Questions about quests:

- Do you have stats on quests, such as how many times a particular one has been done? I realize that you probably can't give specific quest names, but if you could vaguely generalize a level range for a particular quest (i.e. Level 41 quest, 40 times) and feed us the info anyway.

- Along the same lines, how about stats on quest failures?

- Also, how many undiscovered quests are out there waiting for the right adventurer to come along and attempt?

- And lastly, as part of the quest command, would you consider putting a stat in to let you know how many quests are available to you at your current level? Adding to that, how many quests will default to unavailable upon your next rank. I think maybe this would encourage more exploration, observation, and finding out neat secret stuff.

First, I'm in favor of maintaining the status quo.

One of the reasons I like the current way quest information and other "secret" information is maintained is that CF is a game where knowledge is "power". I enjoy exploring and finding stuff in game that I don't think everyone else already knows about. Not because it gives me an edge but because that is part of the fun of such a large and involved world as CF. Around any corner you might find something that only a handful of people have ever come across. If lists of quest were made it would no longer be fun or exciting to find a new quest.

Also, as mentioned by someone below, hidden information like this makes a game like CF stay fresh and more enjoyable to play long term. This isn't WOW or some other MMORP were there is large expansions and changes every couple months to keep the game new and exciting.

>Questions about quests:
>
>- Do you have stats on quests, such as how many times a
>particular one has been done? I realize that you probably
>can't give specific quest names, but if you could vaguely
>generalize a level range for a particular quest (i.e. Level 41
>quest, 40 times) and feed us the info anyway.
>
>- Along the same lines, how about stats on quest failures?

We have stats on how many of the current playerbase has completed/failed a quest, like the following.

Success: 674 Failure: 121 < 1-5 > Academy: Fine Leather Gathering

I'm not boiling all of that information down to generalizations and feeding it to you.

>- Also, how many undiscovered quests are out there waiting for
>the right adventurer to come along and attempt?

Hard to say how many are undiscovered vs. how many have not been completed by one of the current characters. I suspect there are still a handful of undiscovered quests, and we add more here and there.

>- And lastly, as part of the quest command, would you consider
>putting a stat in to let you know how many quests are
>available to you at your current level? Adding to that, how
>many quests will default to unavailable upon your next rank. I
>think maybe this would encourage more exploration,
>observation, and finding out neat secret stuff.

It's not really set up to do that, and we've overloaded the quest infrastructure for other things that are not really quests (like tracking who has killed Tiamat, and the ancient dragons). It would take an overhaul of the quest tables to even make this possible.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Yellow Tesserae.

I do not think it is spawning in the place it is supposed to anymore, making the quest impossible.

Not by my hand, but I know what's going on there.

w

Would you be opposed to players publishing a list of quests and the areas (not specific rooms) where they can be found, and class requirements if there are any?

As a caveat, the quest list could be limited to only mobs who speak and trigger the quest as opposed to quests where you have to know something secret/hidden?

I would not be comfortable seeing this. We don't even talk about quests on the newbie channel.

My *only* argument to that is the only time when it's acceptable to "talk quests" is when you're in a group with other people and you basically spoonfeed them the quest when you do it together. This takes any guesswork or fun out of it, keeps the number of questers down except among vets, and encourages cheating for any kind of clue via AIM. There are still quests I stumble upon now and again I had no clue existed but have been around for years. I've been playing for over a decade and I explore a lot anyway and still somehow missed these.

My point is that there is little to no structure in place to encourage honest questing when there are some really cool things people coded into the game. I'm especially concerned that in addition to the extremely difficult learning curve put on newbies, there is a lot of secrecy/conspiracy among the imms when it comes to game elements such as this.

I'm not suggesting spoon feeding further, but more along the lines of hinting where to go, who to see, and an added idea of level/class/alignment requirements. Surely you can see the benefit?

From the "Newbie3 - NewbieDirections" helpfile
"Aldevari: East out of the East Gate of Galadon, pass the first Eastern Crossroads, proceed east down the Eastern Road. Look for a Large Crossroads; just past that to the east will be a sign directing you north to Aldevari. Look for Sutton the Reeve, he may have work for you."
"Copeham Inn: Two west then south of the Eastern gate of Galadon. Fhragnar the innkeeper will probably be very happy to see you."

I could probably get behind adding little things to help files like that for quests that are doable under level 10, and the "wolf underpatns" quests like the Copeham Inn one are easier to hint at than, say, k'tengs.

If someone wanted to revamp newbie area helpfiles to add things like this, I might be able to sucker a heroimm into fixing the helpfiles in game.

>>I could probably get behind adding little things to help files like that for quests that are doable under level 10, and the "wolf underpatns" quests like the Copeham Inn one are easier to hint at than, say, k'tengs.<<

The whole point is to be more player-friendly and open, spreading information when need be and encouraging players to explore and figure out for themselves.

