The whiners go on and on and those of us who enjoy the game stay rather quiet. I'm sorry about that, it just gets tiring every time someone starts whining to throw my vote in since it's near a constant thing these days. I've lost track of how long I've been playing, but it's been good. CF is the only mud I've stuck with for any length of time. It's completely unique from anything else I've found. I don't know what to say about these bitter babies posting secrets to a website, but I would hate to see CF become just another game with a huge strategy guide book.

I think those of us who do enjoy CF actually would leave if it got dumbed down, while these whiners will go on endlessly complaining about a great free game. It's a no brainer they'll find something else to complain about if they got what they want. Choose us!

I think we (the ones that enjoy ourself) are often more silent and more of "lurkers" here on the forums.

So yes it can't be stressed enough! We love all the work you guys put in. Please try and find that laminated side when reading post where people cry about this or that.

ps.
Funny how this post got lots of replies from people complaining.

If you did not have immortals constantly abusing these area explore zones I really don't think you would see these kinds of complaints.

When you have immortals abusing items out of Yzekon, Silent Tower, and Hell, then turning around to the player base saying you can't learn anything about these areas or we are going to pull them from the game you have a problem.

What I think people are looking for is fairness, and you don't have that right now.

n/t

What are examples of this?

There's a huge difference between not being able to learn anything about an area, and not being able to post quest info on a webpage. Learn it in game.

... and I've never been banned or pulled aside for my hell trips or hell groups. So, no, not everyone.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

I really hope you realize I was just being sarcastic.

N/T

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

I've seen stranger claims on the internet.

but there comes a time when you just have to get on with your life.

You mention Cabdru, I never fought against him so I don't have something personal against him, but here are some things that would help people get over it and move on with their lives as you put it.

1) The immortal involved actually apologize to the players for his cheating.

2) The rest of the implementors apologize to the player base for doing nothing about it.

n/t

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

Nt

I'm still not sure how "use a piece of gear that anyone could have gotten for years for less than a real life week before deciding that the people who designed it did not, in fact, make good choices and then changing it" qualify as cheating.

So you're not getting an apology and I think pretty much everyone got over whatever "it" is a long time ago.

You sound like a 80-year old complaining about what happened 60 years ago. ^^ Idiot! hahahahahaha

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

I notice that no one has bothered to refute the cheating, just rabid immortal fanboys making personal attacks claiming its not happening right this instant so forget about it.

No one can refute your vague, barely made claims.

>No one can refute your vague, barely made claims.

Since someone else has brought up Cabdru directly why don't you respond to that with something other well that happened X amount of time ago.

Did the immortals ever admit cheating was going on with this character? Was there ever any punishment for the immortal behind this character?

There have been a bunch of posts recently about explore areas and their place in the game. Immortal abuse of these areas has been a problem in the past, and there is no reason to believe there won't be a problem in the future because it has never been addressed. "Quest" rewards are another problem with immortals giving themselves advantages disproportionately to the player base. Its not about any single character, but a pattern of abuse that has never been addressed.

Solution?
1) Immortals stop rewarding their characters with special perks
2) Stop abusing area explore
3) Stop abusing in game bugs/mechanisms then changing them later

I don't even know what to say to such a baby. Are you paying taxes in Thera, or what?

..and you need to learn a bit of maturity in your comments. If people suspect Immortals of cheating and are turned away from the game due to that, there might be an easy solution for the Immortals to show that it's no longer an issue.

I myself love how Twist takes credit for his characters. I know Cadbru was a long ago occurrence, but that char shows an opposite extreme, where Nepenthe denied the char and then through a slight slip-up was shown to have truly played the char.

As Sacer is the king now, he may be able to persuade the Immortals to talk about their chars after they're done playing them. It would definitely strengthen the relationship with Imms and Players and I think there has already been quite a bit of good vibes in that regard already going on.

-thinnie

He's being stubborn and bitter about a great, free, immersive experience.

Be more mature? I called him a baby. Does thinnie stand for thin skinned?

He's just trying to point out an issue that he sees and others may as well. I myself and you aren't too concerned with, but if there's a simple solution to get people back in the game, then why not pursue it. Name calling on the other hand really doesn't resolve anything.

I know you've been playing for quite some time, but I've also played CF for quite some time (since 94) and although I have a hard time looking at perspectives outside of my own, I think it's important that we do so we can find a multitude of ways for people to enjoy CF and increase the playerbase once again.

-thinnie

Cabdru was a crappy way for an implementor to behave, certainly.

But really, it was a long time ago and you still can't come up with a more recent example, just more vague finger pointing.

Here's the thing, though:
It's their game and you are under not compelled to play it.

I just have to wonder if you guys get upset about the house edge at casinos.

