From what I understand (and I also understand that my view on this is slightly limited because I have only seen them in action and have not played one) Trap Thieves are limited to the things they can, whereas other thief paths get more diversity. Here are few things I think trap thieves can do. You can either agree or disagree if you want:

Trap thieves can only basically sleep, damage, and faerie fire with their traps. The only thing that diversifies this is the ingredients, which only really increase damage and/or duration.

While trap thieves can be powerful in the right hands (like any other class), I feel they're lacking in the variety of traps aspect. I understand that they don't get the least amount of skills (I think binders do), but the skills they do get, I feel, are more toward a utilitarian(bare with me, dont fire at me yet) aspect. I think that's great, but I think they deserve more. I'll make some suggestions a little lower in this post.

My understanding of trap thief skills:
Detect Traps: Pretty self-explanatory, I think.

Gentle Walk: Pretty much only useful in certain situations, but I'll agree that most other same-tier skills are. Except for maybe knife and blackjack.

Combat Steal: Here's where my gripe starts. I think it's a fantastic skill to have. I mean, don't get me wrong. But compared to the usefullness of other same-tier skills, this just doesn't compare. I don't know if I'm wrong in comparing them by tier, but I feel that all thieves should have some sort of skill balance. Compare to Cheap Shot, Blackjack, and Inhaled Poison, I don't think it can...compare(for lack of a better word at the moment).

Disenage: Another gripe for me. I'm sure there are times when this will beat out flee + rogues awarness, but in the majority of cases, it probably won't. Someone's arguement might be that *those* specific cases where it's useful is why it's there. And I'll agree, but I still don't think Trap thieves are getting enough.

Thief Waylay: Great skill, from what I've seen and heard. I won't go into it's details, but I think it's fine.

Shield Block: OK. I like this skill a lot. However, it just feels like it was thrown in there for lack of a better skill. I'm likely wrong, though. Feel free to say so.

Traps: I'll bunch these up. I really, really, really, like the idea of traps. I think it's been one of the most ingenius additions to CF. However, and here's where I get to my point(finally). I think they need some more! How about some malediction traps? I don't want to say poison, because well, there are poison thieves. But how about a trap that, when sprung, triggers poison? Or maybe a trap that triggers some strength or dexterity loss? A trap that blinds you for a tick or two? Maybe even make up something new.

Weapontrip: A skill that I feel is the equivalent of disengage in amount of usefullness. I've never had any experience with this skill, but I don't think you can use it on flying opponents. If wrong, again, feel free to say so. I don't know if it has better lag than regular trip. From what I've seen, the success rate of weapontrip is far lower than trip. I know that some other aspects that are different to regular trip might go into effect, but it just seems like an 'eh' skill to me.

Isolate: I like the way this sounds. Nothing bad hear I think.

I just think trap thieves need to get a little more variety. I know they've been nerfed some in the past, but maybe re-up them with some of the above-mentioned things.

All I ask for is some careful consideration of what I've posted. I haven't run a spell check, so I know it must be full of grammatical errors, but I hope you all can bare with me.


A concerned, yet humble, CatastrophiC, asking for a little 1-up for trap thieves. Please.

==
You get 269938 gold coins from the corpse of Valguarnera.
==

sd

>From what I understand (and I also understand that my view on
>this is slightly limited because I have only seen them in
>action and have not played one)

The above statement coupled with the below statement leave me scratching my head. You haven't played them. You don't know the ins and outs of the class. Yet, you want them to be more powerful. Meh. Posts like these I usually ignore.

>A concerned, yet humble, CatastrophiC, asking for a little
>1-up for trap thieves. Please.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I don't think you should disregard my post because of that reason. I can make some educated assumptions, I hope. I stated that my point of view was specifically from the hearing and watching side. I've seen logs of them in action and have also been against them. I think that might be basis to form at least some opinion.

Also, you said you may agree. I implore that you read my post (if you haven't already) and give some feedback.

