This goes out to the players and immortals:

There needs to be something done about the state of grouping. For two years I've logged in dozens of characters and encountered the same problem:

I ask: "Want to travel together?"

I get:
"Busy"
"I'm training for a while"

The problem has grown exponentially worse. At this point I've probably been told a couple hundred times by low level warriors that they're not interested in grouping because they'd rather solo.


What gives? Why isn't the experience incentive enough to group?

>This goes out to the players and immortals:
>What gives? Why isn't the experience incentive enough to
>group?

You assume everyone always wants to gain levels. They don't.

True, but as someone who plays alot of warriors. I wind up solo ranking till my late 20's alot just because I want to get my skills up first. Group skill up bonus could definately use a boost if you want to avoid that.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

My faith was strong, but I needed proof. I was under the impression that fighting classes were intentionally avoiding groups to raise skills. These guys echo my sentiment.


Is there some way to make skill gains quicker with groups? This single issue is what has been preventing me from rolling characters. The game is so much fun at levels 30+... Getting there isn't.

Honestly, I wouldn't group more than I do now even with 10x skill gains.

But maybe that's not everybody.

< 5 Svirf Thi> Raumilblotz the Cur
< 6 Fire War> Ankhra the Footman
< 2 D-Elf Asn> Xalith the Tori
< 6 Elf Tra> Acajou the Advanced Spell Student
< 4 Felar A-P> Kirmirr the Brute
< 4 Human Asn> Retsel the Yellow Belt
* 5 Human Con* (PK) Rgorng the Advanced Spell Student

Players found: 7


You tell Raumilblotz 'Care to travel?'
You tell Xalith 'Care to travel?'
You tell Kirmirr 'Care to travel?'
You tell Retsel 'Care to travel?'
You tell Ankhra 'Care to travel?'


Raumilblotz tells you 'Busy.'
Xalith tells you 'Not at the miubte.

The rest don't reply. Same as yesterday. Same as always. I log off and play Heroes of Newerth.

I don't want to solo level.

I take it you don't particularly like doing quests, then.

There's a lot more of them that I enjoy doing than I can actually do on a lowbie character, unless I intentionally mobdie a half-dozen times.

Alternately, if you're really against solo leveling, you might not want to pick a character that for the first half or so levels is a very unattractive groupmate. You also might want to not pick a character that people aspiring to half the cabals in the game need to kill rather than group with.

Basically I think if I provide better grouping incentives what's going to happen is all those warriors who won't group with you will group with each other and still not you.

I know I personally don't group until level 10 just so I can do the academy quest and boot quest at least. Other people won't group until they have done more.

I have had several low rank groups break up as soon as we hit rank 9 so that they can go and do those quests on their own.

The abundance of lowbie quests give you something to do when there is no group but they also give people reasons to not group.

Here's what you do:

You level to 3 or 4 in the academy. Soloing there is the fastest you will ever gain Exp probably. At level 1 you get 100exp per round of combat, basically. And it's worth levelling to 5 there because it's so fast and easy except...

The thing is, nobody groups at level 5 or below, and precious few bother at 7 or 8 and it's not about skills, it's because getting to those levels is so easy.

So you do the academy quest which will get you to level 7.

Congratulations. Now I hate solo-leveling too. I think it's an obnoxious waste of time. But... you can level to 9 pretty easily at the seaport and run into hamsah to barter healing for the stupid stuff they drop.

Then, if you care about the character, you spend a few hours grinding explore/obs exp. It's stupid and boring, but you basically have to do it anyway for the edge points... unless you know that your role/rp/pk is going to get you those points when you need them. That'll be about 10k exp. You do this at level 9 so you can recall.

Then you go do the (no longer) happy boots quest. That's close to two levels. It's tedious, but pretty quick.

Okay now you discuss and cash in your 10k exp.

Like nep says there's tons of quests out there you *could* do if you just luckily manged to stumble or them, or you're a lunatic and love running around into every room in the game and killing every mob you can every level just to see if maybe you can get a quest out of it. However even I know about 12k worth of quests you can do around then, and I hate ####ing around at low levels.

Anyhow, at this point you're level 11 maybe 12. Now you log on, beg people to travel and quit if there's nobody to join.

Eventually you power to 51, spend 100 hours looking for your wands, can't find them, and then realize that as caballed mage without ABS you are completely useless and delete.

Enjoy!

That's unusually cynical for you.

