Ranked to 30
discuss guildm prereq catnap
Catnap prerequisites
Stat : Constitution
Spell : sleep

You will need to gain more levels to learn this edge.

Ranked to 35-36
discuss guildm prereq catnap
Catnap prerequisites
Stat : Constitution
Spell : sleep

You will need to gain more levels to learn this edge.

Ranked to 40
discuss guildm prereq catnap
Catnap prerequisites
Stat : Constitution
Spell : sleep

You will need to gain more levels to learn this edge.

Is it really such an overpowered edge that it has to be from level 40 or above? Or is it an administrative error from when these edges went live?

Please help

Pre-hero-range I didn't feel like felar A-P needed help in this department.

The same face that will get melted off when I hit hero range. Ahh well, at least any future ones will know not to advance for the carrot that is too far ahead.

Thanks for the response.

You're complaining about having the strongest evil sleep short of a drow in the hero range?

the bonus is con based and by the time most AP's hit the hero range their con has dropped somewhat, possibly significantly. Especialy if they did anything other then make a bee line for hero with OOC ranking buddies.

Is that some kind of insult?

Felars are arguably the strongest AP in hero ranks and now they got drow-like sleep. You're complaining because you could lose con before hero? You can't be serious...

My sad face, which wasn't a complaint, was due to ranking more than planned thinking catnap would likely be at the aforementioned levels as the help file never indicated otherwise. I asked because I sought clarification as to oversight or by design. You, sirrah, are the one saying I am complaining and quite frankly that you would accuse someone else of needless complaint is highly amusing.


Maybe a mention in the help file of Anti-Paladins near the pinnacle of their guild etc etc would be good.

Also, the argument of felar APs being strongest in hero range does not say much when there has never been a Felar AP hero and while I think you got closest, you were also accused of being in league with Imperial healer perma so...where are we with that argument?


Man, all I wanted was clarification and now I am in a needles argument.

Regarding con. I BELIEVE how it works is that con based regeneration and skills take an inbeween of your racial maximum con and your current con. This also works on HP gains as well, making losing con not even close to as much of a big deal.


Now the imms can clarify. Does this works only towards HP gains and con based regeneration? Or does this go in to play with CON basted skills too?

> Does this works only towards HP
>gains and con based regeneration?

Yes.

I haven't played a lot but I would figure the intangibles of fire giant/duergar would trump that of felar at hero.

The only thing I see going for felar is the fact that they can dual wield with a spear which gives them an advantage when it comes to vault and to a degree with tanking. And if they get a big weapon they can get decent mileage out of lashes.

If I compare that vs... the inherent bash protection of being giant sized... I personally would go with the giant over enhanced vault chance or arial for inherent trip protection and better lashes once charged up. Heck felars give up the ability to have 2 proging weapons which is somewhat significant once charged up.

Mostly because it is hard to say that being a perma-enlarged fire giant or having inherent detect hidden isn't a massive massive boost in staying alive at the high ends of APdom. I'd take giant size (and the possibility of being enlarge-giant size) or detect hidden over felar bonuses any day of the week, but perhaps I'm missing something or overplaying the dangers of hiders to an AP at the top levels (meaning not just rank but once you start to snowball and need to essentially never die again).

-Middle of the road exp-penalty (more targets)
-Middle size (can grow or shrink as necessary)
-High dexterity (MOORE ITEMS! Also evade more and less chance that dexterity loss screws picking up things, etc)
-Claws with 2-hander (more damage that hits a lot - this is pretty significant)
-Magic Scar's edge
-Feral growl for more saves
-Catnip
-New AP edges
-Proccing unblockable hand attacks (extensions for more damage)
-Pack sense (more unblockable attacks with the right group)
-Anazu Mask (arials can't)
-Fire-immunity belt to cover your primary vulnerability
-Some amazing felar gear
-Strength is the easiest stat to get on uber-gear to cover low str.
-Lots of HP
-Also preps cover bash-vuln (wraithform potion)

Basically when you're packing 300+ charges, you have all the damage/hp you need. So what helps you? Protecting it. Felars have easily covered vulnerabilities, great stat/save gear options, and non-blockable options to get damage out. So you don't care when you run into a mongoose....if you can't kill your target quickly, chances are you won't.

My dream is a felar with an Abomination 2-hander axe with claw attacks from extensions while fire immune and able to see hidden - or a pincer staff using the new crippling strike edges along with morosa charge and stunning polearm.

