What is the immortal view of this? My most recent good characters have refrained from killing neutral creeps simply because it doesn't feel right, however it proves to be a signifcant handicap for my character and I doubt it's something that gets noticed.

I'm not talking about refusal to rank on monks, Svirf, etc. I mean the occasional killing of a neutral mob (say the old chessmaster butler) for an item you can use.

Do you guys actually take notice of this stuff, and reward players accordingly? Or should I stop handicapping myself and treat mobs for the most part as mobs, and not get bogged down such details.

Cheers.

I would do it but it doesn't bother me enough.

Diehard purity pallies may not have the leeway that might be accorded a less scrupulous chaotic thief, who doesn't mind getting his hands dirty every so often for the greater good. Most characters are somewhere in between.

But almost any goodie could kill the old Butler with no problems at all, since he was a construct and not a sentient being. Best to read the description to check things like that. Lots of random neutral golems and stuff which goodies should have no problem dealing with. I remember Java getting on my case about the Butler, and then posting in a thread elsewhere about an "oops" thing when he read the description later and realized it was okay to kill him.

Oh, and plants. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with killing aggressive plants which attack you and your party, either.

Barring that, I think it's mostly on your character's decisions.

Most good characters will not be penalized for the occasional killing of neutral mobs, as long as they don't make a habit of it, and as long as they don't do something retarded like goodie dwarf with super dwarf pride role killing neutral dwarf for his dwarf-only crap. Again, though, there are always exceptions.

I think Dern, for example, should be viable regear for almost any goodie dwarf, since he's a particularly special case, and all those retarded pallies who refuse to kill him should go die in a fire.

EDIT: I like how you refer to them as creeps in the topic. Too much warcraft?

EDIT 2: Also, you specifically say goodies in general, not forties, in which case you have a much wider leeway for killing neutrals. For example, most gold aura battleragers will jump good magi in a heartbeat, and outlander/tribunal goodies have been known to jump each other's gold auras without hesitation. Those guys should have absolutely zero problem with occasionally killing neutrals, if they're willing to even take out goodies.

Official word is that it's okay for good characters to kill all the neutral mobs they want.

Some players are adamantly in favor of this.

Some players are adamantly opposed to this.

Personally, I'm with the latter. I think it's ridiculous for good characters to be killing neutral mobs for selfish reasons, in most circumstances. You shouldn't, in general treat NPCs differently from PCs. Your uncaballed storm giant warrior wouldn't murder an uncaballed gnome just for his strange bracers, would he?

And I know it's a handicap and that's fine. It's no different than the way ragers used to be allowed to wear magic-flagged gear. It was lame, but tolerated because boo-hoo doing without certain gear is soooooo heart-breaking. I think that if the staff wants goodies to be getting that gear, then neutrals should be requestable (at say, 500 copper per item level or something) or the mobs should be made good.

And I think it mostly depends on which neutral mob you're talking about.

Is it a deer? Kill the ####er. A construct that was never truly alive? Go for it (despite what my Paladin would have you believe). A wizened gnome that's teaching small children how to read? Probably not cool.

Basic rule of thumb I live by with my goodies, if it's sentient, non-evil and hasn't done anything to justify you killing it (holding item X isn't justification), then you shouldn't.

But if you can justify it (He's burning forests, and I like trees!) in some way, then go for it. Bottom line is, your goodie character needs non-selfish motivations for killing someone. Murder for selfish reasons is typically not a "good" action.

My paladins and Fort chars will kill most any nonsentient neutral mob unless they have reason not to (Outlander and it is a nature mob, for example). Lots of "good" archetypes are fine with killing any "dumb animal" at need.

Isildur (as Mizfara I think?) and I (as Iltanthal I think?) argued a bit about the draconian arch-bishops. They are neutral and sentient, so Mizfara didn't believe they should be killed. I pointed out that they attack anyone who walks in and that they serve an evil being (Medius) and therefore should be fair game. Plus, shinies!