Greetings,

I would like to propose a change to the mechanics of Cabal raiding. I would like to see people who die during an attempted raid forced to wait out their ghost period, just like everyone else. Quite frankly, it does not make sense to me that someone I just killed, and is a ghost can simply walk back into any cabal inner, and do away with his/her ghost timer. To me, after a raider DIES ergo 'loses', they should have to wait prior to attempting again, because they are dead!

I understand this mechanic is in place, so that people can loot their corpses, and also is in place to stop ghosts from killing inners while being a ghost.

I propose the following changes:

Make it so that ghosts cannot take items from the pit of a cabal (Excluding direct members of such said cabal)

Make it so inners do not auto-attack ghosts

Make it so that attacking an inner as a ghost is a slay (much like attacking an outer currently)

The next part is tricky, and may take some creativity. While we need to make sure people can loot their corpses at an inner, we also need to make sure that they can't just sit there as a ghost and report intel. Make a timer, so that the longest any 'ghost' can remain at another cabals pit 30-45 seconds total or something, then they are barred from entering, and if they are there, they are ejected one room away (perhaps escorted out by the inner, I am unsure)

OR:

Sidestepping all of that, make it "Bad RP" to keep raiding as described above and let it be known it is policed/frowned upon. Frankly, the inners should have nothing to fear of a dead enemy ghost, unless he intends to haunt them for his 20 hours of ghostdom.

My $.02

I disagree with the principle you are citing.

Ghost timers aren't penalty boxes. It seems to me like they are mostly there to help the player regear and recover before entering back into pk. E.g., you aren't penalized when the server crashes and your character is a ghost for a round...it's done to help you out.
Otherwise, the game will revert to enemies scouting out your pit and multikilling you.

I disagree with another principle you are advocating: stopping access to eq from cabal pits. I think anything that decreases eq circulation is fundamentally a bad thing for the spirit of the game -- especially when said eq isn't being used by someone else. Cabal pits aren't meant to provide in-game warehouses for eq.

A final principle is this: in character pks can be hours apart these days, based on who is in your range and how hard it is to find them.
Anything to slow down realizable pk action seems bad for the game.

Fundamentally, it seems you are complaining it's hard to multikill someone who is looking for a fight while you are being defended by your cabal inner. Your enemy is con dying to get your item and you are complaining you can't physically full loot them fast enough to dissuade them from coming back?

Don't you want them to come back so you can do what you did last time? Heal heal, heal mana, and you're ready to go again. The guy already lost one fight, he doesn't need more disadvantages piled up.

No offense, but it seems really sad if someone wants to burn 1 con on a raid and still can't because there is a rule that whoever won the last fight gets more of an advantage. You are taking some heroics out of the game.

This rule proposal will just result in more conservative play and less raiding, especially if some of the more extreme suggestions are implemented.

If there is a problem with maledictions lasting too long, it seems more reasonable to have more maledictions heal up faster or disappear when the inflicter dies.

I think you miss the premise of my post.

I disagree with you on several of your counter-points.

Ghost timers aren't penalty boxes. It seems to me like they are mostly there to help the player regear and recover before entering back into pk. E.g., you aren't penalized when the server crashes and your character is a ghost for a round...it's done to help you out.

Ghost timers are in fact a penalty box. You cannot kill a cabal outer, you get slain. If they do not unghost you and allow you to immediately recover your item upon attacking an outer, how does it make sense they allow you to unghost and continue a failed attempt at raiding...it doesn't. This game is based on 'RP'. How is it 'RP' that a dead guy, a ghost, can spontaneously snap back to life and continue the same damn fight he just lost? This is the only situation in the entire game that I know of that allows you an early 'out' of the penalty box.

I do not think that someone should be able to sidestep RP on an RP enforced mud, by using game mechanics. You're dead, you're done, wait and try again.

healing? sure its cool, but it doesn't stop them dude. The problem is if there are 3 of them, and say 2 of us, they will just keep comming. Resting within the cabal until full, and unghosting at the inners. You need to remember that the reason they are pushing again is hey, they are healing too.

Can I stop them from this behavior? I sure can! How do I do it? I drop a full loot and sac on every one that dies at my inners.

Am I going to do that?

No. I will not do that because I think its ####ty. And not only do I think its ####ty, the majority of the playerbase and the IMM's have labelled that kind of activity as ####ty. Full looting in CF nowadays has a negative stigma, its the way it is.

