When looking closely, one can notice the many ways immortals directly influence a character's success.

Here are some examples of how I think immortals influence character success:

1. Empowerment - Self explanatory. You must have an immortal's approval to even play a character correctly after level 20 as an empowerment class.
2. Tattoos - Again, self explanatory, typically have powers that go off and are beneficial to the player, or harmful to his/her enemies.
3. Imm exp - This provides several benefits, most notably in the ability to select more edges, that are otherwise not available without receiving imm xp. Devious Versatility is an example of such an edge.
4. Role contests - These have, over the course of history, provided such things as barrier to characters, special familiars, special conjurations, quest skills, quest forms, bonus stats beyond racial typical maximums, and much, much more. In other cases, rewards were effectively worthless. The only data available to us as players cannot be construed in any way other than a way that indicates that the immortals running a given role contest give characters and players they like the best rewards in a very inconsistent manner.
5. Direct rewards - These are typically similar to #4 in terms of how they can provide direct benefits to players.
6. Cabal presence/induction - Some cabals have required immortal approval, such as Tribunal for evils, Scions currently, while some like Battle allow mostly mortal induction.
7. Direct penalties - Immortals have over the course of time applied penalties to characters they didn't like, that are well documented on exterior sites.
8. Cabal promotions - Typically the immortals decide the leadership of a cabal which provides small, yet still existent benefits to the character in question. Maran are an example of this as well as actual leadership of cabals.
9. PBF comments - Quite often PBF comments will paint a character in a specific light. Yet often these comments are listed as 'An Immortal'. Why are any PBF comments incognito, or anonymous? Why are all rewards not logged in the PBF? How can we as players view this lack of transparency as anything other than an attempt to conceal?
10. RP'ing with mortals - This type of interaction can really make those characters who are not affected at all by numbers 1-9. If I am a strictly RP character who is clearly not focused on PK, the RP and interaction from immortals can be the thing that helps a character fully experience they envisioned upon creation.

So is there a way that we can find a happy medium where immortals can still enjoy the game and make it better for players, while also insuring that immortals aren't the single biggest impact on character success?

Right now if you are a character (or a player if you are a conspiracy theorist), and the immortals think you are just average (or worse yet, don't like you), you are already behind a huge curve against that player who has the same PK skill as you, but the immortals like.

I would absolutely love to have a discussion on how this particular situation could mature, going forward.

1. Empowerment- It's a choice you make at char creation whether you want to go that route. It's a self imposed choice to play one and thus need immortal attention to ascend the power scale for that class. That said, most priests don't have trouble getting empowered fully and most imms are pretty helpful about people learning their religions.

2. Tattoos - Tattoos are nice. They also have to be earned by virtue of being a good follower of that religion. I got a tattoo, yay it's OP. In order to get that tat, I had to give up all magic as a paladin. Most religions place additional restraints on chars they would not otherwise have, and in so enduring those added restraints eventually they may get a tattoo or something else to reward them for that effort.

3. Imm Xp- Roles are not hard to write, and they give the player a chance to explain their RP paths so that the Imms can know if you are RPing your char or not. And having such may lead to random imm xp as a reward for following that role. I always find my roles eventually get acknowledged, though it usually will take some time. But every single player has access to this avenue of imm xp. Imm xp requirements for edge I'd agree might be something to address, but I don't think it's a big deal to get those edges, outside of maybe DV for thieves. Then again, I don't know all the edges that have imm xp requirements.

4. RC- You're right, here chars do get rewards, often times things generally that can not be attained without an Imm. They are also not that common to win though. Toning down or modifying RCs is a different discussion though. Imms here have some freedom to do what they want, but it's not absolute. I.e. They won't give my fire giant warrior the barrier spell, lifesurge and canoewhack for a RC win. Things are rarely as OP as people think them to be, though I'd agree there are certainly some things stronger than others.

5. Direct Rewards- Are usually earned over a rather lengthy period of time. Those who want to put effort into pursuing such may or may not be rewarded for it. Most people who get them though, don't usually set out to get a specific thing, as making it clear you want something is usually the best way to deter an Imm from giving it to you. 500 Imm xp from a snoop really isn't doing much for me in terms of edges for example. It's more an acknolwedgement by the Imm of hey, that was nicely done what you did there.

