This is brought on by the thread on the battlefield regarding Jinroh's induction or lack of induction in several cases, but this is not about Jinroh specifically.

Reading the thread reminded me of the many times I've thought that a key problem with cabal joining is the seemingly inevitable ic/ooc blending. This manifests in the cabal leader's perfectly reasonable wish to ensure an applicant is dedicated to the cabal's cause before inducting conflicting with the ooc ability of a player to play their character at the right times and for the right duration.

In other words, the player is really being judged and tested, not the character. And that, I think, is wrong.

Unfortunately, I don't have a particularly good solution, either.

I don't like that you have to spend a significant amount of real life time doing pre-cabal things, when in truth the character would be way past that because days, weeks, months, years have passed. If the character comes up and says "I've done this, I'm doing this, blah blah blah" that should be enough, because for the character, it's been virtually his whole life. The problem is, the player of the leader knows that the player of the character has had this character for like ten, twenty, thirty hours and that's not good enough to show the requisite 'dedication' for some.

Like I said, I'm not sure what the answer is, but having identified the problem I thought perhaps an open ended discussion might find some helpful changes. Even if minor.

My underlying philosophy:

1) Cabals are not for everyone. They should have minimum standards- members should know why the cabal exists, know how their character fits into it, and perform the expected duties of a member. New players should have a chance of joining a cabal, but not a guarantee.

2) Uncaballed must therefore remain a viable option for anyone. It must be possible to survive and make an impact without a cabal affiliation. To this end, cabal incentives (powers, cb, etc.) should be good enough to encourage people to want to join, but not so good that a caballed-vs-uncaballed fight is an automatic slaughter. Since the powers are good, they should include responsibilities like a higher roleplay bar, defending an item, achieving IC goals, developing a storyline, etc.

3) Cabal leaders should have reasonable autonomy in deciding cabal policy and inductions. They should have reasonable but achievable expectations for induction. Applicants should have to pass some sort of test, either task-based or meaningful questioning. Regurgitating a helpfile or just being around a lot is insufficient. Mortal leaders take responsibility for the people they induct, and they only look as good as their inductees.

4) Cabal leaders should be around a good bit. I don't look so much at hours online, but I like to see that the majority of issues (applicants, external factors like wars, quest-type stuff, etc.) get the consideration they deserve. As long as the job is getting done, I don't care how much time it took them to do it. Someone who is on 10 hours a week doing "leader stuff" is preferable to someone who is on 20 hours a week but puts other things first. They also need to set a roleplay example- their hours should be high-quality, not just high-quantity.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>3) Cabal leaders should have reasonable autonomy in deciding
>cabal policy and inductions. They should have reasonable but
>achievable expectations for induction. Applicants should have
>to pass some sort of test, either task-based or meaningful
>questioning. Regurgitating a helpfile or just being around a
>lot is insufficient.

I've never known how to handle the situation where an applicant fails to answer the "meaningful questions" to my satisfaction, yet where my character would have some motivation to "teach" them about what the correct answers should be. Show them the error of their ways, etc.

I certainly wouldn't want to rule someone out entirely for not understanding the nuances of a particular cabal. Especially considering they may be a new player, or may never have played a member of that cabal before. But if I describe to them why their answer was deficient and they agree with me, which of course they will, then what reason is there not to induct them? Whatever wrong thinking they originally had is now supposedly fixed.

I've never known how to handle the situation where an applicant fails to answer the "meaningful questions" to my satisfaction, yet where my character would have some motivation to "teach" them about what the correct answers should be. Show them the error of their ways, etc.

If it's a Fairly Important Goof, you could recommend a task related to the point to drive it home. Anyone can agree with you as you explain your accepted interpretation. The 'nod and smile' applicant is fairly common, but they are also difficult to read.

As an example, if an Acolyte got an applicant who answered questions with a bit too much Bash, the Acolyte leader is obligated to help the person understand their ways, etc. However, the leader might also say to himself "I'd better make sure this guy knows that Bash isn't always the answer(*), and that it's a FIG. Off to Moudrilar's for this one." Usually, one of two things will happen:

1) The person will delete a 30+ hour character, rather than face this 1-2 hour "hoop" and be tricked into learning the nuances of a somewhat obscure area. They will then find a forum to complain on, wherein they explain that the leader was never on, doesn't understand Acolyte, has poor sportsmanship, and tried to make them be a "cookie cutter character" (**). It is OK to lose these people. They would have sulked and deleted soon anyway.