>That's unusually cynical for you.

Yeah, it's probably more cynical than I really feel. I'm sick, my 3 month old is fussy because she got a shot today and I can't find my goddamned wands. Life sucks pout pout whine whine.

kind of means you won't be doing those quests.

And not playing an unattractive groupmate is like saying 'hey, the game is only accessible to these types of people so tough luck, play something else'. Sure people can play warrior/ranger/assassin #87 in a row but that isn't very dynamic for the player or for the game.

There is no strong incentive to group ranking and that is a shame and disservice to roleplay or meeting new characters in game.

>There is no strong incentive to group ranking and that is a
>shame and disservice to roleplay or meeting new characters in
>game.

A bad group nets you exp around three times the rate you would get solo, and a good group gets you much more. For characters that can naturally both tank and do damage the incentive is less, but even for them, they should benefit just from having other people do damage.

Really what you're saying is that there isn't a strong incentive to gain exp quickly, and that is kinda true. It's less true than it used to be, with skill learn and all that, but it's definitely still the case that most of the classes that can tank are also the classes least interested in gaining levels fast. The exception is basically defensive shifters.

"most of the classes that can tank are also the classes least interested in gaining levels fast."

Which is a game design issue which I'd love to see addressed

I hate that skill learn is so random. I've had characters hit it two or three times in a row. But then I've also gone six or seven levels without it hitting at all.

Excluding maybe evade and definitely assassinate, skill learn should just give the bonus to whatever it is you're trying to skill learn.

With the melee classes that I play, I tend not to want to join groups because I'm trying to learn not-essential-for-ranking skills. When I join groups, I tend to expect everyone to be productive and pulling their weight. I don't want that invoker spamming stoneshatter on unaffected mobs, or bards spamming elbow for grazes, or warriors training weapons other than their specialization.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate skill learn. It's a nice bonus sometimes. But other times it can be frustrating at best. It is definitely not something to rely on. And it is definitely not an incentive to want to level up, when I could be fighting weaker mobs to learn the things that will later be essential for my character development and success.

I reached the conclusion that quest gear was inferior to regular gear for my slew of conjurers. If I invest the time I would normally spend solo questing towards interacting with high level people and role-playing, I'll get better gear in less time.


Quests don't give skill %s.

The only incentive for me to quest is the easy explore / observational exp they give (towards edges).

There are solutions to your problem (e.g. quests, playing a character people will actually want to group with, etc.) and you're aware of them and could make use of them, but choose not to.

That's fine, but I'm probably not going to spend any of my time on efforts to accomodate you.

(Especially since what you're asking for probably wouldn't actually help your situation.)

>There are solutions to your problem (e.g. quests, playing a
>character people will actually want to group with, etc.) and
>you're aware of them and could make use of them, but choose
>not to.


Logical Fallacy. The truth is that people aren't grouping because of skill %'s, and I'm not willing to solo level. It's boring.

I never EVER have a problem finding groups.

EVER.

EVER.

I added those last two for emphasis.

If you can't find warriors to group with at rank 15-25, don't cry. There are MANY other classes that are suitable ranking partners at those ranks. If you find a muter, even if you have two offense shifters, you can still rank fairly easily.

If you find a bard, anything can be a tank.

I don't think it's as hard as he is saying. But I also don't think it's as easy as what you're saying.

First, let's assume there are actually people in your group range. Logged in at a peak time, I did a who group and found 9 people who could group with a level 15.

Next we have to start scratching off people we know for a fact we can not group with. I'm a goodie, and I see an orc, dark-elf warrior, human necromancer and a fire AP. That eliminates 4/9. Now we come across the questionables. There is a half-drow and a human in range. That means if I want a group, I have to initiate some sort of conversation with them to determine if they are viable options (for some people, this is a deterrent). Now I see a gnome and a svirf. I know I can group with them. But does my character have any moral dilemmas about joining with them? Maybe they are Nexuns? Maybe I'm a dwarf and they want to be Outlanders. There are some definite conflicts of interest that could be taken into account here. So let's say one more is eliminated because of this. Now I'm down to two possible groupmates, who just by race/class seem suitable. Now I have to reinvent one of the tired methods of trying to ask them to slay zombies with me...because I know if I just ask "Do you want to travel", they will probably think I am lame and either ignore me because it seems like I'm not putting in any effort or they end up making some excuse not to want to travel.