So, since I don't want to full loot them for 30 minutes of peace at a time, what is your suggestion for me to find an in-game way to stop their 'abuse' of this game mechanic?

>Can I stop them from this behavior? I sure can! How do I do
>it? I drop a full loot and sac on every one that dies at my
>inners.
>
>Am I going to do that?
>
>No. I will not do that because I think its ####ty.

It's obnoxious if you're doing it for no reason. It's perfectly fine if you say "Hey, if you continue this I'm going to destroy all your stuff" and they keep doing their tactic. Let them get away with it once, with a warning, and if they do it again, then drop the full sac.

In general though, I agree with you that it shouldn't work that way. With gear in decaying corpses returning to the owners, there's no need for people to be able to run back into cabals.

You have a massive advantage defending at your inners, and heh if its going pear shaped you can just word.... WAAAAAAH then I will lose my item I hear you say, well props for being man enough to bother to defend in the first place, but secondly just go get it back.

It isnt supposed to be a static game where you hold your enemies item for hours at a time, props if you can keep it that way under a relentless assault. IMHO you are looking at this all wrong, Carrionfields cabal wars are wars of attrition, you might win the battle but lose the war, its about sacrificing con. If you take 5 1/3rds of a con off the enemy and lose only 1/3rd of a con doing it, you are winning the war of attrition.

Dont think about it as a penalty box, instead think of con as your resources to do battle, over time con is depleted. You are right not to full loot ragers (in this case) because in the unlikely event that you die, they will full loot you back, and they are probably already wearing reequip gear. Instead enjoy the battles that you get, maybe it will be too much for you, they will come with 2-4 people you can choose to fight and die bravely, or to escape by the skin of your teeth, or in some cases, not even show up. Yes Sun Tsu espouses never taking a battle you cant win, but sometimes that doesnt fit with you rp, I've had a few ragers in the past and the commander has ordered strikes that I know I will die in, but, its part of my rp to go anyway. RP is a bitch like that. Essentially you want to play Sitonmyenemiesitemandneverlosemysetfields, but really you are playing carrionfields and the inherent rush and excitement of the game is based on death, risk, loss.... The battles are eternal and every waged, dont be a ####.

The only reason you now unghost at inners is to let you get gear back but stop you lingering.

A warrior can get huge mileage out of this by simply healing at healer, then returning to joins his still living comrades as if he'd not died at all.

He shouldn't get a second bite at the same cherry.

Full looting them stinks, because they might just be coming back to grab gear.

nt

Unless you think that having your corpse sit there with your stuff during a battle is the same as having it sit there for several minutes afterwards.

Returning lets you get your stuff a lot sooner.

This is not true. People often take a bunch of stuff from a corpse to identify it or consider looting it and then drop it next to the corpse.

There is certainly some reason and incentive to return to a corpse besides continuing a raid.

Moreover, you are stating that continuing a cabal raid is griefing. I think this idea is fairly mistaken, as I noted in my above post, and contradicts the spirit of the game.

When your enemy is dead, and returns to continue a fight, it shows both admirable persistence and allows for more pk action than otherwise would be the case. If the enemy was killed once, then he can certainly be killed again.

So what's the reason for the complaint? Is the implication that it is griefing to make a defending cabal feel like they are constantly embattled? There are ways around that besides full looting, but the most important aspect is this: this is carrion fields

It is a disadvantage because you are still suffering many of the penalties from the raid. Loss of rods/maledict/blood loss.

You are an idiot to think otherwise.

It is not admirable persistence. They only do this because they have the advantage(in nearly all cases this occurs it is mostly villagers).

You are in favor of this likely because you, yourself, abuse this.

Really.

His arguments are crap, but I don't think corpse-zerging is a good mechanic. It's just kinda stupid no matter who does it. Since it's legal, people can do it, but I do think it warrants a full-loot, since you're basically forcing their hand. Normally full-looting doesn't really gain you anything strategically, but in this case it does. Under normal circumstances, fun-stick is splintered by full-sacs, but the defenders' hands are really kind of forced here. If they don't full-sac they'll end up dead and without their item.

Again, too much emphasis being placed on holding onto cabal item over fun stick.

And you could realistically have done something to prevent it from being taken, and you do not.

And then either a cabal leader or immortal notices you doing this (several times in a row over the course of a month or so)

One of the two will boot you from the cabal. Most likely after one or two verbal warnings, if the cabal leader is both a good leader and either notices it going on or listens to private notes from his cabal members.

