I kinda think it's starting to get out of control. I'd love to hear other people's opinion about this.

It's going to become an untenable situation soon. Eventually every character is going to need rewards to survive, which will continue the culture of entitlement, which will force the IMMs to give out more rewards.

I gotta believe Zulg, at least, knows this is getting bad.

Edited to add: If you guys hit the switch and got rid of role contests, ABS, and a whole slew of other imbalanced things, I'd totally donate 500$ to CF.

I generally wouldn't post a response to something like this, but what the hell I'll throw it out there. I've never really gotten any type of reward, but thats because Im terrible at figuring out whats worthy of being rewarded, something I've frequently asked for aid with, but seems nobody has the time to help a RP Artard.

Even though I generally rarely cabal, because i'm terrible at PK and generally done recieve much attention, sometime I rarely get more than 300 immxp for a role entry, which kinds of erks me because when I look at PBF files their roles are not anymore quality than some of my own yet they get 1250 immxp for the first entry or something stupid. Thats probably a bit of an exageration. Yet, even through never recieving any attention, stacking 20 edges from PK, any of that nonsense that most people, including me so long to experience, but dont. I still always crawl back, just let the cards fall where their thrown and let it be. The immortals have enough on their plates without having to worry about the newest bitch from the playbase.

Just gotta let some of this stuff go folks. Lets have some fun with it. If their too beast theres no law saying to cannot gank em with five friends!

YES IT IS I! THE LORD OF EXCESSIVE COMMA USAGE!

They are about the whats,where,why,whens, and hows of your character. Meaning who he is, what he does, Why he does it, How does he do it, and When does he do it. And seperates him by showing what he won't do, why he won't do it, why he doesn't do it this way versus doing it another way, and why he doesn't do something at/or during a certain time or a certain place.

That might help you get more from your roles. I get 1500 when I do this but I don't do it often because I'm lazy I just do a half assed role that gets me 1000. (I'd rather play the game and a 1k role generally shows who my character is enough for me to play enjoyably).

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

>Even though I generally rarely cabal, because i'm terrible at
>PK and generally done recieve much attention, sometime I
>rarely get more than 300 immxp for a role entry, which kinds
>of erks me because when I look at PBF files their roles are
>not anymore quality than some of my own yet they get 1250
>immxp for the first entry or something stupid. Thats probably
>a bit of an exageration.

Not to detract from the intent of your post, which I agree with, I thought I'd point out something to clear up some of the weird claims about role xp I've seen. It's extremely unlikely you've gotten 300 xp, or someone has gotten 1250, or other claims I've seen (150, 600.)

When roles are rated, they get 0, 500, 1000, 1500, or 2000xp based on the first chunk of role chapters that are read and rated. After that, the next time you have new chapters that are reviewed and rewarded, you will get 0, 400, 800, or 1200xp for those chapters.

For the past several years, this is the way it has been and it's very unlikely anyone reading your role would both be able to and willing to go to the trouble to give you a different amount of experience.

Just so it's out there...

I'd pay for CF rewards

... as long as no one else could.

Big money. Straight to a coder. No one needs to know.

I got paypal.

Any takers? No?

Hello?

This describes the gripe about who gets what shapeshifter forms, who gets what sleek wand locations, who gets what rolecontest awards, and in this thread, who even gets their questions answered on the forums.

To quote George Carlin, "####, piss, ####, cunt, cocksucker, ####er, and ####."

It's hard to have a meaningful conversation when everyone puts on their lids and digs into their entrenched positions and start lobbing loaded words at each other. Around here, even suggesting words like "whiner" and "conspiracy" shut down logical thought as effectively as invoking Hitler's name in a public policy debate.

TMNS highlighted a concern he had, but instead of creating a firestorm on the forums he should have engaged the imps in a more private discussion. Maybe on AIM, if he is in their inner circle (CONSPIRACY! FAVORITISM! OBAMACARE-LOVING COMMUNISTS! MUHAHAHA!) or at the very least in a series of emails so we don't have the invective injected to defend or inflame the egos of both sides in this debate.

Please lock the thread and converse when cooler minds govern a more private conversation where both sides to this are represented.

And bring a statbook. We have almost as many number crunchers around here as we do trolls.

And I agree with TMNS on what he was trying to say. Forums suck for having a debate.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

I don't know much about current play obviously, but I read logs and the fora and this thread in particular and I think the real problem is how the rewards come, not the rewards themselves. For the most part I think this whining about powerful shifter forms is ridiculous, many of you johnny-come-lately's weren't around but for those of us that had the pleasure of fighting the wolverine, the displacer beast, the yeti (which was comparatively weak) the bulette, and some of the other early shifter quest forms, these new guys seem nice but in no way over powered.

No, my point would be to give them (and other more powerful rewards) for actual roleplay, and not for role contests. As I read these battlefield threads and pbfs it strikes me that people who happen to be better and more creative fiction writers end up getting rewarded, but people who perhaps had those oft-spoken of "long lived chars" and "well rp'd chars" and so forth do not.

I think the idea and implementation of the role command all those years ago were good. But I think it has evolved poorly. It has attained an unwarranted level of importance and focus, to the point where it appears to me to be eclipsing the actual roleplay and behavior of the characters. Perhaps I am mistaken and it is my mistake arising out of knowing only from what can be seen here, dios, and the few emails/pm's I receive from players. But that is indeed how it appears, and I think it should be addressed, and changed. The focus should be on the actual roleplay, the day to day/week to week/and for long lived chars month to month behavior. As it is, that focus is now on the roles that are read only by one or two immortals, never ever read by a mortal (while the char is active) and has absolutely zero bearing on whether the char in fact roleplays that role, or just happens to be terrific fantasy writer.

Having identified this problem (as it appears to me, again), I offer the solution to tone down role contest rewards - do not make them too minor, they should be encouraged, but the guiding principle should be a middle level reward - and leave the truly powerful rewards for players that in fact roleplayed their roles, whatever they may be.

nt

nt

nt

nt

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

n/t

There have been periods during which, overall, we've been very bad as a staff about giving out rewards to cool characters. At those times, especially, I've been a big proponent of higher-end role contest rewards, since, I would rather there be some avenue to get unusual or cool stuff as a player than none at all, and at times that's been the choice before me as an administrator.

(Obviously, I understand that some people would be happier with no one having any rewards at all in such a case. I just don't agree.)

It's just, logistically, much easier to convince an immortal who may not have a huge amount of time to dedicate to the game at that particular moment to commit to judging one role contest for the year than it is to get them to commit (and follow through) with the huge investment of time and effort it takes to do rewards for in-play things well.

But, that being said, currently, I think we're doing much better in terms of rewarding players for in-play things.

I don't disagree with the idea that RC rewards could be scaled down if there are realistically other avenues for cool characters to get fun stuff. Zulg and I have a sort of oft-neglected long-term project underway to better gauge how powerful rewards are and somewhat revamp the process of awarding them, and when/if that's complete it would probably be easy to sell me on setting more of a mid-tier bar cap in terms of power of RC prizes.