6. Cabal- I fail to even see this as an Imm relevant thing. Scion always has limits and more stringent requirements for induction. Trib was not always that way, and may not always be that way for evil. The game evolves in part due to how mortals influence it just as much as immortals. Reksah giving Twist the spot was an open announcement on which Twist finally rolled a char over a month, so you're wrong there, as he would have Imm inducted anyone who rolled a necro and pledged.

7. Penalties- I can recall few cases of this where it was not warranted. Looking at stuff on other sites is not always facts, it's people largely presenting their side in a light most favorable to them. I think the only bad penalty I ever saw was Jindicho getting shafted a bit, but I also really liked that char IC so I have a bias there. Sometimes, players leave Imms with no choice but to bring down the hammer though, and lots of times any punishment can be undone IC through RP and such.

8. Promotions- They go to those who earn them. Yeah, Imms have to use judgment in picking people, but cabals differ. Look at Nexus, those leaders are chosen by popular vote, so go that route if you want a shot at leading without Imm involvement. Empire is largely the same, no Imm need be involved in you making emperor. Leading is also a burden as much as it is a perk, and many chars actively avoid filling those spots. That leaders get some perks is for the fact they now have to be exemplary cabal members, handle inductions, discipline chars and all that.

9. PBF comments- Because it leads people to attacking Imms for their decisions I would think and some Imms just don't want to deal with a PB demanding everything they ever do be justified and explained to their satisfaction. They're Imms, they're also people. Allowing them to have personal discretion is a good thing in that it allows them to enjoy playing CF same as we the players do. Not having to be accountable really to the PB is necessary for Imms, as no matter what you can't please all people all the time. Imms already are accountable to the staff as it is where as we as players largely are not. We can choose to play if we want, and we can play however we want. That IC actions have IC ramifications is just a part of CF.

10. RPing with mortals- Imms have schedules and lives, and can't always be available. It's a roll of the dice and sometimes you get lucky and othertimes you miss out. But usually, you can catch up with an Imm if you try to.

Eleagra. 314 pks. No role. Had both negative and positive commentary from Imms. Shredded my bard commander as well as other "rewarded" characters to pieces at will. I think he did just fine in terms of being PK successful without an Imm doing much of anything for him.

Also keep in mind no two people have the exact same PK skill.
They're also usually not playing identical chars that have had the exact same char progression. People relatively worse than me at PK killed me. People relatively better died to me. That's CF. Rewards help a char to a small degree, but it's pretty much the relative skill + build + build familiarity of the two people that determines the outcome of fights, not who the imm likes more. An imm favoring or having rewarded one of the people may be a boost to some of those factors for that player at times, but it is not entirely outcome determinative.

The biggest impact on char success is in fact the player behind the char and how they define success and what they do IC to achieve it. If a player wants to seek out an imm to try and get some rewards, that's a choice of the player. If I want a quest form, I know step 1 is to roll a shifter. Step 2 is to be consistent, and RP out my char's life and stick to the RP. Step 3 is to be patient and see if it happens or not.

Just thoughts.

Thanks for these responses.

I appreciate the discussion, will give some thought to your post and try and respond.

Eleagra is a great example of a character who was not rewarded much and the player seems not well-liked by the staff.

Believe Eleagra's player and another quit after those characters due to immortals rewarding their enemies and not them.

I've tried to respond to this post like five times, and the problem is there are just a lot of incorrect assumptions you make, which creates a disconnect. Also, the types of immortal influence you list are just too varied in their purpose and impact to deal with them like this as a discussion of "immortal involvement."

One thing I can comment on because it's the most critical part of this conversation to me personally, is the importance of being religious if you want immteraction (and rewards). Religious-ness, and constantly seeking immortal attention, is what separates the Isildurs (massively successful chars with little interaction/rewards) from the Amberions (massively successful characters with quest forms, bonus legacies, etc.).