Alas, it'll never happen.

I don't know why I think that, but I do.

Nt

Coulda sworn I had it on my felar.

I just thought it was restricted when using with the troll amulet.

Do you mean pack sense? You also mentioned having a lot of very specific highly limited fear and preps.

>Do you mean pack sense? You also mentioned having a lot of
>very specific highly limited fear and preps.

I never said it was easy, I said they were the best - big difference.

On paper it may look good. In reality, it isn't.

You're forgetting some things:

- 17 STR means you are probably going to be at max carry weight almost all the time, especially with wands and preps in the inventory. Also, their average size and low STR (which means low weight) means bashing is generally going to suck, which leaves trip as your option to keep people in a fight...good luck there at hero.

- The "sweet spot" size you say they are at isn't really sweet at all. Sure they can shrink/enlarge, but so can non-rager giants. The ensuing bash-down by a giant sword spec would be brutal.

- Until they reach critical mass (and who really knows how many charges that might be with a felar - it's uncharted territory), there are many, many things that should be able to beat one fairly easy imho.

- A felar AP can't use an orb of travel if they are using a spear (and I am pretty damn sure you'd want to use a spear or other 2-handed weapon), and it's a lifesaver in so many situations that people will engineer to bring down an AP.

- Bards will theoretically rip you a new one. You won't be able to lag them. If they have semi-decent saves, good luck with deafen. And, if it lands, they will just run. If they fiend you, you're pretty screwed.


To sum it all up, I predict a huge let down from this build. I think it has _potential_ in the way that everything has potential under the perfect circumstances. Feel free to try, but don't be pissed if it doesn't go at all the way you imagine it will. I believe bash will be your #1 enemy, and Ragers will eat you alive. Rager bards even moreso. Additionally, you aren't going to have an easy time keeping anyone in combat. You'll have to do some extremely tedious prep-juggling due to your weight-carry restrictions from being so pathetically weak. So, lots of running around, lots of near kills without sealing them, and lots of bashdown deaths. Sounds fun.

Last response on this:

>- 17 STR means you are probably going to be at max carry
>weight almost all the time, especially with wands and preps in
>the inventory. Also, their average size and low STR (which
>means low weight) means bashing is generally going to suck,
>which leaves trip as your option to keep people in a
>fight...good luck there at hero.

If you're bashing, you're doing it wrong. You can keep plenty of people there other ways (curse, deafen, trip, vault lag, morosa lag, crippling strike, etc). I assure you, even dark-elf APs do fine and that 17str is not that big of an issue at all.

>- The "sweet spot" size you say they are at isn't really sweet
>at all. Sure they can shrink/enlarge, but so can non-rager
>giants. The ensuing bash-down by a giant sword spec would be
>brutal.

Again, if you're getting bashed, you're doing it wrong. If you're that worried about bash, either get the wraithform prep or friends or don't fight - what a concept! I assure you there are a lot of other classes out there that don't bash. Nor would you care if some idiot is bashing you when you have 100 charges - he's impaling himself on you. I said the best, not the easiest.

>- Until they reach critical mass (and who really knows how
>many charges that might be with a felar - it's uncharted
>territory), there are many, many things that should be able to
>beat one fairly easy imho.

I had a pretty high amount on my felar and I was already starting to get there but it ended tragically. When you're hitting for ***DEMO/OBLIT with claw hits, you'll see how quickly it could become strong. I never said it was easy...

>- A felar AP can't use an orb of travel if they are using a
>spear (and I am pretty damn sure you'd want to use a spear or
>other 2-handed weapon), and it's a lifesaver in so many
>situations that people will engineer to bring down an AP.

Have you read my FAQ? I know this better than probably anyone. You can always excision a wand, invoke a strange opal, bring friends, don't fight in dumb places, etc. Being an AP is all about knowing when to fight. Any AP can die, orb or not if you don't play well and get lucky.

>- Bards will theoretically rip you a new one. You won't be
>able to lag them. If they have semi-decent saves, good luck
>with deafen. And, if it lands, they will just run. If they
>fiend you, you're pretty screwed.

Fiends aren't that bad as a felar. There are a lot of uber gears that can easily give you a ton of -mental saves, plus there's always resist mental preps. With haste, claw+weapon attacks, ABS, etc fiends weren't an issue. Fiends eat up unprepared people or villagers.

