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Valkenar | Sat 05-Jan-13 04:07 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1203 posts
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#48288, "Arial int"
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I guess the consensus was that arials were op. I'd point out however that going between that 23-22 int threshold takes off something like 60 hitpoints at hero. That's a pretty significant percentage of an assassin's hp, but more significantly arial mage was already a dubious choice, and with 22 int and 300 exp pen it seems all the more dubious.
Personally I think that the solution is to remove train hp and apply racial hp bonuses to compensate.
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RE: Arial int,
Illanthos,
05-Jan-13 11:46 PM, #6
Rofl,
Marcus_,
06-Jan-13 08:29 AM, #7
RE: Rofl,
Illanthos,
06-Jan-13 10:38 AM, #9
RE: Rofl,
Marcus_,
06-Jan-13 11:38 AM, #10
RE: Rofl,
Illanthos,
06-Jan-13 01:20 PM, #12
What marcus is saying is that,
Cenatar_,
06-Jan-13 01:13 PM, #13
RE: What marcus is saying is that,
Illanthos,
06-Jan-13 02:06 PM, #14
Dex and parry,
Valkenar,
06-Jan-13 02:01 PM, #16
RE: Dex and parry,
Daevryn,
06-Jan-13 02:36 PM, #17
RE: Dex and parry,
Dallevian,
06-Jan-13 02:38 PM, #18
RE: Dex and parry,
Daevryn,
06-Jan-13 02:45 PM, #19
That is pretty much not at all true.,
Vortex Magus,
06-Jan-13 03:45 PM, #22
RE: Arial int,
Isildur,
05-Jan-13 04:14 PM, #1
It would mess up high wis races badly.,
DurNominator,
05-Jan-13 06:19 PM, #2
RE: It would mess up high wis races badly.,
Isildur,
05-Jan-13 06:39 PM, #3
RE: It would mess up high wis races badly.,
Graatch,
05-Jan-13 06:44 PM, #4
RE: It would mess up high wis races badly.,
Isildur,
06-Jan-13 09:28 AM, #8
RE: It would mess up high wis races badly.,
Graatch,
06-Jan-13 12:30 PM, #11
There are other stats to train.,
Vortex Magus,
06-Jan-13 03:08 PM, #20
RE: It would mess up high wis races badly.,
Isildur,
06-Jan-13 03:34 PM, #21
Have you ever played a gnome mage? nt,
DurNominator,
06-Jan-13 08:37 PM, #23
Training hp,
Valkenar,
06-Jan-13 01:56 PM, #15
What's "a little"?,
Valkenar,
05-Jan-13 08:02 PM, #5
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Illanthos | Sat 05-Jan-13 11:46 PM |
Member since 14th Oct 2011
274 posts
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#48294, "RE: Arial int"
In response to Reply #0
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Arials are most comparable to Dwarves, statwise.
They both gain hydrophobia and drown vulnerability so that racial cancels out.
Ultimately, what it boils down to is that:
Lightning vuln + inherent flight + wingsweep > resist magic + forgecraft + detect secret passage
Which is a sentiment that I do not necessarily agree with.
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Illanthos | Sun 06-Jan-13 10:36 AM |
Member since 14th Oct 2011
274 posts
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#48297, "RE: Rofl"
In response to Reply #7
Edited on Sun 06-Jan-13 10:38 AM
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Dwarf: 25, 22, 19, 19, 18 Arial: 25, 22, 20, 19, 18
They are indeed quite similar.
I am not saying that Dwarf stats and Arial stats are most similar, simply that they are most comparable due to both having a similar attribute distribution (numerically), hydrophobia (which is a difficult mechanic to rate how penalizing it is in competitive play) and a similar experience penalty (250 vs 300)
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Illanthos | Sun 06-Jan-13 01:04 PM |
Member since 14th Oct 2011
274 posts
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#48300, "RE: Rofl"
In response to Reply #10
Edited on Sun 06-Jan-13 01:20 PM
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No races have comparable stats! They cannot be balanced relative to each other! They exist entirely in vacuum!
If you have a better comparison, I'd like to hear it.
Edited to add:
Although I do appreciate you drawing to my attention to this paragraph. I neglected to take into consideration dwarven resist poison/disease.
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Cenatar_ | Sun 06-Jan-13 01:13 PM |
Member since 08th Jan 2006
85 posts
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#48301, "What marcus is saying is that"
In response to Reply #12
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Pretty much every good player would pick 25 dex/18 con before 25 con/18 dex for a melee class. Especially if 23 int makes it possible to train hp more and that reduces the hp gap even more.
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Illanthos | Sun 06-Jan-13 01:36 PM |
Member since 14th Oct 2011
274 posts
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#48302, "RE: What marcus is saying is that"
In response to Reply #13
Edited on Sun 06-Jan-13 02:06 PM
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But Thera is not solely populated by melee classes. Arial mages were something of a minority to begin with, and this change would serve to broaden the gap.
