has to worry about a lot more
than just tribunals, since enemies may drop in at any moment especially if
he's wanted. Tribunals retrieving from or raiding outlander only have to deal with
... outlanders.

"This is you replying to me, previously. If you don't know effects of bloody
shackles, I think it's safe to assume that you haven't clocked in a lot of (any?)
hours playing outlander."

I said I dont --->REALLY<--- know the effects. Do you? I was the Provost, I know better than anyone how often a vindicator has been around for the last six months. I note you conviniently dont mention that.

Also you assume to much.

"I'm not here to attack you, just saying that you lack perspective
which is needed in order to understand how powers on both sides work."

Cheap snipes are not giving me perspective.

"There are also many more factors that go into balancing cabals, and play
into the outlander-tribunal dynamic that you haven't mentioned."

Like what? Magistrates sometimes allying with Imperials? I thought that kind of went without saying.

State what you 'factors' you are talking about, instead of just making cheap snipes at me.

"Tribunal doesn't really have any permanent cabal enemies, besides outlander.
Outlander has a lot more raiders to worry about than just tribunals."

True. Though we do get lots of villagers/scions/nexans/whoever has an axe to grind seeing a magistrate on duty in X city. They know they can be in only one of two places just by using the 'who' command which is totally overpowered.

Perhaps it is you that lacks perspective.

"A lot of the classes that tend to become outlanders suffer significant penalties
in civilized terrain. A lot of the classes that would be useful in civilized terrain
tend to be hunted by most outlanders, and you seldom see them become
outlanders. The reverse is not true."

So you saying, magistrate wannabes and magistrates themselves are totally safe and not hunted? When exactly was the last time you played one?

"An outlander retrieving from or raiding spire has to worry about a lot more
than just tribunals, since enemies may drop in at any moment especially if
he's wanted. Tribunals retrieving from or raiding outlander only have to deal with
... outlanders."

Ha ha ha ha ha. You are funny.

1) He's a warrior
2) Any solution that requires you to have someone else do something for you is not a solution. If there's quicksand there's also a vortex, so you're getting boned whether flying or not.
3&4) Sure
5) If there's a warden on you're dealing with bioempathy. This makes it nigh impossible for very low level retrievers and even makes things difficult for warriors in their 30's

Evil Conjurers are raiding machines. I could pretty reliably kill the spirit if it was undefended but man do those maledicts make it a pain in the ass to do. If you get insects on you, trepidation, and have taken sufficient entangles you can end up out of moves well before you make it to Arkham and untreated thornheart can be nasty when you've already had a chunk of your health gone from fighting the things, to say nothing of spores.

I raided most cabal as my evil conjurer hero the watcher I'd typically need to rest up, the spirit was slightly weaker but had all sorts of ways of stopping me resting up. The destructor was pretty much a no-go area. The executioner? I came out with near-perfect health and not a malediction on me, didn't even break a sweat.

Step 1: Identify potential pitfalls (insects, entangle, spores, thornheart, defenders)
Step 2: Come up with a mitigation plan
Step 3: Execute
Step 4: assess how your plan worked out
Step 5: Make neccesary adjustments

All of those things you listed can be countered (rather easily). Get some refresh preps (there are a lot of different kinds), have seaweed on hand or set a fire, use preps, etc. Those are all pretty easy, if you have defenders to worry about, get them away from the tree (admittedly making people go where and do what you want them to is somewhat advanced tactics)

In the time I've gathered what I need to ensure a high chance of survival fighting the spirit I've killed the executioner twice over and the spirit still poses a bigger risk.

NT

Most of the points made are unfair and overly belittling.

1.
Pray tell outside of being a mage who knows exactly what someone is wearing and can locate it, how do you tell when someone who is camoed is online? Note that most tribunals and anyone who they can ask are either highly distrustful of each other or outright enemies. I call BS on this as a counter as this doesn't require some sort of skill, it requires either knowing someone who can locate (and knows something to locate) or knowing someone who can see. Options that are not always readily available especially for a non-mage.

2.
I agree that one should have as much information on the enmy as possible. This is why many cabals have a practice of sending out occassional missives detailing who is an enemy. However this process is never up to date in a game where people can powerrank into the forties within two RL days if they feel like it. This simply compounds the advantage of being able to camo. Camo isn't like many other 'detect-evasion' skills/spells in that you can talk, eat,and fully communicate without coming out of camo. And I know (and I have BEEN) the one who can and will sit in camo for a RL hour to get someone.