>Zulg and I have a sort of oft-neglected long-term project underway to better gauge how powerful rewards are and somewhat revamp the process of awarding them, and when/if that's complete it would probably be easy to sell me on setting more of a mid-tier bar cap in terms of power of RC prizes.<

Why the #### didn't you say that in your other responses to me? ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH.

Instead I was led to believe you were pissed off at me (by your tone) for even bringing up the subject. FFS.

I didn't think of it!

Plus, I felt like you were talking about kneecapping rewards in general and I'm only talking about maybe scaling them down in one specific area.

BEEP BOOP?! D:

...but mostly focusing on making sure powerful rewards go to dudes who are like 400 hrs old and have been beating ass.

The idea behind automating how this "hypothetical" character would get rewards was an idea to keep claims of favoritism down.

But yeah. Role Contest rewards and how powerful they were for really young characters were my biggest beef (as someone who has won there fair share of them).

Boart better be a cool ass ####er to make me have to think of someone other than Dulmisa or Llorenthos when executioner's grace is discussed.

There's an interesting story there is really all I can say.

Because you will be getting 5$ of my cold, hard, dead, job-creating dollars when that person in question dies!

Damn it all

If the PBF doesn't fill it in to your satisfaction I can add what I know at that point (although I'm in no way involved at all).

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

nt

nt

Kinda wish you could give more details. But I understand that it is likely far off (or a horrible pain to code) or both.
Thats the curious side of me though. I would totally learn C to help you code it. XD

nt

Bryan

So I obviously don't hate the game or the immortals.

And only one of them was my character!

There will always be players who are envious of other players.
There will always be players who focus more on others than worrying about themselves.
There will always be players who speculate on when and why rewards are given when they don't have access to all of the information.
There will always be players who feel entitled to know all of the information behind every immortal decision.

And lastly,

There will always be players who act in similar manners throughout all of their characters that appeal to certain imms.

Certain character traits appeal to me. If a player consistently exhibits those traits in every one of their characters, I have no control over that. I just like what I see. Maybe you can attach forum handles to characters, but I sure as hell can't. When I see something I like in a character, I will reward accordingly.

I can't speak for the rest of the staff, but it would be a complete waste of my time to try and please every player. I'm not asking for sycophancy (is that a word?), but the constant bitching by certain members of the playerbase really makes me question my time investment.

..but because I like you, I'll respond to this.

Here's the situation. In an organization, you seek to create and sustain a competitive advantage. You would normally do this by creating a total quality environment in which standards are riguorously enforced. You would also try to constantly tweak the system that enforces this advantage/adherance to standards to deal with changing dynamics in your employee base (IMMs) and customers (players).

What I am trying to propose is to create a system whereby you cut down on a number of "defects" and "complaints". By automating the role contest and how rewards are given, you completely take any perception of bias away from the customers, which allow the employee base to focus on what they need to be doing from an organizational stand-point. Of course there would still be some players who feel slighted, but these would be easily explainable and completely understandable reasons (I couldn't get empowered for 50 hrs and two weeks - Well, your IMM was on vacation).

That system would do wonders to wipe out the sense of entitlement that the playerbase has currently. If you made it so each player knew the requirements, knew they had just as good of a chance as the next guy to meet those requirements, well then, I'd imagine you'd have a lot of knowledgable happy customers/players.

To claim that you (as Immortals) don't need to worry about this problem because "there will always be complaints" is amazingly short-sighted. It's almost as if you guys have given up trying to create the best possible product for the marketplace. If that is true, then no offense, let me (and several others) be an IMM and ####ing quit. Because if you aren't doing your job as an administrator, go back to being a player and let someone else who wants to do it do it. I don't understand why a lot of very intelligent Immortals don't grasp this. If you worked at Microsoft and you went to one of your employees and were like "Hey, joe employee, I noticed you haven't responded to some of my customer complaints" and he said "Yeah, well, you can't please everyone all the time" I'd ####ing fire him (well, actually, I'd talk to him first and explain why that IS important...if he did it again though he'd be ####-canned).

I just cannot believe that none of you immortals see that the attitude of "I can't possibly please every player" is a problem. I never said that you could, mind you, but that should ALWAYS be your goal. You should always seek to please as many people as you can possibly can, because they are your customers. Without customers, your organization would not exist. I'm proposing a dialogue and a system that would make it EASIER to please players and yet some of you don't grasp that. It's frustrating to me as an emerging business person to see that type of attitude.

>..but because I like you, I'll respond to this.
>
>Here's the situation. In an organization, you seek to create
>and sustain a competitive advantage. You would normally do
>this by creating a total quality environment in which
>standards are riguorously enforced. You would also try to
>constantly tweak the system that enforces this
>advantage/adherance to standards to deal with changing
>dynamics in your employee base (IMMs) and customers
> players).

-Great, enforce rigorous standards in creative writing and dynamic, novel situations (roleplay in game). Seems like a smart plan.

>
>What I am trying to propose is to create a system whereby you
>cut down on a number of "defects" and "complaints". By
>automating the role contest and how rewards are given, you
>completely take any perception of bias away from the
>customers, which allow the employee base to focus on what they
>need to be doing from an organizational stand-point. Of course
>there would still be some players who feel slighted, but these
>would be easily explainable and completely understandable
>reasons (I couldn't get empowered for 50 hrs and two weeks -
>Well, your IMM was on vacation).

-Automation is retarded for creative writing contests, sorry. All that needs to be done regarding role contests is make it be established 150-200+ hour characters only.

>
>That system would do wonders to wipe out the sense of
>entitlement that the playerbase has currently. If you made it
>so each player knew the requirements, knew they had just as
>good of a chance as the next guy to meet those requirements,
>well then, I'd imagine you'd have a lot of knowledgable happy
>customers/players.

-Sorry, not everyone is going to have equal chance of winning a role contest. Some people are not good at creative writing, or able to come up with interesting character ideas. I think we should change the way football is played so that everyone knows the requirements and has a good a chance as the next guy to be drafted into the NFL. Does that make sense to you?

>To claim that you (as Immortals) don't need to worry about
>this problem because "there will always be complaints" is
>amazingly short-sighted. It's almost as if you guys have
>given up trying to create the best possible product for the
>marketplace. If that is true, then no offense, let me (and
>several others) be an IMM and ####ing quit. Because if you
>aren't doing your job as an administrator, go back to being a
>player and let someone else who wants to do it do it. I don't
>understand why a lot of very intelligent Immortals don't grasp
>this. If you worked at Microsoft and you went to one of your
>employees and were like "Hey, joe employee, I noticed you
>haven't responded to some of my customer complaints" and he
>said "Yeah, well, you can't please everyone all the time" I'd
>####ing fire him (well, actually, I'd talk to him first and
>explain why that IS important...if he did it again though he'd
>be ####-canned).

-Sorry, the imms (employee in your analogy) don't answer to the players (the boss in your analogy). Kinda kills that, doesn't it? This entire passage is incoherent due to your misconceptions about the player-immortal relationship, as well as a fundamental misunderstanding of how entitled you are to anything from volunteers.