2) The person will say to themselves "Note to self: Acolyte isn't the Bättlërägërs. I made a mistake there. Keep that in mind in the future before it causes more FIGs." They will run to Moudrilar's, spend a reasonably fun hour or two running around it, inadvertantly learning the map, finding some new stuff, learning its backstory, and figuring out why you send them there. They may even incorporate some of that into their own outlook. Now, they come back to you, you've got something fresh to talk about (always good for the leader), and they've made up for their FIG. This person will typically have grown a bit from the experience, and will probably be a better Acolyte since you've cemented a core point into their mind.

(*) I'm no Acolyte, but I think that the answer is instead Äxë.

(**) "Cookie cutter character" is forum slang for "a character that properly fits into a group without bizarre stretches of logic". Example: "They wouldn't induct my half-Nightwalker elf conjurer into Bättlë. They only want cookie cutter characters."

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Problems with the quests are that they are sometimes overdone and not always a good thing, when you need to talk to several people to gain entrance and even if you show a good understanding of the cabal they send you out on a quest as standard. Sure sometimes it is fitting but sometimes it is:

Yay, I finally found the leader after two weeks of searching and he wants to talk with me! "Ok, I want you to find 5 pieces of eq that represents why mages are bad and hold on to them until i have the time to talk to you again...and dont bring me crap!"

That can just be annoying especially as you have 12 recommendations already..


Comment two:
> **) "Cookie cutter character" is forum slang for "a character that properly fits into a group without bizarre stretches of logic". Example: "They wouldn't induct my half-Nightwalker elf conjurer into Bättlë. They only want cookie cutter characters."

That is one of my biggest pet peeves, I so hate people saying that they did not get inducted/loved by imms/mudsex because they are not playing a cookie cutter character. Just because you are able to choose odd combos when you start your char does not mean that you are a good roleplayer and even more..people will roleplay back at you. Maybe a rager leader wont like your applicant just because he does not have the same views as the village.

Some cabals always seemed to use the same quest over and over. My ranger applicant to sylvans got asked to find places other than cities where I could get food & water. When I sucessfully used the find water and ambush skills right there on the spot and said I could get food & water anywhere in the wilds, I was told that was an unacceptable answer.

I got into the cabal after a few other interviews and reccomendations, but I have ever since looked back on the cookie-cutter nature of that particular hoop as just a little bit absurd.

2) Uncaballed must therefore remain a viable option for anyone. It must be possible to survive and make animpact without a cabal affiliation. To this end, cabal incentives (powers, cb, etc.) should be good enough to encourage people to want to join, but not so good that a caballed-vs-uncaballed fight is an automatic slaughter. Since the powers are good, they should include responsibilities like a higher roleplay bar, defending an item, achieving IC goals, developing a storyline, etc.

Ok, all too often making an impact with an uncaballed character equates to "becoming a lackey for one cabal or another and helping them with raids." Let's face it, cabals are the heart and soul of CF* and if you're not involved in the wars either directly or indirectly you're doing a lot of exploring and sitting in the Inn. Exploring and sitting in the Inn is all well and good, but how much of an impact have you had on the game?

As an example, you're a simple duergar warrior. You've had a hard go of it, ranking to hero, and now you'd pretty much just like to be left well enough alone. But those gods-be-damned air/off shifter marans keep swooping in and peck-ramming your balloon knot**. Well, to hell with that, those Scions have always left me alone so I think I'll see if any of them want to help me off the Watcher and pluck that fugging bird-goat. TA-DA you're now a lackey, you might as well join and get the powers.

*I apologize if this post urges Prothero to once again post about how racial wars are the answer to all of CF's woes.

**Look it up at urbandictionary.com

I think my assassin Lokrin did (with the mercenary trade), and that the thief that founded the "family" business (whose name I forget) did too. The one who would procure items using his network and traded out of the inn just off trade road.

Neither of them was affiliated more to any one cabal than the others.

So that's what two out of hundreds? I agree with Wilhath that 95% of uncabaled just become lackey's without having to worry about restrictions. I've noticed a ton of people titled for that behavior lately.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

being uncaballed with Eluna. So make it three.

I would have lumped her in the lackey group. You hunted alone a lot, it's true, but I also seem to recall you running with Fortressites and whatnot whipping my ass in gank-squads quite regularly as well.

You hung around the Fortress so much that I thought you were one. So I wouldn't count you in a pure independant who made a difference.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

It was the fortress that hung out with me. I couldn't help being sexy.

I pretty much was with eluna 24/7 when logged in with selatiel. And everytime the fortress would come calling to eluna to help raid or retrieve etc... So yes personally eluna made a huge diffence as did ylare.

Uncaballeds are generally either cabal-lackeys or unimportant. So far we've had an example of two uncaballeds who break free from this mold.

