It seems like the expiration date is keeping a lot of players from rolling these seasonal races. I know that most people delete in a much shorter time, but keep in mind alot of people roll throw away char, quick experiments, etc. Also most people when they roll a character want to think it's going to be a game changer that age dies, and an expiration date kills that dream and so they don't bother. Of course it's not true but perception is reality. I think these char won't pick up steam until that gets changed.
Also Centaurs look cool, but the Vuln_Climb, Vuln_Crawl, Vuln_Boat is really rough.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

This is not a complicated matter. This is simple.

The day before seasonal races came in, you had the mud as it was.

The day after seasonal races came in, you had the mud plus new stuff.

By definition the mud now offers more, does more, has more.

Also by definition it in no way reduced, detracted or diminished the mud. You can play exactly as you were before and completely ignore the seasonal races. Or you can play a new race and take advantage of the newly expanded mud offerings.

Either way, every single one of the complaints about it are not only ungrateful, but likely to have the opposite effect of discouraging change and expansion.

So, in short, shut the hell up. Don't make me start playing again and kick your asses with one of these new races.

p.s. This is Graatch. It won't let me fix the posting name for some reason. Whatever.

He has hit the nail right in the center of the head here. And that's saying a lot coming from me, because me and Graatch don't see eye to eye on almost anything, ever.

If you keep bitching, the imms aren't going to feel inclined to add special #### like this, for us to enjoy. They can run the bare minimum and people would still play, that's a fact. Be happy you got a staff that is constantly trying to add and build to the mud guys, seriously. I wouldn't want to code or add #### if people just complained about what I put in every time it went in.


Greater undead went in, people bitched about them being like sleeks and having to look for them.

Hell closed for revamp, people complained that it got closed.

Seasonal races get put in, people complain about the seasonal system.

I guess you can't make everyone happy. But the bitching is only making the volunteers less motivated to spend more extra time on cool ####. I know it would drain me if I was in those shoes.

I know some people are bitching.

But some people in the thread are just talking -about- it. Which I don't find discouraging in any way. I hope the Imms don't.

Splntrd

also I agree

its easy if you dont like a seasonal race just dont play one

+1 to scarab and any other imms for seasonal races

graatch not calling someone else stupid? oh wait, he called them morons

graatch not demanding others to shut up? wait, there it is

graatch making bad threats to try to goad us into stroking his ego into playing? nope, my bad, second from the last line

at least his point is in the general direction

Still, pretty pathetic troll. Go home and work harder with your cats.

Would a happy-medium be to make the initial "limited" run of seasonal races be non-expiring; and then after they're opened up for everyone, have those guys expire at the end of the season?

That way, some people can have a shot at playing the limited ones without fear of them expiring, but eventually, anyone can still try them out and experience the coolness of them once they're a free-for-all. Granted, you'd probably have to justify the distinction in-game, per season based on an explanation tailored to each race.

I think this might have the affect of having some impacting seasonal characters-- which would be nice to see. The psychological affect that seasonal characters will likely expire really is a tangible factor I believe, and makes them somewhat of a second-class CF option (albeit a cool second-class CF option).

I know that there are exceptions which will be made at the end of each season, but that sounds like it will be a nightmare of a ####storm coming up trying to make folks happy with that one. Good luck

Thanks for all the work though guys, and for giving us these goodies.

They said you can get extra time if you're important, or I would like to think an rp reward. They said they would make exceptions if you earned it. I think this may be the area we can find a compromise where there probably already is one. The centaur druid sunwarden avatar of Amaranthe isn't just going to poof when a certain day hits.

While the extra slots can initially sound like selling point for centaurs, I've noticed that many centaur item slots (back, waist, tail, hooves, legs) are unique and normal gear cannot be worn in them. This kind of special gear also brings extra work in the form of introducing it to the game. Due to the seasonal nature of centaurs, the time frame for this is limited.