>
>I just cannot believe that none of you immortals see that the
>attitude of "I can't possibly please every player" is a
>problem. I never said that you could, mind you, but that
>should ALWAYS be your goal. You should always seek to please
>as many people as you can possibly can, because they are your
>customers. Without customers, your organization would not
>exist. I'm proposing a dialogue and a system that would make
>it EASIER to please players and yet some of you don't grasp
>that. It's frustrating to me as an emerging business person
>to see that type of attitude.

-The goal should NEVER be to please everyone. If you want mass appeal, go play a carnival style mmorpg, they'll be glad to hear your complaints.

>-Great, enforce rigorous standards in creative writing and dynamic, novel situations (roleplay in game). Seems like a smart plan.<

Huh? IMMs would still judge role contests by reading the roles and determining who they thought was best. It's only the rewards that would be automated. Duh?

>-Automation is retarded for creative writing contests, sorry. All that needs to be done regarding role contests is make it be established 150-200+ hour characters only.<

Creative writing contests are retarded period (unless you're in 8th grade English). But that's neither here nor there. I still don't see where you made the leap from rewards = automated to the entire contest = automated.

>-Sorry, not everyone is going to have equal chance of winning a role contest. Some people are not good at creative writing, or able to come up with interesting character ideas. I think we should change the way football is played so that everyone knows the requirements and has a good a chance as the next guy to be drafted into the NFL. Does that make sense to you?<

Again, you don't have to enter a role contest. Unsure of why you're basing your entire counter-point on this, since I'm not arguing that point singularly. I am trying to propose a system whereby people who DON'T like creative writing don't feel like they are getting pissed on because the people that do are getting hooked the #### up. And football is that way mostly, bub. All the players have pro days and the combine, and if they don't get those, they can always go to training camp. It's why dude's like Victor Cruz (undrafted) are superstars now. Don't bring sports into this because I will crush you like a grape

>Sorry, the imms (employee in your analogy) don't answer to the players (the boss in your analogy). Kinda kills that, doesn't it? This entire passage is incoherent due to your misconceptions about the player-immortal relationship, as well as a fundamental misunderstanding of how entitled you are to anything from volunteers.<

You totally mis-read that argument (but it's fine...I'll explain it again). The problem is the attitude of "We can't please all the people all the time" and just leaving it at that. Again, if I was an employee and noticed a hundred customer complaints (rants on Dio's, etc) I would go to my employee (Daevryn or Rayihn for the purpose of this argument) and ask how they are resolving the issue. If they told me "You can't please all the people all the time" I'd fire them. However, if they were like "Well, I talked to some of them and explained that the customer who received what you didn't also sent in a voucher and responded to several survey's...I tried explaining this to the customers but some of them just wouldn't listen" I would totally accept that answer and move on. A great example of this was Baer's post on what she looks for in a follower. Not her fault that someone finally rolled a shifter follower. However, it is the Admin's fault for allowing that situation to escalate (as it currently is).
PS You're taking the "I would" to literally mean me. But it's not supposed to mean that (I understand though that I didn't elaborate that well enough). The I (if CF were a for-profit) would be Jullias.

>The goal should NEVER be to please everyone. If you want mass appeal, go play a carnival style mmorpg, they'll be glad to hear your complaints.<

The goal is to please as many people as you possibly can. If you don't understand that then you're not a business person and don't know #### about business. Simple as that. And like it or not, there are a lot of unhappy customers at the moment (at least, vocally).

>The goal is to please as many people as you possibly can. If
>you don't understand that then you're not a business person
>and don't know #### about business. Simple as that. And like
>it or not, there are a lot of unhappy customers at the moment
> at least, vocally).


I can't be bothered, because you argue much like a male rights activist, but this is pretty much a sticking point. Theres niche appeal (guess what, this is what CF is), and there's carnival style. I don't approve of moving away from niche appeal (make some people happy specifically because you don't appeal broadly) to carnival (make as many people happy as you can).

CF isn't trying to make money off customer subscrips, which is where you seem to be missing the point.

>..but because I like you, I'll respond to this.

Thanks.

>Here's the situation. In an organization, you seek to create
>and sustain a competitive advantage. You would normally do
>this by creating a total quality environment in which
>standards are riguorously enforced. You would also try to
>constantly tweak the system that enforces this
>advantage/adherance to standards to deal with changing
>dynamics in your employee base (IMMs) and customers
> players).


This is already more thought than I care to put into my immortal logins.

>What I am trying to propose is to create a system whereby you
>cut down on a number of "defects" and "complaints". By
>automating the role contest and how rewards are given, you
>completely take any perception of bias away from the
>customers, which allow the employee base to focus on what they
>need to be doing from an organizational stand-point. Of course
>there would still be some players who feel slighted, but these
>would be easily explainable and completely understandable
>reasons (I couldn't get empowered for 50 hrs and two weeks -
>Well, your IMM was on vacation).

See my above post: there will always be players who feel slighted. I don't think anything the imms do will minimize the number of "defects" and "complaints," as you put them. Some players just like being negative.

>That system would do wonders to wipe out the sense of
>entitlement that the playerbase has currently. If you made it
>so each player knew the requirements, knew they had just as
>good of a chance as the next guy to meet those requirements,
>well then, I'd imagine you'd have a lot of knowledgable happy
>customers/players.

If you are shooting for a system that's completely mechanized, then sure. As for me, I'll hit 0 to talk to the operator rather than pushing buttons in an automated system.

>To claim that you (as Immortals) don't need to worry about
>this problem because "there will always be complaints" is
>amazingly short-sighted. It's almost as if you guys have
>given up trying to create the best possible product for the
>marketplace. If that is true, then no offense, let me (and
>several others) be an IMM and ####ing quit. Because if you
>aren't doing your job as an administrator, go back to being a
>player and let someone else who wants to do it do it. I don't
>understand why a lot of very intelligent Immortals don't grasp
>this. If you worked at Microsoft and you went to one of your
>employees and were like "Hey, joe employee, I noticed you
>haven't responded to some of my customer complaints" and he
>said "Yeah, well, you can't please everyone all the time" I'd
>####ing fire him (well, actually, I'd talk to him first and
>explain why that IS important...if he did it again though he'd
>be ####-canned).

You are welcome to be an imm. Despite what you may think (see my above post re: information), all immortal applications are considered based on current and past characters, interviews and writing samples. All immortal applications are then voted on by the immstaff.

I have a job where I have to deal with both administrators and customer complaints. There's paperwork up the ass. I _do_ have to try and please everyone. It's an awful feeling to sacrifice your personal ethics and standards to make everyone happy. Why would I want my hobby to be like my job?

>I just cannot believe that none of you immortals see that the
>attitude of "I can't possibly please every player" is a
>problem. I never said that you could, mind you, but that
>should ALWAYS be your goal. You should always seek to please
>as many people as you can possibly can, because they are your
>customers. Without customers, your organization would not
>exist. I'm proposing a dialogue and a system that would make
>it EASIER to please players and yet some of you don't grasp
>that. It's frustrating to me as an emerging business person
>to see that type of attitude.

I have no idea what you want. What do you want me as an immortal to do for you? Empower you? Tattoo you? Give you quest skills?

I'm asking for a solid, yet not lengthy role. I'm asking for consistent roleplay. I'm asking for a commitment to a character because it's fun to play _that character_ regardless of what ####ty situation might come up.

