Numbers are so low, at the moment it's taking up 13 players that could be better distributed elsewhere. All the cabals have their nemesis... outtie v trib, battle v nexus, and empire v fort. But scion is the random wildcard that was meant for the elite.

We are rapidly lacking in those players, and some of the recent scions make me sick to think about the bar that was set for them when I started playing them.

I'm not saying it's ideal... Because I have multiple Scion builds I've been wanting to try and know I could make look very strong, but I think it would really bolster the numbers of other cabals and make cabal wars more intense.

We just don't have the numbers for Scion anymore. We need to move forward and make the game more fun... especially when there's not even an IMM to look out for it.

I really hope you consider the Pro's and Con's of it, cause aside from letting go of something that's proven to be really great, it will be worth it in the end I believe... and we could always open it back up again someday if players permit.

The problem is that this is the outcome of the strict anti-Team Evil roleplay code which has evolved in CF over the last couple of years.

The roleplay environment has swapped from Team Good being constantly swamped and ganged down by overly co-operative Evils, to one where no one can really has fun playing WITH other evils. Instead, all evils are pitted against each other or in heavy competition with them for cabal spots.

Was it better before? Probably not. Is it better now? Definitely not. Is there a happy medium? Most certainly, but it's up to the players to figure out how to be Team Evil without breaking RP and without being Team Douchebag That No One Wants to Play.

Ever since I started playing this game the coolest cabal I think is Scion hands down. Every cabal has its ups and downs, when a crap leader runs the cabal with no imms leading it is destined for failure. Watch when Mharl deletes I bet the cabal explodes with lots of app's/members, well lots for scion anyway. Not trying to hate on Mharl to much but I believe he is the reason behind this, his app process is not very rp related, for some reason he doesn't like interacting with other players imo on a rp level and shrugs off all interaction and whats a lvl 20 shapeshifter to do when Mharl tells him to kill a lvl 25 warrior village app with a char that dies in one round to warriors at that lvl. I just think if he rp'd more with apps and turned his app process more into a role / rp game instead of a oh I saw your log on dios you looked like you know what your doing I'll invite you type of interview process it would be better. The imm's show him love, his evil drow rp is good imo when he isn't performing his power tantrums to other cabal mates.

With my necro I could last about 6 rounds against most warriors at that level. You can get a pretty nice +hp set just by paying heroes for good but non-limited items.

Then you can get a couple of wands and see about surprising the warrior when he's hurt.

If he's a village ap and anything other than human-size, you can remove his ability to permalag you and pretty much ensure your escape.

For example:
- get yourself a +hp suit. Gold is usually enough to accomplish this. Lots of heroes will kill a mob for you in return for 20 gold, provided you're not asking them to put themselves at risk.
- get yourself a way to minimise the chances of permalag (e.g. reduce, enlarge)
- remove other obvious sources from the lag equation unless you want to be lagged. For example, if you want to zap said rager with a wand, you might not want to be flying, but most (not all) ragers will trip in such a way that you can still zap them every 2 rounds, hence their trip is accomplishing very little.
- don't fight at a place where you might find it hard to flee. i.e. don't fight at the massive giant or the entrance to a guild.
- find some wands and get hold of them. They are out there. I'm not talking sleeks, but rather some limited ones. If you have to, pay another high level mage for some. There's a good chance they have other wands they can use so don't mind chucking you the stuff they used back when they were low level, in return for some gold.

If you assume that the task is impossible, I would argue that you don't have the right mentality for scion, which is, perhaps, why the cabal leader is doing this kind of induction process.

One of the other MU*s I worked on for several years became under new administration and the old slowly left. The new admins had the idea to force the playerbase to consolidate. This meant closing cabals, guilds, taking away the ability to choose certain cities as starting areas, etc. Having experienced the effects of closing options available to players I strongly disagree with doing such. I will always support the choice to provide -more- options to players and not forcing consolidation. More religions, more cabals, even more guilds and races would be idea imo.

Just my 2 cents.

-----------------
"My view of Borkahd IC"
If you anger him, he'll rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skin into his clothing. And if you're very, very lucky, he'll do it in that order. ~Twist

I also think that removing portions of the game in order to force people to consolidate is a horrible idea. I haven't experienced it myself, but I've always been against the idea of removing areas/cabals in order to cramp people up into smaller space.

Also, I think that cabal wars shouldn't be clear cut "everyone has a nemesis and that's it. No further RP required.". The complex situations in cabal dynamics brings more depth to the RP world of the game and adds to the immersion. I think that cutting down options would reduce the RP quality in the fields.