-I've noticed that centaurs are unable to wear about gear in their back slots. I can understand this when it comes to robes that would normally cover This, however, doesn't make much sense when it comes to upper body items like capes, which a centaur would be perfectly able to wear. There are also other cape-like items like snow leopard skin, of which I can't really see why centaurs wouldn't be able to wear them.

-Similarly leggings. I understand why pants are not wearable by centaurs, but leggings should be fine, as they only cover the legs (we do have gnomes and giants wearing same leggings after all).

Personally, I think it would be a good idea to let centaurs wear normal legwear (at least leggings and such) and about gear in their backs. This would make them more desirable to use due to increased ability to get actually good gear for those slots.


Fine leathers

I tried a centaur for a bit and noticed that fine leather belt, leggings, boots and cape do not fit centaur's anatomy. Arials and felar get fine leather gear for their wing, paw and claw slots, so why not centaurs? This would make the start for centaurs not so rough, as they would have fine leather gear to resort to while trying to find gear to fill all those slots. I think it would be nice if all fine leather gear would be wearable by anyone. For the other races, it pretty much is (dunno about minotaurs).

I've noticed that many centaur item slots (back, waist, tail, hooves, legs) are unique and normal gear cannot be worn in them

That is by design. Just like tail items previously could only be worn by characters with tails (Felar), now they can only be worn by characters with tails (Felar and Centaurs). Just like hoof items could only be worn by characters with hooves (Minotaurs), now they can only be worn by characters with hooves (Minotaurs and Centaurs). Centaurs have equine legs; there is a reason you don't see horses wearing pairs of pants.

I've noticed that centaurs are unable to wear about gear in their back slots.

They wear gear designed for their (equine) backs.

I think it would be a good idea to let centaurs wear normal legwear... and about gear...

With the unique anatomy of the centaur, I'm more interested in demonstrating racial differentiation. We did this to a lesser degree with Arials, Felar, and Minotaurs--I'm doing it to a greater degree with Centaurs.

I tried a centaur for a bit and noticed that fine leather...

When Centaurs were announced, we posted that they could not currently complete the fine leather quest.

I think custom slots are proven to be a good idea for permanent races. It demonstrates racial differentiation, as you say, and it provides unique cool things to hunt for, and it actually creates physical limitations based on item availability.

I think the issue (with Centaurs) is that there are many more slots, and they won't be around long enough to populate the MUD with satisfactory selection of options for all those slots. Instead, we get more unique slots, less options, and not a lot of opportunities for more. It's clear the gear is sparse, and there's only really as much out there as there 'needs' to be, due to time/etc. - otherwise why wouldn't there be fine leather armor? Not having that is fine - but it seems to suggest certain things about the state of centaur gear - i.e., probably it's in an early stage of proliferation and isn't going to expand much.

That's fine - early on, that's what these races look like, and as knowledge spreads and more areas are edited, the gear becomes a little more "part of the world". But Centaurs are temporary. Their equipment is always going to be relatively rarer than it really should be, and then they're not going to be around long. So all the work I spent finding it has no staying power. Plus I have so many slots - 5, not just 1-3.

Not that I care about gear - but others do, so I can see why this rachets up the barrier for entry to some. Did you intend gearing centaurs to be hardmode?

As a casual player, it looks like you're suffering from two good ideas ('lots of unique gear slots', 'temporary races') that together, equal something that looks kind of gross to deal with.

Just my opinion. And the supposed vulns maybe create a vicious Love Triangle of good ideas. My point being - Centaur is pretty challenging to play, and will require a lot of work (exploring with vuln_boat, vuln_climb, to fill 5 unique slots with the right kind of gear across all levels). Maybe that was by design. But I would like the challenge more if it wasn't temporary. As a temporary race, 1-3 unique slots was probably enough to achieve a semblance of racial differentiation. As is stands, I think it was alittle much.

