Axes are mostly usable by the characters who have high strength, so we compare mace vs axe on the maladaction warrior who has high strength.

Maladaction warrior with spear + axe can only impale;whirl;pincer.

Maladaction warrior with spear + mace + can impale;boneshatter;cranial.

But also high-strength maladaction warrior with spear + mace can drum;drum. This is totally new tactic what spear + axe doesn't have. This tactic is especially effective against people who have vulns, aren't prepped well, imperial warriors with espesially good gears to cover any stat loss, vs ganks, against people who like to dirt/disarm (because you can wield cursed maces and don't switch weapons in combat).

Impale + boneshatter/whirl looks more useful against people with a lot of damage reduce, absed shapeshifters for example.

In 2 rounds (instead of impale + boneshatter/whirl) you can land 2 drums, what means about 6-7 attacks for someone with high str. Or you can pincer for 2 * 1.5 = 3 attacks.

Boneshatter is also more effective than whirl and cranial is much better than pincer for actually landing pks.

Mace spec is plain better than axe spec for anybody but svirf. Svirf will not lag many people with cranial so axe is better for him.

The only useful situation for pincer is when you fight someone really much weaker than you or someone who has very low health and no damage reduce - so you can kill them really quick. Disembowel is good in some very specific situations, but overall mace is much more effective than axe specialization.

So my suggestion is to change boneshatter and whirl in effectivensy, to make whirl stronger than boneshatter - i speak about -str/-dex affect, the damage from the skill even with edge isn't that important in the overall strategies. Right now i think there are too many maladaction builds what use mace as one of the specializations (dagger + mace or spear + mace), it will balance axe vs mace.

I have done a couple of mace/axe specs just to get a handle on which was better for what and unless you happen to be a lowish str race (range of wield options being the deciding factor) then axe is simply king. Well the second scenario is if you like to gank a lot, mace is better then axe when ganking.

What makes axe great...

Whirl vs Boneshatter: Boneshatter is simply better almost across the board, in terms of direct malediction (-str/dex) and potential secondary affects (shifter lag where whirl only adds damage, and synergy with decalcify that is so ludacrisly extreme its a wonder you don't see it as a staple tactic). the one leg up whirl has on boneshatter is that if you take the double whirl edge it can deal higher damage on average. The second advantage is that you get it at a lower level if you are engaging in lower rank pk a lot.
Advantage: Mace

Cranial vs Pincer: Pincer just does so much more damage then cranial, both because it hits 2 times instead of 1 but also because cranial used to start combat is waaaaay lower damage, this makes pincer much better when trying to seal a kill on a wounded opponent (note I said wounded). Pincer has a naturally higher fail rate then mace but at the same time there is really nothing an opponent can do to change that whereas there are edges and steps that can be taken to limit the success rate of cranial.
Advantage: Axe

Drum vs Pincer: You might be saying... hey you just compared pincer and cranial... well I did. But pincer is not just a lag move, its also burst damage, just like drum. From my own experiences while a full drum can do more damage then a pincer you just don't get a full drum very often. On average you get more direct damage pumped out of pincer;pincer;pincer then you get from drum;drum;drum and that doesn't even take into account the fact that your pincers have the defensive quality of command denial on your opponent that drum does not.
Advantage: Axe

Backhand vs... whirl: Backhand is simply better then whirl for dealing direct damage. Almost identicle damage but with half the lag (and even an edge to add feint now and then)
Advantage: Mace

Hook and Weaponbreaker vs... Nothing: Man you can't discount the awesomesauce that is weaponbreaker. Heck when they introduced (broken) weapons to the game they even jacked up the success rate. This skill is beautiful not only as a disarm skill but as a deterrent to opponents to not even try and use their best weapons against you to avoid having to repair them over and over again. There are plenty of cursed weapons out there but not as many cursed weapons made out of non-physical materials. Plus you can do it when blind and they can't simply re-wield like other disarm skills
Advantage: Axe

Dent vs Nothing: Hey a armor crushing skill... would be useful if you could target it at key pieces of gear but given the crapshoot of having to randomly hit something important and then having to hit it multiple times to actually break it this skill is mostly useless in the practicle sense, even as a simple detterent.
Advantage: Mace (though tempted to say advantage nobody)

Overhead and Disembowel: Both flashy skills that largely are overshadowed in usefulness by pincer in most situations. In some cases disembowel can be pretty nifty though.
Advantage: Axe

Final Score
Axe: 4
Mace: 3

Now of course if you are like an arial you need to go with mace just because axe skills require dual wielding for the most part and they tend on the heavy side (skills ain't much use if you hit like a baby kitten)

>I have done a couple of mace/axe specs just to get a handle
>on which was better for what and unless you happen to be a
>lowish str race (range of wield options being the deciding
>factor) then axe is simply king. Well the second scenario is
>if you like to gank a lot, mace is better then axe when
>ganking.
>
>What makes axe great...
>
>Whirl vs Boneshatter: Boneshatter is simply better almost
>across the board, in terms of direct malediction (-str/dex)
>and potential secondary affects (shifter lag where whirl only
>adds damage, and synergy with decalcify that is so ludacrisly
>extreme its a wonder you don't see it as a staple tactic).
>the one leg up whirl has on boneshatter is that if you take
>the double whirl edge it can deal higher damage on average.
>The second advantage is that you get it at a lower level if
>you are engaging in lower rank pk a lot.
>Advantage: Mace