Here's a situation:
The other night, I was playing and there were around 20 people on. I wanted to attempt to do a quest I hadn't done in forever and I couldn't remember all the parts. The hints *are* there if you spend a couple of hours looking around at everything. Then there are parts where there are no hints. I finished those parts solely by scouring my old logs and relying on memory. There wasn't anyone in my range and what kind of RP would it have been to ask someone out of my range about the particulars of a quest (assuming y'all aren't sitting up there waiting to smite anyone who even thinks about asking about quest info). There were points I was frustrated enough that I went to AIM to ask for help (though no one knew the answer there either). Took at least a solid couple of hours for what, if memorized, would have taken a couple of minutes. I still powered through it.

Now juxtapose my frustrating position with a newbie attempting the same thing (if they were lucky enough to get to a spot to trigger the quest) with none of those same resources I used. How in the hell would they be able to figure that out? Wait hundreds of hours through multiple character lives until they come across someone who happens to mention it or want to do it at the same time?

Are the imms really in such a bubble that they can't/won't empathize with the players in this respect? All this does is increase the fun and enjoyment of the players. *IF* a hint is needed, it'll be in a place accessible by all.

So, out of respect for the hard work people put into coding areas and quests in order to make the game better, I don't just post answers and do my own thing. I will ask you again, however, and you should all confer as to whether this is "change positive" or "change negative". I really don't feel like what I'm asking is unreasonable.

~ Hey, do you have a problem with *players* posting hint information, *area* location, and maybe mob name (similar to what's seen in the newbie helpfile) for quests to the Wiki?

And I wouldnt want a list to ruin that for me.

When I discovered the Zurcon quest, I spent weeks trying to figure it out, because it was (and is) bugged. Despite the annoyance, reading every little bit about that place to figure it out was fun for me.

If I forget how to do a quest, its fun for me to figure it out again.

You might be the type to use a strategy guide, but I am not.

Codes are different.
Game Genie is different.

He is talking about an equivalent of some guy asking another
"I moved here a month ago and still can't find a hookup for
green".

Quote "I secretly wish you would get raped or something. I feel like I lose IQ points everytime I look at it." Gaplemo

>You might be the type to use a strategy guide, but I am not.

Evidence of you using a strategy guide (a.k.a. Dio's)
Asking a question
http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,880524,880524#msg-880524

Where you give out Zurcon info
http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,871280,871488#msg-871488

Providing arial gear locations
http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,872323,872341#msg-872341

Asking about legacy info
http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,867678,867678#msg-867678

While this may seem like I'm being a ####, it's not intentional. I'm trying to illustrate the point that we ALL depend and use the community info to navigate the game. Allowing quest location *hints* just for the beginning of the quest is actually less info than you'll find here.

There is a difference between a localized quest in which you can potentially find all the info just by a careful eye.

It is a far different thing to search the entire game for something you do not know exists, or getting recommendations about a build that requires (to some extent) experiential knowledge that takes many hours and is based on skill (which I of course lack).

edit: and of course is not secret info.

>It is a far different thing to search the entire game for
>something you do not know exists,

Like a quest? So many won't trigger unless I'm a certain level or class or have met some other prerequisite. Am I to visit every place every level to see if I meet the criteria? There's a quest near Galadon not available until you're a certain level, but you'd never think to look there after you reach a certain point of experience because it's in a noobish area.

>or getting recommendations
>about a build that requires (to some extent) experiential
>knowledge that takes many hours and is based on skill (which I
>of course lack).

refer to above

Huh, I've got a TON of quests I've found and never had one like that. Unless you count two that require retrieving what seems to be a randomed item chosen from some list. Even those are as easy as asking mageguy "Hey buddy, can I pay you to locate ****?" (You might say, BUT WHAT IF I RAGER?!?!, to which I say not ever character should be able to finish every quest)

Haven't found a quest yet that I wasn't able to solve solo and with purely in game information, excepting some hero levels ones that I haven't even made a true attempt at.

Nothing wrong with asking other characters in game about your quest either. Try to phrase it in an RP way of course, but nothing wrong with it.

Your whole rant there seems focused on the fact that you had a hard time solving a quest and has nothing to do with FINDING them. I don't see a need for hints at where quests can be found, but I do like the idea of the level 1-10 quests being pointed out to newbies. Both a way for them to have fun and teach them about quests.

nt

"I asked my AIM buddy how to solve this quest" and things like that are why areas like Silent Tower are closed and it is extremely frustrating as a staff member to put time and effort into the game working on areas and adding quests when people just share the info like that or complain that it's "too hard."

Quests are in the game to reward and cater to the explorer types. If you don't like having to search around and figure them out, please don't do them. I'm sure you won't miss the 1k xp or whatever the reward is.

I'm not talking about giving everything away (not that you're understanding that when I said it the five previous times).