And I believe the entire gist of the thread has been that sure all cabals face risks in raiding but raiding Outlanders (against opposition) is always a chancy affair due to their powers. There is just no consistent method to know for sure what you are walking into when retriveing from the Tree. It's that simple.

3.
I believe in my entire time in the Spire I saw perhaps a handful of folks attempt retrieval while wanted and they were mostly Craznar. Typical retrieval tactic is to wear the Captain down then run into the city for safety one-room away which is why Bharum's suggestion of either relocating the Spire OR making the walk from the Captain to Galadon is such a great idea. Right now you honestly cannot do much to prevent retrieval besides slow it down a little. But actually make it something to think about? Nope. I'll give it to you that if I am WANTED I would think twice about a retrieval attempt but how often as mentioned is the vast majority of outlanders actually wanted? Me personally - I have had the thought for years now that after a certain point a person should become permanetly wanted. Like a terrorist or something. Considering part of outlanders reason to be is to tear down civilizatio I don't see why they wouldn't be wanted permanently (at least after a level like 40) - THEN I would agree to every point you made.


4. I completely agree, sequester sucks if you are a mage used to using word. But let's look at the typical retrival attempt. Typically the ones most likely to attempt retrieval are also going to be the ones with the most likely ability to escape. Transmuters can duo (manacles may interfere with but won't stop spellcasting), shapeshifters are typically tough enough to simply run for it, and invokers are well built for survival, can't be bashed or tripped if they are smart. And manacles definately screw dex based builds. But again - see number 3. This game is aging along with its players. We are FAR past the point where most people make mistakes like get themselves willingly and knowingly in a situation they cannot escape. This is part of why (looking aggain at number 1&2) going up against outlanders can be dicey - they are built for suprise ambushes (not the skill ambush) which are the easiest way to kill people.

Most people who play CF are tooo experienced to die through any other agency except suprise or being ganged down. The days of the one-on-one fight to the death aren't over but they are definately gasping their last breaths. Too many veterans pure and simple.

5. Bioempathy by itself for a higher-level player may not be a major deterrent but it is another reason why trying to retrieve against an unknown amount of people hiding in the trees can be dicey in comparison to dealing with guards.

Basically it all boils down to this.

You can hit and run the Captain very easily. You cannot easily hit and run the Huntress.

Hit and run is an effective and devastating means to retrieve if you cannot hold the attacker in place long enough to kill them. Add to that only requiring one room to flee to and that room is the direction you HAVE to flee to and pretty much its a wrap 90% of the time. The only real counter to the hit and run tactic besides killing the attacker is to heal the Captain which as mentioned isnt possible for them right now. This is ALSO why retrieiving from the villagers can be so very easy most times even with defenders.

*** In bharhums voice *** Yer talk too frickin much yer stinker.

*** In my voice *** That was way too verbose. But I agree. Also I question your hygene.

1.) Using locate object is a great tool. You can locate the skins and sacks made with the skin command, outlanders tend to hold onto these for long long periods of time so you can tell who is online based on which you see. Talking someone into casting locate object is really not that big of a challenge if you don't have it yourself. Being on top of spamming who/where will give you an idea of who is around. Other then that it is about keeping track of peoples habbits (easier for some folks than others). As you point out our playerbase is older, which means that their playing times are more regular. As a result if you consistantly play the same time slot you should expect to see very similar ranges day to day.

2.) You are far more conservative than most people and will sit around for much longer than them. You are not the norm.

3.) Spending a lot of time in a protected city has long ranging adverse affects on many people in outlander so its not as much of a free lunch as you make it out to be. And if they retrieve just take the fetish again. Not being able to hold an item against out of PK retrieval is common for most cabals so I don't know why trib should be any different. If they are in range and you can't kill them outright or at least beast on them while they hit the captain then the safeness a room a way is not going to make a difference, even if it wasn't safe they would just move a couple areas away and then come back instead of 1 room away. The advantage to the 1 room in your favor is that you always know when they are coming back. And if you engage them while the captain falls and they flee they might flee into the spire, letting you flag them.

