This is an experiment to see how allowing questions out-of-game works for me. So, for a limited time, ask your questions about Tribunal, Outlander, General Empowerment!

(Note: I reserve the right to not answer some questions.)

-Marcatis

It's always bugged me that I would work my way up to a provincial magistrate, and when I put in the time/effort to qualify for a vindicator or justiciar it means I have to give up on powers/longevity of that post for a very specialized role which had tons of drawbacks and few benefits except in their speciality.

It would make more sense for the justiciar/vindicator roles to be something you do on top of your regular job. So you could be a provincial magistrate and still be the justiciar with both sets of powers at your disposal including inductions. Or if you were extremely proficient at tracking down criminals, perhaps be a vindicator if you were still assigned as a magistrate of Seantryn Modan.

It just seems silly that the most honored positions in the Spire have to give up their old powers they held for perhaps hundreds of hours, and are fairly worthless without scales unlike regular magistrates or provincials.

Does the non-capitalized m in your forum account name drive you insane?

=)

Good morning everyone,

I'm planning to go back to my more normal approach of not focusing on the forums, but did want to thank everyone for what I felt was a very civil and productive discussion.

I was surprised at the focus on Tribunal almost exclusively and little to no questions on Outlander and empowerment, but perhaps that suggests what interests people the most (Tribunal).

Given the positive nature, and hopefully the positive changes that will result, I'm going to consider doing this every month or so to help share public discussion and ideas.

Thanks again!
Marcatis

And think this was a very good idea!

Being the most active imm watching over outlander, and
given the expressed disappointment from some people
with recently picked leaders.. What are things you look for the
most in a leader candidate? All 3 branches.. I know
Lyristeon probably looks more at pks over roleplay..

What about you?


And yea. I still do run on sentences!

I have an idea that specifically pertains to racial identity and ties in with the Tribunal.
I offer that tying jurisdiction in with your home city would promote better role play in that players would be incentivized to play nationalistic/racial roles rather than, “I’m a dwarf protecting human cities because chaos is bad.”
So what if we made Tribunal a little bit more diverse.
Make all home town healers show up on “Where Protector”
Being inducted into Tribunal sets your jurisdiction to your hometown, Akan, Arkham, Tir Talith etc.
Races normally incapable of “hometowning” there can’t be reassigned there.
Provost and Provincial can still reassign to the big 4 or back to a racially/alignment compatible home town.

In my opinion the whole capture the flag mentality of the game has long been a detractor for role play or at its’ best exceedingly shallow roleplay. For me at least, this would open up a wider array of RP possibilities.

###################
Re: Outlander

It's a cabal that seems to be ideologically broken.
The Bark (Which I was shocked to find out that Outlanders themselves didn't even know existed.) clearly states it's a Nature cabal.

But I find people ranking their outlanders on creatures that are at home in the wilds and justifying it with wide ranging justificatios that encompase many things that have nothing to do with nature.

The concept of the ancients seems so vague as to confound most every player of an outlander I encounter. Don't believe me? Ask them IC.

Reavers...I realize they are hunted by everyone and are CE, but I don't think this should give them free reign to kill everyone with impunity and get to hold onto some of the most cherry abilities in the game. Could their be a greater effort to channelize reaver activity toward those things stated on the bark rather than using the bark as a recipie to do what ever I want?

Take Dwarves off the wanted list. It makes no sense, even when considering the dwarven creation myth. Hell, they can be empowered by Outlander Imms and have been. They were Sylvans one upon a time. Let them in or leave them be I say!

There's no reason to say Dwarves should be targeted over any other industrious race- and it doesn't make a lot of sense to hold a single dwarf (with an infinitely variable background story that may or may not include experience mining/forging but probably doesn't) mortally responsible for dwarvish industry.

Splntrd

Even though it menions dwarves and duergar boring into Her* the thing about dwarves not getting in has more to do with the convoluted and nonsensical creation myth of CF.

I don't think anyone really knows what Outlander is anymore and I place the blame for that squarely on Lyristian and Rogue. This is not a troll or a flame, but it is my honest opinion.

Lyristean never smacked anyone for wiping out nature and we all know what sort of accolades he gave Rogues characters, which further left people scratching their heads on just what an outlander was.

Read the fecking bark people.