Me:
>>There were points I was frustrated enough that I went to AIM to ask for help (though no one knew the answer there either).<<

You:
>>"I asked my AIM buddy how to solve this quest" and things like that are why areas like Silent Tower are closed and it is extremely frustrating as a staff member to put time and effort into the game working on areas and adding quests when people just share the info like that or complain that it's "too hard."<<

I asked for help because, frustrated, trying by myself for so long, I was not able to solve it after awhile. No one knew the answer. And I understand your frustration, even though you're being over-reactive here. Think about it from the other side now. What's the point of having Silent Tower if information is so difficult to come by that no one can get it on their own? I don't know where Silent Tower was, I'd never been to it, and I'd have no clue where to find info on how to get into it. If there were a few hints in the wiki on how to get started in entering, would that ultimately make the game more fun for everyone? Instead, it became something that people who were willing to cheat knew about and exploited.

>Quests are in the game to reward and cater to the explorer
>types. If you don't like having to search around and figure
>them out, please don't do them. I'm sure you won't miss the
>1k xp or whatever the reward is.

If the reward is actually 1k exp I agree you can just blow that off, but when quests give out big rewards it's harder to blow them off. I know one that gives two trains, and I only know like 3 quests that you need to be above level 15 or so to complete.

My biggest thing with quests is that there's no decent way to share info about them IC, it just doesn't make sense. Sometimes it works, but I don't know if it's people just not wanting to share or actually not knowing but generally people won't really tell you anything.

Especially riddles. It completely pisses me off when people have all
the riddles answers written down and read off all the answers "in
character" before even entering the area. Especially when you have
someone along that has not been there before and would likely enjoy
the riddles.

Its different if its a death trap and your all like "dont go that
way!" But not, "The answers to the riddles are Mongoose, Pine,
Wench, and Poppycock. In that order!" That is lame and completely
ruins the experience for someone who actually enjoys Riddles and
area explore fun. Worst case scenario you try to find someone ingame
who knows something about the quest. Maybe they can help you with a
hint. I do have to agree with the Baer-Bear here. What is the point
if you didnt figure it out yourself? A hint is one thing but just
handing it to you is not the point.

That being said, I wouldnt mind knowing where more quests are to try
them. It is honestly not that easy to find quests since some are
level/align specific. I just think its a shame that there are so
many quests in the game and even a player like me that has been
playing for many years only knows a hand full of quests. Most of
which are low level. I always wondered if there was a way to make
quests more easily found that would work well with the feel of the
game but not be extremely hard for an IMP to code. But that is a
completely seperate issue entirely.

...and made the two people who hadn't solved the riddles try to solve them. It was a lot of fun. No one does that anymore (or really ever except that once). I agree with you though. The secrets of Thar Acacia are one example where the answer, in-game, was just blurted out and we were all told what to do. Sucks the fun out of it.

They dont care about RP. Honestly I wish imms would smite/realm of the dead players that pull that ####. It is really OOC. Which is against the rules.

Seriously?

1) Don't pretend you've never asked any of your friends for help with CF. And if you can do it, so can I. It's not a big deal - the most common quest rewards aren't over-powered.

2) "please don't do them"? Seriously? What kind of argument is that? I'll do them if I want, however I want. It sounds like you're going to take it personally if I ask (or anyone asks) for help on a quest. You -really- need to relax.

3) I may not have put as much long-term effort into my own campaigns as the entirety of the staff puts into the game, but I HAVE had the privilege of being the GM for a very large, week-long game of Humans Vs. Zombies. A game like HvZ involves months of preparation, mission-writing, advertising, organization and delegation (we had to create a website and software just to run the game), and, during the game, a fair amount of secrecy regarding the deployment of mission information and just general running crazy around making sure things work.

And let me say this - I am NEVER offended when someone chooses to play my game differently than I envisioned. It's not personal - variable gameplay is 100% the point of an open-ended game, so long as it's done without ruining other people's fun. So if someone isn't as hardcore a player as I was when I played, and takes some non-destructive shortcuts, who cares? At least they're playing, and this is how the hardcore player benefits. He has someone to play with.

In this case, people are choosing their own fun, without messing with other player's experiences, and for some reason, you're apt to get offended. My advice to you is - don't. Stop. Right now. Seriously. It's not going to get you anywhere, and you're missing the point. These players are having completely human reactions to being presented with an immensely open and cool world, it's going to happen all the time no matter what you say, and all of it has nothing at all to do with you.

Ex. I'm not thinking "Take that, Rayihn!" or even "Take that, Jullias!" when I ask Batman on AIM to remind me whether there need to be two runes in the rock or three.

Splntrd

Overall, I don't think the attitude of doing whatever you want however you want works well in multi-player games. Games are created to be played by rules, even if the rules may be a mutually agreed upon set of variants. When one or more players decides the rules don't apply to them and they start doing whatever they please, games fall apart. The rules themselves can't prevent cheating, only the participants can.

With the amount of time the staff has invested in creating CF, I find it reasonable for the creators to take offense when someone goes out of their way to do something that causes the game to fall apart (such as posting quest information on a forum or wiki somewhere). If you are someone who is accustomed to breaking rules, then it is not surprising that you are not offended when others do so (to act otherwise would be hypocritical). In contrast, if we as rule makers were to let it slide when players broke the rules because they didn't like them--what would that make us?

