I'm not sure what the idea is with shifter forms. I sort of assume that all top tier forms are meant to be at least marginally equal in that they have their own strengths and weaknesses, but none of them are just flat out better than any others. Working from that (potentially flawed) premise, I must say that I believe that damage reduction forms are flat out better than any of the damage avoidance forms.

My thinking is as follows:

Take a form with 50% in born damage reduction and a form with 50% dodge* and lets compare. If you are tanking generic NPCs, these two forms will look roughly equal. RNG has more effect on the dodgy form, but roughly they will take the same number of strikes to reach zero hp.

However, in a PvP matchup, unblock-able damage makes the dodgy form into a corpse very quickly, where the dam redux form doesn't see the difference. They weren't relying on avoiding damage anyway.

That is an unfair comparison, of course, because dodgy forms tend to dodge skills and spells as well. I don't believe any of them dodge at a rate even as high as 50%, but let's suppose our theoretical form does, for the sake of argument. This levels the playing field again, or at least as long as the unblockable damage is from directed skills and spells. Unfortunately, it isn't always.

The final straw in this camel's back, IMO, is from area attacks. I don't believe even the mongoose (the dodgiest of dodgy forms AFAIK) dodges anything from area attacks. It also doesn't dodge progs (I distinctly remember Blitzenturt using the Thunderlance to put my mongoose down once upon a time) or, and this is where the PvE comes in play, breath attacks. If you are looking for a shifter form to tank in a dangerous area explore, you sure aren't going to go for a mongoose or lemur. That would be suicide for everyone involved. Porcupine, tortoise, dillo, and komodo would all be far superior choices, because at least if they get hit with a big breath attack that kills them, you know you were ####ed from the start. Where as even a modest breath attack can easily nuke a dodgy form. They simply have no defense for it.

I don't have any specific recommendation here, but this is something I've been pondering for a while and wanted to put into words before thinking about how I would try to balance shifter forms (formulaically) since if my premises here are flawed, there is little point in continuing.

The situation I outlined above is (I think) obviously in favor of the reduxy form, but the actual situation on the ground in CF is actually worse. Reduxy forms get thick hides, which provide dam avoidance for direct unblockable damage, further skewing in their favor. They also can have awesome offense (porcupine) or big regen (croc, komodo) to tip the scales in their favor even more.

The only "saving grace" I can think of is that ABS is somewhat more effective for dodgy forms than reduxy forms, in that they get more absolute redux out of it, i.e. 0 inherent + ABSS ~= 70% redux, for total of 70% gain. 50% inherent + ABSS ~= 85% redux for 35% gain, but I'm not sure that really works out in the long run.


*for the purposes of this, 50% dodge means will dodge 50% of all melee strikes, with no other factors considered.

Understand that the shifter form balance equation is a little more complicated than something like "50% DR is as good as dodging 50% of attacks".

I think the forms are good for different things. Regen in general is probably 'priced' too low given how well it combos with other forms. But just looking at soak vs. dodge, there are situations in which each is better. If you're dealing with area attacks, soak is clearly better as you point out. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to kill most defensive forms with, say, two mace specs timing cranials, whereas mongoose and sifaka lemur laugh at that. Even given theoretical matchups and almost any number of enemies I can't think of a way to reliably lag out a mongoose. (It also puts out the most average damage of the defensive forms, excepting porcupine which is king of the form weird cases.)

Also: left out of your calculus is a form like diamondback that's a dodge-regen form.

You say that but I swear, having both mongoose and komodo, komodo will do more damage (especially in PK) due to rake damage variation. Not even factoring in the joy of plaguing bites nerfing mob regen.

I think you guys could definitely boost lemur/mongoose base melee damage. Just like a 5-10% increase would be huge in making those forms more viable.

As it is, the only time you really want mongoose/lemur is when you are going anywhere where you are fighting multiple skill using mobs (places like Hell, Thar-Acacia, Dragon Tower ruins for revenants, etc). In solo-exploring situations AND in PK situations, mongoose/lemur are just the worst options other than armadillo (which is very useful for any group, moreso than lemur/mongoose).

>As it is, the only time you really want mongoose/lemur is when
>you are going anywhere where you are fighting multiple skill
>using mobs (places like Hell, Thar-Acacia, Dragon Tower ruins
>for revenants, etc). In solo-exploring situations AND in PK
>situations, mongoose/lemur are just the worst options other
>than armadillo (which is very useful for any group, moreso
>than lemur/mongoose).

Mongoose works 100% of the time ALL THE TIME. That's why "Mongoose is ####."