4.) Sequestor isn't the problem with manacles as a mage, the part that denies casting is. It is not 100% but it does stop it a fair amount (enough to make any fighting really really tough as a transmuter) and not only does it stop it, it also lags you when you fail a couple of rounds. People make mistakes and take risks FAR FAR FAR more often then you are suggesting. As i mentioned above you are very conservative and you are likely projecting that conservatism on other people. you are also discounting the ability to force people into making mistakes. There are plenty of 1 on 1 fights as well at all ranges. people are still deleting with over 100 1 on 1 pk's.

5.) guards are such a huge boon against so many classes and situations, I think you are underestimating their effectiveness. For instance if you did not have a pair of guards with you most of the time my current char likely would have drained you of several points of con but they are a huge deterrant that prevented such from happening. They can really tear into low defense chars like offensive shifters, thieves, orcs, druids, and low dex non defensive speced warriors.

"if you did not have a pair of guards with you most of the time my current char likely would have drained you of several points of con"

He is the dreadlord now, not a magistrate. What is stopping you big-####?

Mostly him teleporting anytime he is in the same area as me.

It is a class mismatch that is mitigated by the fact he had guards, I was pointing out a benifit of being trib, the fact that you have a strong defensive position, even without your cabal item.

>1. We cant see who opposes us.
Simply a fact when fighting outlanders. It's their biggest non-leader power.

>2. We have to take leap of a faith that there is no snares,
>quicksand and all sorts of other assorted death traps there.
Complaining about regular class powers?

>3. If/When you get to the huntress, you have to deal with
>bioempathy and trepidation, from out of PK people.
Less bad than out of range guards, especially since certain Tribs will make Outlanders wanted without justification.

>4. You have to flee? You flee into a forest semi-maze. Woe
>is you if you have insects upon you.
This has got to be one of the easiest semi-mazes in the game. Come on.

>5. You are a newbie and don't know the way through the
>semi-maze? You are dead....don't even try.
How does being a newbie even make your list? Figure out the maze, it takes all of 10 seconds.

>6. Provost or Vindicator bringing guards? Turns them against
>us!
So you don't get to use your cabal powers to retrieve, like every other cabal.


>Retrieving from the Spire (if you are not wanted, and also
>kinda applies to all cabals):
>
>1. You can see us.

>2. You can flee and be actually protected by us by in the high
>street Galadon. Thirsty? Let me buy you a coffee
>whilst you heal to full.
>3. No magistrates have any power to use against you, in PK
>range or not.
>4. You are a newbie? No problem magistrates will protect you
>on the high street, even whilst you mock us.
Your problem seems to be that Tribunal has no powers against non-wanted people. I'm not sure I see a legitimate complaint.


>Moving on, to tribunal powers. Manacles suck unless those you
>use them on are low ranks. They have some utility against
>high ranked mages I admit, but for warrior types you might
>aswell just mark, caltraps, boneshatter, claw, dirt, slow and
>allsorts of way more useful things them.

Seriously?

">1. We cant see who opposes us.
Simply a fact when fighting outlanders. It's their biggest non-leader power."

Sure.

">2. We have to take leap of a faith that there is no snares,
>quicksand and all sorts of other assorted death traps there.
Complaining about regular class powers?"

No, pointing out a fact.

">3. If/When you get to the huntress, you have to deal with
>bioempathy and trepidation, from out of PK people.
Less bad than out of range guards, especially since certain Tribs will make Outlanders wanted without justification."

That only applies if you are wanted. And even if you are you have the luxury of sitting out in a wilderness somewhere doing your things waiting for the tribs to log off.

As for your accusation, I wont honour that with a reply.

">4. You have to flee? You flee into a forest semi-maze. Woe
>is you if you have insects upon you.
This has got to be one of the easiest semi-mazes in the game. Come on.

>5. You are a newbie and don't know the way through the
>semi-maze? You are dead....don't even try.
How does being a newbie even make your list? Figure out the maze, it takes all of 10 seconds."

Tell me that when you accidentally type w instead of south with a ranger on your arse.

"
...
...
2. You can flee and be actually protected by us by in the high street Galadon. Thirsty? Let me buy you a coffee
...
...
Your problem seems to be that Tribunal has no powers against non-wanted people. I'm not sure I see a legitimate complaint."

You didn't seem to read point two very well.

RE: manacles...you said "Seriously?"

Yes

Manacles suck? Are you crazy?

"Moving on to getting the scales. Its easy. Especially for agile classes. You just sit there and dodge everything."