You say that this organization won't exist without customers. It won't exist without administrators, either. The personal attacks and baseless accusations thrown around by a very vocal part of the "customers" make it a lot less fun to show up for "work."

Walking Dead is on. I'm off.

>I'm asking for a solid, yet not lengthy role. I'm asking for consistent roleplay. I'm asking for a commitment to a character because it's fun to play _that character_ regardless of what ####ty situation might come up.<

I want this too! I mean, this is what I am trying to do with this post, but people are missing the point

I don't want this
>I have no idea what you want. What do you want me as an immortal to do for you? Empower you? Tattoo you? Give you quest skills?<

No! I want Immortals (if I follow you) to interact. Whether it be through mobs, the immortal character, or forcing you to interact with other characters. I TOTALLY don't want quest skills given. I feel like the system I propose would take away a lot of negative aspects of player/immortal interaction and would bring the system back to making it more fun for everyone.

>If you are shooting for a system that's completely mechanized, then sure. As for me, I'll hit 0 to talk to the operator rather than pushing buttons in an automated system.<

Only the system for how rewards are decided on would be automated. The Immortals would still be choosing who would get these rewards (by imm comments/login times/hrs played/strength of role/time in cabal/pk stats/et cetera - the criteria that I proposed was meant to be a starting point not set in stone) only because the rewards would be automated and lesser in power, negative people wouldn't have a leg to stand on when they bitched about it. I mean, I'm sure at least one person might bitch that my 300 hr Storm Warrior got the ardor quest spell and the swath of destruction edge, but yeah...

>I have a job where I have to deal with both administrators and customer complaints. There's paperwork up the ass. I _do_ have to try and please everyone. It's an awful feeling to sacrifice your personal ethics and standards to make everyone happy. Why would I want my hobby to be like my job?<

Well then, how about turning this more into a hobby again? If you automated the reward system, then you wouldn't have to deal with posts like this, you wouldn't have to deal with large amounts of bitching/complaints, and you wouldn't have to sacrifice your personal standards. ####, you could even add contingencies so for a situation where someone did something completely off-RP you could note it and then when the criteria of hours played hit, you could have a response auto-sent to the player in the form of 'A great and powerful voice rumbling from the sky says "If only you hadn't full-looted that Squire and claimed someone else did it" as you feel yourself almost learn the intricate words of the ironskin spell.

My goal with this whole post was to make things easier on Immortals and make it so that the playerbase wouldn't be able to have this sense of entitlement that leads to poisonous attitudes. My goal is to erase the perception that there are favorites who are unfairly rewarded. I understand that no one but me has the time to read every post in this thread, but I hope that you at least understand that.

I'm not convinced that an automatic system will do the job of a rewarding immortal better.

IMMs would still decide via snoop, immortal comments, et cetera who should get the rewards.

The key part of this idea is that NONE of the rewards would be something that would completely change gameplay. Such as the "game-changing" rewards.

Again, my idea is really only the starting point. I never propose that the system I proposed would be THE system.

>There will always be players who act in similar manners
>throughout all of their characters that appeal to certain
>imms.

You nailed the leading cause of Imm favouritism pretty nicely. Same people get rewarded over and over again due to this reason. It is not something that is going to change, but what you can do is to select how big rewards you are giving out to them. If the rewards are powerful, then you have higher incentive to play the same character or follow the same Imm again in hopes of powerful rewards. With powerful rewards, it will be more difficult for other people to complete with these rewarded people than what it would be otherwise. It is primarily a matter of where do you want to draw the line with the power you give out as rewards.

I'm not one who ever gets big rewards, I don't tend to be ignored
either. The idea of what sort of limit should be on rewards (if any)
I'll leave alone. I mean to talk about favorites. I have a favorite
ice cream. Should I now go out an eat vanilla because I am biased for
blue bell dutch chocolate.. Hrm now I'm hungry. Where was I?

You like what you like. They like what they like. I know certain
personalities I just can't do (I try now and again and fail)
So if I know a deity I intend to follow likes a personality that
I know I can play why would I NOT choose to do that? Why should
they decide to not like the behavior? I CANNOT do a bold take
charge leader guy. I cannot do the cold arrogant bastard. So you
will rarely see me make the attempt to follow a god who digs that
sort of thing. I'm more along the "OMG that dude just got steamrolled
6 times and is picking a fight again with the same gang. WTF?!?!
You go dumbass! Here's your lastname." kinda guy. Okay that is a
little exaggerated... maybe not too much though. So anyway, the
people who like that sort of guy tend to like me. If I'm not
following a deity they tend to pick me out for something because of
how I act. I'm not looking for it most times. (I did try that once)

Maybe I can break it down for people in an easy way. You don't get
anything but grief? Well no one likes a douche.. don't be a douche.
People will like you more, imms and players alike. Maybe even IRL.

You are operating under the false assumption that I know who is behind what character. Not only do I not have that ability, but I've absolutely no interest in connecting characters to players.

He never said you did it purposefully. Just to clairify.

The process of recognition isn't required. Your favourites just know what strings to pull for their rewards. That's what makes them favourites, playing in a way you like them to play and getting rewarded in the process. The result will be these same guys getting rewarded over and over again. You don't have to conciously play favourites for the effect to happen. Unless your preferences happen to strongly favour originality of the concept (which can happen only so long until concepts are used up), it may happen that you're rewarding variation of the same role over and over again, possibly played by same guy.

Thank you; I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were trying to say.

When I think of favoritism, I think of consciously rewarding the same players over and over because of who they are. I think we disagree on our definition.

My religion is pretty straightforward, so it's rather easy to "pull my strings," IMHO. In no particular order:

Be competent at PK; you don't have to be a monster.
Roleplay your character; act like I am always standing over your shoulder.
Don't be a douche to your cabalmates.
Don't be a douche to your enemies; Yes, you can be evil without being a ####head.
Don't act like you are entitled to something more than you are getting; maybe you are, but an IC god is not going to see it that way, in any case.

There are some more, but that's a good start for an Akresius follower. If I consistently see the behavior outlined above, rewards may be forthcoming whether it's your 20th Akresius follower or your first.

I just don't play as much because of it. It's been like this for about 12 years. It's nothing new. The imms have ALWAYS had favorites, and they have their hated ones. Like me, I've had countless worthy characters over the years and the ONLY rewards I've EVER gotten was vitality quest rewards, a cabal edge and 2k imm xp (as Grecken and it was VERY much appreciated), and I won a role contest in which I was given a boatload of thief points. All of my tattoos came from pre-2001 and the system isn't comparable to today. Trewyn got his specs taken away as his reward for good rp. It took them two weeks to prepare a quest for me to get my specs back and in that time I con-died. I had to earn my leader weapon. It wasn't given to me. It subsequently got stolen and then broken. It took Thror about a week and a half to get me another one, and it was my off-spec that I didn't use much, so I didn't get to use the weapon all that much. All of you kids today are just ####ing spoiled.

