I know one is there to counter the other but my current issue, as I see it is with the ranks that both are accessible.

Deathblow is sub 30 and ABS is realisticly (for the majority of the playerbase to have all three) not feasible until rank 40. This leaves a massive imbalance at lower ranks for mages who are forced to lose to berserkers purely because they suddenly thro out 2 obliterates in a round of combat (this was through aura and shield btw!). If I had barrier then I may have stood a chance but I have worked hard to have a large selection of wand locations to check to maximise my chances of having wands. The ones I have are non-sleeks as I still have not found any sleeks this time round.

Deathblow is a necessity when ABS is plentiful, which to my mind, is 40+ for the majority of players and therefore deathblow should not be accessible until the same rank, 40.

Thoughts?

-----Abernyte

Arial sword with ASS? I'd fight that rager no problem. Imperial human axe spec? Time to stand and wink at the healer.

You don't -have- to be a mage to have a bad match versus a rager.

I know it doesn't always work out this way, but by all rights the only warriors who should fear DB are Nexuns and Scions. If Fort, Outtie, Imperial, Uncaballed, etc. warriors are fighting Ragers, it's because they have chosen to. And if they've brought a knife to a gunfight I'm inclined to not feel sorry for them.

Empire is a special case as they often make war on everyone (by choice), but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who feels like Imperials are getting the short end of the stick.

I'd like to see more accountability when it comes to Villagers hunting non-Village enemies, but I think much of it would have to come from Battle IMMs because (in my experience) people tend to behave when their leaders are on. And who, as a leader, is going to take the word of some Imperial Thief or Fortress Healer over their own guy?

I'd hope that if Thror sees RBW#54672 killing some uncaballed non-mage that he would strip him of DB until he redeems himself. I'd like to see this happen more often, actually.

I'm going to stop now because I'm already starting to ramble.

nt

This isn't meant as an official response, just a commentary re: mid-ranked Ragers.

I don't think DB is a balancing factor for ABS during the mid-ranks. I think DB and Resist (not so much spellbane) are balancing factors during the mid-ranks for (1) leveling without access to magic/communes (no protections/healing), and (2) low moves and lack of refresh. In the midranks, a RBW plays out kind of like how one historical writer described Crusader Knight running up against Muslim calvary - basically you had one powerful shot without much opportunity for reload. Midranked RBWs are very powerful, but the weaknesses (mainly movement) are exploitable by enemies that either want to avoid them or string them out to trap them. As Malakhi I didn't get my Rager weaknesses exploited very often even though I fought a lot of people outside the "rager box", but as a Rager enemy (mainly imperials) I have exploited Rager weaknesses with IMO a good rate of success. I have also failed miserably when I opted not to exploit a RBW weakness (e.g., fight a RBW 1v1 at the village gates - which is the best case scenario for the midranked RBW when you think about it). Anyway, that's where I see most of the balancing considerations.

Setting that aside and looking at DB vs. available protections (ABS), I think it is worth noting that DB already scales with levels, meaning it implicitly factors availability of protections into account.

I have played countless villagers until the last few years where I got sick of the majority of people who played them and I switched to mages so I am not complaining from the mage side without having played the other.

You say that DB is a balancing factor for ranking because they don't have magic or communes. That is a weak argument because a RBW can still group with a paladin or healer who can tank or make your third a decent tank. Warriors are designed to do lots of melee damage anyway and the majority of normal warriors don't have a pocket transmuter to make them buff while ranking. Add to that the other rager path caled scout that doesn't get deathblow. What do they get for ranking? Answer is 'nothing' so arguing that deathblow is to help berserkers rank is a no go.

Deathblow was originally to help ragers combat masters with sanctuary/voker shields (later) and massive hp mages in the main enemy of Masters. Add to that the gangs from Shadows and later, Imperials then deathblow could help turn your fight to a draw, maybe even a win. Now gangs do exist for RBWs from Empire still but it is BECAUSE they have deathblow, not the other way around.

The Imms often speak of characters not all rushing to hero and the game is not all about being Hero but being a mid-ranked mage with RBWs who can run up to you and pincer for a double MANGLES, followed by some melee hits including two deathblow OBLITERATES and a DISMEMBERING parting blow kind of removes the fun stick for the mage who has 600hps (ish). Bare in mind that this mage was actually one of the luckier ones who was using shield and aura because he managed to find some non-sleek ones in. The same said RBW also had enough mvs to run to darsylon and then back to galadon to get the other mage who had the recall spell and used it (and bloody quickly too, almost Marcus style quick!)