==
You get 269938 gold coins from the corpse of Valguarnera.
==

If you want them to beef them up before you play one.

It's cool.

Would you want to play something you felt was in need of some improvements?

==
You get 269938 gold coins from the corpse of Valguarnera.
==

And I think they need a lot of love.

I don't play Duergar, because I think they have too much love.

So why should I listen to you?! Heh, j/k

==
You get 269938 gold coins from the corpse of Valguarnera.
==

Just because i'm a man doesn't mean I can't be a gynocologist!

>I don't think you should disregard my post because of that
>reason. I can make some educated assumptions, I hope. I
>stated that my point of view was specifically from the hearing
>and watching side. I've seen logs of them in action and have
>also been against them. I think that might be basis to form
>at least some opinion.

Sure...you can form an opinion. It may however be totally wrong, based on misinformation, based on such a narrow view of them to skew your data, or be completely accurate.

>Also, you said you may agree.

I agree the traps need to have a better variety.

>I implore that you read my post
> if you haven't already) and give some feedback.

That's about all I agreed with, and some of that is because I don't even have the correct information on some of the skills. I didn't code them, and I haven't played one yet.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>>Also, you said you may agree.

>I agree the traps need to have a better variety.

Good. That was my main point. Now, "Will some changes be made?"
I understand how busy it can get in Asgaard, but just knowing that they might get some variety is exciting.

>>I implore that you read my post
>> if you haven't already) and give some feedback.
>
>That's about all I agreed with, and some of that is because I
>don't even have the correct information on some of the skills.
> I didn't code them, and I haven't played one yet.
>

Just out of curiousity. Have you played many mortals after you've immed? Any in the past year?

==
You get 269938 gold coins from the corpse of Valguarnera.
==

>>>Also, you said you may agree.
>
>>I agree the traps need to have a better variety.
>
>Good. That was my main point. Now, "Will some changes be
>made?"
>I understand how busy it can get in Asgaard, but just knowing
>that they might get some variety is exciting.

Since I've barely had time to spend with my daughter, my coding time has been almost zero in the last month. Will they...probably...when...I have no idea.


>>>I implore that you read my post
>>> if you haven't already) and give some feedback.
>>
>>That's about all I agreed with, and some of that is because
>I
>>don't even have the correct information on some of the
>skills.
>> I didn't code them, and I haven't played one yet.
>>
>
>Just out of curiousity. Have you played many mortals after
>you've immed? Any in the past year?

Yes, I've played lots of mortals since I immorted. I've played a handful in the last year, most of which autodeleted due to lack of time.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I have the solution.

Teach your daughter to code. Then you can *both* fix bugs.

The above statement coupled with the below statement leave me scratching my head. You haven't played them. You don't know the ins and outs of the class. Yet, you want them to be more powerful. Meh. Posts like these I usually ignore.

I have a sneaking suspicion he posted this after a certain Q & A session regarding traps we had. I've played some of the more deadly trappers so I believe I know what I am talking about. Anyway, here are my gripes:

(1) I've explored tons of areas and found plenty of high-level poison ingreds. I can't say the same for trap ingredients. They seem more 'scarce' than poison ingredients, especially high level ones.

(2) Weapon trip failure rate is horrible. With my last trapper/thug, Szordrin, weapontrip+cheapshot did not permalag. I think it should, just is just imho though, since weapontrip lags and cheap shot lags, together they should permalag. This may have been changed since I played Szordrin, however.

These are basically my only gripe with the class build. Pure trapper or mixed trapper/thug is my favourite path, sub 40 I can kill just about anyone with it. The problem comes at 40+. There are no incentives to rank past 40. Since I don't know any high level ingredients, I don't want to be using level 30 knockout on heroes. I get no extra skills after 40. I mean....at 40 I am in my ideal range, why would I ever want to leave it. Get the guilds/small towns to sell some 45+ ingreds and all will be right in the world.