Dude even you use the bobcat a fair amount of the time when you are at hero.


Its good at things, those things can be used to win, don't expect it to play out like a dam redux form.

At least I can hide better.

>Understand that the shifter form balance equation is a little
>more complicated than something like "50% DR is as good as
>dodging 50% of attacks".

I do understand this, but am purposefully simplifying to start the conversation. I can go into how I think (especially on low tier forms) lag (usually in a non useful form) is way overpriced vs. stuff like forage and how moving concealed is mostly useless if it lags 2 rounds a room, but I've chosen to limit myself as I don't have enough information to assess how these are actually priced.

>I think the forms are good for different things. Regen in
>general is probably 'priced' too low given how well it combos
>with other forms.

Perhaps. It feels like most of the regen forms are about right in that they aren't noticeably better than the non-regen counterparts, except where low-level forms are concerned. On lower level forms, regen is almost always way better than non-regen because they don't have enough defense to tank in any real way without external healing, but I digress.

>But just looking at soak vs. dodge, there
>are situations in which each is better.

I disagree

> If you're dealing
>with area attacks, soak is clearly better as you point out.

I agree. In PvE, this is a big deal, as area attacks also tend to be the biggest damage.

>On the other hand, it's pretty easy to kill most defensive
>forms with, say, two mace specs timing cranials, whereas
>mongoose and sifaka lemur laugh at that.

Which major defense forms is this easy on?

Dillo even without ricochet skin will deflect enough to escape. Plus it has backdown to help retreat.

Crocodile I haven't had, but diku wiki says it has thick hide. That, plus regen and the inbuilt dam redux and I can't imagine non-RBW's are able to alternate lag enough to kill it before it can escape in the majority of cases.

Komodo Dragon I've had and fought, and while it *can* be permalagged, it is exceeding difficult for non-RBW to finish the job for reasons similar to Croc + it has sprint for GTFOing

Diamondback is very hard to keep still, and given the choice I'd take it over lemur/mongoose 100 times out of 100, but it is still crap in PvE situations.

Pachyderm same-ish as dillo, plus being giant size (I think) helps against most lag.

Porcupine is the only one I think can be reliably lagged, but obviously you aren't likely to manage that with two cranial spammers in most cases...

On the other hand, with lemur and mongoose (and to a lesser extent diamondback) you only have to get a little lucky and get one or two skills/spells through dodge to wreck them, where as in most non-RBW cases vs. soak forms you have to get systematically lucky over the course of consecutive skills.

>Even given
>theoretical matchups and almost any number of enemies I can't
>think of a way to reliably lag out a mongoose.

With a large group of enemies, you don't have to reliably lag a mongoose. Just hit it with damage and it will go away soon enough. Especially if you have some area damage to throw at it.

> (It also puts
>out the most average damage of the defensive forms, excepting
>porcupine which is king of the form weird cases.)

I'm not saying you are wrong, exactly, but even if the damage mongoose puts out is the highest from defensive forms (I'm not convinced, but I don't know as I've rolled every mongoose I've had since days long past) the damage is in no way dangerous. Roll on croc, Trample on pachy, porc quills, Komodo rake + disease bite, and even diamondback poison are all more dangerous to an enemy than a few strikes of predictable damage per round.

>Also: left out of your calculus is a form like diamondback
>that's a dodge-regen form.

Not exactly. I focused on top-tier defense as it has some of the clearest examples of what I mean. I could have just as easily picked third tier water and compared the sea snake (which is crazy good) or swordfish with the blue-ringed octopus* (I've never found a form less useful than this one). Top tier water has some of the same issues in that if you want to explore or learn underwater, the dodgy forms are ok (except manta from my experience), but the soak forms are flat better and they also tend to be amphibious.

Part of the issue is that I feel like the formula for pricing form abilities seems to be built to price top tier forms, and in that regard it is fairly close, but that lower level forms are not nearly as well priced and some of their relative strengths are widely different. I focused on dodge vs. soak as a starting point before attempting to move on.

(*) I'm not sure I can properly put into words my absolute hatred of this form. Can't tank. Does terrible damage. The "utility" it has is totally wasted on a form that does 8 mauls a round worth of attacks that are easily parried because the spirits riposte you to death, etc. etc.

This is why I didn't respond to you in the first place. I know you weren't going to like my answer.

Seriously though, I'm fairly certain Zulg put something in to track shifters swapping out forms, and I'd bet mongoose lemur are at the very top of the roll the bones/spin the wheel list of swapped out forms.