Scion is the only cabal that probably a good quarter of the character ideas I come with even remotely fits.

I feel like too large a chunk of potential interesting roles falls out of the game without a Scion.

But that's me. If I had to close some cabals, Scion's about my fifth or sixth choice.

Most of my memorable characters were Scions, it really does give you a lot of unique rp options. Thats mostly because the only other evil outlet has some rp restrictions about being evil. This does'nt change the fact that the cabal does not fit into cabal politics at all, which is one of the reasons they were limited in numbers.

At this point to be a succesful scion, you need to have a good 5 yrs under yout belt or you won't make it.

All a really good scion needs is a willingness to RP, and to not be a complete and utter douche. (this is true of most any char really) My first real caballed character was a scion. It was my first bard, and I could not PK for ####. But the scion leadership got along with me, we spoke and interacted and they suggested I come into the fold. And the chancellor pulled me aside and said my loyalties were to be to him before all others (I was basically his pet). That's what made him awesome. He was nice (as a player) and evil (IC) all at the same time, and was using me for his own goals, but at the same time allowing me to play my character. In my eyes my char was a success cause I had a great time playing and I think most people enjoyed my presence in the game. So what if my PK stats were probably 20-40? Only powergaming jackasses care about PK stats alone. This is an RP game too, in case people forget.

You don't have to be a PK elite to be a scion, and it is sort of stupid to think so. What you really need is scion leadership that understands the present state of the PB, and is willing to guide their own scions and mold them into what they should be.

And don't give me scions are all evil and helping is bad RP. If I were chancellor, I'd help all my scions, so that we could fulfill our aims. And if I ever considered anyone a true threat to me, or think they have any designs to take my place, I would flat out have them killed or kill them myself, just to remind them who the chancellor is. If I were a necro I would plague, poison and scourge them. If they used any healing or complained about it I'd kill them then make them start over, until they got the point. You can be team scion at times when it suits you, and an evil sadistic bastard at other times.

While scion presently has no presence, I like having it be there and think removing scion is a terrible idea. I know if I wanted to play a scion, within 30-50 hours of char creation I would probably be in the cabal.

sure the average scion will have a higher skill level (ability to kill people and go through areas) then other cabals but its not the case that there are 10 slots and 10 qualified candidates and they all get in. The reality is that you have 10 slots, 30 qualified candidates, and only 2 get in.


The cabal is broken from a balance standpoint because the only reason it is balanced is because its induction process is always broken. The powers enhance the abilities of mages to an absurd level. Ok only one power does that, despoil. If you remove despoil you can drastically change the player cap.

I'd disagree with you that a moderate, leaning towards high level of competency is not required to get into and stay a Scion, most of the time.

It's true that some Chancellors have their heads on right and value RP and other things above an applicant's ability to PK/prep, but there have also been times where all a throwaway character needed to do was have a nice suit, PK a few folks, and start rattling off prep/game knowledge and boom, mix with water and you've got Instant Scion (tm).

It really does come down to who is in the boss' chair. I've see some very, very lame, power-gamey Chancellors and I've seen some Chancellors that were very healthy and positive not only for Scion but for the game in general and for less experienced players seeking to join the cabal. (Luckily, in the past couple years it's been the latter more often than not).

PS: I haven't interacted with the current Chancellor whatsoever, and so this is all based on observations made earlier than his reign began. I have no idea where Mharlonbrando (or whatever) falls on my Scion Scale of Coolness.

I know I've inducted newbies before, and found reasons not to boot them as readily as I'd boot an experienced player.

In fact, one of the most annoying things as ANY cabal leader, for me, is when some vet comes and spouts the cabal clichees, and then is offended when I don't immediately hit the induct button.

Another issue is when someone deletes a WHATEVER, an a lowbie approaches and gives the exact same spiel as the recently deleted WHATEVER gave, and then wonders why I don't immediately hit the induct button since I did last time they used that spiel.

I think Minyar played Lornis, can't remember Frismund's player. He and Frismund spoke with me cause I had aided them a bunch of times and then they inducted my bard. Being a bard you kind of get more of a pass on newbieness maybe, just because most bards never go scion, so maybe that helped me and everyone likes having a bard lackey to give them the songs before they go out and whoop ass. Cause stacking bagatelle, battaglia, and anthem on top of a chancellor powered abs shifter just made him even tougher.