In my experience the staff has not been unreasonable about quest information. Characters take other characters on quests or locate items for them or show them how to get places--and that's fine. But going further than that goes against the spirit of the game and is not where we want it to go.

I find it interesting that another player comments that he's played the game for 10 years and is still finding quests that he didn't know about. As someone who has added what I consider fun and rare surprises to the game for people to find, I think that's a good thing. Maybe some players would like to demystify everything right away, but discovering things over time, being surprised by the game, is one small way of keeping things fresh.

>Overall, I don't think the attitude of doing whatever you
>want however you want works well in multi-player games. Games
>are created to be played by rules, even if the rules may be a
>mutually agreed upon set of variants. When one or more
>players decides the rules don't apply to them and they start
>doing whatever they please, games fall apart. The rules
>themselves can't prevent cheating, only the participants can.
>
>With the amount of time the staff has invested in creating CF,
>I find it reasonable for the creators to take offense when
>someone goes out of their way to do something that causes the
>game to fall apart (such as posting quest information on a
>forum or wiki somewhere). If you are someone who is
>accustomed to breaking rules, then it is not surprising that
>you are not offended when others do so (to act otherwise would
>be hypocritical). In contrast, if we as rule makers were to
>let it slide when players broke the rules because they didn't
>like them--what would that make us?

I'm not accustomed to breaking the rules, or even getting what I want all the time. I play a lot of games and I go the extra mile to follow within the agreed-upon bounds of play. Words with Friends is an excellent example. I play a ####-load of that Scrabble-esque game and I love the challenge of beating someone without cheating (so I never do). For CF, there is NOTHING stopping me from going out and posting exact quest information. I don't do that because that would ruin the game for others. The solution I've come up with is reasonable and people who don't want to look at it don't have to. I have a huge problem with the way the game is run because the staff who have the power and control act like elitist snobs, which irks me to no end. That is why I'm going against what you guys say. Sorry if that offends you.

>In my experience the staff has not been unreasonable about
>quest information. Characters take other characters on quests
>or locate items for them or show them how to get places--and
>that's fine. But going further than that goes against the
>spirit of the game and is not where we want it to go.

And information gleaned this way would be more information than I'm going to give out.

>I find it interesting that another player comments that he's
>played the game for 10 years and is still finding quests that
>he didn't know about. As someone who has added what I
>consider fun and rare surprises to the game for people to
>find, I think that's a good thing. Maybe some players would
>like to demystify everything right away, but discovering
>things over time, being surprised by the game, is one small
>way of keeping things fresh.

Compromise: No quest location hint on a quest younger than one year implementation.

I'm not accustomed to breaking the rules, or even getting what I want all the time.

To be fair, I wasn't replying to you.

The solution I've come up with is reasonable and people who don't want to look at it don't have to.

You don't seem bothered by your solution still being against the rules. I know that shouldn't surprise me, but it does. You have presented this as championing the cause of the underprivileged players, but how much of this is really just your own frustration with being unable to find quests?

I have a huge problem with the way the game is run because the staff who have the power and control act like elitist snobs, which irks me to no end. That is why I'm going against what you guys say.

So you're willing to cheat because you don't like us.

Sorry if that offends you.

It doesn't offend me, but it does surprise me. Unless you are misusing the term elitist, I don't understand what role you think the staff has in creating and maintaining this game.

Rewind!

I don't disagree with your overall assertions, that playing well with others is important, and that discovering things over time is a cool thing.

However, asking your friends for help with quests, while it might break some extremely liberal interpretations of the rules, isn't unfriendly to other players, and doesn't interfere with anyone's experience.

Further - taking offense at someone taking your game apart (a la Hell and Silent Tower) is justifiable. But that's hyperbole relative to what we (the players in this thread) are ACTUALLY arguing should be accepted by the staff, which is that some amount of OOC info-sharing is natural, expected, and helpful to more players than it hurts (zero).

I'm especially offended by Rayihn getting offended because it's such a LITTLE thing that nearly everyone does, including staff members. You can't convince me that the active mortal-playing staff members don't talk to each other about the game out of character. It's simple meta-gaming, everybody does it, and it's a fun part of the game.

And to be clear, again, nobody mentioned sharing anything like Hell logs.

(I should probably state also that I'm not a fan of an OOC list, but some help aiding in the discovery of quests IC would be pretty cool. I'm mostly just taking issue with the extremity of some of the arguments being made against it.)

Splntrd

>Would you be opposed to players publishing a list of quests
>and the areas (not specific rooms) where they can be found,
>and class requirements if there are any?

This is how I read this..."I don't really want to explore to FIND the quests...I want someone else to tell me where they are so I can just cruise over and DO the quest to get the shinies at the end". Part of exploration IS finding these things.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I really enjoy it when I am walking around an area and bam a mob talks to me. It really makes it an enjoyable experience. Right now I mindlessly run through fine leather/simons and a couple others.

