Wherein I argue that centurions break the fun-stick. Why?

Fighting someone at centurions is a huge advantage assuming you match up even reasonably well against them.

Moreover you can place centurions such that most characters can't reach the Palace without killing them.

Moreover Empire defenders can wait behind the centurions in such a way that attackers can't easily determine whether they're nearby.

What's the net result?

1. Empire defenders have a huge incentive (more so than for other cabals) to camp out at the Palace when they hold an enemy cabal's item.

2. Attackers have a disincentive to attempting a retrieval unless they can muster enough force to counteract whatever Imperial force may be lurking just behind the Centurions ready to pounce.

Personally, I think camping on an item and destroying people at centurions isn't particularly fun. But it's so effective that I'm reluctant to fault Empire guys for doing it.

Unfortunately I don't have a ready solution. But the status quo does seem kinda wack.

Centurions are probably the most overpowered cabal skill in the game just based on how easy they are to get relative to how powerful it is. Maran powers are comparatively a PAIN to get, because you have to spend so much time as a Squire, and they're no where near as lethal as Centurions.

You don't have to really give up anything to get Centurions and you don't have to wait very long for them and you can benefit just by being an Imperial (even if you can't use them yourself).

Those combined make them much better than they should be and realistically, given you can achieve the power with almost no time commitment, it's a low cost power.

Or rather, that I don't think there are good countermeasures to.

For example, the camping often involves them waiting in the Keep of the Righteous area, and you can perform a summon ambush on them there quite easily, by taking the path from the Holy Grove.

There's basically nowhere you can't spot the imperials before they can react, if you approach it right. (Exception being if imperials with hide are at the centurions and you can't detect hidden.)

I don't deny that camping doesn't occur, but when you know they are doing it (which you can establish relatively safely), you can just go and do something useful while they all sit on their butts. Check in on them every so often to see if they are still camping. If so, do some more useful stuff. If not, bribe the cents and retrieve.

How do you check if they're waiting in a guard tower 3 steps from centurions?

Some classes can, but most can't. Outside of paying the cents.

I think that Centurions shouldn't be allowed to be placed in imperial lands. You should get a message saying "This land is already under Imperial control" or something like that.

I think it's more fun for the game and pk if centurions are seen throughout other parts of the game. As it stands right now, it seems like 99% of all summoned centurions are either at the north entrance of balator or on the southern entrance of imperial lands.

Hey, Isildur, FWIW I agree with you to a large extent, but, at least in Battle's case, Thror has stated here, as well as several times IC, that it is OK for Ragers to pay centurions and retrieve (individual Rager role and/or mortal Commander dicta permitting).

I wasn't aware of that while playing a mort, and it certainly would have made ALL of my retrievals as a Rager from Empire more successful if I had known - so there it is.

Other cabals at least have recall or the potential for recall. I think most reasonable minds would agree that having your options whittle down to fleeing from centurions while fighting a PK is a worst case scenario.

Relative to cabal balance, I think that Outlander comes out roughly equal now that Outlander leaders get insects. Pre-insects, I think any reasonable mind that played both cabals for a reasonable period of time would think raids/retrievals were skewed toward Empire. You didn't touch on specifics, but I thought I'd add that for commentary

The reality could be that Fortress is the one under-deathful outlier in the cabal item retrieval game (I'd like to include Scion in that TBH - just not that hard to retrieve from in most circumstances - not sure why others think it is inherently difficult. Maybe Nexus, but Nexus has a good stretch of draining movement territory to get to it, can be hard to flee from, and can't hide on the approach to the cabal - all of which add at least a little to the difficulty factor, but admittedly not much). Fortress gets the short end of the stick, maybe an alternative could be to propose something to lift Fortress's retrieval deathfulness up a bit as opposed to weakening cents.

My main complaint was about the "choiceness" of fighting a melee class at centurions (esp. taking into account those centurions have been called by someone much higher level than the guy who eventually jumps on the person attacking the cents).

Because that situation is so favorable it encourages Empire mid-ranked guys to hang around waiting for people to attack.

Usually when you have a situation that's "really favorable" it's balanced by the fact that it's "voluntary". Take forsaken portal. Retrieving when there's one inside the chasm totally sucks. But if it's not feasible then you just leave. The portal doesn't trap you there while a Scion kills you.

And to be clear- I'm not just arguing that the incentive to camp makes things less fun for Empire enemies. It also makes things less fun for the Empire guys whose optimal strategy is now to sit around waiting for their enemies to attack.