>To sum it all up, I predict a huge let down from this build. I
>think it has _potential_ in the way that everything has
>potential under the perfect circumstances. Feel free to try,
>but don't be pissed if it doesn't go at all the way you
>imagine it will. I believe bash will be your #1 enemy, and
>Ragers will eat you alive. Rager bards even moreso.
>Additionally, you aren't going to have an easy time keeping
>anyone in combat. You'll have to do some extremely tedious
>prep-juggling due to your weight-carry restrictions from being
>so pathetically weak. So, lots of running around, lots of near
>kills without sealing them, and lots of bashdown deaths.
>Sounds fun.

Until you get an AP with 150+ charges, you don't have much experience to stand on. Not trying to be mean here, but this build was never suggested for people who think unability to bash will be a problem. I assure you, plenty of APs do not just bash people down. All your arguments are even more slanted against drows and yet they have been some of the strongest APs - and now felars have their sleep capability *and* insane combat with better bonuses/stats/etc.

It's not easy but it has the potential to easily be the best. 100+ charges on a fire giant vs felar, I'd take the felar every time.

That seems like a pretty high bar to set for someone to be 'experienced' with an AP.

This is his felar AP.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=92760&mesg_id=92760&listing_type=search

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=30724&mesg_id=30724&listing_type=search

Not bad. But certainly not Ravon/Cabdru/Gurzweeg level.

nt

You haven't shown me one yet.

Sure, you've played a bunch of successful ones in the 36-42 range.

And sure, you've even racked up around 50 charges with a few.

But dude, for the love of good, can you not exaggerate or just blatantly lie all the time? You wonder why people keep bringing up your past, it's because you haven't ####ing learned from your mistakes at all.

whistle while you leverage an OOC perma.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=14809&mesg_id=14811&page=

I can find logs of the specifics but as you can see, the PBF is messed up this far back. This was before it was fixed by Zulg but I basically was in the right place at the right time and was able to leech more than one other AP's weapons. I didn't get many myself with this guy though but I had quite a lot.

Here's another, although I think I only got roughly around 125+ but he is in the top 20 of APs of all time.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=18012&mesg_id=18012&listing_type=search

Had around 100 on this guy also

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=18493&mesg_id=18495&page=

Ironically my best AP of recent was denied. 300+ hours in hero range, a few charges short of lightning control (I've had 3 APs with LC). No PBF because of coordinating a Hell trip not using in-game notes, yehaw. Make sure you broadcast your trip via notes kiddies!

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?5,851822,851822#msg-851822

Troll harder...

And none of those pbfs show a 100 charge let alone a 150 charge AP

Stupid split personalities.

Last post in this thread, seriously. I really hate trying to fight this out for zero reason.

What about "This was before it was fixed by Zulg" do you not understand. PBF results for a ton of APs are/were broken. Do you really think I had this?

Total unholy blessing charges 37
# of leeched weapons 5
# of deaths from destruction of your unholy weapon 1
Best unholy weapon +31 Hit, +31 Dam, +267340 HP, +267340 mana

I'm done, believe what you want.

Total PK Wins 44

so you got 150 charges on 44 pks?

Or was the pk stats broken also?

I dont give a #### about any of this but you set this "You have to have a 150 charge AP to be an authority" bar and yet you can't provide a single shred of evidence to support that you've met the very standard you set.

Just saying

"I can find logs of the specifics but as you can see, the PBF is messed up this far back. This was before it was fixed by Zulg but I basically was in the right place at the right time and was able to leech more than one other AP's weapons. I didn't get many myself with this guy though but I had quite a lot."

I never said once I got 150 charges on that char by himself with kills, I did however get them in leeches. "right place at the right time".

*snip* Nope, you're not worth it. Taking the high road, believe what ya want. I'm done.

Its not my fault you can't show evidence of what you claim.

You've had one, according to you, but the stats don't reflect that.

So we can say you are an authority but only with an asterisk?

lol

cmon man

He can't.

Because it didn't exist.

>>I never said once I got 150 charges on that char by himself
>with kills, I did however get them in leeches. "right place at
>the right time".

It does seem to me that if you hit 150 by having a pile of good leeches fall into your lap that maybe 150 charges shouldn't be your bar for knowing what you're talking about.