Uncaballed characters have absolutely NO obligation to defend the cabals they associate with.

A recent high-impact character was Graedelus, who was hated by many caballed characters for this reason. He reaped many of the benefits of being uncaballed. Whatever criticism his character faced, it was pure brilliance if you ask me. As far as he was concerned, the caballed characters were the tools, and he benefited while they all died.

Also, a healer or transmuter is NO ONE'S lackey. If you try to to order one of these classes around, be prepared to have them laugh in your face. A healer or transmuter can turn the tide of any battle - uncaballed or not. I might even throw skilled bards, assassins, shaman, and invokers in this category.

So while I completely understand what you are saying, I'd have to agree with Valg here. There ARE options for uncaballed characters, and they can be even more powerful than caballed ones.

"It's your BBQ and it tastes good, but..." I think this newer philosophy is the reason why cabal wars have lost alot of their fun. It was a lot more fun when 85% of people were caballed and their powers made them potent. When four or five people in a cabal online was average instead of a lot. I'm sure for you jaded imms who don't play much anymore, you like this new way of things but I think for most players it's alot less fun. The long multiple interviews, the 30 recommendations, the 400 hoops to jump through. Then every cabal but battle(Though they are weakened too) has 90% of their powers weakened into these watered down cabal powers light. I'm sure Nepenthe could wipe out his whole pk range with just Trepidation, but give me a break. I'm not saying turn trepidation into wall of thorns, but find some kind of happy medium. So in conclusion, elitest snob cabals with lots of hoop jumping + watered down low carb powers = boring. While more open cabals with quick to ininduct leaders + powers in between vodka shots(old powers) and wine coolers(new lame powers) = Happier players. And yes I just got back from happy hour.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

... than to let an unqualified character in.

An irresponsible player with no RP is capable of wreaking too much havoc if given certain cabal powers. This is similar to why we don't let our kids play with fire, and we don't allow cousins to marry: the results are usually bad.

At the very least, players should set an example and help flesh out the world.

We should err on the side of caution and make applicants jump through *some* hoops. I can appreciate that a lot of players find this frustrating -- but it is safer for all of us.

It comes down to what is reasonable. If you make interviews as difficult as graduate school admissions, you will have cabals with 2 members. At the same time, if your cabal mates all speak "elite" and exhibit minimal RP, that's not very engaging either. It's up to the cabal leaders to decide where to set the difficulty bar. You can't please everybody.

Most cabal leaders are players who RP and would similarly prefer dedicated RPers in the cabal. That's why cabals might seem overly selective or elitist, like you said. You have to understand what is going on in the leaders' minds. If so much as ONE player steps out of line, the entire cabal gets hell for it... It's understandably boring for you and many others, but the stakes are too high for a leader to let loose on inductions.

I would agree with you if for most of CF's history cabals weren't much easier to get into then they are now. Also the powers were 10x more powerful then they are now and noone wrecked havok as far as I can remember or if they did it didn't last long. I'm not even sure it's that hard to get into most cabals but for some reason people aren't joining cabals in the numbers they used to. Is it because the powers really aren't that great anymore compared to the massive responsibility? I'm not sure but cabal wars just aren't as massive or fun as back in the day.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I agree that multiple hoop-jumping is a waste of time for a game, but the problem of having awesome cabal powers is:

1. Non-caballed chars get tooled.

2. The pendulum swings waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to whatever side is in power.

Remember the Empire when Istendil was emperor? Remember Battle when Minalcar was leader and how bad the arbs got nailed, then remember how quickly and extremely the balance swang to the other extreme when the Arbiter War of Retribution began?

Getting overwhealmed like that isn't fun. I would of hated to have been a Knight during the reign of Istendil and I DID hate being an Aribiter while Minalcar was around before the War.

I can see why the IMMs toned down the cabals, honestly.

What I would do:

1. Relax a little on the interviews and kicking people who don't log-on in 2 weeks PLUS put an end to this "The huts/spire/citadel is full B.S." It's an artificial way to balance cabals.

If a leader is leading well and people want to join, that cabal deserves to be in power. If your mortal leader sucks, your cabal deserves to suck, IMHO.

2. If I was an IMM, I'd go run quests like that Dark Man thing/Diplomat from Darsylon sort of stuff, interact with chars more, and make the world more ALIVE rather than sit on my ass in asgard or pour over code/yet another new area all day.

That's *gotta* be more fun and would make you less jaded.

I don't buy into the "You make your character, not the IMMS or other players" because people don't live in a vaccume and there's only so much you can do in what is essentially a dead/reactionless world.

Imagine trying to play D+D with no input from the dungeon master.

3. MAGE CABAL.