With have just played a thief to 42 as a pure binder (and then later on full Mystic) figured I would just write about some of the pros and cons I experienced. I will say that as only being 42..I'm sure I missed out of some bonuses of being hero, so dont take it as the gosipl.

Edges:
I will start with Edges for Binders. Now granted I understand that edges are just bonus so really, anything added on is pure cake. But binders seem to be lacking in that dept. I know there are some combo edges which include binders, but that is meh to me. I would have loved some edges which would allow faster binding, second chance to bind when failed on hands/leg/blindfold/gag
Arcane Literacy: A MUST if you go mystical or even want to use scrolls at all. I loved this and almost always kept my scroll from being destroyed when I failed on a use.
Devious Versatility: holy hell, I got a 10 extra theif points when I took this (granted, will vary from char to char, so dont expect that number). It allowed me to get my last skill in Mystic path along with 3 other utility skills. Sadly deleted a few days later so didnt get the full effect of said skills

Binder path
I loved some of the little tricks and things you could do with the path and think it has more potential then people give it credit for. However a Drow Scion thief isnt perhaps the best choice for it. Low hp, and really no cabal perks other then nightfist. Mixed with Mystic path and scrolls...GREAT potential to bind up and unload with poison/plague/curse etc scrolls. Also loved that if you failed on a tie or truss, you could reattempt. Sleeping disarm, once you learn the tricks of it...VERY nice.

cons: If you failed your bind hands/legs ever, your pk encounter really was done. Unlike tie/truss where you could attempt over and over, you could not do this. Unsure why one is this way and the other is diffrent. Perhaps you should be allowed to try to rebind if failed, just slightly longer as you have to clear away the broken ropes first. Jut an idea.

Waking up people on failed bindings: Bleh. I can understand a little why its in there, but just makes it hard as hell to get anything accomplished as a binder. Not only does it require everything to fire off...but then you have to worry about a binding waking them up. Ah well

People being able to pull themselves out of shadow drag by the vis command, even while trussed. Kind of negates the purpose of the skill, but really a minor issue. could take it or leave it, however I rarely used shadow drag after people kept vising out of the shadows after I would get one off.

Major issue: People unbinding outside of pk range. I could make the argument for people higher in level being able to do such, but it REALLY sucks when you finaly get off the binding and in pops a level 20 and starts unbinding everything you've done. They were unbinding just as fast as I could bind them up, and I think this is perhaps the major complaint most have with the class. Made me want to throw something at the monitor a few times.

Mystical path:
Great utility path and HIGHLY recommended to all but villagers. Seemed a little lacking to be used as a primary path, but I guess thats why it doesnt take as many thief points.
Arcane Lore: LOVE IT, and made using scrolls damn good.
both veils: again GREAT for what they do.
Lore of ages/Hypno/Infiltrate: got this late in life so I didnt get to utilitze it much however had high hopes for it.
arcane vision: sweetness and less prep work needed

-I agree, binder edges are kind of lacking. Mystic path edges are non-existent. If you could get an edge to immediately gag someone after a garrotte, I'd cry a tear of joy.
-There's tricks to sleeping disarm?
-Failing hands/legs is the bane of that class in a lot of ways. If APs/Necros/Bards could only cast a spell once when someone was slept, uh, ya it'd be terrible. If either of these breaks (and I'm suspicious it breaks more on high dex targets or people with daggers and/or claws), I agree that your run is basically over.
-Unbinding out of pk is another bane of the class. It pretty much dictates that you have to fight out of any major city because some random person will ruin it all. You could say the same for sleeping someone with an AP/Necro/Bard, but really it's quite different. Every level 11 char can't wake someone up or recall them (maybe even a level 1?). For binders, absolutely anyone can ruin your day without much effort. And dragging them away or hiding them in the shadows isn't really an option, especially to consider how slow dragging is on bigger targets like orcs/giants even when enlarged.
-Mystic path is kind of "meh" in some areas....
* The veils, while great, are a lot of points, decent mana, and have a very short timer. I'd love to see the timer increased or some kind of synergy that increased if you go the full path. The veil of souls especially seems pretty lacking for someone like a dark-elf - very niche.
* Lore of the ages is sexy, really. Main reason for the path imho.
* Infiltrate is kind of pointless. As Zulghinlour said, Infiltrate is better than picklock but worse than picklock+adv picklock. So I guess it's nice if you want some better lockpicking than normal but really if you're going that route, you'll just take advanced picklock which will negate this skill. Also it really should work from the shadows or maybe in combat to give it something more.
* Hypnosis has some decent uses, but it's very hard to figure out and most of them are kind of pointless it seems.
* Arcane Vision, same gripe as the veils...needs a longer timer.
-For anyone thinking of the path, I'd go for arcane lore or lore of the ages and stop. The rest is all very niche and limited usage for the point cost.