When there were 50+ players around all the time, finding a group was relatively easy, especially if you were a little suave. But now most people have other interests. They want to explore at low levels to maximize edge points. They want to PK. They want to perfect skills. And while I haven't personally seen a whole lot of this last one, some people prefer to roleplay and develop their character more slowly.

On the other hand, I saw a Dwarf get inducted into Fortress and powerlevel to hero in a span of about 3 days.

In conclusion: Its possible to rank up quickly, but this is likely only feasible if you're an optimal groupmate, or you get lucky and things just match up well for you. But more often than not, ranking can be a daunting chore for sub-optimal race/class/align choices.

And I've certainly fought dozens of them.

Listen, I'm not going to lie and say people playing at 2AM-6AM EST aren't going to have a rough time finding any groupmates. However, if you play from 12PM-12AM EST, if you can't find a group, something is wrong with you.

Ranking never seems like a chore to me, unless I am relentlessly power-ranking. Then it does feel like a major grind, because all I am doing is mowing down mobs over and over again.

Most of the time when I log on, I look at my range and know within moments if I can get a great group and get 4-6 ranks, a good group and get 2-4, or a crappy group and get 1-3. Or I notice there are no group-mates, and I decide to PK, get gear, RP at the Inn or with my cabal, solo-rank, gather preps, etc, etc, etc.

I'm getting ####ing sick of people complaining about #### that isn't a god damn problem. You wanna know what the problem with CF is? It's a whole bunch of people who don't give a damn about making this a better game. They only care about making the game better for them. It pisses me the #### off that a vocal minority are painting a picture of this game that some ####ing newbie will read and decide that this game sucks and is too hard. And that they are going to get griefed by anyone and everyone. And the funniest thing is the people complaining/crying about this the most are usually the people DOING THE GRIEFING.

Rant over.

I have no idea why you're responding to my post with a rant. I posted a legitimate experience of mine that happened within the last three days. It was absolutely at a peak time of the game (the count was somewhere in the 40s).

You speak of ranking nonchalantly, as if it isn't one of the biggest factors of the game. The things that make up CF are PK, ranking and roleplaying. You can't have a summary of CF without mentioning those things.

It has been my experience since the beginning of when I started CF, that suboptimal race/class/align have a harder time finding groups (for a multitude of reasons). I can think of plenty of combinations that meet my criteria of suboptimal. If a poll were taken, I'd probably get a few people who disagree (people like daurwyn and isildur), but the majority would agree with my assessment of suboptimal.

For what its worth, ranking isn't one of my gripes. But at least I don't wear rose-colored glasses for anything CF. I understand that CF is a difficult game, and that ranking can be one of those things. Ranking has come a long ways since I started playing, so maybe that gives me greater perspective. But it might still suck to someone who has only known ranking in its current capacity. For as much improved as the actual ranking is, there are still several factors that need to be taken into account--some or many of which have come to light in this thread.

Rant still stands though.

I imagine some parts of the globe have to play with a smaller playerbase.

That said, I rarely struggle to find a group until I'm close to hero, at which point there's a good chance everyone else has heroed.

Quests don't give skill %s

That's not true, some do. Wish more did though, especially for evils.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Quests do give skill %, and some of the quest gear, while niche, is better than a lot of the other gear.

A certain pair of bracers for example is very nice for dealing with stat loss, not to mention the healing pills being handy.

AFAIK there is no skill up bonus quest that evil's can participate in. Rather unfortunate if you ask me.

They exist.

I think hes talking more like the ones you get massive skillup bonuses, like 15%, rather than the random 3% ones.

But if that's what Scar meant, then holy #### I'm terrible! Since I mostly play evils and I've never seen it.

gr

I get not wanting to solo level. At those ranks, though, it's so trivial for almost any class to do. Using quests if necessary.

I personally don't group at those levels because if I do, I'll miss the chance to do certain quests I want to do (because I like the gear).

You can pretty much level off quests alone over those ranks, and if you stop to rank on mobs, you're doing so at the expense of a quest or two.

Probably isn't a good idea when the difference in experience between even you and I is vast, let alone anyone who has come to his game within the past year or two.

Honestly, I would group much more with higher skill gains in groups. That is the main reason I solo level usually from 15-25 with a warrior. Your skills at that low of a level are critical in landing a pk.

I think waywicket's point and the point that ORB and I are trying to make are fairly different. Since we are talking about entirely different level brackets.