My problem is actually the opposite end. There are a few of us, and I'm one of them, that the Imms aren't very fond of. (Don't believe me? Do a search for all the questions I've asked on here and look at how many of them have gone unanswered.) So it's rare for us to get ANYTHING. And for us to get something, we have to put forth one spectacular show, and what we get pales in comparison to what others get. So it's real disenfranchising to see them drop a ton of goodies on the newbs who they say never break RP but I see them do it all the time. If we put in the SAME effort, we'd get the big zip as a reward. And when Cyradia basically proved my suspicions with her leaving, I've lost a lot of interest in this game. I've put a lot of effort into making it what it is today. The imms don't make the game, they make the rules. The players are the game. So after all these years of getting squat, it makes it so the reward for putting forth the effort doesn't carry as much weight as the reward for being lazy and not caring. So I suggest you all take my approach and just stop caring. If you don't like it, play another game. Honestly, seeing the game still alive after all these years is all the reward I need. I get to say I was there in the beginning. NONE of my other gamer friends get to say they play the game they built 20 years ago. I'll get to say that in two years. I just wish it was more fun to play, and player attitudes are the biggest contributors to the shortening of the fun stick, not the Immortal Gifts Arms Race.

The other contributor is the length of time it takes to prepare for the unbalance at hero. 20 minutes of prep gathering for a 4 minute fight they are just going to walk away from. That's not fun, and it is compounded by the Immortal Arms Race. The fix for this would be to make shield and aura potions more plentiful, as well as doubling or even tripling the amount of talismans and scrolls available. That way people would swap licks more often. Then the rewards become flavor text and not game-unbalancing. When this game was at its most fun was when ABS items were non-limted and you could stuff them in your bag and people didn't bitch so much about getting ganked down.

Normally people don't like people for a reason but I digress what is overpowered really isn't. If it can be beat by more than 75% of the classes with an average skill vs average skill it isn't overpowered. It SEEMS overpowered when someone skilled goes against someone not so skilled. Anything does....I REALLY hope the imms lock this Threat because it hasn't really been anything useful it is just another whiny bitch fest because you think your character was worthy of something that someone else got. Nut up or shut up.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

Why the hell do you want to lock this thread man?

This is the attitude that pisses me the #### off. I try to start a thread to have a discussion with the IMMs and players, and certain players just put their fingers in their ears, close their eyes, and go "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU". If you adopt the attitude that the IMMs are perfect and can do no wrong, it's not a healthy attitude for them or you. I'm one of RayBaer's biggest defenders (both in real life and on the forums) but to say she doesn't #### up with her judgement from time to time is patently false.

Of course there are going to be players that feel like they deserve more than they got. Just like there are players like me who feel they deserve LESS than they got. That's human nature.

We get it. You love the CF where 60 hr characters have heroed, gotten into a cabal, and gotten rewards. Honestly, if you were to look at objectively, it should be ME and the other, older vets that feel this way (since we have lives/work/families and don't have time to play 4 hrs a day) but on the most part we don't. That should tell you something.

I don't know man, you want to have a private discussion about this, PM me on Dio's. Just disappointed you seem to be driving the "Stop whining dude everything is fine" attitude in this thread.

I don't get any love! Back in my day we walked uphill in the snow both ways! Balance = no one has any perks, and everyone has full abs all the time!

Cry more newb.

> (Don't believe me? Do a search for all the questions I've asked on here and look at how many of them have gone unanswered.)

I think I answer most of the questions, and I couldn't name a single one of your characters, FWIW.

You answered some of his questions and left some unanswered. It's maybe 50% with +-20% error margin or something like that.

unless you're Isildur

Splntrd

The only people engendering a culture are the pussies like you and half the dios population that won't stop their bitching. I haven't even been able to play in two years or so, but I'm going to be pissed if no one gets cool rewards anymore when I do get time to play again.

If people want cool rewards, then they should play decent, long lived characters. Just go ahead and play the game, Sam, to the best of your abilities. No one is going to give a tin #### that you were so superbadass that you got a third legacy at level negative-fourteen. Also, have you ever gotten a third legacy at a lowish level? You never talk about stuff like that, so I was curious.

PS - Is it true that Oswhatever distended his pk range in his teens, twenties, thirties, and forties as a good aligned shapeshifter? What, that's not impressive enough to give a sweet reward to?

What a bunch of crybabies.

nt

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

...flipping out at the perceived "whining" I am doing.

I never claimed that long-lived characters shouldn't get rewards. In fact, I claimed the opposite, that long-lived characters SHOULD be the ones getting rewards. However, in the current implementation of CF that's really not how it works anymore. Most of the current characters with beefy rewards got them before hour 200.

I'm confused by your second paragraph. For the record, I got a legacy at level 20 with Uthral and at level 17 with Mohdrim, so I can speak for the fact that young (in terms of hours) and low level characters are getting HUGE rewards.

As to your PS, well, Jindicho killed a ####-load of people at those ranks, as did Miric, Silja, et cetera. None of them got rewards like Oshui did. PK-prowress is over-rated when you are able to get RNG luck with cabal/class/race choices. From what I can see Oshui got a really nice forms to PK with (good for him!) and used that as well as Fortress gear-helping to dominate lesser members of his range. It's something I've been meaning to do for a while but just never had the time to. To break it down bit by bit...

Teens - You can get wands that hit for DEVASTATES at these levels. With the right preps/gear, you can kill pretty much any lowbie character at these ranks if you just make sure you are paying attention.

Twenties - Depending on your form, you can clean up. Of course, you better be pimping out limited aura/shield.

Thirties - This is where it's starting to get easier to smoke people due to the fact you have serious levels on your foes. Some of the 2nd tier forms really lend themselves well to PK, especially as an air/offense guy. Still, if he DID distend at 10/20/30 this is impressive.

Fourties - Not hard to distend if you get your form early and have found your sleeks. I've done it before.

>PS - Is it true that Oswhatever distended his pk range in his
>teens, twenties, thirties, and forties as a good aligned
>shapeshifter? What, that's not impressive enough to give a
>sweet reward to?

No it isn't. Rewards should be for good RP, not PK achievements. Rewarding a good PKer for PK achievements is likely to result to a character that is perceived overpowered by the rest of the playerbase. Distending throughout your range can be done by a great RPer that deserves a reward at some point, but it can also be done by a griefing douche. Therefore it isn't impressive enough to give a sweet reward.

What gets me is that people get all these rewards for the sole fact that they write stories well. That is just really stupid to me. Reward away for good RP. Cool, but just because they can write stories? Dumb.

Bryan

"The only people engendering a culture are the pussies like you and half the dios population that won't stop their bitching. I haven't even been able to play in two years or so, but I'm going to be pissed if no one gets cool rewards anymore when I do get time to play again."

Nice to see the player-base here is still roughly eleven years old.

The way Imm rewards worked on my old mud:

There was a month long global quest able to be participated in by all levels. At the end of the month the winner got a unique custom stringed helm with decent hp and hit/dam. Even better, it gave the user detect everything. And permanent blindness.

But it didn't matter that the reward sucked because it gave bored heroes something to do for a month.

If there were no rewards or unique options people would get bored.
I love seeing cabal leaders get beefed up powers. ie) Battle Commander, should be one tough mofo. Scion Chancellor should shift into some abomination. The Nightreaver being logged on, should make every enemy in the realm fear being caught in the wilderness.