(n/t)

n/t

You're doing the very thing that you complain that complainers are doing, namely lumping them together with vague generalities, and essentially trying to discard a potion of the opinions regarding a game that all those people also play.

What are you going on about? I complained that complainers are lumping something together with vague generalities? Where?! Where did I say this? Are you just insulted and slinging mud at me?

The only specifics I mentioned were people who are all up in arms about sharing quest information. It's dumb. It's lazy. Why should people be rewarded for nothing? If you don't like exploring, don't. A few edges won't make or break your character. If you're just taking offense that I'm after anyone who ever made a complaint, sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I mentioned people sharing quest info or demanding that quest info be made public, that's the only people I mentioned.

About the opinions, you're kind of right, I am disgarding those who'd rather read a webpage instead of exploring quest areas. I see this as a fundamentally incompatible idea for a fantasy MUD game. CF in particular, They want to play a game that is not CF. I think the other muds are a good indication of how crappy a MUD can get when you stop treating it like a fantasy tabletop game. Do you get to demand a strategy guide from the dungeon master?

I think I asked this above too, but how does their powergaminess affect your fun stick? If you like to explore, I would definitely implore you to continue doing so.

-thinnie

Say I find a secret passageway, which I have plenty of times, I continue to explore the area and find a great item. Oh, illusionary. Some powergaming schmoes check the spot every time the game crashes. Sorry people who want to earn something, you are now the disadvantaged because you wanted to earn something instead of power game. Good job exploring though. It would effectively make exploration just a player's quirk in which you disadvantage yourself heavily.

There's RP aspects of it as well. My current is very exploratory. They take people out and show them secrets. It's a part of the character, but beyond that, it's a part of the world. Mystery, intrigue, these things aren't worthless, especially in a fantasy setting. There are other MUDs that list everything in their wiki's. They suck. No one roleplays. Go figure.

So are you exploring primarily because of the shinies or primarily because you enjoy exploring? Are you saying that because you've had years and years of time to explore CF, that you should have an inherent advantage over everyone who hasn't? Each and every time you create a new character? I don't think there's anything wrong with this thought process, but you can understand how daunting it might be for new players. I think if there were less significant items such as A/B/S predicated on knowledge of areas, I think less people would care about transparency.

Also, I agree that mystery, intrigue, etc. is important. I'm also for not sharing the intricacies of skills/spells/etc. I'd rather people make up their thoughts on that and hope the skill/spell is logical in the way it's coded. At the same time, if we can somehow lessen the barriers for entry and get some of the powergamey players back, the playercount will dramatically increase and we'll still have the current group of players who love things as they are.

I went to Hell with a few groups (ragers, masters, etc) and had a blast down there. Sacer did an amazing job and it was an incredible journey, but it doesn't hold a candle to a 5 v 5 cabal raid in my eyes and I think others as well. Ultimately, I just think it's important that we keep our eyes open to every possible player mentality and not try to advantage or disadvantage any of the player types.

-thinnie

Shinies or the act of exploring, those are my two options? If I cut your dog in half and asked, "what did you love about this dog, the front or the back?" That's kind of like what you just asked me. I like the RP of exploring. The whole of it, my character, the explorer. Yes, there are shinies, yes, there is the act of exploring, there is being considered an explorer in game too. Take away that part of the game, kiss that character good bye. Sure, there will still be bodyguard type characters. Not everyone would be able to just march into hell by themselves, but that's not an explorer. Consider this, and this would happen by the way, someone is exploring a forgotten dungeon. They've spent time looking over ancient mechanisms, meticulously making their way further and further. Someone runs past them, opens all the doors, grabs all the treasure, and leaves without so much as a word. Sharing quest information OOC would ruin exploration.

I get it, you want more players. I do too but not at the expense of CF. There is no other CF. You can jump over to another MUD which has a lot of players. I wouldn't, I doubt you would either. You mentioned in another post that CF is more immersive than other MUDs. There's a reason for that.

..go to another MUD and others are saying if you don't like CF in its current state just quit. I'm not sure why people aren't open to a discussing different ways CF can progress. CF without a solid playerbase is not nearly as appealing.

As to your analogy, I don't quite understand how the split dog analogy works in this discussion. My problem is that when people have been playing for quite some time, they've amassed quite a few secrets which aid them with all of their characters they subsequently play. If some of these keys are vital to survival or playability in CF, it might be worth looking into revealing a few of these to others.

I didn't mean to imply that I'm for walk-throughs for everything, but I am saying it's worth looking at what issues may be keeping new players or veteran players from playing currently.

-thinnie

And I haven't been playing recently because it's been my busy season for work. I've been waiting for things to slow down and then I've been planning to start a new character. I have a couple of complicated roles I would like to try.

But now I'm not sure I'm going to do that.

Neither of the ideas I have are religious per se, but both roles would lend themselves to needing a little play back from some Immortals to really be "successful."

