I have hard time understanding why outlanders protect the maran, when there are several paladins within the fortress, arent they supose to hunt paladins?

and Other cabals circeling the fortress, just to keep a certain item..

Its not like the fortress need help from anyone, when there are almost always between 4 and 8 of them awake, and 3'4 of them be paladins.

Cabals should have some kind of dogma that precludes defending other cabals or raiding with other cabals.

>Cabals should have some kind of dogma that precludes
>defending other cabals

You're completely missing the point.

An Outlander who shows up at Fort to kill whomever walks by (as is often the case) can't in any real sense be said to be defending Fort.

But experience shows me that outlanders rarely KILL the fort there. They do, however, kill a lot of retrievers.

Probably because paladins don't die easily, fort has lots of healers who may well be present in retrieval situations (as these are the juciest pickings for an outlander), and it's easier for a fort guy to escape since he has an extra direction to run in.

Everyone seems to be arguing it's okay for outlanders to camp outside fortress and pick off empire/scion coming to raid.

Of course it is. But that's not really the point. That's just opportunism, not collusion.

As I understand the original poster's complaint, though, he's upset that outlanders who camp outside fortress and pick off empire/scion raiders are giving a free pass to fort defenders they would otherwise normally attack. Also he may be upset about the same sort of behavior from fort defenders, who leave camped evil outlanders alone because they know said outlanders are only going to attack incoming raiders.

I have no problem with the behavior so long as:

1. When the raiders are gone, the camping outlanders don't give a free pass to fort defenders.

2. When the raiders are gone, the fort defenders don't give a free pass to camped evil outlanders.

firstly i would not complain if the fortress called one or two to defend if they had no numbers online. But when they hold an acolyte, one or two paladins, a invoker and younger healer. But they still need to call a third cabals healer to heal the maran, and 3 outlanders.

that i just find really sick.

Yet you see no problem with Tribunal + Empire walking hand in hand to hit the Refuge. Cool.

Because now I know where all my enemies and their out of range help is. I am free to roam about killing whomever, or ranking, or gathering preps because they are all sitting around babysitting the fort. Score one for the lowbie bad guy.

You're assuming they're calling the Outlanders for help.

In my experience, that's a bad assumption.

.

I've certainly got outlanders to help defend the fort as a paladin before. Quite why they agreed, I don't know. Actually, I do. It's because Empire is much more disadvantaged than fort there, because Empire can't flee into the fort until the outer is dead.

Assuming something happened that actually happens maybe 5% of the time people complain about it is still a bad assumption in general, even if it's occasionally correct.

>As I understand the original poster's complaint, though, he's upset >that outlanders who camp outside fortress and pick off empire/scion >raiders are giving a free pass to fort defenders they would >otherwise normally attack.
Fort weren't getting a free pass. They were already inside Fort waiting.



>Also he may be upset about the same sort of behavior from fort >defenders, who leave camped evil outlanders alone because they know >said outlanders are only going to attack incoming raiders.
Because Fort was inside waiting they didn't know if the Outlanders outside were evil or not.

First off your assumption that outlanders are supposed to hunt paladins is a bit off from my recolections, they are bunched together with thieves if I remember correctly, and so that part is all about personal preferance. Now that said, I have spent time as a ranger snooping around the fort, less for folk retrieving and more to catch one of thier number running to or from the cabal (track is pretty handy for this) and if someone else I wanted to kill was about I was not going to say Oh, they are retrieving, best let them get it done. Nope I was going to have a pop at them too. I can totally understand where the frustration can come from, but I really don't think its as co-ordinated as you seem to make out. Then again, if the 'certain item' in question is either the codex or the scepter, I could totally see the argument for an outlander helping the fort keep the forces of brutal civilization and corruption respectivly on the back foot.

Case in point, thieves can become Outlanders. Thieves are disliked usually due to their ties to civilization, but they just lose hide.

Paladins are hunted because of "The Code". Rule #9 is why.
9. Respect the laws of the land and those who seek to enforce them.

It's a laundry list of self-imposed laws.