It should give people something to strive for. Good roleplay, good interactions, ballsy players...throw them a bone.

That being said, it should be fair to everyone to get neat perks. And as long as Imms are holding true to that, the system works.

Not sure if the Imms would embrace this but I was thinking that the game should add a Immortal Feedback command for characters. When chars are created you select, Newbie, Average, or Skilled. Newbie's who enter this command trigger something that would ping Imms to help them out with some feedback. Might be a good task assignment for HeroImms to help out with. Feedback could be: Not consistent with roleplay, useless in raids. Whatever that char is being deemed at lacking. Might help the people that don't get rewards or get noticed....get better. Or realistically cause more work for the Imms and create more bitching....ha

Role contest rewards should be cosmetic flair to the charactor to help them enact their role into gameplay. It shouldn't be a game changing power boost. You should notice something 'special' from these chars. That being said, the role contest should be two part. One: Writing a good role. Two: Roleplaying that role and impacting other players. That's the kind of person that deserves a a neat perk. The good writers who just powergame and wait for a perk, hell...give them some XP and they can grab a few edges for their effort in making an interesting read.


Having not played this game for 3 years (though reading boards regularily), I feel bad for the Imms. You guys whine when they don't reward, whine when they over reward. I'm surprised they are still volunteering to do this.

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

...hoping you'd give your opinion.

Thanks.

I'd like to think this isn't a "whine" post. Perhaps I didn't phrase the subject/content of the first post correctly, but that's on me. This is merely an attempt to start a discussion with players and IMMs stating their opinion.

I agree cabal leaders should get a bone thrown their way (as someone who has led cabals, it does get really really ####ing tough to deal with some of the #### that comes with it). However, how are we regulating what type of bone someone gets and when they get it?

Is it fine for someone to get a quest form if they are leader of SCION? For a 400 hr character, the answer IMHO is probably. However, what if the character is someone like Tavlin who was named Advisor before he hit 100 hrs? Or ####, even someone like Ghrimriddor getting Commander before he hit level 26? How do you decide when to give characters like that rewards (edited to add: and sometimes those dudes have it even rougher because all the pimp powers you get as a leader aren't even available to you at those levels)? Because they are mostly a different animal than that dude who was a hero for 100 hrs and then was leader for another 200 hrs.

I really like the feedback idea. Any ideas on how to keep veterans from choosing "Newbie"? Players are always going to seek to game the system so I would imagine the goal of an administrator/implementor would be to create a system that discourages "gaming". I think Scar/whoever did a great job with Mummy quests and the anti-"powergame" drawbacks it has. My goal would be to create more situations like that.

Sure, there's favoritism. Same way the people who put forth the most effort in a company and make the higher ups recognize them, etc. get the biggest bonus.

If you would rather have balance by making every character forced to be a gnome hand spec, great, it'd be balanced but boring as ####.

I like having a reason to write a good, creative role and play it for 400 hours.

I like that people are incentivized to try to make the game better for everyone else.

It sucks that you are letting sour grapes color your perception of such.

PS: Saying you want abs and "other imbalanced things" gone invalidates your argument for me.

See, I can totally ignore the salient points and just focus on something I want to.

Seeing as how I've played a total of 30 hrs on CF since June, I don't really see how you can say I have "sour grapes". I just know I've had MULTIPLE people talk to me about how they are concerned that there are characters that are over-rewarded.

Again, I love how people are arguing against my point by claiming "I want to have a reward if I write a good role and play it for 400 hrs" which PROVES my point. Playing your role and playing it well SHOULD BE IT'S OWN REWARD. I can't stress that enough.

I have no idea where you got the gnome hand spec part of your post from. I never wanted that. Let me elaborate on my "Abs and other imbalanced things" comment, point by point.

ABS) I really don't like the fact that you can be totally two different characters depending on where your sleeks pop. Have an easy set? You're instantly competitive at all times. Have a really difficult set? You better know some unique wands and be able to tailor your fight style to deal with the fact you aren't decked to ####. I've often said my solution would be something that would be a bitch to implement but would fix this problem entirely (hence, why I've never been mad at the IMMs for not implementing it). If you want me to rehash it I can, let me know.

Role Contests) As someone who has won 4 (repeat, 4) of them, I think the rewards given for a victory are much too powerful, especially because none of my winners had more than 100 hrs at the time of the win. I really don't find it fair/balanced that I get a very powerful boost on my character just because I can write a good story. I've had over 20 people ask me to write roles for them because, and I quote, "I want to win a role contest and get something cool".

Imbalanced things) There are several things in the game that are imbalanced right now, mainly because the things that used to check against that imbalance either aren't feasible anymore (giant gangs) or logistics keep it from happening (you no longer have 20 people in your range at all times...so ranking is absurdly easy...hence, high XP penalty characters are no longer at such a disadvantage). I've outlined several times how I would fix this and no one but the players have ever commented on it. Despoil is a perfect example. Despoil is OP but only when there are a ton of competant SCIONs on. Normally, that's not a problem, but now we have a lich, two quest form shifters, at least one other character that has a beefy reward, etc. Not only that, you have Krunk slaughtering villagers left and right, and a strong village is one of the things that keeps SCIONs in check.

I get the feeling that now that you've used your AIM list and Hell trips to get you at a competitive point with the best players in CF, you could give two ####s about helping anyone else at this game, and that's sad.

I felt my RP wasn't rewarded. (edit: Any more so than Mharl's rp was rewarded.) Does that not fit in line with your current whine?

I could never be an imm, because I'm a selfish person. I RP for fun, and for the enjoyment of others, but I'd get bored if there wasn't a tangible benefit for me, unless the standard of RP went WAY up, which I would enjoy but would never consider asking for.

The gnome hand spec comes from Sirlin where he talked about balance vs homogenization (you can have street fighter be ryu vs ryu and its balanced!). Essentially you want no high end perks so its "balanced" but also not as fun for the people who do actually put in the time.

I'd like to see role contests only be for 200+ hour characters. Granted my role contest rewards have been mediocre (shield spell on an AP, nightwalker familiar was by far the best but not particularly powerful, a paladin spell on a paladin , and I think one other I can't recall), I still feel it should be so. This discourages writing stories for throwaways.

I feel some ABS locations should be removed (the very easy and very hard ones), but it is a difficult question to answer.

Despoil isnt remotely OP.

Yeah, hell knowledge = pk ability. Clearly.

I mean, you were Chancellor when there was clearly a more deathful conjurer in your own cabal. He also won a RC so it's not like you can state your RP was noticably better than his.

You also got plenty of attention from the IMMs in terms of interaction.

Also, what DID you want? Did you really expect that you'd get some crazy beefy quest skill/spell just because you RP'd well for 200+ hrs? Did you not realize that adding something like that on top of Scion leader powers + quest familiar might just make things not fun for your enemies?

The hell knowledge comment came largely because I played against you when you were a newbie and you've gotten so much better now. However, your attitude has also changed. Old Artificial would have joined with me on this thread.

New Artificial claims this quote

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=93115&mesg_id=93135&page=

never happened. See where I wonder why there is a disconnect for you?

I have no idea why you'd think I'd join with you in this, nor do I see why you seem to think I say that never happened...have you read my sig on dios...?