This process is accelerated if your decisions repeatedly get your allies killed. The amount of actual leeway you have in this regard varies by cabal.

But all the above being said, funstick has nothing to do with being forced to full sac ragers lest they unghost/pincer you at half HP.

My primary argument here was that there is a reason to return to one's corpse in a raid situation, in contradiction to what CD asserted.
No one seems to have disagreed or rebutted that.

I have a contention with this principle:

>> Normally full-looting doesn't really gain you anything strategically, but in this case it does.
>>If they don't full-sac they'll end up dead and without their item.

So any time I could die and lose my item, I have a strategic justification to full sac someone? Really?

>>> Normally full-looting doesn't really gain you anything
>strategically, but in this case it does.
>>>If they don't full-sac they'll end up dead and without their
>item.
>
>So any time I could die and lose my item, I have a strategic
>justification to full sac someone? Really?
>

If you don't want to give the enemy cabal free CON, yes.

Is it fair, polite, sportsmanlike? Not at all.

The primary rebuttal was that there IS a reason to return to one's corpse. I believe your statement is not correct.

As far your statement about maledicts...the reason this situation does not come up with other characters is that most characters c word or quaff tele. Or, revert c word. Therefore, they constantly attack, heal up, and wear down/maledict the defender. They just have more options available to avoid dying. That is carrion fields.
If a shaman keeps running in, c rot, making you use up your sleek black rods, and wording out, he is "smart." This happens all the time, from every cabal, and is a major part of the game -- so why are you complaining about getting worn down by berserkers or having to pick up another sleek black?

There is a reasonable point here behind your flame -- maybe more maledicts should completely fade away, when the inflicter dies, in general. This would contribute to less efficiency in ganking, and maybe less cannon fodder sacrificing.

The reality is, battleragers don't have the healing options available to most other classes, so this situation is even less likely for the reason you discuss.

As far as what I do in-game: my noteworthy characters are usually defending against these sort of tactics, and I'm usually scrupulous in returning better gear than I have unless they or their cabalmate left me with open slots earlier. I find I have a lot more fun fights that way.

Do you honestly think you are convincing imms reading this discussion to change policy based on calling people idiot or making ad hominem attacks?

.

...that everyone who dies in your cabal should be full-looted (to disuade the type of behavior you are talking about) and watch as the playerbase character assassinates you because A) they don't understand the rule and B) they don't even realize no one followed that rule anyway.

It is the biggest problem I've faced as a nexun. While you might defend well the first time. They die but come right back almost of equal power unless you full loot(which you cannot usually as there are several). And even if you knock out the key element. They just reform shortly after(protected from fly-to no doubt with an advantage to safely getting away).

The raid should be ended or continued by those who survive.

gr

And ragers are ugly too.

This is the worst thing ever for the village.
You all can use healers... WE CANNOT.
We thist and kill two of you in a raid...
Thirst wears off... you both come back fully healed...
We are bleeding out or slowed and plagued and #### and if we are not, but we thirsted now we are fatigued and cannot regen any moves at all, any HP at all, any Mana at all...
Ok take thirst out of it, we are still dealing with having just fought and we are in need of healing which requires us to rest/sleep.

You press the raid 90 seconds later...

DEAD villager, and you hardly deserved it.
Oh and maybe this time you bring 3 more pals from other cabals.

I agree, the death in a raid should take you out of the raid...

Simple fix. Ghosts do not get auto attacked by the inner guardians.
If ghosts auto-assist into them or attack, they get slayed just like outters...

Make it so the you can keep the standard repop time of x mins or tics if you are a ####, or say I am a hero now, I got balls, I want my repop time to be faster because I don't care about having guys hunt me down naked... Repop now is <x mins or tics or whatever.

Ok you want to keep the second wave of attack, it comes a little faster = more raids still keep going but at least you are not dealing with back to back to back con whores healing up and fighting again instantly...

Thats my 2cents.

Both those that shorten it and lengthen it.

Considering your current is guilty of this type of ####. 98% of the time the people abusing this are villagers at the nexun island.


Not stop being a joke.

Or you are trolling for effect?

It's not reallllly clear...

nt

I googled this to make sure it wasn't a fantasy name, This will mark the 2nd name I've used that basically means 'sex' in some other slang/language. Like this time, that other time was also un-intentional... Then again "Boffing" has 2 F's....maybe Bofin is like 3rd base instead "Almost Boffing" haha