I understand that's not for all players. It's certainly not for me. Frankly I suck at it. I mean, I'd fork over $100 for chain lightning, but I have a sense of nervousness heading into Bear's shrine to try to RP in hopes of one day getting the spell. But it's one of the ways to play CF that will have certain rewards, just like playing for PK or exploration or whatever.

The thing to keep in mind, however, is that the rewards are uncertain, and not all rewards are created equal. So you have to be e type of person that will be just as happy getting 10 mins of an imm's time, or a special title, as you would getting fire blood. Otherwise, you'll probably find religious ness and immteraction disappointing.

Everyone now wants imm-xp since it gives visible benefits. It gives more edge selections which directly benefit players. This change to the game created a situation where, in my opinion, you have to be liked by the staff to have a real chance at success against those strong players who the immortals love. Seems to me that now CF consists of two groups; players who get consistently rewarded, and others who just want to play the game with no immortal involvement.

To me, it's hard to get fired up for a game where I know I have to be beholden in-game to someone else just to stack up and play even up against the other guys. I just don't have that issue with the other games I play.

Also what should we expect when a lot of the players who get the best rewards don't claim bad ass characters when they die? If this was politics it would be a national investigation.

It does not strain the intellect to deduce that players that consistently gain immortal rewards are consistently engaging in behaviour that immortals reward.

...Sort of like how skilled golfers consistently perform well at golf.

If you're good at something, you will reap the benefits of your skill, be it in RP, PK, exploration, role writing, or any other expression of creativity that enriches the CF experience.

My issue is that some are not consistently demonstrating the behaviours. Some demonstrate them in front of the immortal, or when things are going nicely for them, but turn into total jerks when they are not.

That is more the fault of the player base. On dios most of the big names are getted flamed to high hell by the players over there. Conspiracies, saying the only reason they win is because imms like them, Rewards are too powerful, They weren't perfect at this or that, They had bad Roleplay, ect. Most people seek approval for the good they do but when they see through their entire character all the bs and hate shot their way I can see why they wouldn't want to show themselves. And No it isn't that way. I don't get large rewards...or any rewards. Why? because I don't do anything that deems that. Not committed enough, my RP isn't good enough, and my pk ability is still lacking (in my eyes atleast).

People say I defend the imms not true I attack what I see as constant stupidity. If there is one thing in life that I can snuff out..would be the lack of thought. Stop looking at everyone else for your lack of drive to play/lack of rewards. Bottom line its up to you to put in the work to get better/do better.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

I.
The bottom line is that you do not need Immortal intervention to "have a real chance at success against those strong players who the immortals love."

I know because my characters rarely get rewarded, and objectively, they are competitive. Malakhi, for example, had the 2nd most PKs for a rager of all time - and the only reward I got was an RC legacy (Forsaken) that was actually pretty hurtful to a rager, which relies on free heals from the Battle Healer. (By the way, the rager with the most PKs, Djabree, didn't get any imm rewards that I know of, either.) My next mortal after that was, among other things, a cabal leader for 300-400 hours, had the most PKs ever for the align/class combo, and conquered an area explore challenge that no one thought was possible -- and that character didn't even get a cabal edge.

My point is, I believe that if I can succeed at this game without imm rewards, then anyone can. And you should believe that, too.

II.
Personally, I don't like to claim my characters because I am delusional and egotistical, and love each one of my characters so much that I think their CF legend will live forever. That never happens. In 15+ years, people only remember one character that I've played Doesn't stop me from not claiming them.

I can't speak for the "badass" characters that you're thinking of, but maybe their rationale is the same as mine?

III.
I already told you that if you want Immortal attention, you should make your character religious. Unless your character was religious and didn't get any attention, I'm not sure you can really be too upset. You totally fail to address that - which is kind of disappointing, because there is a legitimate debate over whether a character should *need* to be religious to get Imm attention (in reality, it's a matter of practicality - there are limited Imms with limited resources and it's just flat out easier to keep track of and evaluate characters seeking you out).

Might improve my image a bit

You da best still man. ####ing bleh on you having Forsaken. I should have known no wonder I could never outdamage you with wrath weapons!