Getting the scales without any opposition, is easy. Throw in
any sort of opposition, even out of range, and in many cases it becomes
impossible. Throw in opposition that knows what it's doing and it's
a death sentence. Similar to raiding the tree really except the
raiding without opposition part.

I laughed at executioner doing bloody shackles.

"Getting the scales without any opposition, is easy"

Yes. Compare that to getting the fetish, where you are making a leap of faith that there is no opposition.

" Throw in any sort of opposition, even out of range, and in many cases it becomes
impossible. Throw in opposition that knows what it's doing and it's
a death sentence"

Well, duh.

"Similar to raiding the tree really except the
raiding without opposition part."

Not at all similar. Did you even read my comparison of raiding the spire v the tree?

"I laughed at executioner doing bloody shackles."

You may be right, I don't really know the effects of bloody shackles, I was just throwing that out as an idea. I just want the Executioner to so SOMETHING.

I will concede that raiding spirit unopposed is harder than
raiding executioner unopposed.

Throw in any sort of opposition and it gets hard for both sides.
Depending on opposition and raiders it can be a death sentence.

Retrieving unopposed from both cabals is easy. With out of range
opposition, again similar difficulty since both sides can do
things to the retrievers.


With in-range opposition I would give the edge to Tribunals.
It's harder to retrieve from tribs as a wanted Outlander
with no cabal powers than it is to retrieve from Huntress.

Again this is the general case and depends on opposition. Presence
of certain heroes can tip the scales either way. The 'they're all camo
so I do not know what to expect' argument is not really an argument.
If you can't find ways around it, you should not be
playing tribunal where situational awareness is critical.

"I will concede that raiding spirit unopposed is harder than
raiding executioner unopposed."

Thankyou.

"Throw in any sort of opposition and it gets hard for both sides.
Depending on opposition and raiders it can be a death sentence."

Again, we covered this, the problem with the tree is YOU DONT KNOW if there is any opposition when you raid the tree. That makes the spirit 5x more powerful to take down....there is a concept called 'fleet in being' (wiki it) where a navy can blockade another without even leaving the home port.

"Retrieving unopposed from both cabals is easy. With out of range
opposition, again similar difficulty since both sides can do
things to the retrievers."

You are ignoring the out of PK points I made. Try retrieving 'unopposed' with the sunwarden awake, try retrieving 'unopposed' with the Provost awake. Constrast and compare.

"With in-range opposition I would give the edge to Tribunals."

####, you have a good idea who opposes you. Attack the huntress? You are surprised if you arn't surprised.

"It's harder to retrieve from tribs as a wanted Outlander
with no cabal powers than it is to retrieve from Huntress."

You said "wanted" in that sentence. You thought perhaps we wouldn't notice. We did.

Retrieving with the sunwarden awake is still easier than retrieving from the fort with the cardinal awake

But you know when the cardinal is awake.

You type 'whois andira'. Not going to be the case for every sunwarden though.

NT

Maybe not bloody shackles (and again I reiterate the Exdcutioner may may be designed specifically to be easier to kill because losing the scales doesn't have as great an effect as other cabals) but everryone should admit the Executioner is likely the easiest of the inners to kill.

Executioner is nowhere close to the deadliness of the nexus inners who can pour all sorts of nasty maledictions on you. An assassin who can blind entire groups, break your arms, lag you with kicks, and poison you right next to a transmuter than can hit you with stuff to make you bleed, hungry, thirty, puking , slow you and I'm probably missing a bunch of other nasty #### those two can do to you.

The Archmage who can outright kill you sometimes with that dark nova or whatever it is that does ungodly amounts of damage, plus slow, and can make mana regen very hard and a few other things I believe I am missing.

The Destructor who is likely the closest to defending in the same fashion as the Executioner except they can change to any weapon and eff you up with a slew of relevant weapon specs, and inmy opinion the Destructor is healthier to boot.

The Watcher who is normally going to be attacked by evil types and can do all sorts of things to cripple evil types in combat, like that gawd-awful wrath thing that on many of my past evil characters means you don't even want to step in the room with the Watcher until near hero because one strong blast from him can kill alot of folks in one good hit through protections.

The Council, yes they are fairly weak individually but combined they have four folks who can do a few maledictions plus damage.

I like the idea myself of the executioner doing stepped up damage based on your criminal history. Hell that should be a power for all guards, the more criminal you are the more hyped they are to kill you.