Unless there's WAY more centaur gear out there than I guess. As in - roughly as many pieces for each unique slot as any of the other permanent races, plus or minus x% depending on how rare you actually want that stuff to be. That's not the vibe I'm getting, though.

Edited to add: So if "THE WORLD WERE MY WAY," I'd be a lot more excited to try a centaur if I knew you were on a spree of centaur gear proliferation, and if they were around for maybe another six months to a year, so that I could play a couple of them. Otherwise, I play way too casually to compete for 5 hard-to-fill slots for just a couple months from newbie to hero and on. That's an explorevet's territory. Is an extension a thing you're interested in?

Splntrd

Roughly a month ago you had 17 PC races to pick from in your free game. Then a really busy guy put in a not-so-trivial amount of work and suddenly you had 18 to pick from.

"Thanks" is the word I think we should be looking for.

I dig seasonal races and how they work. There are nay sayers to every damn thing that changes.

Listen, I think it's totally acceptable to hold multiple, seemingly conflicting viewpoints at once, without being a nay-sayer.

For example;

1) I like what Scar is doing. Thanks, Scar, keep doing it!

2) I have some criticisms regarding implementation and balance - and some of the features of limited races will likely keep me from playing them. "Change" has nothing to do with it.

Criticism isn't condemnation.

Splntrd

I wasn't directing it at ORB, but at the ones who were indeed resorting to condemnation. I'm all for criticism and throw my two cents in when I disagree with how things are done too. However, throwing tantrums is crossing the line a bit.

EDIT: Wait a second. I didn't say anything wrong at all. I said nay-sayers. That just means someone who doesn't agree. Never said someone wasn't allowed to disagree. However, THIS post shows my obvious disdain for reactions such as wareagle's.

Seasonal races are a great idea. I think one of the funnest aspects is waiting to see what they are! I was glad when I read that if someone is playing a long lived character you guys put the option of extending their time beyond the auto-delete. Once in a blue moon everyone DOES play a character for over 300 hours, and for me these are the characters that make me keep coming back over and over again to CF. Just the chance to get that involved and enjoy a character that much is what I as a player goes for with each one, though more than frequently fall short of the mark. So statistically it might seem a non-issue, but to have that opportunity denied at character creation definitely put a damper on things for me, so it is awesome that is probably a non-issue.

New and fun ideas keep CF fresh for older and newer players alike, and even if a hand full of players were vocally disgruntled, understand that the majority of players look at the Frost/Centaur/?/? classes and say 'Oh, neat!'

So yeah, thanks!

nt

I've never understood why we as people/organizations take great ideas and cripple those great ideas into good ideas by making decisions like this. Expiration date on seasonal races is my newest example.

But you're not backing yourself up at all - and you're being all butthuty and "I told you so" about it, which makes it worse.

My first recommendation would ordinarily be to calm down and to start a new thread. Clearly identify the "problem", explain why it's a problem, and explain how to fix it.

(But we both know the discussing of "pre-nerfing" ultimately comes down to a difference in opinion regarding balancing strategies, and freedom for a volunteer staff working on a community project. I'm certainly not going to be the one to say "hey, stop flexing your creativity, coders." I believe the primary argument the last time this came up ran like this: Pre-nerfing makes imbalances less obvious since you're less likely to notice guys who lose a little more often than they should, than you are guys who are winning way more than they should. The counter: at least I'm not getting steam-rolled by every new thing. Another counter: who are you to tell coders how best to look for imbalances? They probably know something you don't about the process - or have personal preferences based on how much time they have/fun they have coding. And so on.)

Splntrd

It seems like the expiration date is keeping a lot of players from rolling these seasonal races.

As silly as I think this is (don't get me started on "perception is reality"), it has had the unintended effect of giving me the rarity of race that I hoped for. I almost don't want to correct this thinking.

Also most people when they roll a character want to think it's going to be a game changer that age dies, and an expiration date kills that dream and so they don't bother.