Things I LOVE about the trapper class:

Basically, the trapper build is unlike almost all the other thief paths, cept binder, in that all of the skills are actually useful. They are actually skills that I would WANT and not have to take because I want to advance higher in the path.

Gentlewalk - The Bomb

Detect Traps - The Bomb

Combat Steal - Combined with Gentle Walk = The Bomb

Disengage - Never ever used it, never needed to use it. Waste of thief-points, imho.

Thief Waylay - I was very ####ing pissed after you changed it after I used to to waylay sleeping people with Szor. I just want to say that this skill so so ####ing sick its not funny. On anyone without detect hidden, this skill = The Bomb

Shield Block - nice to have I guess, for ranking. Not really ever needed for pk, due to slow/haste on enemy/yourself respectively.

Physical Trap - I was always curious about this, in that I always figured it would be set off when someone actually tried to open the door/chest etc. However that is not the case. Its set off when they try to walk in that direction. So its basically a direction trap on doors. My opinion is that it should be changed to act when someone tries to open the door/chest, not when they try to walk through it.

Glowing Trap - I've never ever used this. Guess I don't really hunt muters/rangers all that much.

Knock-out Trap - More high level ingredients needed, 45+ would be great. Would add more incentive for trappers to rank past 40. Its great in that its low-risk and lasts longer than blackjack, and it some cases longer than fly

Weapon Trip - The Bomb. Honestly, even though I've posted logs and said this several times, I still catch fliers with this who think they are un-tripable. Even with the bad failure rate, I have to say Zulg this skill is a nice thing you can bring out into a fight when someone isnt expecting to be lagged.

Direction Trap - The Bomb. IMHO, it should knockout the person leading the group when the group walks into a direction. This is not the case however, as usually a random person is knocked out. Just seemed odd to me.

Now, here is my last piece to say. The last three skills are all quite nice, especially isolate or burst. However...I'd take cheap shot over those 3 any day of the week and twice on a Monday. Why? Because as a solo killer, cheap shot will land you more kills than these 3 skills combined. I guess this is where the distinction is made into what kind of trapper you will play, whether its a solo killer or a caballed/group-based pker.

Well, to sum up, I think you guys did great work on the Trapper path. I find it kicks ass and it can kill almost anything sub 40. My recommendation would be to add in more high level ingredients, perhaps a few other things to add more incentive to rank to hero.

Some thoughts, not sure if they are implemented:

At rank 51:

(1) Reduce trap timer to 1 or 2 ticks instead of 3.

(2) Double time the traps stick around for.

(3) Add more high level ingreds!

In General:

(1) Possibly add one or two more trap types.
(a) dis-orientation - say akin to the malediction from h2h failed
assassinate, befuddle.

(b) 'loaded' trap - allow you to put a scroll into a trap, and when an enemy triggers trap, the scroll is recited on them.


Well, wow that was a long post.

Rom.

(b) 'loaded' trap - allow you to put a scroll into a trap, and when an enemy triggers trap, the scroll is recited on them.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv>
Palace Gates

As you enter the room a tell-tale click lets you know that a trap has been sprung. Much to your dismay a box in the corner pops open and a tiny jack-in-the-box springs out. In its hands the jack-in-the-box is holding a tiny scroll. As if by some foul magic, its tiny lips begin reading the tiny scroll.

You yell "Argh! A jack-in-the-box is reading at me!"



Errr, yeah.

I'm not sure if it was knockout traps in general or just a specific ingredient that was nerfed, but traps that used to last around 12 hours when I played Szor now last around 3-4. Jeebus, this took me by a huge ####ing surprise, why was it even changed?!

Rom.

When I used physical traps on containers, it was opening them that set them off.

Yea, it sure is he who didn't know.