"conquered an area explore challenge that no one
thought was possible"

But I am curious what this is... Mostly because I don't talk to basically anyone ooc so I don't know what people think is impossible and whatnot. If there are challenges out there, I'd be most interested in knowing them.

i.e. No mortal has ever fully completed the Prison of Glymarach puzzles.
or No mortal has ever seen every room in the 3rd circle of hell, etc.

I mean, knowing things to shoot for is always fun.

All of the good exploring is for the most part done, and like the world we live in today, it's for the most part mapped and charted and known. With hell being closed and silent tower being seasonal, there is not going to be hardly anything in the mud that people haven't done several times over before. Some things you could shoot for though, if you wanted a list of difficult to reach goals:

1) Clear the Octogonal tower completely. Easier said than done.

2) If you do not know it already, try and complete the Ktengs quest without anyone telling you how.

3)If you don't know it already, try to complete the Enpolads Chess quest without anyone telling you how.

4)Nizarsh quest. Same as 2 and 3, give it a shot.

5)Down all of the ancient dragons then Tiamat.

6)Defeat the Kuo-Toa King. Not an easy task.

7)Find the mad priest in Eil-Shaiera (difficult to figure out maze)

8)Gather the axe abomination from Yzekion (Personally tried this several times, only seen 1 group ever succeed in all my CF time. Less than have down Tiamat for sure.)

That's just off the top of my head, but most of those aren't done very often if ever anymore so pulling them off get you cool points imo.

Even if you've already done them, it's fun to try and do them again (the non-puzzle based ones at least)

1) Never done that solo, only in a group.

2) Never done that.

3) That is a good one.

4) That one is also a good one, took me a long time to figure it all out but managed to do it solo.

5) This is still a goal of every char of mine, even if I've done it already.

6) Done that, but also saw a guy do it solo. That was nuts.

7) Have yet to explore that place.

8) Never attempted this one, only heard about it, is on my short list of things to do. Along with hell when it reopens.

The one I will add one to the list.
Wield the dragon ( i think that was the name of it) and get it past the guardian. I've never seen anyone do that, and I can't say I'm even sure anyone knows how to anymore as I would think if anyone did they would be rocking that thing all the time with every character.

I saw an item ID of it in 2009 or so, still no idea how to get it (I understand the area/quest/idea behind it but I'm not the best at hero-range quests).

That's another quest that I'd love to "try" but I have no idea how to start it. It's the quest that gets you the talisman of exploration (which I have a vague idea of the badassery of this item) and I know where one of the main items you need to get it is (no idea how to get that item though).

There's also a door that isn't a door somewhere that will drive me crazy the rest of my CF life and Panda probably won't ever tell me what it is.

It's pretty easy to get the dragon (hell, I figured it out on my own and I suck at puzzles) I just have no idea how to leave with it so that I can actually use it. I guess that's the tricky part.

Damn the mysteries of CF that keep me coming back!
Those and one day wanting to get a Zulgh tattoo with a character, that's what it is all about.

As long as you know Silent like the back of your hand

I've done 1, 2 (with help), 5 (all but Tiamat booo), 6.

I don't agree with you about the current state of things, therefore we lack the common ground for a reasonable discussion.

I listed ten, which specific number(s) do you disagree with?

1-10.

Or maybe the underlying thought process behind each of them, if you want to look at it that way.

Thanks for posting, it was very informative.

It's either that or be insulting. I'm trying to take the high road.

After all you pretty much represent the definition of the word biased on this subject

May as well just abandon the thread, clearly I was the only one who wanted actual open discussion.

I suspect that he rejects the premise that Immortals dictate the success or failure of a character, when it is in fact the merits of the character in and of themselves that do this.

Would you consider Stevers to be a 'successful character', if he was tatt'd and had four legacies, three weapon specs, and sapper training?

No, I wouldn't either. (Sorry Stevers!)

considering the only character that can come close to that is Woldrun and I believe Thror was inactive at the time

Given that Woldrun was Twist.