*I like how the words "Her" and "She" are all capitalized in the Outlander History.

A sincere plea. If this is truely an RP mud, can we have some more clearly defined and logical concepts if we are going to apply them to our favorite game of capture the flag?

Im hoping so, you would move up like 50 cool points if it was

I was severely dehydrated and feverish.

That might explain why my spelling and coherency was much improved of my normal posts.

Does this matter to you at all as a cabal imm? Is there any kind of rule about needing so many hours on duty before promotion? I absolutely cannot stand the idea of just logging on and idling in town. If I were to ever actually try to play a Tribunal seriously, it would mean spending almost all my play time running around looking for pk. Would a character like that just never move out of Seantrym Modan? Is there any way you could see them becomming Vidicator, or is that strictly for people who spend fifty hours on duty?

Time on duty has a role, but not really until you get to the provincial + spots. The Provost (who handles almost all of the city-to-city movement) doesn't really have any technical way to assess time on duty, afterall.

That being said, if you want a greater office in Tribunal, you'll probably need a reasonable amount of on-duty time, which to me just makes sense (you need to be doing your cabal's work if you're in that cabal).

So I know this has been discussed before, but I was curious if someone built into their role that they were born to/destined/ whatever to protect a city like Tir-Talath/Arkham or even stretching it to halfling/dagdan, would it be possible for someone to get some sort of limited powers there?

A more advanced question, have the IMMs considered implementing something similar to the Veil, where order/chaos affect Trib/Outlander abilities?

Example: Order is kicking ass = trib powers in Arkham
Chaos kicking ass = Random spots of Galadon/Voralia/Hamsah have wilderness rooms

What you suggest, with the veil question, is an interesting idea--but not something simple to do code wise/mechanics wise. While i'm hesitant to go into the complexity of the coding (at least to me its complex), I will say just from a mechanic, if Arkham were suddenly protected, who are the magistrates there? How does it fit into the overall storyline?

Now, I do think there could be interesting RP developments , but unfortunately, these sort of changes are not easy to flip on and off.

This same logic is what holds back your idea of expanding to another city; it isn't a minor change. If it were something that could simply be done on the fly, I would be very open to seeing cities moving in (and possibly out) of Tribunal Protection.

you could increase the chance for guards to attack on a given pulse.

Maybe have 4-5 patrolling guards who attack criminals on sight instead of just the standard ones.

I know its a huge coding thing, but I honestly think the veil is a great addition to the game. Thanks for the response.

nt

There can be, and have been. Unfortunately most people who aren't quick to burn out end up as the Provost already, leaving the more rare justiciar/vindicator. Barring extenuating circumstances, folks rise through to Provincial at the will of the Provost, and then get put forth or seek out the advanced role after some time as Provincial.

Unlike outlander, where there is a bit more chaotic nature to the naming of positions, tribunal is very regulated. In my conceptualization, you don't go from beat cop to elite Investigation Detective or SWAT member quickly. You build your cases and work in various areas and get some leadership training, and next thing you're the guy everyone wants to be like.

The whole lack of vindicator/Justiciars in general is really irritating for me. Clearly I always do something to f*ck up the chances of these positions. Other times you see people getting them at short hours without stand out pk etc, then subsequently they delete and stuff. I understand what you are saying about Outlanders not being the enemy of Tribunal conceptwise, however, that is the way things are set up at the moment. Tribs are ONLY allowed to raid Outties.

Tribs are particularly handicapped to hunt outlanders, and it is like Ragers without the head in the old days. I agree also that there is a disparity in power when Tribs are fighting outties in cities and vice versa. However, you ALWAYS know where a Trib is, and rarely know where an Outtie is, or how many of them are hiding in the bushes. What I know is the current mindset of players generally involves one side or the other sitting in their respective strong areas not doing anything. Dull Dull Dull.

The game is about fun, and you can force the dynamic of the mechanisms by changing up the way you approach the situation. Some times the situation can feel impossible and you either die or quit out, or hide. As everyone knows where you are as a trib if you do chose to hide, you are being an uncaballed char more or less. I would love to see a serious rethink of the Tribunal powers, to make them more dynamic in all of these situations, and to change the dynamic of pvp situations.