I get the leader role, and the vetting in scion for applicants. My thought was just that most players that see another player putting effort into playing the game and not just powergaming will probably give a little more time to that player, and maybe help them figure it out. Especially in all the other cabals, where most people are given their chance to play their chars, so leaders really never boot except in maybe empire.

Now, if you get the chancellor killed cause of stupidity, you might get booted, and your newbieness may be to blame. And that is how it goes. So yes, maybe you need to have a small degree of competency to stay in scion. But really, I was playing my first bard, my first evil, and my first truly caballed character that got into cabal wars.

Those were fun days, were often 4-5 scions around. But I did see that all the other scions were certainly better and more knowledgable about most all aspects of the game then I was, so I'm sure I caused a few facepalms. But I think there were less as I picked up how to play a scion from them.

I just think scion works fine, people in it just have to understand that not everyone is going to be the beast scion, and that is ok.

Do you think that with our current playerbase that closing a cabal would maybe be a beneficial thing, as far as making the other cabals more populated/interesting for raids and stuff? I honestly feel the same way about Scion, if I had my choice of nixing any cabal it would be Empire and then adding Scarab back making Scarab/Scion an elite evil side. I just doubted anyone would go for it.

I really miss old school raiding. I just want to see it again and I feel like people are too spread out =(

And that's that people don't raid until they have what they think is overwhelming force.

It's annoying when 4 guys don't raid against you and wait until they have six, then mow you and the inner down in about 15 seconds.

Nixing it the first time was a terrible idea.

I hope CF IMM's don't repeat history.

It's my favorite cabal and it is the reason I am a CF player.

Basically it does not fit into the cabal dynamics, it never has. Which is why they limited the numbers. If scion had 30 members, how ridiculous would cabal wars be?

Down with Scion! Find a new outlet for mages or just take mages out of the game as well!

You don't have to attempt to get into scion, so how does the cabal make the game worse for you?

Just think of scion as being the new scarab.

Personally I'd rather be in a small cabal than one that runs around ganking.

If there are only 3 people in scion, and around 10 apps, how is this really impacting on the membership of other cabals? Answer, it's not, significantly.

Also, 3 players and 10 apps does not mean 13 players out of circulation. Some players might have more than one app, and some apps might have characters in other cabals.

I think scion adds to the game, and the cost is minimal.

Why not argue that orcs should be abolished instead of scion? Because you don't have a gripe about not getting into the Grinning Skulls? Why not argue for abolishing herald?

Variety is good, overall.

Falls in numbers are either down to:
- players being tools
- players leaving because they can't run around with their friends and share info

I know which of the above I think is the cause, but I recognise that others feel it's the other. However, I don't think many people seriously consider scion's small group to be a serious problem.

In the sense that the player base doesn't have the numbers to adequately -resist- Scion, I'd agree. When Scion has more than one or two active players in similar time slots, they can influence cabal dynamics and PK very dramatically. The percentage of your average competent Scion's PK range that is able to go up against them is pretty low, even under favorable conditions for the under-dog. So from that perspective, I'd say yeah, the numbers don't support Scion being very large in terms of members whilst being "fair".

In terms of players being able to get into Scion in the first place, I'd say there is no problem and no change needed. Ability wise, Scion's requirements haven't changed in years. Apparently, it's simply the fact that there are fewer competent applicants willing to RP and "earn their spot", so to speak, than before. Adekar's post suggests, to me at least, that people just aren't trying hard enough (which isn't very hard).

I could care less, honestly. I really don't think getting into Scion was/is/will be very difficult when a player makes a genuinely good and balanced (PK, RP, role, time-investment, etc.) effort. Likewise, there is plenty to do and plenty of power to be had even with Scion being out of the equation.

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Find a fun and exciting way to fold mages back into the Empire, through some long echoey rp thing. I think it would even be cool if a lot of the scion style RP got brought back into the empire, perhaps making the mages special part within empire to add a more interesting dynamic.

Empire already tends to dominate enough as it is - we don't need them to have transmuter, invoker and conjurer backup too!

nt

I'm was looking at the hero ranges right now, and not really thinking of the longterm implications.

Imperial healers make a huge difference, and imperial muters would too.

The difference is if the Emperor at that moment thinks he can get away with inducting you and likes you enough.

you are still going to spend either 80 years or until you hit level 51 as bloodoath, but if you make yourself both useful and well-loved while creatively finding ways to shun the players who abuse you (or schmooze with the Emperor to get them anathema'd, also hint-hint: abuse duo dimension, this works great for political intrigue or simply convincing a bossy player you are not logged in including higher-ranked people) then being a muter can be almost more fun than having actual cabal powers, especially with the number of stunts a transmuter can pull off accelerating and enhancing the pre-hasted level 51 centurions.