For melee classes, dwarves have 22 strength vs the arial 19. This equates to a better parry, and a higher success rate on the many melee-ish skills that require strength. Combined with 20% resistance to fire, acid, cold, lightning, and energy, dwarves become a solid pick (in my humble opinion).
I suspect we'll need to watch how these changes play out before forming any solid conclusions.
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Valkenar | Sun 06-Jan-13 02:01 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1203 posts
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#48304, "Dex and parry"
In response to Reply #14
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>For melee classes, dwarves have 22 strength vs the arial 19. >This equates to a better parry, and a higher success rate on
Dex has less impact than parry than str, but stat impact is semi-exponential. Does 22 str/18 dex parry better than 19str/25 dex? I'm not so sure it does.
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Daevryn | Sun 06-Jan-13 02:36 PM |
Member since 13th Feb 2007
11117 posts
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#48305, "RE: Dex and parry"
In response to Reply #16
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> Does 22 str/18 dex parry better than 19str/25 dex?
Yes, assuming flourintine isn't relevant.
Also, spin/dodge is a whole other issue obviously.
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Dallevian | Sun 06-Jan-13 02:38 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1639 posts
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#48306, "RE: Dex and parry"
In response to Reply #17
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Flour is dexterity based?
I imagine riposte is?
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Daevryn | Sun 06-Jan-13 02:45 PM |
Member since 13th Feb 2007
11117 posts
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#48307, "RE: Dex and parry"
In response to Reply #18
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>Flour is dexterity based? > > I imagine riposte is?
Yes and yes.
Granted, parry itself has strength as a factor, so for a sword warrior, STR and DEX are roughly of equal value in parrying.
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Vortex Magus | Sun 06-Jan-13 03:42 PM |
Member since 20th Apr 2005
400 posts
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#48310, "That is pretty much not at all true."
In response to Reply #13
Edited on Sun 06-Jan-13 03:45 PM
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>Pretty much every good player would pick 25 dex/18 con before 25 con/18 dex for a melee class. Especially if 23 int makes it possible to train hp more and that reduces the hp gap even more.
I think Marcus is mostly referring to how the classic dwarf and giant builds are entirely the opposite build form to arials and elves, so its absurd to try and compare dwarves and arials as if their builds were even remotely related.
There are a lot of builds and a lot of matchups where I'd pick a dwarf spec/legacy setup over an arial. Thing is, they're pretty much the exact opposite warrior archetype~
Squishy dexy hit and run maledict spec versus brick wall tanky offensive spec.
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DurNominator | Sat 05-Jan-13 06:19 PM |
Member since 08th Nov 2004
2018 posts
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#48290, "It would mess up high wis races badly."
In response to Reply #1
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Gnomes in particular would take the shaft.
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Graatch | Sat 05-Jan-13 06:44 PM |
Member since 14th Apr 2010
167 posts
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#48292, "RE: It would mess up high wis races badly."
In response to Reply #3
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And do what with all the practices they now can't use?
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Graatch | Sun 06-Jan-13 12:30 PM |
Member since 14th Apr 2010
167 posts
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#48299, "RE: It would mess up high wis races badly."
In response to Reply #8
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Ok, again, what would you do with all the practices you now can't use to train hp or mana?
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Vortex Magus | Sun 06-Jan-13 03:08 PM |
Member since 20th Apr 2005
400 posts
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#48308, "There are other stats to train."
In response to Reply #11
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Namely con and strength when you get to old age and the like.
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DurNominator | Sun 06-Jan-13 08:35 PM |
Member since 08th Nov 2004
2018 posts
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#48329, "Have you ever played a gnome mage? nt"
In response to Reply #21
Edited on Sun 06-Jan-13 08:37 PM
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Why do you need to stock con to get 75 additional deaths? Most of the people who die that much have leader con.
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Valkenar | Sun 06-Jan-13 01:56 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1203 posts
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#48303, "Training hp"
In response to Reply #8
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>1. It advantages throwaway characters. If you know you're not >going to live to be old and/or die enough times to need to >train up your con then why not convert all your spare >trains and practices into hp? If, however, you think you're >going to play a character to age/con death then maybe you >conserve them for when they're needed in the future.
I'm not big on throwaway characters, but I always convert all my spare trains and pracs. But maybe you think a character that lasts for a paltry 250 hours is a throwaway. As for con, I completely suck at PK, but I'm still not going to run out of con before I delete unless I'm being completely reckless. Anyhow, I'd generally rather be stronger for a shorter period of time.
And actually I disagree about it rewarding character who are cautious or avoid PK. Half the reason training hp a lot makes sense for me is because I'm going to have garbage eq anyway, because I don't play cautiously enough to keep any worthwhile gear. So the hp from trains represents a much higher percent of my total than someone like you who is decked out all the time.
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Valkenar | Sat 05-Jan-13 08:02 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1203 posts
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#48293, "What's "a little"?"
In response to Reply #3
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>Up their hp gains a little to compensate.
6 pracs = 6 hp/level. With trains it's something like 9. That's close to double a mage's base gains. Also this applies to other races similarly. A 23 int arial's are probably 10-15%.
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