Again I understand the concept idea you have outlined, but it doesnt really work as well as say Fort vs Scion/Empire, or Outlander vs Empire/Scion, Or Battle vs Nexus or Nexus vs Everyone. Tribunal essentially have the most 'social responsibility' and are the least rewarded in regards to day to day abilities available to them. I hear what you say about Elite super cops, but even those super cops only get what they have in town anyway (with a few bonuses depending spec), Also maybe look at how many hours someone has played cause if someone has over 150 hours of watching over and creating environments for RP/PVP and noob friendlness by covering a city give them some little touch rewards etc, I know I had a ton of cool stuff with Gleebrok (5-600hours?) and I think mostly Trab was responsible for this, I've watched a ton of other chars get nothing for putting in the same level of effort and input, if not more and getting little in return (Given the lack of out of town powers etc).

Also every other cabal gets some form of inherent dam redux, (Ok Scion dont but they get despoil same difference) What gives.. I suppose if you wanted one of those slots you could go for it specifically but I dont think they should be so rare. Also given how often and how long I know you play, the Cabal could sure use more Immortal presence even if it is someone switching into the executioner or something.

One of the most annoying things has to be hearing Marcatis is off partying with the fortress and having little interaction with his own cabal ( I know Provost position generally gets some immteraction there), this is especially an issue because Marcatis is the only Trib imm. Anyway there are a lot of issues in this diatribe but it would be nice to get some idea of your thoughts on these things.

My biggest gripe is the lack of powers outside of the city as well. While I completely understand the concept behind only having the Provost, Justiciar, and Vindicator have powers outside of city, from a fun stick, player point of view, it kind of sucks.

Also, I always thought in the event of no current Vindicator and/or Justiciar, the Provost should inherent ALL the powers of that office. One gets promoted to that office, the Provost should lose those powers.

But the above would still not do much to help the everyday Tribs outside the city. I know it has always been said "Tribs do not lose any powers when they lose the Scales." Perhaps that should change? Only get one guard instead of two? Not able to see hidden people unless they are either within the city the reside over or perhaps only if in the same room as them? I agree there should be some give and take were it to happen, but from a fun stick point of view, SOMETHING outside of the cities would be nice

A form of badge or insignia that can be worn like the one the Justiciar or Vindicator get. Have it completely dependent on what your time on duty is. When you first join Tribunal is lasts for a short time. Say 12 hours and can only be used every 24 hours. Once you have been on duty for say 10 hours (not sure what a good amount would be here) have it jump to 18 hour duration, still only used once every 24 hours. At maybe 40 hours it goes to 24 and 24.

Maybe the badge for the different cities can give you different powers. Voralian could give health and Prot v Evil, etc

Not sure if different classes could get different badges. Might be too difficult to code. Different badges for different cities would be neat though.

So I'm going to reply to both your post and the posts of Dragomir here for my ease (and these responses will probably not follow your concerns one to one but move around).

My view of Tribunal is extremely hierarchical. When people bring Marcatis a complaint, my first question is whether or not they've spoken to the Provost, because I do all I can to empower that role. I very much agree with you that Tribunal has a high level of social responsibility, and I try to make that balanced by giving the Provost so much leeway.

For example, the provost picks the provincials, and barring something really terrible (e.g. random warranting/removal of flags) they get their choice.

This view of Provost centered power does mean that I interact less with the average tribunal, but I suspect most Provosts/leaders would describe Marcatis as easy to find. I do have, and this is one of my big weaknesses, a tendency to not do the random title style rewards. Instead I tend more towards the random casting of a spell on someone, as I think that single heal, or + dam spell might be more memorable. But I agree with you that I should be visible more, I have a sense that followers (and the Provost) often think i'm around a lot, but no one else does. Though I'd have to ask folks to be understanding if a vis imm didn't reply to all tells!

Regarding powers, I don't want to go too much into detail here. There are things I would like to see, particularly more cabal edges for Tribunal. I do think Dragomir's city specific power is interesting, and I will give it some thought and discussion (and he can certainly send me more robust thoughts on it to marcatis@carrionfields.com). I honestly think more interesting edges would go a long way--they are often an easier perk to hand out (but alas coding is not in my skill set).