>>Would you be opposed to players publishing a list of quests
>>and the areas (not specific rooms) where they can be found,
>>and class requirements if there are any?
>
>This is how I read this..."I don't really want to explore to
>FIND the quests...I want someone else to tell me where they
>are so I can just cruise over and DO the quest to get the
>shinies at the end". Part of exploration IS finding these
>things.
>

Zulgh, do you expect players to explore every area every five levels on the off-chance that a quest exists in one particular room? Let me quote something to refresh your memory about your game here:

From your "About" page -
"Do You Want To Explore?

It will take you a while to adventure through the 20,000+ rooms, and find the 150+ automated quests. When you finally reach hero there will still be many challenges for you to face from fighting the Ancient Dragons to challenging the Arch-Devils as you progress through the nine planes of Hell."

For argument sake, let's say half of those 20,000+ rooms are easily accessible areas for people to explore. Out of those 10,000 rooms, I'd have to find 150 quests, assuming I meet any of the criteria?

This is how I read *your* comment... "I just want myself and the imm staff to know about these quests. I don't want the game I put so much effort in to be fully enjoyed. Secrets are best kept among elites and friends of elites rather than allowing other players a piece of the pie."

Part of exploration is finding those quests, but just finding them isn't going to make it easy to "cruise" them and get shinies. The quest I did yesterday took me several hours to figure out all the answers, despite knowing exactly where it started and where some of the required parts of it were.

What exactly is it that you're fighting against here? Legacy info, items, area explore info, stats, game mechanics, etc are all talked about here, but quests, that's taboo.

Honestly, I'm already tired of this discussion. I've given you more than a chance to give blessing for it, and your reaction is a firm, "no." That's fine. I'll just put it up anyway to the degree that I see fit. If people use it, great. If not, then the game isn't affected. Your attitude is baffling and you haven't given me any convincing argument as to why the info shouldn't be shared.

WAAA its HARD to find quests and the people that do know about them are getting some crazy rewards!

not the case.

Posting quest info accomplishes one thing. It gets the quest removed. Good job.

Saying I don't accept your argument so F you I'm doing what I want? The biggest problem you have is you don't actually want to be convinced, you want everyone to agree with you because you think you're right. In this case, you're wrong about probably 95% of it, but you refuse to accept that and so throw a bit of a tantrum.

Look, I said it on the other, I'll say it here. Having a mob that might have a quest acknowledge that a quest is there might be nice. And lots of them do, sometimes they say things like come back when you're more experienced, or they snort or say something about how you're not worthy or even be gone from this place, it is not meant for such and such. I would not think it terrible if all quest mobs gave an echo or a tell when you entered a room, os you know something is there, and nothing more. Then again, lots of times the hardest part about a quest is finding them.

But to provide anything, and I mean anything more, ruins the quests for people who actually enjoy the challenge of finding and doing them. Personally, the system works just fine. If you don't know how to RP it out to get info about quests you do trigger, well I'm sorry. I've helped too many players to count with all sorts of quests. I've sent people to mobs to trigger quests as part of my RP.

You want to give out quest info, roll a bard, post a note to all saying looking for novice and experienced explorers. They come in, tell them there are a few tasks you'd like them to complete 0to show their dedication, and send them to do quests. There, you've just given out basic quest location info in an RP fashion. Maybe the imms would complain if you post the quest info in a note like applicants need to bring me quest items XYZ from mobs XYZ, but doing things IC via say/tell I don't see getting punished ever. Or maybe the Imms have never seen me do that, but somehow I think they have and have not minded. You've also allowed the information to go to those people who seek it out, while keeping it from those who do not want to know it. But I think it's not that you want to give it out, it's you want it given to you so you know all the quests too. Well I did this quest with my last, but I can't remember now, so why should I have to figure it out again?

Or is it you want to know quests so you can do them and have the fun of figuring them out. Again, a simple RP solution. ASK SOMEONE IC. Hey, I'm looking to aid the people of Thera, do you know of any tasks people might have. I get this tell, I guarantee you I'm telling you a quest starting point, no matter what level you are, so long as they are not beiin OC or douchey about it.

Posting information is such a bland and unoriginal solution to your concerns in a game where RP flexibility lets you do so much more.

I much prefer RP. Circulating something like up up down down left right left right B A start is just a terrible idea in CF.

>Posting quest info accomplishes one thing. It gets the quest
>removed. Good job.

As stated above numerous times, the idea would be to hint locations, similar to what is in the "newbie areas" helpfile. Could even be more vague, like "A man with a pegleg in Seantryn may need some help with a physical task." That would at the very least get someone started exploring the area, looking at everything. Eventually they'd find the person whom they could visit until a quest appears.