And I realized I had your opinion as a n00b about CF totally confused with someone else.

You haven't changed. I guess that's bad? You still don't seem to care about anyone if it doesn't benefit you.

nt

>I gotta believe Zulg, at least, knows this is getting bad.

Heh you do know who created every quest form and the current implementation of ABS, right?

In any case, I really feel like we (as a staff) can't win. We've gone through periods with less rewards and special perks and people didn't bitch any less about that than they bitch about there being too much now. If it's impossible to make the players as a whole happy in this specific respect (and I genuinely believe that it is), I might as well give a Narissorin a quest form because I think he's cool and not give a #### if that makes anyone but me happy.

You've put your time into this game. More unfun hours than us players so do it. Just please keep it fair (in game)




>>I gotta believe Zulg, at least, knows this is getting bad.
>
>Heh you do know who created every quest form and the current
>implementation of ABS, right?
>
>In any case, I really feel like we (as a staff) can't win.
>We've gone through periods with less rewards and special perks
>and people didn't bitch any less about that than they bitch
>about there being too much now. If it's impossible to make
>the players as a whole happy in this specific respect (and I
>genuinely believe that it is), I might as well give a
>Narissorin a quest form because I think he's cool and not give
>a #### if that makes anyone but me happy.

> Just please keep it fair (in game)

Honestly, I think it pretty much is across the board.

I mean, maybe I (or whoever) likes and tends to reward a certain kind of character or a certain kind of play -- we all have our biases there and there's no getting around it. But that's a different thing than ooc favoritism, I would say.

Because there is a large enough sample size to show that there is a very high correlation of certain players getting love.

For instance, I love the player of Yarglen. I have since we used to get into all sorts of problems when we were both semi-new. But he got an inordinate amount of early love with all his characters. Now, IMHO, he deserved all that love, but there is a large sample size to prove he gets love more often and earlier than others.

There are other players like this as well and it's really none of my business to claim you're talking out your ass, but again, you're not being completely true (either because you think I don't deserve it...which I understand; or because you honestly don't know, which would trouble me).

Just glad that we are having this discussion because I think it's important for the playerbase and the Immortals to at least hash out the issues.

Eh. I've only had HM's in role contests, and most of my rewards are either cosmetic (Yarglen's long desc) or religion related. Which makes sense, since I actively seek out imms with nearly all my characters. I love my rewards though because they're fun. Titles/long descs...it's the little things that I really really like.

I've never had a third legacy, triple virtues, quest forms/skills or anything. And I don't think I deserve those since I don't play characters over 200-300 hours very often.

...was that I got sick of telling the people I talk to OOC that you are ####ing awesome and deserve everything you get.

I cannot tell you how many times I got complaints about you being "over-rewarded" from Russians, Pittsburgh'ers, pretty much everyone. Anyone who interacted with you or had a brain would realize "Holy #### this dude makes the game more fun for EVERYONE" and wouldn't have a problem with you getting 3000 IMM xp before level 35. I used to love when Russians would be like "Dude's 30-40 in PK and I'm 90-4, why is he getting rewarded" and I'd be like "Maybe you shouldn't be a giant #### and gang everyone and maybe take some chances like he does?".

Does that make any sense?

Well, thanks. That's awesome, I'm glad people think I make the game more fun for everyone. I guess I just don't often feel like I'm over-rewarded since my rewards rarely(if ever) have an effect on gameplay at all.

But anyway, I see the point you're making.

...was to clarify the differences between perception/reality.

Perception is that people are ower-rewarded. Is that true? I don't know because I can't see everything and I don't have access to things that the IMMs do.

But I do know that IS the perception at the moment. And not just one I have. One many players have.

Go back to what I said: we all have our biases.

The Yarglen characters I can remember tend to be the kinds of characters who are pretty much always IC and have memorable RP, take big risks in PK, and are competent enough that at least some of the time those risks pay off. That hits a lot of immortals' sweet spots.

That's not to say other people don't do some or all of those things, and doing any of those things isn't a guarantee of reward. But I haven't the slightest idea of what his IP is or anything like that, and I would be genuinely surprised if anyone else did, either.

About the IP part.

I was saying, I can tell nearly all of Yarglen's characters because of his playstyle. I'm POSITIVE you and other IMMs see the same things I do.

And I'm not saying having favorites is BAD. However, denying that people have favorites re: Imms/players is just patently false and counter-productive. Certain players have tells (Amberion: Awesome RP/PK, tends to get upset when he is looted; Isildur: Super classy, never takes cheap kills, isn't the baddest/best but is close; Jerrokrar: Competant as hell in PK, but think's he's even better than he is and can't be objective about his faults; Igsoeh: Amazing RP, decent PK, loves to mix it up his character's CON be damned; Hopelessdwarf: Super competant in PK/RP, tends to be more comical with his RP/PK, tends to not be able to beat the "best"; Sogs: One of the best PK/RP, always with a really intelligent twist; Balrahd: Classy yet skilled, intelligent yet ballsy, tends to be the guy that people think of as a "rock"...I could go on, but I'm pretty damn good at spotting players before I know who played them).

Make sense?

I wasn't trying to suggest it isn't already fair in game. I really have no way of knowing this. Others might but I don't. I'm just saying it as a general request.

...because of course I know Zulg coded those. I'm not an idiot.

However, did he make them knowing characters would get them at 100 hrs? Did he create ABS knowing people would power rank to 42 (whatever level DA works for black rods) and just delete if they got a bad rod?

Did you guys know that certain immortals would tell players what final forms they would get (allowing players to constantly re-roll until they got the best final forms)? Did you know that while some immortals would be uncomfortable giving powerful rewards, others would have no problem giving someone Dopple?

And here's how you can "win" this discussion. Simply have the discussion. I'd love to know the decision process when someone wins a role contest/gets a quest spell/skill/form, but I understand that you will most likely claim "need to know basis" (which I do totally understand). I just think that while you guys are good people, part of the processes you guys use are fundementally flawed.

>However, did he make them knowing characters would get them at
>100 hrs?

I'm not aware of that ever happening though maybe it has at some point.

>Did he create ABS knowing people would power rank to
>42 (whatever level DA works for black rods) and just delete if
>they got a bad rod?

Maybe not, but I'm not sure what a better solution is.

>Did you guys know that certain immortals would tell players
>what final forms they would get (allowing players to
>constantly re-roll until they got the best final forms)?

I'm aware of this happening in years past; any accounts of this happening more recently that I'm aware of are, as far as I can tell, false. At some point, maybe five years ago, the immortal logging around this became much more robust.

>Did
>you know that while some immortals would be uncomfortable
>giving powerful rewards, others would have no problem giving
>someone Dopple?

Sure. I correct for this as much as I think is reasonable.

>And here's how you can "win" this discussion. Simply have the
>discussion. I'd love to know the decision process when
>someone wins a role contest/gets a quest spell/skill/form, but
>I understand that you will most likely claim "need to know
>basis" (which I do totally understand). I just think that
>while you guys are good people, part of the processes you guys
>use are fundementally flawed.