Even if I loved that character and I love Twist for his efforts at transparency, how can a player like myself not get frustrated at continually seeing immortal characters and "Unknown" players keep getting hooked up by immortals when we read PBFs? At least Twist has the balls to admit his characters and for that I love him and have 0 criticisms. Even if he is hiding something (I don't think he is), his efforts at transparency convey a feeling of correctness. I admit I don't get that same feeling when I see some non-claimed character got 10 rewards.

Successful in general? Perhaps not.

That said how is that remotely fair to the guy who has to fight him every day? Character 1 has numerous imm-given rewards that are the very definition of an un-level playing field when compared with his enemy who has 0 of those rewards. It's simple math and logic, not some far-out opinion that I just came up with.

But the place you started from was less no biased than where I am and assumes a number of things that I think are wrong.

I mean, maybe I want an open discussion about the top ten reasons your mother is a ##### and how we can get her to be less of a #####. Assuming that you, in fact, think your mother is not a #####, do you see how that doesn't really work even if I claim to just want to talk about it?

>But the place you started from was less no biased than where
>I am and assumes a number of things that I think are wrong.

The place I started was fact-based, or so I thought. Are the specific 10 examples incorrect? If so, how specifically are they incorrect?

I am a player, I can only comment on my perspective. Obviously it differs from yours. Of course, the wrinkle there is that you receive all the benefits and I receive the negatives of maintaining the current status quo. Perhaps I am mistaken? Was there a pbf I missed where a player the staff hates got hooked up like some other players have?

>I mean, maybe I want an open discussion about the top ten
>reasons your mother is a ##### and how we can get her to be
>less of a #####. Assuming that you, in fact, think your
>mother is not a #####, do you see how that doesn't
>really work even if I claim to just want to talk about it?

See, this was my fear. I hoped for open discussion. You seemed to take it as "Player is saying imms are being shady" No one said anything shady was going on, just that the situation currently hugely favors players the immortals like. How can you argue it doesn't? I can point to specific cases if that helps foster a constructive argument?

I think it can be said this could have been a flame if that was my intent. My intent was to come up with a solution that didn't require a player to be an immortal follower just to compete with those players who know how to get rewards.

The first question you pose is saying that imms are the main factor in a character being sucessful (which is untrue).

You also assert that if imms dont like a player that they are behind a curve (which is untrue, unless they are exploitive characters). People already stated examples of players that are examples of this. The only people that should be behind the curve are those who create ####ty characters.

I believe you are attributing too much of this to the Player and not enough to the Character. A good player will play a good character (most likely).

If what you said was true, ever single imm played character would be uber awesome and fully rewarded. Which is not the case.

I dont think you layed this out for a constructive argument at all. There is nothing to argue. If you had a suggestion how to make lesser characters better (or more rewarded) if they RP their role well, then I would agree. But that is not what you did.

Honestly all you did was label a whole bunch of things that are not broken as broken and focused on the wrong part of what you perceive to be a problem.

>The first question you pose is saying that imms are the main
>factor in a character being sucessful (which is untrue).

Do you have some evidence to support this? Who are the most successful characters in CF history? Pick 10. Now how many of those didn't get ANY imm-rewards?

>You also assert that if imms dont like a player that they are
>behind a curve (which is untrue, unless they are exploitive
>characters). People already stated examples of players that
>are examples of this. The only people that should be behind
>the curve are those who create ####ty characters.

I complete disagree with this and use math as my argument. If two players play identical characters and they have identical skill, it cannot be argued that the player who has been given imm rewards does not have an advantage over the player who has 0. Its basic math. How can you refute that?

>If what you said was true, ever single imm played character
>would be uber awesome and fully rewarded. Which is not the
>case.

No, I said it was the biggest factor, not the only factor.


>I dont think you layed this out for a constructive argument at
>all. There is nothing to argue. If you had a suggestion how to
>make lesser characters better (or more rewarded) if they RP
>their role well, then I would agree. But that is not what you
>did.

My suggestion? Stop rewarding players for normal behavior. You wrote a role? Why is that a reward situation? Make edges have NO imm-xp component. All edges should be player-driven. Writing ability should not give PK benefits, in my opinion. Especially when everything about the CF staff-rewards program is subjective, and not defined anywhere.