One thing I will say is that I don't have all the data. You do, or can get it. Prove to me I'm wrong with evidence and I'll accept it.

>Seriously though, I'm fairly certain Zulg put something in to
>track shifters swapping out forms, and I'd bet mongoose lemur
>are at the very top of the roll the bones/spin the wheel list
>of swapped out forms.
>
>One thing I will say is that I don't have all the data. You
>do, or can get it. Prove to me I'm wrong with evidence and
>I'll accept it.

People pretty much only want regen forms for defense. Defense forms also lend themselves far more to a players preferred style. Do I think mongoose and lemur could use some more utility, probably.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defense                    1   5    10   15   20   25   30   35   40   45
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
armadillo                : **************                                 : 14
crocodile                : *                                              : 1
diamondback rattlesnake  : **                                             : 2
komodo dragon            : *                                              : 1
mongoose                 : **************                                 : 14
pachyderm                : *************                                  : 13
porcupine                : **********                                     : 10
sifaka lemur             : ********                                       : 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Is that the number of times people have rolled/spun on a particular form? Is there anything tracking what % of the time that is (i.e. if there are 14 dillo's that rolled, is that out of 28 chars that got it (50% of the time) or 15 chars that got it (93% of the time)? I could assume totally equal distribution of forms, but I doubt that is actually the case.

Is there any tracking of how much a character uses a specific form? Shifter is probably one of the most rolled and deleted classes (but I'm not going to waste my Santa Zulg suggesting forms be choosable, I know where that is getting filed), but I'd be interested in seeing some sort of breakdown of form use by hour per character. If people are getting mongoose, using it for 20 RL hours and then deleting (on average) that says something about the form, especially if dillo's generally go for 50 hours or something.

It seems obvious from the chart that people who get regen forms don't reroll, but then from a pure PvE perspective they are vastly superior to the other forms in a lot of cases. Specifically any time the NPC you are fighting can't outdamage your regen, which is going to be a significant percentage of all NPCs.

One final note on "added utility" is that in a lot of cases I've seen, (mostly on lower level forms), the added utility is not actually an add at all. Being able to camo seems really highly "priced" but is not actually all that useful. The gist of what I think I'm trying to say here is that utility only matters if it is useful either all the time, or a complete game changer in a narrow niche. As an example, Orcs get quite a few "utility" skills that are very niche in use, but really can make an overwhelming change in a fight when they are useful. Desecration being a prime example.

>Is that the number of times people have rolled/spun on a
>particular form?

Yes

>Is there anything tracking what % of the
>time that is (i.e. if there are 14 dillo's that rolled, is
>that out of 28 chars that got it (50% of the time) or 15 chars
>that got it (93% of the time)?

No

>Is there any tracking of how much a character uses a specific
>form?

No

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I believe your conclusion, people want regen for defense, is supported by your chart. And my supposition that soak form is better than dodge form is not lended any support. That is not to say it isn't true. There just isn't enough data from that chart to draw a conclusion one way or the other, IMHO.

From personal experience, I've rerolled both mongoose (for lemur, which was ####) and dillo in the past because they didn't fit what I was trying to do (probably solo exploring) with that specific character. Given the same options again, I would probably keep dillo on any cabaled character and still re-roll mongoose.

nt

For any cabaled character and for any group exploration, I can't think of a much better form. Porcupine is arguably better in some scenarios, but you still need something for rescuing (like tortoise) or something similar.

nt

n/t

When hide deflection was put into the game you added skill avoidance to soak forms without a corresponding nerfing of the soakability. So now soak forms pretty much laugh at the 2 cranial situation (they might deflect at a lower rate the goose dodges but given how many rounds it takes to kill them i am not scared of that permalag situation unless the enemies do it really late in a fight)

I mean we tuned up the rhino, gorilla, and vulture and none of them needed it (people were still holding prejudices the foundation if which had already been resolved before the beef) I would like to see some utility added to lemur/mongoose. Something that actually makes them different forms in a meaningful way or just nuke one if them.