I believe an imperial muter is a very strong combo even if you can't get above citizen.

I think this is something that doesn't want to be done, but just needs to be with no counter balance to it. It's like a bad breakup, just let her go as much as it sucks and know in the end it will be better than it is now. Scion just plain and simple needs to be gone, the cabal isn't working as it was intended.

People roll Scion more for the powers than for the role. Turn it into a religion if need be and have Mergulla be an appointment leader of it. I bet she will rarely have many followers based upon the beliefs and operating system of the cabal dogma.

People role Empire for the powers.
They roll outlander for the powers.
They roll battle for the powers.
etc.

Again, why single out scion?

I would also disagree about the lack of rp within scion. Overall, the rp I've seen in scion is second only to that I've seen in trib, funnily enough.

Probably not the best thought out post. I was just saying it's an ultimate power combo for mages, and it was made for the elite of the elite back in the day, and now you see complete douchebags getting to use these powers and not having to do much to earn them like they used to have to. On top of that, my biggest pet peeve is just hardly any IMM activity in the cabal. It was different when Eshval and Muuloc were rocking, but now there's an always afk IMM that also has two other cabals to worry about which is not cool. You can't juggle three cabals and be very effective as far as watching, getting attached to followers, etc.

It's not a grudge at all though, I love Scion... I always have and I've had multiples in the cabal. I'm just saying that every cabal has their direct opposite... Scion doesn't, and with the limited amount of players, it'd be nice to just cut away the possibility of the cabal to increase other cabal wars numbers. If Scarab didn't come back and we started getting initiates it'd be a different story... but Scarab and Scion are WAY too similiar as far as intentions and purpose in the game, and I'd much rather have Scarab.

All in all, I think I make some good points that validate at least a constructive debate on the situation, and that's all I'm really shooting for.

=)

Magi taken out of the fortress.
Warlocks relaunched but as a separate cabal.
Scion no longer at war with Empire.

Scion vs Warlock.

They'd need to give the new Warlock some pretty sick powers, because Scion powers make Scion mages even more powerful against other mages than the powers already make Scions more powerful against everyone.

Volley (especially if you spam it to 100%) is just disgustingly powerful.



Also, it's not that hard to get into Scion especially given that Adekar is looking after it. I know when I was Chancellor I hard-capped it at 10 (I was told by Adekar (in another persona) that this was to be the case). You don't need elite PK and prep skills to get in, you need solid RP - even though I as a player would prefer veterans beside me. Of course you can't be a complete newbie as well...

I guess a simple template would be:

Write good Scion role.
Roll character (preferably a mage).
Level to 15.
Pledge to Chasm.
Write good note to Scion asking for induction.
Level up, spam, PK, explore, etc for about a week.
Talk to other Scions and ask for recommendations (but if you can't find other Scions, try the Chancellor).
If the Chancellor has not spoken with you in 2 weeks, write a note to Immortal and request entry into Scion.
Continue with PK, explore, ranks...
You should get in within 2-4 weeks of having pledged and written the note, unless Scion is at its cap (10).

I know it's in most Scions' RP to be somewhat mage-elitist, so it's easier to get in as a mage.

Warlocks didn't have volley, but they had counterspell. Less good in that it can't backfire on the original caster, but superior in that it works against people already fighting you, and also protects groupmates. Ok, it could be used against you, but that almost never happened.

Then there was the ability to make a room anti-summon, and (if I remember correctly) prevent evil servitors entering it. Pretty nice if defending a cabal inner or outer against a conjie.

Then there was the ability to make a ward that blocked some blows (along the lines of parry and dodge).

All in all, a nice skillset for dealing with scions. Would I rather have scion powers? Yes. But Warlock powers were a nice foil for scion powers, and they had the parry-ward thing so that ragers didn't slaughter them.

ntnt

I don't really see every cabal as having a "direct opposite". This is my view of it:

Fortress vs. any evil, regardless of cabal or uncaballed.

Empire vs. everyone.

Scion vs. everyone.

Battle vs. Scion, Nexus, and any magic regardless of cabal.

Tribunal vs. Outlander and Wanted

Outlander vs. Tribunal, Empire, Scion, and I think Fortress should be part of that list for any non-good Outlander and some good.

Herald vs. Tea and Cake

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Granted, may not work out in practice, but that is how my characters would see it if they were in any of the cabals.