There's really no question we can't always do a little better in this respect, and it's not as though we're totally disregarding player input in this respect, either. A year or so ago, a lot of people were saying that not a lot of characters got rewards on the par of RC rewards for other things; I think we've made a conscious effort to give more high-quality rewards to characters who are cool and who we think make the game better in other ways -- but then, here we are with you (and some others) saying that that's too much.

...are the player attitudes behind them.

Let me expand on that: I think that this has a created a culture where people feel like if they DON'T get rewards, they can't compete. That's been proven time and time again by some of the responses from people saying things like "Why would I play 300 hrs if I didn't get a reward dude? U so crazy Sam". Let me make this perfectly clear...THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE PLAYERS, NOT THE IMMORTALS.

It started around 2007 or so where people really start bitching that immortals didn't give enough rewards (personally, I loved that era of CF just as it is but that's just me). So, because players kept bitching and bitching and bitching, the immortals probably decided "Hey, we can do these role contests semi-regularly and now people won't complain because there will be plenty of characters getting rewards". That then led to players getting upset that they wrote a "badass" role and only got 1000 IMM xp, or that they won the role contest and only got 2 trains and full empowerment where someone else got the barrier spell. It's human nature to covet what others have, so I understand that while this isn't something you can ever fix (can't please all the people all the time) it's still something that should be discussed and tweaked at all times (IMHO).

I respect the hell out of the fact you're having this discussion. No matter how people respond I'm not trying to say "This character sucked" or "Immortals are a bunch of cheating ####s". What I am trying to do is take a topic that has been hugely debated OOC via Dio's, IM, gchat, etc and bring it to the Official forum so we can have a frank discussion.

PS Re: imms telling about forms. You know, I think Yoshimi is a dude who has a problem with lying. So I can accept your answer that this isn't happening anymore. However, the fact that it DID happen in the past and I've heard other players tell me the same thing about OTHER immortals, makes me think there is some truth to it. As we stated to Jerrokrar on Dio's, "If 1 person is telling you something, it could be bias. If 3 are telling you, it could be sour grapes. If 25 are telling you this, there's something to it".

My only goal is to make CF a better place for everyone (especially n00bs, who are already at a disadvantage).

>
>>However, did he make them knowing characters would get them
>at
>>100 hrs?
>
>I'm not aware of that ever happening though maybe it has at
>some point.

Granted it was RC win, but I got unicorn at 120 hours. I can't speak
for any of the others.

-Big rewards will make role contests a chore, since people will write more than they find fun to do in order to get them. They will also be more likely to be unhappy with their rewards due to the unfun effort put in.

-Role contest rewards should be capped to an edge at maximum. Custom titles and last names are also good rewards, as is immxp.

-Shrine RP and being a good follower has tattoo as a designated reward. I find things like a religion-specific quest form a bad idea as the reward for being a good follower.

-There is a concern of favouritism in CF. Imms watch their own followers and cabals more other people, not to mention how time zones happen to match. Thus these characters much greater chance of getting noticed and rewarded than their non-follower peers.

-Quest forms and other such rewards should focus on being nifty perks that gives the shifter an option he didn't have (such as giving sand lizard to a shifter with no regen forms), rather than the form pwning everyone and their mother and making other forms obsolete due to the badass form being the better option in every situation. Same goes with things like greater angel conjuration. There should be a reason to conjure a normal one in some situations rather than giving the conjurer an OP version of an angel, you should give something that is suitable for some perk job rather than a power boost.

-Powerful quest forms and such perks should be reserved for older, established characters who RP well. You could give out lesser perks for younger ones.

All these forms aren't that much stronger they are just different.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

Different, not stronger. There has been massive complaining about the black jaguar's power in Dio's (and whether it was given too early) and I recall some Imm mentioning that quest forms are a bit more powerful than regular ones. Perhaps they should generally be as powerful as (or less powerful than) rather than a bit more, with the focus of giving something the shifter doesn't have, and the bit more saved for rare special cases of stellar RP and longevity.

They gave abilities to cover basic preps such as stone skin, fly, or even healing abilities like cure poison/plague as rewards.

I think a couple people even complained about it not being powerful enough lol.

Nt

FIREBLOOD (3242)
Some adventurers can learn abilities that most of the mortal realm only dreams of.
The ability to raise one's own body temperature to the point of cleansing yourself
of maledictions is a nearly lost art, and is known by some as having the blood of
fire.

nt

nt

Attachment #1, ( file)

I think quest forms, legacies, quest skills etc should be given to those who last a long time that have good RP.
(Not nessicarily deathful, if thats not the point of the character).
But Consistent good RP should be rewarded in the long run.
I dont have any problems with characters that get into the 250-300 hour range getting perks like these.
As long as it is for Good RP. I dont like the idea of these being Role contest rewards.
You have other things you can give out at that point. I'm not saying don't reward players.
I'm just saying role contest is not where these big rewards should be.

That being said, I love it when imms give out small things like Cabal edges, last names,
imm exp, con quests (noobs need more con yo), custom long desc (these are so cool).
These make me feel like I'm doing good with the character. Eventhough they are small, they make me happy.
When I got a cabal edge with Elleryne, I was so happy.

I like the idea of quest forms being a unique cool form, especially if the idea is to give a shifter something they didnt have before, like a water form, or a regen form, or a flying form.
But, I still think they should be in line with a highest tier form. They are awesome already without the power boost. Even just making them cooler in a utility sort of way is awesome enough.
Zulg is awesome for coding them btw. They really are a cool idea.


I love it when Imms run cabal events.

Like in fortress where a big undead dragon strikes. Or in battle where you have the rites. These things are fun to me.
I think they are fun for all involved. Even if you die horribly.
It is a good chance to reward the cabal with small things for doing well in the fight.

I got a third legacy for winning a Thror rumble contest a long time ago. That and a few cabal edges and titles are all I've ever gotten. So long as the rewards are given based on character merit and not ooc connections I don't have a problem with them in the game. I like the challenge trying to pk the people with them and it also makes me want to step my game up a bit more in the hopes of getting something neat.

I really wish the rewards would get curtailed. I've never received rewards greater than some ImmXP, a last name, and once I was Dread Lord for all of maybe two weeks. I've written what I thought were rather flushed out roles, and received 1k-1.5kxp for them, but have never won a role contest. Beyond my limited ability to care or put a lot of time into CF, I can admit that I'm REALLY not interesting to watch. I don't run around trying to PK everything that moves, and I don't go out of my way to interact with everyone on the mud- in particular Imms. I really just play to have some interesting fun, explore, read, et cetera.

My favourite Immortal is still Scarabaeus, as I think he's the only Imm that cares to watch my characters- and I loved the rewards he gave me: Randomly Restoring me in minorly dangerous situations, essentially just saving me time in doing something rather mundane.

And this comes from a player who over the last couple of years has only played A-Ps and Necromancers with any seriousness.

This coming from a person that hasn't gotten anything more than a tattoo. I understand how hard it is to keep a long lived character and I believe they should be rewarded for what they do. Role contests are fun and quest forms just add a little difference to the class. The funny thing is anyone could beat these people but are too afraid to. Porcupine, Pachyderm, Gorilla, well any offensive form should either fight close to these forms.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.