When being inducted or doing the induction, paladins were only ever hunted/shunned because of that law I mentioned. I haven't been an Outlander for awhile, so I don't remember what's written in The Tree, but from the helpfile:

None, however, follow the orderly path, and those too closely linked to civilization or who wreak havok upon the earth are hunted or shunned. As such, dwarves, duergars, minotaurs, orcs, paladins, anti-paladins, conjurers, and necromancers are not welcome to serve Thar-Eris

If we want to say, "Paladins are hunted because of self-imposed laws", then how would any other cabal not be an enemy? Even Outlanders have things the Ancients won't allow (thus making them self-imposed laws).

That is why they are shunned/hunted.


All that heavy armor...the Mother squeals like a stuck pig with every step the paladin takes.

As a paladin and captain in the Fort, I've had more problems dealing with Outlanders in the Mountains than gaining from them. Ask any Fortie what i say when they want to ask the Outlanders to come help defend.

Have i asked others to come help when there are retrievers out of range, you bet, but it's all been Goodies IIRC, because that's the way I play Morin.

As to there are always 8 of us on. Sure is a great pendulum swing back to us again, but I've been on where there are two of us and 4-5 imperials and 2-3 Scions, as well as 2-3 Reavers.

Play through it man, the pendulum will swing again, and all the Fortries will be griping about the Imperials Gang Squads.

Take these things into consideration, all RP reasons aside:

- Fortress has a sweet bottleneck. One way in, one way out.
- It's the only other cabal where you can camouflage one room away from the outer, thus making ambushes incredibly sexy and easy.
- Since it's another cabal, they take all the risk while you just lie in wait for the perfect time to reap the reward. As an evil Outlander, I've taken advantage of this situation numerous times.

Imho this is the main reason. I also know that it IS how many outlanders think because, as I've said previously, I eavesdropped with Bavorlian on the outlanders who were all camo below the huntress and then took back the scales when they all ran off to ambush the one imperial. Four outlanders ran off to gank one imperial who they knew would be attempting a retrieval, allowing me to kill the huntress and retrieve before they could get back.

It's just too nice a hunting ground outside of the fortress for outlanders.

I'll just add that whatever happened to prompt this post, it is clearly a matter to be role-played, not complained about in a passive-aggressive rhetorical question format on this board.

If you think people are cheating or breaking "rules" (as opposed to cabal laws) then this _still_ isn't the place to bring it up.

I agree with your unexpressed sentiment: it's totally unfair. So?

As an Outlander I'm not there to "protect the fortress". I'm there to kill your dumb ass. Or, I'm their to kill their dumb ass*. Either way - I'm killing dumb asses not protecting the Fort.

*The term "dumb ass" is being used jokingly.

Should I dig up logs of some of the stuff *I* have had to face?

Try a different play time, if you can't but have to be with whoever
is on top, delete and play for the other side. If you like the
character, stick it out. Play through the pain man.

More about your post though here is sort of what happens:
Fort has item, they figure joe the imperial/scion or team balance
is coming for it. Half the time they KNOW outlanders are waiting
or whatever. They keep the maran alive and defend as well as they
can. Nothing in most fortie's rp says go out into the woods and
get beat down by the retrievers, or snared and beat down by some
people that half of whom you should NOT kill.

If I'm in a cabal that has no reason to strike the outer but I
even 'think' my enemies may be there, I'll be there quicker than
a shark scenting blood, but I'm not playing that guy... this time.


Long odds give you a shot at showing your stuff too man.
This isn't a game where you can get mommy to interfere and
make your sister give you your toy back.
Hahaha I just realized I should have made my kids play this game.
Life isn't fair, it's kinda like this... now go!
Hrm, then they'd be psychotic AND addicted... nevermind.

It seems that you believe that Outlanders should not protect the Maran because the Fort harbors paladins. Personally, I believe that it is the political nuances like this that make CF such a rich environment.

It is my understanding that the Outlander distaste for paladins relates to the adherence to the code which guides each paladin.

Consider that each character, despite their affiliations, will be forced to make certain difficult choices. In this case, let's imagine that Fort holds The Codex. Now a Warden of Thar-Eris is faced with defending the Maran, by which they directly help some paladins. Well, which is a more abhorrent thing, The Paladin Code or The Empire. I think to most Wardens the answer will be The Empire.