The point isn't to ruin fun. I love riddles. I love puzzles, and I love figuring them out for myself. I think it's beneficial to ALL players to have a resource to look at which gives an idea for the quest. If giving vague hints where to start a quest would have a quest removed, then what's the point of even playing CF? It would ONLY be valid if I'm in a group of evils and they all start saying, "Hey buddies, let's go do this quest. When we get there, say 'There's a cat in my pants' in Spanish! Isn't this fun?"

>Look, I said it on the other, I'll say it here. Having a mob
>that might have a quest acknowledge that a quest is there
>might be nice. And lots of them do, sometimes they say things
>like come back when you're more experienced, or they snort or
>say something about how you're not worthy or even be gone from
>this place, it is not meant for such and such. I would not
>think it terrible if all quest mobs gave an echo or a tell
>when you entered a room, os you know something is there, and
>nothing more. Then again, lots of times the hardest part about
>a quest is finding them.

This would be the compromise if there is one.

>But to provide anything, and I mean anything more, ruins the
>quests for people who actually enjoy the challenge of finding
>and doing them. Personally, the system works just fine. If you
>don't know how to RP it out to get info about quests you do
>trigger, well I'm sorry. I've helped too many players to count
>with all sorts of quests. I've sent people to mobs to trigger
>quests as part of my RP.

This is great, but no one else does that. In game, in a group, even when we all otherwise RP, there have been numerous times where people just walk up to a quest and tell me what to say. The imms would rather this happen, though, than be proactive.

>You want to give out quest info, roll a bard, post a note to
>all saying looking for novice and experienced explorers. They
>come in, tell them there are a few tasks you'd like them to
>complete 0to show their dedication, and send them to do
>quests. There, you've just given out basic quest location info
>in an RP fashion. Maybe the imms would complain if you post
>the quest info in a note like applicants need to bring me
>quest items XYZ from mobs XYZ, but doing things IC via
>say/tell I don't see getting punished ever. Or maybe the Imms
>have never seen me do that, but somehow I think they have and
>have not minded. You've also allowed the information to go to
>those people who seek it out, while keeping it from those who
>do not want to know it. But I think it's not that you want to
>give it out, it's you want it given to you so you know all the
>quests too. Well I did this quest with my last, but I can't
>remember now, so why should I have to figure it out again?
>
>Or is it you want to know quests so you can do them and have
>the fun of figuring them out. Again, a simple RP solution. ASK
>SOMEONE IC. Hey, I'm looking to aid the people of Thera, do
>you know of any tasks people might have. I get this tell, I
>guarantee you I'm telling you a quest starting point, no
>matter what level you are, so long as they are not beiin OC or
>douchey about it.

I'd like to know the puzzle exists so I can figure out how to solve it. That's fun to me.

>Posting information is such a bland and unoriginal solution to
>your concerns in a game where RP flexibility lets you do so
>much more.

You're writing on the "gameplay" boards. I haven't looked you up, but I'm sure you've used the "bland and unoriginal" information here and it didn't ruin your fun.

>I much prefer RP. Circulating something like up up down down
>left right left right B A start is just a terrible idea in
>CF.

Never said I was doing that.

This is how I read *your* comment...

This is a non sequitur; unless you have some hidden context for this comment, I don't see how it can rationally follow from Zulghinlour's reply. If you actually believe what you've written here then I have no doubt why you are baffled by the response you're getting; you're arguing against a strawman of your own construction.

Your attitude is baffling and you haven't given me any convincing argument as to why the info shouldn't be shared.

As far as I can see you haven't made a cogent argument to the contrary. You've made a lot of assertions (e.g., this will encourage exploration!), but you haven't supported them.

Case in point: thief points. Thief points are transparent and there are STILL speculations about characters with them. I have more fun with thieves now that I can fantasize about various builds.

And we're not even talking about anything past the point of quest introduction. To specifically address your comment about not supporting my ideas:
>>You've made a lot of assertions (e.g., this will encourage exploration!), but you haven't supported them.<<
ex. "There's a man with a glass eye in Udgaard looking for mystical practitioners to undertake a task for him. Don't bother seeking him out unless you can kill a troll with your bare hands."
A hint like that would let me know I'd have to be some kind of mage in the 17-22 range. I would also have to EXPLORE the city to find a man with a glass eye. Clear enough?

So what did you do when you've ever played any game that gave you information? Did you load Bard's Tale III on your Tandy, see that the game started with a person giving you a bunch of information and say, "F*** this! The game is ruined now that I know I have to go explore the catacombs!"

I understood what you meant prior to this. I was looking for support, not clarification. I don't happen to think your idea supports exploration at all; I think it shifts players away from exploration and toward quests.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Djinn City has no quests in it. Under your plan, a player receives no hint of there being a quest there. Is he now more or less likely to explore the area? Let's revise that: he now has a hint that someone in the palace needs help. Alright, now is he more or less likely to explore the area? He's likely to explore the palace and ignore the rest.

I don't think you've encouraged exploration at all; rather, you've focused players on searching for quests rather than exploring.