>Honestly all you did was label a whole bunch of things that
>are not broken as broken and focused on the wrong part of what
>you perceive to be a problem.

Honestly how can you not see the ocean from the beach? How can you pretend that an imm-reward doesn't give an advantage? How can you pretend that those players who aren't favored are not at a disadvantage (not necessarily insurmountable) against a player who gets rewarded with every character (because they know the formula).
It just seems like a disingenuous argument.

You remind me of pro due to the asinine assumptions. Your stating obvious things but they don't make any sense to the point that was being made.

I will point out why there is no grounds to have a constructive agruement.

You have already assumed that a character that the imms dislike will not be reward. This is not true. Sam/TMGNGNG whatever is likely disliked he was rewarded well. Kanye I believe had a well rewarded character and he is a ####. No offense but you are. Hell Jerry is terrible to deal with but he has gotten rewards.

People like Funnyone and Pro don't get rewards because they either have sub par RP or don't spend enough time playng and give up too much. People like Enyuu, Legobelt, and me (Not saying any of you don't get anything) (Oh and I do't know any of these people outside) are likely still learning to play better and will eventually have highly notable character.

People like Amberion/Battlecharmed/Jmc/Jalim/Twist (I don't know many names just the ones I can remember). All make the game better, have different characters each well RPed, LONGLIVED, and PK well. It isn't because they are more liked its because they have been playing the game a while and understand what is liked and disliked.

All I'm going to say is...look at yourself for the issue instead of blaming others. Rewards do give an edge but they aren't given out based on who is liked most. They are given out by who deserves them.

This is why it can't be agrued in a constructive way. Your opinion doesn't make sense because the FACTs show otherwise. Character success is based on luck, opportunity, and most importantly YOU.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

>You remind me of pro due to the asinine assumptions. Your
>stating obvious things but they don't make any sense to the
>point that was being made.

Insulting a player not even in this thread, and myself, are not helping you make any points.

>You have already assumed that a character that the imms
>dislike will not be reward. This is not true. Sam/TMGNGNG
>whatever is likely disliked he was rewarded well. Kanye I
>believe had a well rewarded character and he is a ####. No
>offense but you are. Hell Jerry is terrible to deal with but
>he has gotten rewards.

Where do I assume that? I said only that a character who has no rewards is at a disadvantage to a player who has rewards. How can this be argued?

>People like Funnyone and Pro don't get rewards because they
>either have sub par RP or don't spend enough time playng and
>give up too much. People like Enyuu, Legobelt, and me (Not
>saying any of you don't get anything) (Oh and I do't know any
>of these people outside) are likely still learning to play
>better and will eventually have highly notable character.

That's fine, my point is those rewards shouldn't give the other characters in-game advantages over Funnyone's. How cool you are in the CF high-school shouldn't affect how tough you are in-game.

>People like Amberion/Battlecharmed/Jmc/Jalim/Twist (I don't
>know many names just the ones I can remember). All make the
>game better, have different characters each well RPed,
>LONGLIVED, and PK well. It isn't because they are more liked
>its because they have been playing the game a while and
>understand what is liked and disliked.

Thats fine, why do they need to be so rewarded? Could they not do all of that without immortal rewards growing out of their asses?

>All I'm going to say is...look at yourself for the issue
>instead of blaming others. Rewards do give an edge but they
>aren't given out based on who is liked most. They are given
>out by who deserves them.

All I'm going to say is...did you even read the thread? I am not blaming anyone for anything. I am stating what I believe to be facts. Some disagree, none have posted anything other than opinion to the 10 specific things I posted.

>This is why it can't be agrued in a constructive way. Your
>opinion doesn't make sense because the FACTs show otherwise.
>Character success is based on luck, opportunity, and most
>importantly YOU.

Success maybe but power surely comes from imm-gifts. Maybe I should have said power in my initial post, not success.

nt

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

The main factors of a sucessful character are an original role idea, learning something with the character, role playing a character better than your last, having fun in general, pk if that is a goal, and immteraction if that is a goal. Sucess is subjective.

You measure sucess differently than I do...meaning we have no common ground to argue upon.