By the same token, it would not be rare, but not unheard of for an enemy of the The Empire to defend The Massive Giant. Though this is less common because Villagers, by and large, will not ask for help. I did, maybe once, or maybe more, maybe alert Dupmaisone (or however you spell it) that Imperials were in The Village if I was by myself when they came while playing Macaca.

I'm inclined to not give too much weight to your agument because you are clearly coming from one of two places:

1. You are an Imperial. If this is the case, I don't care to hear it because there are playtimes when it is naught but Imperials roaming the lands.

2. You are a Scion. If this is the case, it's pretty un-Sciony to complain, unless you are funnyone, in which case you need to just stop playing.

Personally, I am not bothered by this at all and never complained (though died couple of times to maranolanders).

But imo, Fortress is a lawful structure that spreads order of the light across Thera.

It's by default opposite to outlanders, because Fortress = creation and proteciton of civilized people (mostly), Outlanders = destruction of those civilized people (mostly).

Yes yes, I know there may be exceptions. But generally, they ARE opposite (if you use common sense).

nope no text.

And it's aim is rather quite uncompromising and wild, once unleashed fully. But, rather than chaotic, it is the sum of OG, NG AND CG. These three are aspects of the same thing.

Basically it's about unbridled and pure goodness to the extreme.

(Maybe not the best definition I can come up with in a hurry, but it will have to do ...)

-nt

Okay. I won't disput thus, maybe in CF it's thats way.
Just in my opinion, Fortress supposed to *create* goodly socity. Creating such society = act of order. Even if they are CG/NG, they work for order.

I can be wrong here, too But I can't see true goodly society chaotic, or even neutral. Goodness is something very stable and monolith; chaotic/neutral goodnes can exists, but not as an society - only as something casual and temporary.

Just my view on the fortress and it's goals! And two liters of whiskey, so sorry if my spelling is totally terrible

A chaotic good society is certainly feasible. Perhaps there will be a few more broken bones and bloody noses at the end of the day than a society that values law and goodness, but (especially in a fantasy setting) it's perfectly acceptable.

Think of Robin Hood and his Merry Men. A totally lawless bunch they were, but good to the core. You'll point out that they were just a band, not a whole city.

I'll concede that the idea of a CG society will likely fall apart once the population reaches a certain point, but I imagine that in a truly CG society people will be coming and going all the time, few wishing to settle in one place and set up shop.

There is probably a tipping point where even a "good" city begins to value order over goodness, but for the sake of fantasy, I think we all have to suspend our disbelief.

...but we are talking not about chaotic goodness. We are talking aobut the Fortress.

Fortress is NOT a Robin Hood gang. I think, Robin Hood would be uninducted quite fast from the Fortress, actually, should he begins with work there in his CG style. Actually, Robin Hood sounds more like a goodie outlander, but not a fortie.

Actually, I don't understand why chaotic goodies are being accepted to the Fortress at all. Only reason I see - there isn't other goodie cabal for them.

Imo, marans should not be chaotic; if Fortress accepts chaotics, only to squires/acolytes, but not marans.

Sure he's chaotic, but he's not fundamentally opposed to civilization.

Everything he does is for the good of the small people who cannot defend themselves against the sheriff (Empire.) He doesn't care for many laws, especially as he sees them being enforced by minions of the sheriff (Tribunal.)

All that matters to him is the safety and security of those who cannot defend themselves. Sounds very Fortress-y to me.

I suspect we differ on this, but the Fortress itself may be a gleaming citadel of The Light where paladins often pray at the Watcher's feet and this may be the image that Fortress public relations like to spread, it's not all there is.

Looks like we have different views on what Fortress is.

I always thought it's a big, white, shiny, filled with divine light Fortress, blessed by the Gods of Light to create a better worlds and to purify current world. I thought that marans are people who dedicated their lives to destroying Evil and to build stable, monolith society.

In my picture, paladins are most powerful and authoritative in the fortress, and they are holding highest place in it's hierarchy (or should hold it).

I don't believe a chaotic organization can create something for long time (in our case - society of the light). This is why I always considered Fortress as something stable and orderly.

But I agree, there can be different views and technically chaotic goodies just do not have any other place to go (unless they want to join outlanders).

Outlanders, btw, are evil guys just because their goals. How killing goodie shopkeepers can be act of the light? Let's imagine, they have power to destroy the city. They destroy it and many falimies would die, including little childrens. Why would a goodie character do it? He is either not really goodie, or he won't do it.