That's what I'm talking about when I say support.

> Let's revise that: he now has a hint
>that someone in the palace needs help. Alright, now is he
>more or less likely to explore the area? He's likely to
>explore the palace and ignore the rest.
>


Interesting point


as an aside:
"Tell me if you ever want to go walking in the mountains" (or words to that effect)
Is this anything? Because it's certain driven me batsh*t.

I think that NPC is merely being polite. But that might make for a good expansion quest...

Man, that one drove me nuts too.

>I understood what you meant prior to this. I was looking for
>support, not clarification. I don't happen to think your idea
>supports exploration at all; I think it shifts players away
>from exploration and toward quests.
>
>Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Djinn City has
>no quests in it. Under your plan, a player receives no hint
>of there being a quest there. Is he now more or less likely
>to explore the area? Let's revise that: he now has a hint
>that someone in the palace needs help. Alright, now is he
>more or less likely to explore the area? He's likely to
>explore the palace and ignore the rest.

Does the quest limit itself to only involving the palace in Djinn City? Questing and exploration are not mutually exclusive. In CF, there's a lowbie quest involving an area surrounded by water. The *initial* quest-triggering mob is standing outside the entrance. The quest itself is brilliantly designed (and kudos to whomever coded it). You still have to explore the ENTIRE area to complete the quest from beginning to end, which never would have been done if you didn't think there'd be some kind of reward at the end.

Think about the introduction of exploration and observation experience, along with their potential rewards (edge points, skills). Has the overall willingness of the playerbase to explore increased or decreased since getting rewards for that was added? People want the perks.

>I don't think you've encouraged exploration at all; rather,
>you've focused players on searching for quests rather than
>exploring.

Based on your Djinn City example, the problem lies with the scope of the quest, not the quest-taker. As an area coder, you should want people to find your neat things, to appreciate all the hard work you put into something. Granted, based on my obvious vitriol, you might think I'm trying to trivialize the work the staff has put in, but it's the opposite. Quests are cool and fun to figure out and they're usually a solo thing. All I want is to know where a good place to start looking and I can figure it out from there. I know other people feel the same way.

Lastly, OOC mechanisms like this list I'm going to make and publish (elsewhere) serve as a standardization. Everyone gets the same hint. Yeah, I can ask about things IC, but the responses vary by player. Some may feel the need to take me and show me. Some may give me hints before I'm ready to ask for them. Some may just be blatantly OOC and tell me exactly what to do, ruining my fun. This list would make people more independent.

Out of the modicum of respect that I do have for you all, I'll send a copy to the staff before I'm ready to publish. If I receive no reply, I'll publish as is. If you wish to suggest some edits, ask something be taken out, reword things, whatever, I'd be happy to oblige (within reason). Fair enough?

For ruining the current quest system.

Since your going to be a spoiled cry baby punk ass and go ahead with something that the staff obviously doesn't want you to do. This is about how the whole thread breaks down:

Baron: "Hi, I would like a list of the quests in the game so I can find them."
Staff: "No, that is information to be found in game. In the spirit of OUR game."
Baron: **Thinly veiled attempt to make it seem as if it is in the interest of new players**
Staff: "No, here are the reasons..."
Baron: "BOOOOO HOOOOO IM GOING TO POST THE LIST ANYWAY"

I don't understand where your sense of entitlement comes from. It's bad enough when you see garbage like this on forums for games the customer PAYS for, but Carrion Fields is free. You have no say in how it is run. You don't like it? I IMPLORE you to leave before you ruin it for the rest of us who DO like it.

You are your own person though. Do what you want. When they remove/change all the quests, it will jut give me something new to find and have fun with or forget existed.

Also you're a jackass for your last line.

Nobody wants your stupid list except you.

A few comments:

(1) If my argument is weak, you are welcome to refute it; currently, you have not done so. In an area without any quests, your scheme actively discourages exploration. In an area with quests that don't involve exploration of the whole area (e.g., to to this foreign city and kill the mayor) you again discourage exploration of that initial area. At the very least your scheme does not encourage exploration at all; your hope is that the quests themselves will encourage exploration. That doesn't support your argument.

(2) You have yet to demonstrate that there is anything actually broken with the current system. You have presupposed brokenness because other people have found more quests than you.

(3) I fail to see how you are demonstrating respect for us by ignoring what every staff member has said in this post and doing the exact opposite.

(4) Regrettably, if you go through with this plan, we will probably see quests start to disappear. I cannot speak for the rest of the staff, but I didn't design quests to run this way, so I would have no qualms with removing my quests from the game. I can also say that belligerence of this nature discourages me from wanting to spend time writing code for CF.

(1) I was refuting your argument. I am sorry if you see my counter-arguments as weak.

(2) For the record, nothing is broken. Things can be improved. I will do that.