It has already been mentioned that we have the ability to modify the end date of a character should they prove particularly influential.

Also Centaurs look cool, but the Vuln_Climb, Vuln_Crawl, Vuln_Boat is really rough.

Having put in most of the flags that check for climbing ropes/ladders, there is not a great deal that VULN_CLIMB impacts; and the only characters that have no navigation around that limitation are Battleragers. If it actually became a game-changer, I would initiate the implementation of a way to haul Centaurs up or down such exits (though I wouldn't expect a Gnome with a rope harness to be enough).

I have played characters that have never once used the CRAWL command, so I'm having a hard time seeing the issue there.

There is actually an expansion to the VULN_BOAT limitation that I would like to see take place, so I'll wait before I comment on that.

Ok see as long as there is that chance to avoid the executioner's axe on that date I think that might change some players mind. It honestly wasn't about me as much as some other quality players I saw who wouldn't roll one because of that. Let's hope this brings em around some as I would love to see an amazingly RP'd Centaur.
As with the Vulns I guess you are right about crawl, though there are a few outlander trails I use that this would kill. The climb one I think a smart enemy could really abuse this against them. Probably not as bad as I think they are though. Sadly already have a char in full swing so have to wait for the summer batch. Besides I've always wanted to play a Styx Devil.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

What you think of as "influential" and I think of as "enjoyable" are two extremely different tangents that i never expect to intersect.

Much like empowerment is a dead end for priest classes having to hope that i please someone enough to extend the season is laughable. ("If only you hadn't deleted i was just about to reward you with ...." is oft the lament in the graveyard)

Can't please everyone!

Personally, I feel pretty agreeable with Zulg. Hell, once someone actually HAS their character auto'd from the seasonal limit, THEN someone can comment. At least they're warned. Just like regular autodeletion and age/con deaths.

Well, had I known that I might not have deleted at lvl 4. Well, actually, I most likely would've anyways since I'm really enjoying my current char.

But, the "expiration date" really made me don't want to play one, but htis coment nullifies that.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

>It seems like the expiration date is keeping a lot of players
>from rolling these seasonal races.

Personally, I'm okay with that.

>I know that most people
>delete in a much shorter time, but keep in mind alot of people
>roll throw away char, quick experiments, etc. Also most people
>when they roll a character want to think it's going to be a
>game changer that age dies, and an expiration date kills that
>dream and so they don't bother. Of course it's not true but
>perception is reality. I think these char won't pick up steam
>until that gets changed.

And the ones that really end up being a game changer that age dies are probably less than 3% of the total characters. Again, I'm okay with it. I think there's room to revisit how long before expiration, but I'd really like to get through a full cycle and look at the data before changing it.

We've been open and honest about how they work and you have complete knowledge and if it is not your thing you can pick something else to play. This also opens things up much more than the current implementation of minotaurs which I think is goodness for the playerbase in general. I'd hate to just go back to 6 slots for seasonal races, and good luck getting one.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Especially given the data of average char length and what not, and how rare it is to see an age-death anywho.


On top of that, exclusivity is a good thing =D.


I woulda rolled if I weren't already char-deep :-C

"I would have rolled if I weren't already char-deep :-C "

These are my thoughts. I know seasonals are coming at certain times, but I'd hate to drop a current char just to roll up a new seasonal race, or backburner my char while I play an alt. So for me it will have to work out that my current dies around the time when a seasonal becomes available to play one.
But I'm fine with that, I've played two minotaurs already so I consider myself lucky in terms of getting rare slots.

I am aware I may be more an exception than a rule in play style since I play mostly con/age death characters, but I don't really see expiration dates as a bad thing- especially since if you really do make a name for yourself the Imms will set it aside. To me that gives the player of a seasonal two things, which are both beneficial.

1. If I know have an expiration date, it might help me to play a far less conservative style since I know I'm dead one way or the other, which would actually probably be beneficial for me as a player and more players would probably enjoy me mixing it up PK wise more regularly. Everybody wins.