It just mainly seems to be a problem with melee tanking classes getting defenses up to PK or Tank in a group. I just would rather be tanking in a group and skills would go up naturally quickly so I stop tanking with my face in a ranking group (maybe only up to a certain threshold would it go up quickly, say 90%). As opposed to grinding away, working on defenses solo.

Your skills will go up in a group at levels 15-25.

What's funny, is that before some people were complaining it was too hard to find groups and rank. So Zulg made solo-ranking much easier to make it better for those players/characters.

Now some people are complaining it's too easy to solo-rank, and they can't find groups.

It's like a ####ing Abbott and Costello routine.

>I just would rather be tanking in a group and skills would go up naturally quickly so I stop tanking with my face in a ranking group (maybe only up to a certain threshold would it go up quickly, say 90%)<

Last time I played a melee orientated character that decided to forego soloing for a while (post 15+, because honestly, if you can't get to 15 solo in around 10 hrs trying to rank, I don't know what's wrong with you), I really didn't have a problem with skill gains while ranking. I ####ing mastered entwine in 2 levels and about 45 minutes for Christ's sake. Entwine of all things. And that was before skill learn came in. I also had second/third attack, parry and dodge all in the high 80s (I think I had the attacks mastered because I didn't always tank).

That being said, it is not as easy for a mage class to tank.

You do realize I was talking about rank 15-30 not lvl 32 (when you get entwine) also that could be depend on what race you are as well as RNG. So its not really about that.

It is about how when I group rank, I get 3x experience but that also means I get about 1/3 of the skill gains. It just happens to work out that way.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but this is false. If you are in a group, you are able to fight tougher mobs. Fighting tougher mobs gives you faster skill gains. Right?

You parry less & dodge less against high level mobs.
So I would say it is much worse to learn defenses against higher level mobs. Because you tank with your face.

Even if you are learning better in general against higher level mobs. It doesnt change that you are parrying & dodging less.

as a melee class if you act as your groups primary tank to rank 25-30 you should have most if not all of your defenses in the 90's even with a low int race like a fire giant or orc.

It might require a bit of patience but its not as slow as solo ranking. And if you use skill learn effectively ranking actually facilitates skill perfection.

So even if you spend less actual time fighting, you are getting more out of the time you are actually fighting.

That's about my experience as well.

Granted, that may mean you take your group to mobs that are a little above you and not a lot above you so you spend more time fighting and less time tanking with your face.

nt

>That's about my experience as well.
>
>Granted, that may mean you take your group to mobs that are a
>little above you and not a lot above you so you spend more
>time fighting and less time tanking with your face.

LIES! Tanking with your face is a tried and true method of fighting for orcs. It gives you more opportunity for biting them.

I don't suppose that'd be any argument for automatic grapple weapon, hunh? >

As you block X's clubbing with your face, you pry the weapon from his hand with your teeth!

>Is there some way to make skill gains quicker with groups? This single issue is what has been preventing me from rolling characters. The game is so much fun at levels 30+... Getting there isn't.<

YOU DO GAIN SKILLS QUICKER WITH GROUPS. Dear Lord...first of all, with groups, you can kill tougher mobs quicker. Which raises your morale. Which increases your chances of skill learning (which is also helped by the tougher mobs). I'm not sure how much clearer it can be.

I rank solo often from 1-25. Other than rare cases, it has nothing to do with skill %'s and the like. It has to do with getting a feel for my character. Getting a feel for their RP. Getting a feel for what works in PK and what doesn't work. Not having to rank with characters that will disappear because let's face it, I'd daresay 80% of all characters under 30 won't make it to hero.

I can do this in usually 50 hours. During that time, I often finish multiple quests, flesh out my role, get a decent midbie set, get several skills in the high 80s, get in multiple PKs, and try to join a cabal.

I've also power-ranked several shifters to 51 in under 50 hours (because honestly, I just want to see my final forms)

I honestly think ranking is TOO EASY these days. It's absurd. There's hardly ever anyone who even attacks my ranking groups these days until I get close to hero and cherry-pickers want to kill the weak level 45 guy. It gets frustrating to me that there are dozens of characters on the battlefield who got into a cabal and hit hero range in under 50 hours. It took my 170 hrs to hero my first character on CF, and that felt like an accomplishment. Getting attacked everytime I tried to rank. Fighting in massive group battles where things were so chaotic I just kept spamming pincer. I was proud of that accomplishment. Now, it's just hoe hum, I'll hero this weekend in 25 hours.