Just my views, I do not insist they are totally right. But if I will play fortie, I will never play CG; if I'll play outlander, I will never play goodie. No, I certainly can create a good role and find tonns of reasons/excuses for CG fortie or goodie outlander, but it will be a fake. And playing something just for the powers/combo - sucks.

...before getting all judgemental.

For instance, you seem to assume that good (or even neutral) Outlanders get powers that let them do actual damage to a city. Most of those are reserved for evil Outlanders.

Good Outlanders, on the other hand, get powers that let them heal nature mobs in nature rooms, and let them put people at ease with nature, and cure forest corruption (and put out forest fires) and all sorts of goodie stuff.

You get all kinds of interesting RP dynamics between good and evil outties, too. Sometimes those lead to the goodies and baddies within the same cabal killing each other.

Overall your viewpoint of CF is a bit too much like your probable view on the real world. You are almost certainly Orderly Good IRL.

Pretty much sure I'm OG IRL, you are right (thanks to my wife that cracked my ethos from CG)

About outlanders - point taken. But general goal of the outies IS to destroy civilization and order, no? Or I am wrong here?

Maybe I am mistaken, but I am thinking about outies same as of the communists: they had a GREAT goal of GOODNESS, but they did put their own country into a deepest a$$hole in the world. But they really did do their best and their goals were great!

Were they goodies, when they murdered their tzar (and all his family too) for the goodness of the nation? Yes, I'm sure there were good people who were healing wounded soldiers and etc, they didn't directly kill anyone by themself. But together, they did take a part in revolution and helped their leaders to success.

So... in this example, an individual person was a goodie. He did good things (healed, builded fortifications, painted flags, printed newspapers and etc). But all together, they brought one of the worst evilness into this world and murdered millions of people.

I think the over all goal of the Outlanders is to awaken then Ancients, not specifically destroy civilization. Outlanders vary widely in their approach to doing this.

Evil will destroy cities and murder the law abiders.
Good will protect nature and rejuvenate it.
Neutral will do a bit of both.

Even that is pretty generalized. The thing about outlander is it's all about the individuals goals and the only reason they are in the loose affiliation that is the cabal is similar goal of "awaken the Ancients."

Remember, this is my limited perception not having played one. I have been reading a lot about them in hopes of becoming one soon though.

"The Outlanders of Thar-Eris are a motley crew of wildmen, brigands,
barbarians, and freedom fighters who seek to spell the end of the pox
civilization has brought upon the world."

Always thought it's their main goal. Sounds even more like a communists, I don't understand why team Russia aren't playing them mostly, hehe (no offense!)

About ancients... what is supposed to happen when they will wake up? What will they do? In other words, awakening of the ancients is not a goal by itself, it's only a side-effect. What for they must wake up?

I assume ending civilization as Thera knows it is a requiremetn for bringing back the ancients.

Fair to note that ending civilization doesn't necessarily entail burninating cities and all who live within it. A goodie might be more diplomatic about it. Preach about freedom and nature loving.

"Mr. Galadon! TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!"

I think this beats Fortlanders 10 to 1. It is the new verbiage. Live it, love it, accept it.

On a side note. Fortress is not a lawful structure. Has nothing to do with law.

>It's by default opposite to outlanders, because Fortress =
>creation and proteciton of civilized people (mostly),

Fort doesn't care about civilization or not. Their primary concern is protecting the Light and destroying Darkness. Main reasons Outlanders will even go to Fort is to a) Take potshots at raiding/counter-raiding Empire/Scion or b) Evil/Neut Outlanders looking for Fort paladin/dwarf/conjurer.

And I agree with them.

It's just that if people are looking for enemies and they know someone else is holding said enemy's cabal item, they're going to go to that cabal and wait for them to PK.


It's like how if Spire holds the fetish and Outlander is retrieving everybody and their mother passing through Galadon will hop into the Spire to get a PK.

Or if Empire is holding the orb so a goodie is retrieving. Then an orc runs up to the Palace from nowhere to PK the goodie. Either because he found out Empire had the orb or he was just randomly checking.

The retriever only has to flee one room if there's a trib about.