Now the arguement could be that when and if you happened to see him coming you should have teleported because we have established that word may not be enough, you run the risk of getting stuck, trapped, mullered by mobs and eating a mobdeath. I still fail to see the fun part.

The last few ragers I played were scouts or defenders because I feel that deathblow IS that bad and I wanted people to fight with me for mine and their enjoyment. RBW with deathblow at the level it is, is like playing Street Fighter II Turbo for the first time against M.Bison with full turbo on! You may eventually win but it appears to be so pointless trying.

-----Abernyte

P.S. I know it scales with level but a rank 35 warrior, through aura and shield, chucking out multiple OBLITERATES? Not scaled enough or just not needed to kill mages at those ranks.

P.P.S. I will always love the rager cabal, it was my CF home for 10 years as a serial rager player and I don't want it nerfed, just moved up to rank 40.

Bard in battle + any two berserkers can power through anything ranking wise. Or just any other bard for that matter. Anthem, Resist, and healing. This works at any ranking level. I would always rank with two berserkers if I were playing the bard, because mobs just die so much quicker with deathblow firing. With my bard in the village, I took two berserkers, and we killed every nightwalker in the ruins of Maethien in our mid 40 ranks without stopping once.

Unless berserkers are going around forced into solo ranking I don't buy that they need deathblow to rank efficiently.

That said, I don't mind that they have deathblow when they do since it does scale with level. But don't tell me it is compensation for less ranking ability. It's to put out huge damage. Cause they need to lots of times in PK cause villagers can be victimized pretty badly.

At low ranks, it may be a terror. At high ranks, I watch some mages simply laugh at berserkers. Invokers can often kill them with three spells. Scouts are often more deadly just through using critical hit coupled with spell bane and spell evasion making them harder to hit with spells.

Well, I'm not going to deny that BattleRagers are powerful at all levels. I mean, I only played one (Malakhi), but I definitely felt as though I was worth 1.5x a given enemy with some exceptions (most memorably bards and ABS APs with lightning control). With that kind of raw power, I died a lot more than I usually do testing my limits doing amazing things (when you're in a Porsche, you don't drive 65 unless you're 65), but then I also racked up PKs at a rate that's pretty standard for Imperials (in all honesty, I think Imperial Powers are the ones we should all be subjecting to heavy scrutiny because they are truly OP for the classes that get them - it's the cabal for the Doom contingent )

That said, I think the game balance behind RBW powers is much more complicated than simply saying "DB is balanced against ABS." I gave you two examples that are a big deal at midranks: ranking issues and movement issues. I think they're interrelated with respect to the midranked Ragers major weaknesses.

Basically, IMO when you're a RBW, you have to bank on killing your opponent quickly when you are far from the Village. The more drawn out the fight is, the more likely you'll lose because the other guy has access to alot more utility resources than you do. With respect to ranking, that means where a different character would quaff out when being hit by an ambushing enemy while at 1/2 health, a Rager often has to gut it out in Last Stand Mode. And there are a lot of opportunities for Last Stand Modes during the midranks because of Rager limitations. And if the Rager's unwilling to expose himself to Last Stand Mode, it's pretty easy to avoid that Rager during the midranks. I used the Crusader knights as an example, but there are plenty of examples in fantasy lore where a smaller, more maneuverable force stretches out a stronger force over distance and then collapses on them from all sides. This is what you do to midranked Ragers - you string them out and them hit them when it's too late to head back for the city.

Now, a lot of players don't take advantage of these weaknesses and place Ragers in Last Stand Mode. A lot of players want to face midranked Ragers 1v1 at the giant and expect to win 50% of the time. IMO that's a ridiculous expectation. There is no better matchup for the midranked Rager than that with the exception of the same fight at the Destructor.

So to wrap it up, I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just think it's a complicated balancing act that's not susceptible to quick fixes.

If you want to fight said villager, it's really hard to do it anywhere else than the giant.

It also plays an important role in Villager ranking. Berserkers need to cut down mobs quickly to offset the fact that unless there's a Defender around, they have no way to speed healing.

As for my personal opinion, I think mages are supposed to be fragile at low levels, and maybe low levels means sub 40. A price must be paid for the ability to pump invoker damage, duo + neuro, archons and devils, bad-ass forms, Undead and huge unholy weapons.

By the time you get to hero the staggering majority of Villagers are underpowered compared to the mages and that's the price they pay for dominating at the 25-40 range.

Disclaimer: I'm a serial Villager who thinks that Gary Gygax made the right decision to have wizards be weak until they had paid their dues.