I'd love to see the mystic path get some edges or made a full-path...but it's probably way down the long list of stuff the Imms are even thinking of working on sometime in the future (when are shamans being finished again?)

You still playing EVE Ordasen?

*I found dragging not that bad with master kidnapper edge + enlarge. *Actually found garrot worked a lot better as well when enlarged (maybe just me).
*On the sleeping disarm, was talking about more on how to use it and not start combat every time. Though sucked not being able to sleeping disarm mithril weapons. Perhaps it should be disarmed but goes to the ground and not inventory.
*I do agree with your opinion about how binders get boned while other classes can continualy retry. However I would say you either allow re-binding, or you dont allow out of pk range (unless higher lvl like corpseguard) unbinding.

*On the Mystic path, I did find it at times "Meh" however I was only up to the first veil until rank 42, so I didnt get much time to play with lore of ages and the other skills.

*On review I would probably just stick with scrolls/arcane lore and work up a second path.

*And no, I've not played Eve in ages. I gave my chars to my friends in the corp and havent played in I think 2 years or so

>-Failing hands/legs is the bane of that class in a lot of ways.

True. Because it's so freaking awesome when you get someone tied or trussed.

>-Unbinding out of pk is another bane of the class.

This does suck. Less so when you had a method of preventing them calling for help. Now? Suck.

>-For anyone thinking of the path, I'd go for arcane lore or
>lore of the ages and stop. The rest is all very niche and
>limited usage for the point cost.

That's what I did. I just wanted arcane lore. Though in retrospect I've wondered whether the points might have been better spent elsewhere. Especially given the arcane literacy edge.

Maybe if you failed bind legs/hands, you could retry them but not tie/truss. If you fail bind-hands for example against a melee class, it really kills your abilities at all - you could probably live without truss/tie if they dropped a weapon at least or bind legs to help against runners.

Thief waylay and gag was nice. It's not so much them screaming for help, it's that random spectator that usually just sat there to watch a fight and loot but now they can ruin it. At least when they call for help, it can take time to respond.

Lore of the ages can help your tanking ability a lot - noticeably more. If you need that for whatever reason, it's worth it to that level. Like I'd take lore of the ages on a Nexun to avoid deathblows and just melee more from your enemies.

>Lore of the ages can help your tanking ability a lot -
>noticeably more. If you need that for whatever reason, it's
>worth it to that level. Like I'd take lore of the ages on a
>Nexun to avoid deathblows and just melee more from your
>enemies.
>
Doesn't lore of the ages say it works vs. magical weapons? And since Ragers can't use anything magical (including weapons), wouldn't that mean there's nothing that Lore of the Ages would be firing on?

It seems to be more around notoriety or famous/legendary/etc - not magical.

I don't know where I formed the impression that Devious Versatility always gave 10 additional thief points, but am I wrong?

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Ah cool. Wasnt sure as I never took it before and thought it might have been based upon how much edge points you racked up. Good to know in the future