You say the game is so much fun at rank 30+. I disagree with you. I think the IMMs have done an amazing job making this game enjoyable from rank 1 to rank 51.

What's funny, is you don't want to put in the 25 or so hours needed to get to rank 30, so what reason would we have to expect you'd stick with a character longer than 30 hours after that. And to say something like 'This is the reason I don't roll characters' is just like saying after drinking bad vodka that you don't like Russians.

If you want to just play at 51, find a POS MUD. They are great for that. I myself have played POS exclusively for months at a time because I find myself often needed a recharge or just want to #### around at hero for a bit.

I don't know you. I don't know your characters. For all I know you don't even play CF and you're just trying to trash it for some unknown reason.

If you gave up some CF examples on how you've been frustrated, I'm sure there are loads of people that would give you advice.

How much importance is being placed on getting your skills up?

I know certain people think my last character sucked, but I didn't have entwine/choke/eyejab over 78% or so until I hit hero range. I took whip/flail first. Those skills still worked just as often as I'd expect if I had them mastered.

Skills aren't everything people. Odds are the RNG is going to go your way or not regardless over whether or not you have 85% or 99%.

I understand why people harp on skills though. I really do. I'd be willing to bet if you took 100 artery's by a guy with 75% and 100 artery's by a guy with 100%, there would only be a 5-10 range difference.

The thing is, is that mastered skill is peace of mind. And I do get that. You are loathe to try a skill that you have at 76% because you have this idea that if it doesn't work, it's because the skill was at 76% and not mastered. But like I said, your #### still fails when mastered. ALL THE TIME. RNG is a cruel mistress, but she is fair to all.

boooyakashaw

I think part of the problem is that there doesnt seem to be an inherent boost to skill gains (or a big enough one) when grouping with others to give warriors a reason to group with a mage or any class that has to work on defenses of any sort.

Also, I've noticed that against high level mobs defenses dont seem to go up very fast (as opposed to ones slightly higher). Because you are pretty much tanking with your face...and the skill doesnt go up because you are dodging/parrying less against the higher level mob.

That is the reason why I usually have to solo level my warriors or assassins for a while in order to get them up to snuff. Starting around lvl 15 and sometimes even before then.

I think it would be good to give a slight boost to skill learns in a group. In addition to the normal benefits of fighting in a group (higher morale, higher level mobs, etc.). Just see how it plays out. Just my opinion though. You guys do the game balance stuff.

-Zephon

Edit: Yeah, what orb said...but longer...

Not everyone wants to power level to 51. If one of my characters says "no", it's because they are doing something fun besides ranking.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing a bigger bonus in place for skill learning while grouped. I know they implemented one a while back, but my rangers are still far more advanced skill wise that spend much of their time alone than the ones that group all the time.

EDIT: Also, what the other guy said. You don't need a warrior to rank. Any three will do. You just aren't necessarily going to get 1k exp per kill or anything. I think the bigger problem is the people who will only join the ideal group or a three man group. Don't ask me for a group and then decide not to rank when we can't find a third.

nt

It's possible to rank decently with a group of almost anything these days, if you pick the right places.

Sure. But some groups are obviously more efficient than others. So if I'm a guy who hates ranking and wants to minimize the time I have to spend doing it, and if I'm playing a character that has stuff he can do besides rank, then I'm going to do "other stuff" when there isn't an optimal group available.

If I'm a transmuter and two other transmuters ask me to group with them to go rank then I'm probably saying 'hell no'. Even if I'm looking to gain levels.

A group of three muters would be VERY good, in fact. I kid you not. You would probably be able to fight without stopping to rest. Certainly as a muter I was able to solo duergar in Aran Gird without wands, and if I was with two others I reckon I could take down at least four before someone else took the fore and I fought while slowed instead. By the time they're needing to swap out I'd probably be healed up and ready to tank again.

Worst case scenario you'd still be doing six before taking a very short rest (since you'd all be slowed).

It was just an example. Apparently a poor one. Pick the crappiest three-person group you can imagine, then substitute that into my previous post.

People need to realise the capabilities of some of the other classes (e.g. muters).

No one really considers them as a potential tank, and yet in the right places, one dex-based muter in your group can enable good ranking (post metabolic unity, that is).

3 Trannies + 3 mino mercenaries (or any other pet) = Super absurd ranking. No joke. From levels 20whatever to 35 or so.