There can be, and have been. Unfortunately most people who aren't quick to burn out end up as the Provost already, leaving the more rare justiciar/vindicator. Barring extenuating circumstances, folks rise through to Provincial at the will of the Provost, and then get put forth or seek out the advanced role after some time as Provincial.

Unlike outlander, where there is a bit more chaotic nature to the naming of positions, tribunal is very regulated. In my conceptualization, you don't go from beat cop to elite Investigation Detective or SWAT member quickly. You build your cases and work in various areas and get some leadership training, and next thing you're the guy everyone wants to be like.

That is one thing I really don't like about the cabal right now, especially considering it was founded to have an equal balance. I do understand though if its because you're the only IMM policer and can't babysit all evil characters. I liked it when there were evil IMMs too and there was more of a 'balanced' feel to cabal interactions.

You'll only be punished by both Outlander, Fortress, and the usual terrible crop of Villagers reaching for an excuse to buttfuggle you.

gr

So the policy against evil has two sources:

1) Marcatis is anti-evil, in a really big way. From an in game perspective he views them negatively to say the least, and has been (for probably years) trying to get Fortress & Tribunal more on the same page.

2) From an out of game perspective, I believe the distinction between Empire and Tribunal could be viewed as weak, and this closure to evil helps accentuate it, and helps give another home to goodies.


For that policy to come down, I think #1 would have to be, at least temporarily, addressed. That could be done in a number of ways, but as with most changes, it should probably derive from mortals actions.

When did Evils stop being allowed in Tribunal? As Fendril I still inducted them.

two additional ones from what I can tell. Another dark-elf ap and a duergar thief. There have been additional applicants but none really push through it to get inducted.

Less than a year ago; evils currently go through a more rigorous process of recommendations and then it gets pushed up.

How do you justify Trib having the fetish (or another cabal's item) but then allowing those known enemies safety in Galadon (so long as not marked).

Basically, Trib is at war enough to take the fetish but not enough to actually be proactive in guarding it. There's a disconnect there that would be cool to address. My thoughts have always been - if you strike the captain, you should be temporarily fair-game in Galadon or marked a criminal with a decaying timer on the flag.

Second questions. How do you perceive the balance of Trib not having any direct skills to combat Outlander? There is nothing outside of the provost or the rarely occupied justiciar/vindy with guards. In the even that they're marked manacles or shackles can be used. But for general Magistrates they are ill equipped to trying to regain the Scales.

I think some sort of skill that allows a magistrate to 'sort through the brush' of chameleoned outlanders or some such, maybe hired guards outside the cities that can see marked criminals, is necessary for the cabal wars of Outtie vs Trib.

1) Fetish (or other cabal item) and the laws: From an outside the game perspective, sure, an outlander is there to retrieve, they're just using the city laws to keep them safe when they flee....but from the perspective of the laws in the game, they're also choosing to forgo their chaos and accept the laws of the city.
Feeling safe enough to sleep, right there on the road? Clearly that is the beginning of giving up their chaotic ways.

Now while I see the merit of your short-timer warrant as interesting, it is challenging on two fronts: 1) crimes in carrionfields are only paid for when a person dies. This would change it. If we only do a limited warrant for attacking captain, then why not for just a little theft (or other crime) 2) This would essentially prevent any lowbie outlander from retrieving against another trib. If I knew I was going to get a warrant and have Yantha's guards on me as a lvl 27 ranger, would I even try? No way. So my view is that things will remain the same. Tribunals uphold the law, even when it makes things harder for them.

2) Your second question raises one of my own perceptions of the cabal challenges in CF. Outlanders (particularly non Wardens) are against Tribunal. Tribunal, however, is not necessarily against the outlanders. Tribunals care about the cities and the laws. Their enemy could, just as easily, be the Empire (who in theory want to enslave all cities) or Scion who want to unleash all kinds of bad darkness.

The only weakness I feel exists between Trib powers and Outlander powers are with the Executioner, which can either be a painful foe (if you're wanted) or pretty easy for a solo raid. That being said, if you want to write up some detailed thoughts on an outside the city power and email it to me, I'll read it and give it some thought.