Lemur ideas
-pounce
-slippery escaper(for moves that rely on grabbing/trapping/pinning down an extra chance on top of skill dodge to avoid, think like a hand spec rolling out if throw)
-sneak

Mongoose ideas
-mesmerize: random hypontize affects on enemies when using distract
-snake eater: big dam boost against reptiles




>Understand that the shifter form balance equation is a little
>more complicated than something like "50% DR is as good as
>dodging 50% of attacks".
>
>I think the forms are good for different things. Regen in
>general is probably 'priced' too low given how well it combos
>with other forms. But just looking at soak vs. dodge, there
>are situations in which each is better. If you're dealing
>with area attacks, soak is clearly better as you point out.
>On the other hand, it's pretty easy to kill most defensive
>forms with, say, two mace specs timing cranials, whereas
>mongoose and sifaka lemur laugh at that. Even given
>theoretical matchups and almost any number of enemies I can't
>think of a way to reliably lag out a mongoose. (It also puts
>out the most average damage of the defensive forms, excepting
>porcupine which is king of the form weird cases.)
>
>Also: left out of your calculus is a form like diamondback
>that's a dodge-regen form.
>
>

Or do I need to troll in the future to generate comments instead of trying to open a civil discussion?

I think the problem is more that mongoose/lemur just don't stack up to the other forms for the purposes of both PvE, PvP.

Major Defensive Forms Strengths:

Croc (Regen, Significant Dam Reduction, Scaly Hide, Amphibious, Tough to Blind)
Komodo (Regen, Significant Dam Reduction, Scaly Hide/Thick Hide, CarrionFeed, Rake, Bite that plagues, can swim! but not amphibious (I checked this, not sure if intended))
Porc (Major Dam Reduction, can hit DEVASTATES with quills, area attack, most offensive form of the defensive forms most of the time)
Armadillo (Absurd Dam Reduction, can intercept, sucks if you are a solo player but man is it pimp if you have allies)
Diamondback (Major Dodging, Evasion, Regeneration, Poison, some camo?)
Pachyderm (Significant Dam Reduction (better than croc/komodo but less than armadillo), Toss, Trample, Gore, Thick Hide)
Lemur (Superior Dodge, Evasion, intercept, um...jump?, 1-round bite?, does less damage than Pachyderm)
Mongoose (Superior Dodge, Evasion, ummm intercept?, 1-round bite?, does less damage than Komodo (when you factor in rake hitting for MUTILATE/MUTILATE or better every 2 rounds))

See the two that stand out?

Now, just for ####s and giggles, let's throw two utility forms that are dodgy against the Mongoose/Lemur

Cheetah (Major Dodge, Evasion, Pounce, Sprint, Vanish in Plains, hits for 4-6 MASSACRES A ROUND, 1-round lag bite that can cause bleeding, Tendonslash)
Wildcat (Major Dodge, Evasion, Hide, Camo, Sneak in Forests, 1-round lag bite that can cause bleeding, Pounce in Forests)

I mean, I'd rather have Wildcat/Cheetah for defensive purposes (not to mention the Cobra) than Mongoose/Lemur.


My suggestions are as follows:

1) Increase hit/dam of mongoose/lemur. Make them the most offensive defensive forms (other than the porc quills on dummies wielding swords and such). It makes sense actually that a squirrely little lemur would be bitting the #### out of you if you cornered him.

2) Edges for dodgy shifter forms. Maybe defense only? FWIW It isn't thick hide that makes dam redux-y forms great, it's that ####ing edge ricochet skin which increases chances of deflection from like 20% to 60%

3) Give both a utility skill (not sure if you have already done this, haven't had either form in a couple years). Mongoose you could give Resist Poison/Burrow. Lemur maybe Camo and Forage?

Good night, and good luck.

>See the two that stand out?
>
>Now, just for ####s and giggles, let's throw two utility forms
>that are dodgy against the Mongoose/Lemur
>
>Cheetah (Major Dodge, Evasion, Pounce, Sprint, Vanish in
>Plains, hits for 4-6 MASSACRES A ROUND, 1-round lag bite that
>can cause bleeding, Tendonslash)
>Wildcat (Major Dodge, Evasion, Hide, Camo, Sneak in Forests,
>1-round lag bite that can cause bleeding, Pounce in Forests)
>
>I mean, I'd rather have Wildcat/Cheetah for defensive purposes
> not to mention the Cobra) than Mongoose/Lemur.

I agree with most of what you've written, but want to comment on the wildcat, which I've had recently. It does dodge and evade, but not enough to say, tank storm giants, which the hare can(could) with recovery of the snake the last time I had it. It does get Hide, and Camo, and autocreep in forests. However, they autocreep comes with a 2 round lag, which makes it somewhat less than useful, IMHO. It has one round bite, but bleeding with be only with an edge, and it also has Swipe, which I find of dubious utility.

I agree that Wildcat is still probably better as mongoose lemur for a defensive form, but in either case they require ABS at a level most dam reduxy forms do not.

I think they have more to complain about.