(3) The respect comes from me sending you what I'll post and still asking for input before I publish. Your failure to see me as a peer and instead treating me like a sycophantic underling is your own doing. As a fan of this game, I can publish whatever I want whenever I want. However, I choose to censor myself somewhat in this regard because I don't want to ruin it for everyone.

(4) This one just makes me chuckle. You didn't design quests to... be found? This is just a childish statement no matter how you word it. It will be sad to lose you, though. Out of curiosity, why DO you code quests? I was under the assumption that if you code something, you'd want someone to get use out of it. It's no fun for me to make something I think people will enjoy, but the one player who found it does it over and over again without sharing the information.

If you continue down this road of doing things the staff is specifically asking you not to do, and going against rules that we maintain, you will be banned. That is all there is to it.

Your failure to see me as a peer and instead treating me like a sycophantic underling is your own doing.

You got the first part of this assertion correct; I don't view you as a peer. I am baffled that you would even expect this--in the context of CF, you have no direct voice in the decision making of the game. I'm sorry if that feels hurtful to you, but that's reality. You don't create areas, run quests, write code, balance skills, or administer the game in any shape or form. How exactly are you a peer?

I haven't treated you like a sycophant anywhere in this discussion. I think have also been fairly patient with you.

You didn't design quests to... be found?

I did design them to be found. There is no finding in your scheme.

This is just a childish statement no matter how you word it.

I think I have been civil in this discussion; if you can muster some of that modicum of respect you referenced to demonstrate the same civility, it would be appreciated.

It will be sad to lose you, though.

I suspect it will make no difference to you.

Out of curiosity, why DO you code quests?

This has been discussed at length elsewhere. I view this game through the perspective of a former AD&D player and find a lot of value in discovering things on my own. My goal is to reward players to do the same.

There are two key differences that creating a "quest list" brings into the picture that I am uncomfortable with.

1) It's push vs. pull. When you're looking at how information is dispersed, this is a big difference. It's one thing to be interested in quest X, and have to go out looking for information about it. While I'd like to think that's all IC, I'm not naive enough to think this is the case. However, even if you use OOC means, it's still you pulling the information from sources to answer your question. This is different than a public website or helpfile where you're handed a "shopping list" of quest information. Even in your example, you asked Batman about a specific aspect of a quest you were already working with. That's different than a pushed list of a bunch of quests you didn't even know existed.

2) Social networks have holes and groups. So, if "clique A" knows about quest X, Y, and Z, and "clique B" knows about quest R, S, and X, at least everybody doesn't know everything about all the quests. While diffusion through social networks will probably eventually leak everything to most people, it takes a long time. The time factor plays into the balance and worth of the quest, when we're creating it. If it gets instantly spread to a much larger percentage of the people, then from our standpoint, it's a) not much fun to write quests and b) the rewards may no longer be game balanced.


Also note that even if your argument is to list the starting points of quests, #2 then interacts with #1. (Ie, then you have a shopping list of things to start asking about.)

>>Also note that even if your argument is to list the starting points of quests, #2 then interacts with #1. (Ie, then you have a shopping list of things to start asking about.)<<

If that's how you choose to play, then that's how you choose to play. Stop playing the "Father knows best" card and let the players decide for themselves how much they want to know. I think it's reasonable to expect the status quo won't change by much.

"Stop playing the 'Father knows best' card and let BaronMySoul decide for the game how much they want to know."

But I'm not. People who don't want to know about it don't have to read about it.

nt

What if you published your social security number and credit card number, and people who don't want to use that information to steal from you don't have to?

Sometimes the genie is out of the bottle and that's all there is to it.

Immortals don't want that info out.

Historical events:

They didn't want wand info out.
Wand info went out.
Wands got changed.
Many players suffered.

-------------------------------------

Why do you think this situation is different?

>Immortals don't want that info out.
>
>Historical events:
>
>They didn't want wand info out.
>Wand info went out.
>Wands got changed.
>Many players suffered.
>
>-------------------------------------
>
>Why do you think this situation is different?

For the same reason that the current wand system is infinitely better, more inclusive, and the knowledge isn't held by the minority rather than the majority. You can disagree with that statement if you like, but now everyone has different wand locations. Wands are harder to hoard, and the game didn't explode.

I realize that I'm the *ONLY* person arguing really damn passionately about this issue. That's why half the responses here are by me trying (and failing apparently) to convince you all that information sharing in a reasonable tone and manner is a good thing. Thing is, I don't see what the overreaction is all about. People want to explore and find content on their own, that's perfect. If after all that exploring, they think they've found everything there is to find, this will nudge them in the right direction to explore further. Ancient Instincts is a good example of this. I've got all but about 5 or 6 of them and have dedicated whole character lives just to figuring out where those last ones are. Can't find 'em. I would absolutely love a hint as to where to look without having to traverse the map yet again only to come up empty.

What about making it so you could say no to certain quests, I hate that if I accidently walk into the room with certain mobs I'm automatically put on a quest I won't do. Then I forever see the failure in my list.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Mechanically, saying no would probably also be flagged as a failure.