A counter to the second question -- What Outlander powers are useful in raiding the Spire, even to retrieve (aside from the random preps that they can gather)? I'm not downplaying the usefulness of the preps but a Wanted Outlander has to go up against not only all the special guards, even out of range ones, but all the city guards as well. The Tribunal only faces Outlanders in pk range. This especially hits the ranger and druid classes since they lose some of their skills when they raid where the Trib doesn't lose anything when they raid except the comparative advantage (i.e. Outtie vs Trib in Spire is -1vs0+ while Trib vs Outtie in Refuge is 0vs1+.

Not to mention the Provost, Vindi and Justi can bring their guards even if they don't have the Scales.

Of course it all comes down to perspective -- regaining the Scales seems like a chore because it's unpredictable where regaining the fetish is predictable but annoying. On the other hand, not having the Scales doesn't impact the Spire much (as far as I can tell) where not having the fetish has a big impact on non-rangers.

Just my experience over the years though my knowledge is a bit dated (didn't even realize evils weren't common in Trib currently).

Ranger fighting in civilized is bad enough without being WANTED.

Add manacles, sequester, guards, city mobs that autoattack,
plus possible hidden players that you can't see vs a ranger
without his best skills and what are you supposed to do?

Prep out the ass and serpent strike them to death i guess.
Personally, I wouldn't even bother.

Always wondered about that.

This is a good question since there are some clear bans in Marcatis faith (evil & chaotic).

I would say more Marcatis followers go Fortress than Tribunal. Beyond this I'd note that I've had a nexus leader follow me (though not tattooed) and notionally could easily see outlander followers (non-chaotic).

Though I'm notoriously bad at being a follower.

I blame Khasotholas. Bastard.

(the above is tongue-in-cheek because my only empowered char ever was a Khaso follower and he totally spoiled me off other empowered chars because he was so awesome).

Corrlaan was my sugar daddy for the bulk of my CF empowerment career and when he went dormant I thought I wouldn't play one again. When I finally did I've now found more than a few of our immortals are pretty awesome. Ones I've specifically dealt with and enjoyed: Neltouda, Scarab, Whiysdan, and Enlilth. Marcatis definitely seemed very interesting too, but I've only had the one initial empowerment interview. Plus, who the hell knows all the random mobs and stuff that interact with me. I think one of the recently fully immed guys was controlling one at least.

Sounds like from your posts that you've really liked Thror too? Don't think I've interacted with him myself, or Iunna since before she was immortal. Might be a good place to start if you want familiar ground.

If I see a nightgaunt snagging someone off from my city and there is only one sufficiently high-level PC conjurer in the world at the time, could that be used as a proof that he did it? It does smell somewhat OOC-ish.

If so, is there a passable IC argument to prove the PC did it and not, say, an Udgaardian conjurer guildmaster? I could not think of one when I played Jahrir (though I still flagged the poor bastard).

To be clear: this isn't a question on how to interpret the law, rather I want to know how far is a magistrate supposed to go with metagame thinking when assessing crimes?

What you raise is an interesting question. I don't know that my response will be entirely satisfactory, as this comes against my view of freedoms of the Provost in defining these challenging areas of the law.

If there is a single pc conjurer with nightgaunts in game, and you were to flag on that basis, I wouldn't have any problem with that. The laws apply to "adventurers" and magistrates could assume that only adventurers track down other adventurers. Truly aggressive folk (that is mobs) don't have the foresight to track and hunt but instead respond in the instant. (I will admit to saying this would be my perspective were I a player of mortals.)

However, if the Provost promulgated a rule that said you had to prove it wasn't a mob (so the attacked had to report where they were taken to, perhaps locate the corpse or such), I would find that acceptable.

So it comes down to this: In the absence of a ruling to the contrary, I think #1 is just fine.

I've met quite a few "no metagame where possible" stances, hence that question. Thanks.

Tunscol the Guildmaster of Udgaard taught me how to conjure and bind nightgaunts. He is evil and not aggressive. There is absolutely no reason that Joe the Battlerager couldn't have killed some conjurer in his guildhall and then told the guildmaster to kiss his ass, whereby an imm could have taken him over and sent a nightgaunt.

This reeks of ooc knowledge that its just a game and mobs don't do that. Since the Tribunal is very much about not flagging innocent people (better the guilty be free than an innocent man killed, etc), not even bothering with an investigation because only one adventurer could have done it, and ignoring all other possibilities, not only does not jive with that, it detracts from the idea of the game as a living breathing entity in which every mob is a real person with feelings/motivations/etc.