And then you come back to me with giving you ten of the top rewarded? That is not the point! People are rewardedyou based on how well they RP/PK/Play.Did you even read my first post? Your interchangeably using sucess and rewards. I can have a sucessful character with no rewards. If you are defining sucess with pk power then again. Your measurements are invalid. We are measuring different things. I remember character by my interactions with them. Not by pk records. Welcome to new math. Player plays a character well - should he get rewarded? Yes.
Player plays a character but never RPs. Should he get rewarded? No.
And btw we cannot test your math theory at all since you will never have the exact same experience playing the same thing every time. So in that scientific brain of yours, tell me what controls you are missing?

How do you not have writing ability as a factor in a text based game? Its like saying that RP should not be a factor in an RP/PK game.

I think you have a jaded view of the game. I'm not sure if you just havnt reached the learning/rp curve for the game or what. But your viewpoint is ever so skewed. Those who RP their roles well should be rewarded period. If you dont agree with that, then i dont know what to tell you. Sorry?

Anyway, I dont have time to debate further. So much more work to do IRL.

Okay. See, I know you don't need to follow an immortal to compete. If anything it's rarer that the toughest PK character on the MUD does than doesn't. That's not really my opinion so much as numbers and math.

So we differ because you perceive a problem to be addressed where I don't think there is one.

You are the definition of biased. Every successful character you've claimed had ridiculous imm-rewards. Or am I wrong?

Nabighah
Cabdru
That bard you had in Outlander with insects
Solasarath or whoever your paladin was

I mean most players go their whole careers without any rewards like that. You get them with EVERY character. And they are always rewards that are just perfect for the character in question.

What about imms getting imm-inducted into cabals? Twist at like 5 hours or whatever by Reksah. Then he inducts your mortal? Are we supposed to think thats all coincidence and had nothing to do with you both being imms? How stupid do you think we players are?

How can you not see there is a disconnect here? Do you honestly think you aren't biased on this subject?

I don't for 1 second think I am wrong on this. I think though everyone is afraid to speak what they think because they don't want to get punished and be behind the very curve I speak of.

Your weird tinfoil hat conspiracy #### aside, you do realize you're mostly listing characters that got way more of their kills before getting any extra stuff, right?

Because if you realize that (and, again, it's not up for debate -- this is pure numbers) I don't know how you wouldn't feel really silly right now.

>I think it can be said this could have been a flame if that
>was my intent. My intent was to come up with a solution that
>didn't require a player to be an immortal follower just to
>compete with those players who know how to get rewards.
>

It is total #### that you waste my time trying to "discuss" this with you, above, and then pretend as though no one has tried to talk "facts" with you.

I already named a couple of my characters that competed successfully without Imm rewards. And yet you need more?

What overpowered rewards did Ktaar get?
What overpowered rewards did Sivyh get?
What overpowered rewards did Mizfara get?
What overpowered rewards did Sulye get?

Have you had any characters more successful than any of the above? Are you seriously claiming that none of the above characters were "successful" enough for you, or that they "couldn't compete" because they didn't have "special Imm rewards"?

It is impossible to have a conversation with you when you are making up "facts" and ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

I think it's time for you to give a fact. Name your character. Specifically, which character of yours do you think was woefully under-rewarded?

>It is total #### that you waste my time trying to "discuss"
>this with you, above, and then pretend as though no one has
>tried to talk "facts" with you.

What facts? You immortals rarely claim your characters. Now you demand I name mine to somehow validate my arguments? Tell you what, how about we make everyone name every character they played?

>I already named a couple of my characters that competed
>successfully without Imm rewards. And yet you need more?

You said:

"Malakhi, for example, had the 2nd most PKs for a rager of all time - and the only reward I got was an RC legacy (Forsaken) "

So thats your ONE example, who also got an imm-reward. So, your only example is actually an example for my argument? Maybe I am not reading correctly.

>What overpowered rewards did Ktaar get?
>What overpowered rewards did Sivyh get?
>What overpowered rewards did Mizfara get?
>What overpowered rewards did Sulye get?

Ktaar is you, if I am not mistaken, the imm. He was played before edges came into play, and this therefore is not the time period I take issue with.