>These are basically my only gripe with the class build. Pure
>trapper or mixed trapper/thug is my favourite path, sub 40 I
>can kill just about anyone with it. The problem comes at 40+.
>There are no incentives to rank past 40. Since I don't know
>any high level ingredients, I don't want to be using level 30
>knockout on heroes. I get no extra skills after 40. I
>mean....at 40 I am in my ideal range, why would I ever want to
>leave it. Get the guilds/small towns to sell some 45+ ingreds
>and all will be right in the world.
>

I understand your point, and this is not entirely related to it, but I have a comment re: ranking incentive:

Isn't there some incentive in personally challenging yourself to compete at 47+? I mean, yes, you're at your idea range at 40. No one is killing you. You're killing a bunch of people. You're a terror. To me, that seems like some sort of complacency leading to deletion the next time your character dies - because the challenge is gone. Have you ranked a trapper thief to Hero and competed? Do you think that challenge might present its own incentive?

Because trapper thieves are not the only class that get their ultimate skill at 40. I think the PK challenge at 47+(dealing with competent mages w/full protections, PKs in non-ranking situations, etc.) *IS* the incentive for classes to rank past 40. I'm not sure I've even seen a 47+ trapper thief - and thus, who knows how well one in experienced hands (such as yours) would do.

When you have very few things to offer groupmates.

Things you can offer your group:

1) Better tanking ability than other thieves 'cause of shield block.
2) If you have a tank, you have circle just like the other thieves.
3) You can stand there and recite slow/damage scrolls.
4) Disengage gives you the autoassist opening round bonus and gives you the ability to recite scrolls then disengage and recite another.

Several classes go through periods where they're not especially useful to groups, but they make it hero anyway (Shaman, shifter, necro). In other words, quitcher bitchin'.

.

Having ranked an old-school thief to hero, I'm not certain why a trap thief should be much more difficult.

You lose blackjack, dual backstab, third attack and knife. Big whooop. You can still wield a mace and dagger and spam circle stab, which is what most thieves did anyway. The key value you bring to a group is detect hidden, which more than makes up for your reduced damage output if the group doesn't already have someone who can detect. At least, I'd value it more.

Ranking a trapper should not be too much of an issue. I did it when trappers didn't even have circle. They are probably one of the weaker classes in terms of ranking, but having pk potential should enable them to get the allies they need in order to rank.

Ultimately, you don't need to be good at producing exp quickly in order to get others to rank with you. Area knowledge helps (which trappers should have because of the need for ingredients) in that you can take your group to better areas to rank. Other than that, just use pk and rp to get yourself your allies and let them rank you up.

Have you ranked a trapper thief to Hero and competed?

I ranked Szordrin to 45 where I had a lot of heroes in range. There
was no reason for me to rank further, as I wasn't going to get any more skills and I didn't give two ####s about an extra 50 hp or some help with svspell. I killed Lariya while she was wielding defiance. Soon after I deleted. Then trap gots nerfed. *Insert conspiracy theory*. However, what is the point in ranking to hero, where there are no readily available high-level knock-out ingredients. With the knock-out nerf...I am sure as hell not playing a trapper any time soon.

Infact, I guess I would like the Imm who nerfed knock-out (Sebeok, i'm looking your way) to speak up and say why it was changed. I don't expect him (them?) to, and thats okay as well. But I would like to know if said Immortal has ever played a trapper to rank 45 or even 40, and if so, let see how DeathFull he was. Because for him to have changed knock-out traps, he must have considered them wayyyy overpowered, I mean damn I bet his mortal thief killed a ####LOAD of people? Riiiight?

Jeebus I've managed to get ####ing jaded once again.

Rom.

I'd agree that while we've done a good job diversifying poison ingredients, trap ingredients have been slightly neglected. It's on my personal checklist of "neglected items" (along with certain ranges of instruments, polearms, flails, belts, leggings, etc.), and new areas will likely include more in the near future. Also, before my break I had been "sprinkling" shops and areas recently with new magical devices (*), and it's probably about time I did the same for thieves.

(*) There's considerably more to buy, and we're nearly back to a "full" aura/barrier/shield selection. Most of the other devices are aimed at lower-level characters, however, since the classes that use them are often a bit weaker at those ranks.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com