2. I have a reason to have a good role and have engaging RP so that I am a well known influential character that won't just simply die instead of just being a no RP PK monkey. Again, everybody wins.

How are either of these bad for CF? People tend to complain about conservative PK players and people who just PK with no RP. Seasonal races encourage people to do the opposite of these things.


I think seasonals are great, I just know that it will be rare that I ever get the chance to play one. However, I like seeing them in game and interacting with them because I think they bring a new interesting dynamic to the game. People need to see a char not in terms of the drawbacks or abilities that come with them and just play out a char for the sake of playing out a char, taking the good with the bad. Besides, there are plenty of other races where expiration dates are a non-issue. Maybe all characters should have a 1 year expiration date no matter what?

Anyway, maybe I'll get lucky and get a crack at a summer seasonal but if not I'm still looking forward to seeing them no matter if I play them or not, so thanks to Scar and all the Imms that help on these projects.

FWIW don't you think expiration date is better than the hard limits on minotaurs and frost giants? I want to play a frostie ranger more than I have wanted to play any other race-class for the last three or so years, and I didn't even have the opportunity to try because of the hard limits (just pretending for a moment that I had the time to do it, anyway ). I mean, I have a name, warcry, and desc set out for this pretend frostie.

And I have never so much as had the option to roll a Minotaur - literally, never had the option from the time they became active. So, for me, at least, if frosties ever became available again, I'd prefer an expiration to a hard limit. I have to imagine if there were players out there that wanted to play a centaur as much as I want to play a frosty, they'd agree with me...

Do you disagree, or did you have a clever alternative in mind which it would never hurt for you to share?

No I agree, I wanted a frost giant really bad too and I like the general idea behidn this. Also Sacer's comment about really good char getting a reprieve from the executioner's axe calms that.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

If people are all going to kill themselves within two weeks, why on earth do you feel that you must enforce the AUTOMATIC deletion? Why on earth would you go to the trouble of coding something that you claim the stupid playerbase will take care of itself?

That is a good point.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

>If people are all going to kill themselves within two weeks,
>why on earth do you feel that you must enforce the AUTOMATIC
>deletion? Why on earth would you go to the trouble of coding
>something that you claim the stupid playerbase will take care
>of itself?

Not sure why I even bother to respond because you're obviously just being a ####.

It's a season. It ends. Just like Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. There are people who will play characters for years if you let them (Onya as a recent example). That's not what we want from the design of seasonal races, so we force them to end.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I don't want to be a xxxx Zulgh.

I get what you guys want from the design, but how in the heck does that work? How did we turn seasonal races from a BIG + to this.

It's as if I'm on the horizon and you guys are about to launch Carrion Fields to the world and next time I log on there will be 10000 players.

My feedback is simple, run with great ideas without conditions. You'll see great things come from it.

How did we turn seasonal races from a BIG + to this.

Really?

Think about the effort YOU put in. Why is this condition in place?! It's ridiculous.

I got stoked at getting a frost giant spot. I've had a few tough weeks so I haven't been able to play as much as I did when I got it.

You made this thing(season races) happen, so I'll honor your expiration date.

Here's deleting Krakal(who I had the highest hopes for) and here's hoping you guys reconsider this stupid ass policy.

Nice and childish. Pout and throw away something you were having fun with. Like throwing a tantrum.

If this is a hill to die on, then I guess you have to do what you have to do.

Just so you know I didn't start this tread for people to bitch like that, I really like the concept of the seasonal's, just wanted to see if we could tweak em. Anyway thanks again for adding them to the game.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

because expressing a negative opinion is just me being a $$$$... of course.

>because expressing a negative opinion is just me being a
>$$$$... of course.

No, it's not the opinion itself, it is how you express your opinion is what makes you a ####.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

It's you who basically said the playerbase was a bunch of whiners who delete so early anyway.