Throw in some opposition, manacles/sequester and lots and lots of
guards and it gets nasty, really nasty. Only three outlanders get
insects, how many tribunals can sequester?

If we are speaking about retrieivng, most of that doesn't matter unless the person is WANTED which in the vast majority of cases dealing with the Outlanders, most of the ones who are willing to retrieve are not wanted. Most outlanders are willing to become wanted in a raid they have a good chance at pulling off and escaping back into the woods and holding the scales, what most of them are not willing to do is become wanted just for kicks.

It seems like they do because a FEW high profile members keep a wanted flag but in my opinion from watching (and thats always suspect and ill admit its simply my view) I would not be at all suprised if the majority of outlanderrs are at best occassionbal criminals.

"It seems like they do because a FEW high profile members keep a wanted flag but in my opinion from watching (and thats always suspect and ill admit its simply my view) I would not be at all suprised if the majority of outlanderrs are at best occassionbal criminals."

That is true in my experience too. I think the last serial criminal I knew was Ekearok. Apologies to any treenerd (bharhums term for outlanders!) players I forget who are totally hard core criminals.

"I like the idea myself of the executioner doing stepped up damage based on your criminal history. Hell that should be a power for all guards, the more criminal you are the more hyped they are to kill you."

I too am becoming a big fan of that idea. Though it doesn't solve the problem of retrievers having a nice coffee and steak meal in galadon whilst they heal up under tribunal protection no less!

Just make hitting the Trib outer a crime.

It makes lowbie retrieval extremely difficult, but maybe right now it's too easy.

And just for the record, Outlanders camping out on High Street is lame.

I think that would be the easiest solution, not neccesarily the easier one.

I agree with most of your points however I think part of the reason the tribunals are allowed to keep most of their powers is precisely the reason why we don't have those better options. Being raided and having the scales taken simply doesnt effect a tribunal except for one thing that I can think of but won't say because you already know but maybe someone else doesn't.

I do believe the whole making special guards into traitors is unfair to an extreme considering the vast amouns of limitations already in place in terms of using special guards for the average magistrate.

Its not like the average magistrate can take them out of town, or use them on non-criminals the way outlanders can use wolves on anyone they want. Also it just doesn't make sense. You are a balding middle-aged family man cityguard with taxes to pay and wife and kids to feed and a few whispered words from your sworn enemy is enough to make you turn traitor and throw away your entire life?

That never made sense to me.

Subvert helps with that, and you don't get to use it on retrievals.

"I agree with most of your points however I think part of the reason the tribunals are allowed to keep most of their powers is precisely the reason why we don't have those better options. Being raided and having the scales taken simply doesnt effect a tribunal except for one thing..
...."

Indeed, and I did acknowledge that it is pretty awesome to still have the powers we do whilst still have the scales. But what do those powers do? Let you sit on your arse in your seantryn guild for hours on end and see assassins coming.

"I do believe the whole making special guards into traitors is unfair to an extreme considering the vast amouns of limitations already in place in terms of using special guards for the average magistrate." <etc etc>

I agree. I think a good solution would be the have the guards flee and return home or whatever when they are being hit hard a bit like some conjurer servitors behave, it will stop magistrates depending on them to rescue them. Having them subverted...no.

What is the solution? I propose the following:

1. Move the spire out of town, so we can attack retrievers outside of the spire.
^^^ Make a longer entrance to the Spire, so you have Tribunal grounds (its not illegal to loiter here, and its not Protected)


2. Give the Executioner the ability to apply bloody shackles randomly to anyone who attacks it.
(Yes and commune some offensive power that does more damage the more criminal you are, wanted or not in both cases)

3. Make the dark forest in prosemy not at all maze like, or move the tree to to somewhere where it isn't a semi-maze.
^^^ This should stay as is if the above change was made

4. Make special guards waaaayyy less traitorous.
^^^ Make special guards for in cities only, outside of the city Tribs should get SWAT equivalent, you know when they raid As for counter raids, It would be nice if all tribunals could see hiding/sneaking/invis when out of town, yeah this makes Tribs a very powerful option but you are still marked in a specific location on duty.

Does these changes make Tribunal overly bad ass, maybe, and?

I don't know about the SWAT team guards! Or the vigilance out of town for all (smells of old school arbiter powers to me)!

But the longer entrance to the spire and the Executioner communing stuff the greater you are a criminal seem like great ideas to me.