Even with the edge, boneshatter is typically more damage than whirl. Bigger advantage to mace. Though whirl does give shifter lag, you're wrong about that, too.
>
>Cranial vs Pincer: Pincer just does so much more damage then
>cranial, both because it hits 2 times instead of 1 but also
>because cranial used to start combat is waaaaay lower damage,
>this makes pincer much better when trying to seal a kill on a
>wounded opponent (note I said wounded). Pincer has a
>naturally higher fail rate then mace but at the same time
>there is really nothing an opponent can do to change that
>whereas there are edges and steps that can be taken to limit
>the success rate of cranial.
>Advantage: Axe

Uh, you entirely ignored the most important fact, that cranial does trip lag and can be used again in 2 rounds, while pincer is 3 rounds, giving a full round for your enemy to act or escape. That's enormous and game changing. Plus that fail rate you mention matters. This probably works out to be even, certainly not a definite advantage to axe.

>
>Drum vs Pincer: You might be saying... hey you just compared
>pincer and cranial... well I did. But pincer is not just a
>lag move, its also burst damage, just like drum. From my own
>experiences while a full drum can do more damage then a pincer
>you just don't get a full drum very often. On average you get
>more direct damage pumped out of pincer;pincer;pincer then you
>get from drum;drum;drum and that doesn't even take into
>account the fact that your pincers have the defensive quality
>of command denial on your opponent that drum does not.
>Advantage: Axe

I think you're mistaken about which gets more average dam. And query whether drum can be used in two rounds or needs three full rounds like pincer. I think it's two but I might be remembering wrong. And when mastered I'm pretty sure drum hits significantly more often than pincer, which has a bigger fail rate.

>
>Backhand vs... whirl: Backhand is simply better then whirl
>for dealing direct damage. Almost identicle damage but with
>half the lag (and even an edge to add feint now and then)
>Advantage: Mace

Agree.
>
>Hook and Weaponbreaker vs... Nothing: Man you can't discount
>the awesomesauce that is weaponbreaker. Heck when they
>introduced (broken) weapons to the game they even jacked up
>the success rate. This skill is beautiful not only as a
>disarm skill but as a deterrent to opponents to not even try
>and use their best weapons against you to avoid having to
>repair them over and over again. There are plenty of cursed
>weapons out there but not as many cursed weapons made out of
>non-physical materials. Plus you can do it when blind and
>they can't simply re-wield like other disarm skills
>Advantage: Axe

Deflect shield? Hook and weaponbreaker are great and I'm not suggesting it's as good, but you entirely forgot a mace skill, and one that can be particularly useful. Yes, axe gets shield cleave. I don't know which has a greater success rate but I suspect deflect would, if both are practiced up. Axe wins this, but not by as much as you thought when you forgot about deflect shield entirely.

>
>Dent vs Nothing: Hey a armor crushing skill... would be
>useful if you could target it at key pieces of gear but given
>the crapshoot of having to randomly hit something important
>and then having to hit it multiple times to actually break it
>this skill is mostly useless in the practicle sense, even as a
>simple detterent.
>Advantage: Mace (though tempted to say advantage nobody)
>
>Overhead and Disembowel: Both flashy skills that largely are
>overshadowed in usefulness by pincer in most situations. In
>some cases disembowel can be pretty nifty though.
>Advantage: Axe

Disembowel can be incredibly powerful, but I remember the fail rate being pretty high. But yes, obviously mace doesn't have anything like it.

>
>Final Score
>Axe: 4
>Mace: 3
>
>Now of course if you are like an arial you need to go with
>mace just because axe skills require dual wielding for the
>most part and they tend on the heavy side (skills ain't much
>use if you hit like a baby kitten)

I'm vuln blunt and seems like every damn warrior I see is wielding a fregin mace.

However, Axe does have this small advantage:

sword *********
mace *********
axe ******
staff *********
spear ******
dagger ***********
whip *********
flail ****
polearm ****

More people know mace (so can parry it better?). Not by many though. and one of those is the only sometimes ranger savage.

Is that axe is the hardest weapon to dodge, and hardest to defend against in general. all things equal, if an opponent is reduced to dodge only, they should in theory dodge maces more often than axes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't axes in fact one of the easiest weapons to dodge (and one of the hardest to parry)?

They were changed this way to rebalance thieves and assassins against them, but axes are still categorically really hard to parry.

To a degree knowing axe/parry mitigates against this.

of the double whirl edge.

Boneshatter maledicts a bit harder but double whirl is higher damage and not a lot of lag.

I think pincer is better than cranial when the other guy is actively using skills - you'll get more damage and harder during the same amount of lag.

And I'd take disembowel over drum against a lot of enemies, especially ones that a warrior would otherwise probably not kill.

Disembowel and weapon breaker make the spec much much more viable. They both change your tactics dramaticly.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

In a sense that it can win you an almost un-winnable fight against a heavily prepped invoker/shapeshifter, but it'll also get you killed when you gamble with it.

nnn

I have always felt way better about kills landed with procs than kills landed with damage. Assassinate, PWK, and disembowel are just that much cooler than throw, sleep kill and pincer, even if they are generally less effective in the long run

Killing someone in an actual fight is way cooler than just one-shotting them.

Disembowel isn't really a "one-shot" -

You've gotta get them to writhing first, which, y'know, means surviving to see them at writhing, and if they're heavily protected means outputting a lot of damage prior (while likely soaking it up like a sponge yourself, because you're a warrior wielding axes).

Not that I disagree with you - but it's the suspense of kill or be killed that makes disembowel really fun relative to other instagibs.

Splntrd