> think I only got roughly around 125+

Total unholy blessing charges per pbf = 37. Which is like nowhere near 150 but I guess I am willing to accept that maybe over your life you had 150 charges given that you had 10 AP kills and 5 leeched weapons.

> Had around 100 on this guy also

Total unholy blessing charges per pbf = 86. Which is like 57% of 150 charges.

So we can say that your two is really one with an asterisk. Guess thats how they do math these days.

nt

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=92760&mesg_id=92760&listing_type=search

Like, seriously, you put in maybe 20 hrs in hero range?

I think Krilcov has spent more time in hero range as a felar AP than you, actually (and to be honest, his felar APs weren't that bad).

Was glad you decided to try something drastically different than your usual.

You seemed to have a lot of fun with that character as well.

I didn't really get to interact with Mubs, really, but he seemed very quality.

I'm not sure if you played hero range long enough to get a good feel for it as felar A-P.

Out of curiousity, have you ever heroed an AP? It stood out from the characters you listed that none of them were a hero. Sure, you were in PK-range of most (if not all) heroes by the virtue of high experience penalty, but also were able to fish for the low-hanging fruit. I do acknowledge your expertise with sub-hero A-Ps though.

Loshnak my Scarab AP was my latest, he was 300+ hours old. No PBF though since I was denied. I find it funny that even Daevryn want to bash me, yet won't let me prove it by giving me my PBF for him.

I haven't had very long lasting chars though until more recently, I had a habit of blowing up and deleting earlier. I also stayed away from the AP class recently because I got tired of the bs from the playerbase and randomness of ABS.

> I find it funny that even
>Daevryn want to bash me, yet won't let me prove it by giving
>me my PBF for him.

If you think "It does seem to me that if you hit 150 by having a pile of good leeches fall into your lap that maybe 150 charges shouldn't be your bar for knowing what you're talking about." is bashing you, you take things too personally to survive an hour as me. Some of the players (including you, at times) take ten worse shots at me before breakfast. Maybe the realization that it isn't always great to be on the receiving end of it is a revelation for you and I hope it's one that will make you think twice if you're in that position in the future.

Anyway, it's just what I said: lucking into good leeches is, in my opinion, just that, more luck than anything else. Sure, if you're a badass, the guy in your cabal that happens to loot someone else's weapon is more likely to give it to you than the dude who burns through two con a day. But it seems kind of ridiculous to me to use something that's 90% luck as your bar. If you had said something like "I know what I'm talking about because I've had X number of different kinds of APs as far as lightning control" I wouldn't have had anything to say about that. I'm not sure why pointing out the flaws in the bar you set equates to bashing on you, but there it is.

I think you're a reasonable authority on A-Ps, but I do feel like you have some blind spots around hero based on what you've written. That's just my opinion. I've probably played more train wreck A-Ps than anyone so it's not like I claim to be infallible on the topic either.

Incidentally, when a character gets denied the pfile is deleted on the spot, so it's not a matter of me not allowing you to have your PBF. There's nothing to publish. It's gone. It would have briefly been in the regular pfile backups but we sure don't keep years of them.

strong too

edit to add I generally agree with most of Torak's points just think the 150 charge comment was a bit much

So it's cool to say "Play a villager before you comment on them," but not cool to say "Play a 150 charge AP before you comment on them"? Sounds like a double standard to me.

As for Torak, his achievements with AP's do make him well worth of listening in general when it comes to AP things, but I won't acknowledge him as an AP god who is an absolute authority about all things AP.

Stay away from CF long enough, your guard goes down and bad habits arise. My comment around your bashing was related to the "I'm not exactly trying to ad hominem you on this, but have you ever had a successful A-P at hero range for long?" Sure you could forget about Loshnak my most recent AP but it seemed underhanded.

I did in fact totally forget about Loshnak. Not intentional.

I'm not exactly trying to ad hominem you on this, but have you ever had a successful A-P at hero range for long?

What A-P PK looks like at hero is a lot different, and it feels to me like you're assuming that a lot of the things that you legitimately can get away with in the mid-thirties will still hold up there.

I think felar a-p is pretty playable but you're really glossing over the relative downsides.

Just you guys won't let me show the PBF The other post shows some other APs that had high charges, I've had a lot who didn't have great charges but I had positive pk ratios usually.

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?5,851822,851822#msg-851822

I never said they had no downsides, I just think they're more easily covered and dealt with than the others.