You yourself said.... "Some People". I believe it was you who posted the endurance of most charaters...which would seem to preclude any need for forced expiration.

Naturally limiting slots as well as creation windows would undoubtably give you the same results without seeming so totalitarian. I proposed an alternative.

The seasonal/limited races are a great idea...made bleh..

Might I suggest that you give consideration to some food chain Marketing examples. Pizza hut seasonal specialty pizza's come to mind. When sales dip, they roll out limited time special foods. this peaks interest and increases sales. But they dont come to your table and take your uneaten pizza if the offer expires.

Seasonal races = Awesome.
Forced expiration = Terrible for many reasons.

>You yourself said.... "Some People". I believe it was you who
>posted the endurance of most charaters...which would seem to
>preclude any need for forced expiration.

I also posted that people have played a single character for up to two years, which is exactly what we don't want from a seasonal race.

>Naturally limiting slots as well as creation windows would
>undoubtably give you the same results without seeming so
>totalitarian. I proposed an alternative.

People have bitched forever about the limited slots of minotaurs, we decided to try another approach to it, now people are bitching about that. Personally, I'm ready to scrap the entire idea of minotaurs and seasonal races and remove them all. They aren't my baby, but I'm done with them.

>Might I suggest that you give consideration to some food chain
>Marketing examples. Pizza hut seasonal specialty pizza's come
>to mind. When sales dip, they roll out limited time special
>foods. this peaks interest and increases sales. But they dont
>come to your table and take your uneaten pizza if the offer
>expires.

If you want to go the food route, can you get a Shamrock Shake in May/June/July/etc.?

Sadly...I'm getting tired of seeing anything added to the mud anymore because it keeps ending up with people pissing and moaning about everything they hate about it without even trying it out. Every time I read these forums I end up more frustrated and I just don't need it anymore.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Bleh nevermind.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

People will offer their unsolicited advice, hoping that it helps to make the new cool things you introduce to the game even cooler. Their high opinion of you makes them offer their advice so keenly, even without trying things based on how things sound like, just in case it would happen to make things more awesome. Take their advice for what it's worth and trudge along. People do appreciate what you do, but most of that just goes unsaid.


People have bitched forever about the limited slots of minotaurs, we decided to try another approach to it, now people are bitching about that. Personally, I'm ready to scrap the entire idea of minotaurs and seasonal races and remove them all. They aren't my baby, but I'm done with them.

Minotaurs and seasonal races are not a game-breaking factor and won't make CF worse than what it is by existing. Therefore there is no need to remove them. People bitch because they can't get a minotaur, not because someone else's minotaur is ####ing them over.

A feature of the minotaur limit design is that it favours those who roll chars often rather than those who roll few characters. Due to this, minotaur slots generally go to those play shorter-lived characters or multiple characters. I do not roll often and do not expect to get a minotaur slot. As for the new, seasonal races, the deadline for limiting pretty much blocks casual players like me, whose characters aren't going to be finished that fast, from playing them seriously. However, I am fine with this. CF still has races and classes I haven't had time to play and I can still have fun playing. The new seasonal races aren't overpowered, so they aren't going to #### me over and ruin my fun. I can have fun in CF with or without them. I think most people are the same, so there's no need for you to get stressed over the bitching.

And what comes to you being done with seasonal races, if that means more Zulgh loving in other areas of the game, I'm all for it (since it's not likely that I'm going to play them personally). Shifter revamp, for example, was pretty awesome.

I think it's ridiculous given our condition/playerbase that you have never had the option in the -years- you've played/been a part of the Staff now.

Caps either need to be raised or abolished. Let's let you play that minotaur. It won't cost the staff or the game a single cent.

You'll keep doing what you're doing. But what about the guy/gal who just got tired and went on to the next mud or the newest MMORPG I don't even know the damn abbreviation.

Jesus, reading your post makes me wonder about who is up there in Asgaard and how they can honestly think that's the direction CF needs to go.