But looking at the #### that Tolgrumm got, I wonder if I want to expose myself to that.

Tolgrumm wasn't a powerhouse. He wasn't "unfair." He just played his role and seemingly made the game better for everyone who played with him.

And he got #### on for it, as did his immortal.

And this says nothing of the fact that I prefer difficult roles because I like feeling like I've earned my rewards, and I think it's obnoxious when people wave their flag of entitlement all over the place.

Not to mention what I generally seem to think is a desire to dumb down the game in pursuit of "fairness," which I still think is a foolish appeal to the lowest-common denominator, something I could never get behind.

..I'm not sure what part of my response you were referring to, but you should definitely rethink not making this character. I personally am against people getting rewards which help them in p v p, but that shouldn't stop you from seeking it out if you're comfortable with it.

I personally don't want to see the game dumbed down, but rather see more focus on player skill dictating fights rather then in-game knowledge or immortal rewards. The only exception to me for immortal rewards are those characters who log on and play regardless of the odds.

-thinnie

Tac may not have been totally clear with his post below, but he seemed to be angling for some way to make things more equitable between players like Marcus and noobs.

I would hate to see anything like that happen.

At this point there's just so much (I'll use the loaded term) complaining about equity that it's become a chore to separate out the nuances.

Player skill continues to be the primary factor in deciding who will win a given PK encounter.

I'll give you a scenario. Tell me who wins:

1. Guy with fifty hours playing CF under his belt. He has control of Ahteli or Kostyan with a bag containing one of every prep in the game.

2. Shaapa playing his naked assassin who never hides.

Because player skill is such an overriding factor, the only way to make the game more equitable is to dumb it down. And I'd hate to see that happen the same way I wouldn't want to play Hold 'Em against Daniel Negreanu (best poker player in the world 2013?) given the stipulation that I could see one of his hole cards.

And the thing about immortal rewards is that we're all angling for them. Some of us are just better at getting them, despite our skill in PK, exploring, etc.

The answer is not to complain about it, but to get better at the aspects of the game that you lack at.

Torak is good at PK, an amazing explorer, very knowledgeable, and wants perks. He needs to stop irritating the people who dispense those perks. It's that easy.

As for people who play regardless of odds, it can be tough to figure out when someone is logging off because it's Empire O'Clock or because their salt-water aquarium just sprung a leak, so we'd have to be very broad with using that as a measure.

You don't want walk-throughs for everything. You want don't want secrets that veterans can amass a knowledge of. These things contradict. I know you don't want all quest area/secrets removed. I can only guess you want to tune down the shinies gained within? I've been playing for a long while, my toughest characters haven't had all that great equipment, it's not a game changer. It's nice, and it does make things easier, sure. But if newbies want to compete, they need to learn pk. The arena helps with this and characters in game are nearly always happy to help and give advice. Join a cabal, ask around. Ask successful characters of the same class. Evil might have a harder time with this, newbies should think twice about playing evil anyway. It's more dangerous just like hanging out with bikers is more dangerous than hanging out with fry cooks.

I certainly understand why people think shinies are the deciding factor, I used to think it too. I only got better when I stopped thinking this. The character I had with the best equipment, ever, was a complete wuss. Because of build, because of my skill with the class. One of my most bitter moments as a newbie was to get my hands on some great equipment only to have it taken from me, easily, literally five minutes later. It was also a moment where I abandoned the belief shinies were going to see me through. I kept reading this on the forums, it finally sunk in. I've gotten better since then. I know where to get this equipment now, it still depends on my skill with the character whether I'm successful or not.

The dog thing was an analogy because you gave me two choices about what I liked about exploring. It's not shinies, it's not the player act of looking at everything in a room. It's the role play of having a intrepid adventurer who braves the unknown and everything that comes along with it. Yes, I do like reaping rewards for it. If I dwelve deep into a dangerous dungeon, and sometimes I burn a con or two doing so, I don't want to come out of it with a new charred leather bracer. I can see your point that it's daunting to new players to do this, but the sooner they realize that characters in CF are fleeting, the faster they'll get better.

Lastly, I don't want people to leave, but if they want to stay only to see CF change into something it's not, I'd prefer they left. Arvam put up a great post about why. This game is not other games, it is a hard core RP experience. PK is part of that. It simulates a fantasy world better than anything I've ever seen. You said some people prefer 5 on 5 cabal raids. There are games out there that can give you this. They aren't as good. Learning CF is worth it. CF is the MUDer's elite. I swear to you, skill is already the deciding factor, equipment changes hands. Rewards can be a different story. If your build is ridiculous, you're going to be a powerhouse. Still, I want to see people rewarded and it's rare that someone is a powerhouse on rewards alone. It happens, but I like people getting custom rewards.