I'm really too lazy to find the quote from you on this...

>>- The "sweet spot" size you say they are at isn't really
>sweet
>>at all. Sure they can shrink/enlarge, but so can non-rager
>>giants. The ensuing bash-down by a giant sword spec would be
>>brutal.
>
>Again, if you're getting bashed, you're doing it wrong. If
>you're that worried about bash, either get the wraithform prep
>or friends or don't fight - what a concept! I assure you there
>are a lot of other classes out there that don't bash. Nor
>would you care if some idiot is bashing you when you have 100
>charges - he's impaling himself on you. I said the best, not
>the easiest.

Bash has killed more APs than probably all other skills combined. It's incredibly dangerous. A maran storm sword will give you a run for your money every single time you aren't fully prepped, and that's nothing to say of other people coming along. Not being giant-sized is a significant liability.

>
>>- Until they reach critical mass (and who really knows how
>>many charges that might be with a felar - it's uncharted
>>territory), there are many, many things that should be able
>to
>>beat one fairly easy imho.
>
>I had a pretty high amount on my felar and I was already
>starting to get there but it ended tragically. When you're
>hitting for ***DEMO/OBLIT with claw hits, you'll see how
>quickly it could become strong. I never said it was easy...

That's why felar AP's are not popular - survivability is everything, and detect hidden or weapon resist/giant size are worth way more than a couple nouns of damage.
>
>>- A felar AP can't use an orb of travel if they are using a
>>spear (and I am pretty damn sure you'd want to use a spear
>or
>>other 2-handed weapon), and it's a lifesaver in so many
>>situations that people will engineer to bring down an AP.
>
>Have you read my FAQ? I know this better than probably
>anyone. You can always excision a wand, invoke a strange opal,
>bring friends, don't fight in dumb places, etc. Being an AP is
>all about knowing when to fight. Any AP can die, orb or not if
>you don't play well and get lucky.

You don't mention that probably any serious felar AP will want to use a one handed weapon most of the time for reasons like this, and will probably spend a decent amount of time leeching between weapons. A spear is really good, but also a serious liability.


>
>>- Bards will theoretically rip you a new one. You won't be
>>able to lag them. If they have semi-decent saves, good luck
>>with deafen. And, if it lands, they will just run. If they
>>fiend you, you're pretty screwed.
>
>Fiends aren't that bad as a felar. There are a lot of uber
>gears that can easily give you a ton of -mental saves, plus
>there's always resist mental preps. With haste, claw+weapon
>attacks, ABS, etc fiends weren't an issue. Fiends eat up
>unprepared people or villagers.

I agree here at least, fire/duergar have it worse and that's what it's being compared to.
>
>>To sum it all up, I predict a huge let down from this build.
>I
>>think it has _potential_ in the way that everything has
>>potential under the perfect circumstances. Feel free to try,
>>but don't be pissed if it doesn't go at all the way you
>>imagine it will. I believe bash will be your #1 enemy, and
>>Ragers will eat you alive. Rager bards even moreso.
>>Additionally, you aren't going to have an easy time keeping
>>anyone in combat. You'll have to do some extremely tedious
>>prep-juggling due to your weight-carry restrictions from
>being
>>so pathetically weak. So, lots of running around, lots of
>near
>>kills without sealing them, and lots of bashdown deaths.
>>Sounds fun.
>
>Until you get an AP with 150+ charges, you don't have much
>experience to stand on. Not trying to be mean here, but this
>build was never suggested for people who think unability to
>bash will be a problem. I assure you, plenty of APs do not
>just bash people down. All your arguments are even more
>slanted against drows and yet they have been some of the
>strongest APs - and now felars have their sleep capability
>*and* insane combat with better bonuses/stats/etc.
>
>It's not easy but it has the potential to easily be the best.
>100+ charges on a fire giant vs felar, I'd take the felar
>every time.

Torak, the great AP player. 150 charges from a leech and 10 failed AP's who all sport the same ####ty weapon. I like the idea that someone who grinded up 50 charges "doesn't have much experience to stand on", unless you somehow got a lucky leech for 100 more.

> -Proccing unblockable hand attacks (extensions for more damage)

I don't think that works the way you think it works.

gr

I've never heard of such proccing unblockable hand attacks, but I've never had an AP.

That's because it doesn't work like that.

And this is the best part of the best post ever:

-Middle size (can grow or shrink as necessary)