If you see a uniquely named zombie attacking someone in Hamsah, Dvarrah the Ravenous is around, but theres also a necro on in that person's range, you don't instantly assume it was that necro, you assume Dvarrah did it. This thought process should apply to every mob, not just those that you know are imm controlled.

I would ask you to reconsider your stance on this.

While I think you make a fair argument in your first paragraph, accepting it would mean removing a big part of investigation. As an example, a magistrate finds a corpse with signs of assassination. That could be the assassin guildmaster or the lone 35+ assassin. Should that crime be unsolvable because it could be any number of assassin guildmasters (or for that matter, should the non assassin magistrate know when assassins learn to assassinate? Should they even have a conceptualization of level?) ?

That being said, I'm perfectly fine with you arguing that it was your guildmaster, and you saw him cackle about getting you wanted, but I'm not a fan of closing off that as part of investigating.

I appreciate that your suggestion could increase the RP requirement, and perhaps make the world more complete, but I can't justify banning this behavior--though I did give an out, become Provost and the hero of your fellow conjurers!

That would be a GOOD thing for the RP of the tribunal. Now you have to prove that it WAS that 35+ assassin, rather than seeing an assassinated corpse, typing who, then 'warrant billyassassin murder'

The assassin could actually appeal his warrant if said magistrate used his ooc knowledge to flag him, in which case the magistrate would have to explain how he came to that conclusion, and if it does not show an actual investigation, he gets booted for warranting without good reason.

He only has a corpse, he should have to investigate the dead person, and their relationship with the adventurer assassin. Maybe that arial assassin is a fellow member of the fortress and you failed to notice the other one who logged off really fast.

As it stands now, if I get nightgaunted from Galadon next to a magistrate as an outlander, and I lie and tell him it sent me to Udgaard where Tunscol killed me, I would bet that the player that actually sent it still gets flagged, despite not a bit of evidence to think that he did it, other than ooc knowledge.

Challenge: play a Tribunal character for 300+ hours and let me know if you still feel that way.

...and have no desire to ever play a Tribunal again.

Maybe "That conjurer" is like me

PS Your point, super valid. "That conjurer" needs to realize you suspend a lot of reasonable thoughts because of the dynamics of the game. IE Death/rebirth; suddenly ending up in Academy; Gods; etc etc etc

wesf

From help 26 (Not the very last sentence.)

The laws of the land that shall be enforced by the Blood Tribunal are
as follows:

*** The areas that are defined as protected by the jurisdiction of the Law
are the entirety of Galadon, Hamsah Mu'tazz, Voralian City, and Seantryn
Modan. With the exception of the fifth law, the cities police their own
denizens, leaving the Blood Tribunal to focus on the actions of
Adventurers and their servants.

And as an Outlander, you are not an acceptable witness even to a crime committed against you so your testimony holds very little if any weight.

I assume that the characters I play are doing other things in their off time. I think we tend to get locked into out concept of time versus what a character is actually living. I don't feel like RPing a real life law class so I assume my character attended a community college with his Galadonian GI bill and already took care of that.

>This reeks of ooc knowledge that its just a game and mobs don't do that.
It's exactly why I asked the question.

However, Tribunal already makes a distinction between mobs and players, which is completely nonsensical IC but is in the game anyway.

So I think metagame logic may at least count as an indirect proof. Thus it and the victim's words amount to 2 pieces of evidence. Which isn't exactly nothing.

1. What is the deeper philosophical meaning of taking a zombie and making him into a pretzel?

2. How open to interpretation is your religion versus some others? I have tried with you once and got the initial empowerment before I ended up having to delete. I ask because it seemed like you have a pretty set-in-stone idea about your religion. (I'm cool with this and dig it, just curious.)

1. Zombie leavings are poison; most likely someone tried to poison you with that pretzel. So philosophically: quasi-edible death, plus salt which is basically a pretzel already (especially when you add the questionable dipping cheese)?

2. Religion specific questions are right on the border of answerable, but I will say that Marcatis's faith is fairly to very specific.

However, that isn't to suggest not "getting it" would hold you back from talks/empowerment/paladin virtues et cetera(nor would "getting it" in the first chat equal the 20 minutes to tattooed).

Thanks.