Sivyh is a great example though. Why didn't he get rewarded? Numerous players and imms loved him. Why are immortal morts getting hooked up and Sivyh did not. This actually proves my point about the lack of consistency of rewards. Was he successful? Sure. Was he powerful without any imm rewards? Not particularly overpowered, no, just like it should be, imo. But if you want me to nit-pick, he did get edge points from Cyradia.

Sulye, same thing. If the character was so good in your mind, why didn't it get any rewards?


I think you aren't understanding my point. Its not "impossible" to be successful in PK or RP with a character with no rewards. What is the problem is that immortal rewards are too subjective, and too influential, to be so shrouded in secrecy, and so often times handed out to the same players (who are often imms themselves or don't claim their characters). When rewards are given they offer a large PK advantage to for a heavily rewarded character against a character who has 0 rewards. The evidence seems to indicate that the same players keep getting rewarded. Nowhere are the ways to get these rewards defined. Nowhere are the rewards consistently handed out. When the inconsistent hand-outs are checked, it is almost always the immortal characters or unclaimed characters who got the most unbalanced rewards.

>Have you had any characters more successful than any of the
>above? Are you seriously claiming that none of the above
>characters were "successful" enough for you, or that they
>"couldn't compete" because they didn't have "special Imm
>rewards"?

PK successful? Yeah. Successful in terms of titles/rewards, etc? No, probably not. I don't think any of those characters could compete with the over-rewarded characters I am speaking of.

So, let's say for a minute you are right. Why weren't these characters who you even admit were awesome, rewarded? Why are other characters getting huge rewards and these types of good ones get zip? That's kind of my whole argument.

>It is impossible to have a conversation with you when you are
>making up "facts" and ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

What made up facts? That nepenthe's characters have documented ridiculous rewards? And when players said he was Cabdru the imms said we were conspiracy theorists? What facts did I make up?

>I think it's time for you to give a fact. Name your
>character. Specifically, which character of yours do you
>think was woefully under-rewarded?

I'll answer this when you guys start recording in the PBF which imm hooked up the character, and when all characters must be claimed.

Marcus and Shapa. Unless you are of course measuring how successful a character is by how much immortal attention it gets.

Can immortals positively or negatively impact a character's perception and overall deathfulness? Unequivocally "yes". Do they generally reward characters who are undeserving and generally shaft characters who don't deserve to get the shaft? Not in my opinion.

They're human beings. Human beings are inconsistent. So I'd say the probability of a given staff member exhibiting absolute consistency over his or her immortal career is basically zero. Moreover, there are multiple staff members; the odds of two (or more) different human beings acting with absolute consistency is even smaller. That said, I think they do a fair job.

One of the biggest reasons to why I play CF is that your character can become unique (not only by your role that is) but mechanically so, if you just RP well enough.

Basically, what I'm saying is: If you RP well enough, anything can happen, and that's the main reason to why I love CF.

To clarify:
I don't play to get rewards. Quite often I roll up "throw-away" chars with just a basic role, just to explore or PK. Sometimes though, these chars manage to build up some sort of role and existance in CF... Well, now I'm rambling, because that's a bit off topic.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

I believe how YOU define character sucess is the problem. Not what the immortals are doing. A sucess of a character is measured in your eyes and the eyes of your peers.

You seem to forget that every character that you create is a sucess if you learn something. Or if you enjoy the rp that you bring to the game. Or even if you finally kill that thief that was annoying the crap out of you--that is sucess.

PK sucess is not what makes a good or even great experience. Nor is it measured by the perks you may or may not have gotten.

This brings me to the last point. Immortals are people. They play their role in keeping the game running.
If there is something your character did that an imm didnt like, you likely deserve no additional perks.
Yet that doesnt stop you from getting most edges or playing the game or even keep you from having fun.
Are there ways to make rewards more standard? Yes. But even an unrewarded character can be lots of fun. Ive personally played many characters with little to no reward. But still they were sucesses to me.

To sum up: Your measuring stick is broken. You are measuring with a partly opened slinky. As your definition of sucess is horribly flawed.

nt

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.