Imagine if centurions didn't exist. As a 30s empire guy what's my motivation to hang around Imperial Lands waiting? Not much. If a group arrives and sees that I'm there they just leave unless they're powerful enough to overcome me and any other defenders nearby. They're able to make an informed decision. Now consider the situation with centurions. The retrievers can't know whether their force is large enough to successfully retrieve unless they first pass the centurions to see who's in Lands. In order to avoid the potential for near-unavoidable death they must operate under the assumption that all possible defenders are, in fact, sitting 4 rooms away from the cents ready to pounce.

So there it is.

Mostly because it's not just fort that like to hunt the path to the fort.

You don't tend to find other cabals camping the path to the Palace (particularly outlander who you can't see, and may well only find out are there when you try to flee from any defender that hurts you badly). Worst case scenario with Empire is you get a trib called to help, or who follows you from Hamsah (which is easily worked around).

I know outlanders regularly offered to help my fort characters (or indeed my non fort characters who would act to defend the fort) by setting snares south of the maran so that after I made the guy flee they'd finish him off, or hold him up for me to do so.

I don't see how anyone that's raided any other cabal could possibly call Fortress one of the more dangerous retrieval jobs because there's a chance that an outlander will be camping nearby. I mean, I've raided Fort tons of times alone, and never felt an ounce of danger except for one time when I got caught in quicksand by Niheriva and an invoker (I survived that).

What cabal, exactly, do you think is easier to retrieve from than Fort? With the exception of Scion, I don't see how you could make an argument that any cabal is easier as long as you're dealing in the realm of reasonable reality and not biased theoretical possibility.

So I'm clear, and so I'm not mired entirely in personal anecdotes, here are the reasons why I think Fort is the easiest cabal to retrieve from:

1. Proximity to major city = easy hit and run
2. Size of interior = harder to constantly defend
3. 3 squares of snarable wilderness area = not a serious, credible threat if you're remotely wary.
4. No early warning mechanisms for defenders.
5. Nothing that prohibits magical transportation.
6. Nothing to prevent retrievers from determining exactly how many defenders are present (with respect to your comment above, imperials don't need to camp in the KOR - they can camp in imperial lands 2 squares away from the double centurions at the edge of balator and beginning of imperial lands).

Basically you're talking about the easiest-scoutable cabal, that's hardest to defend, and among the easiest to reach, without any limitations/restrictions on your escape.

Play imperial. Powers are hot but you have more than enough enemies to deal with so they do look reasonable. Just don't always play at Empire o'clock.

I think that was his duergar shaman high priest's name. And Issy has played a couple (very few) other Imperials.

nt

Just saying.

He has found that centurions, particularly if they were placed by a hero, made it way too easy for HIS (and thus all) lowbies to defend.

The only comparable situation I can think of would be when a wanted lowbie outlander tries to retrieve from the Spire against hero defenders. Retrievers are far more likely to laugh off bioempathy than they are to laugh about manacles and hero guards or hero centurions.

The wonderful thing about Empire is that they typically have all manner of young cannon fodder to help defend. And although I am far from an rp-Gestapo, it seems wrong for Fortress and Outlander to pay off the guards so they can *attempt* to slip through the Imperial gauntlet unnoticed to get to the outer guardian. Do these young imperials really need an auto-assisting, flee-preventing hero mob warning system?

Its balanced just fine. If you want to argue camping mechanics, argue against scion too. Because those portals are nasty and daylight doesn't touch them there, and having your whole inventory stolen while retrieving is a fun stick right in the ass. Or even better, start a campaign against camo, because many have been the times where 5 outlanders sat camoed for hours waiting for a foe to be dumb enough to try and retrieve with them all there. Cents you can just pay and be done with it, it would be low on my things to hate list personally.

Point 1: Exactly the same but WORSE when retrieving from outlanders. (cammo?) If there's an invoker or ranger you can get pretty screwed. Or a leader.

Point 2: Exactly the same, sure you don't have to fight centurions. But killing centurions is only hard pre-30-35. (Sure, if you tank both cents + defender it's bad.) But at least you KNOW that they MIGHT be there. Against outlanders you have no idea until you're ambushed/attacked.


Personally I'm MUCH more afraid to retrieve from outlanders than the empire. Against the empire I can at least assess the risk of retrieving and make a good call if it's worth a try, or if it's not. Against outlanders it's a gamble. Or wait for 2 hours spamming who to see if anyone is on.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

Yes, Outlanders ***CAN*** be scary to retrieve from... but how often do they have the numbers to make a serious, prep-using, intelligent, concerted retrieval attempt a total suicide gambit?

Sure, a huge Outtie gang hiding near the Huntress is scary, but how often are you totally and absolutely unaware of it? How often does Empire come to retrieve without a gang of lowbies, or a Warmaster, Dreadlord/High Priest, and an Elite Blade or two? In a vacuum, call 'chamelon' is strong. If you're an idiotic Imperial that goes into the woods alone against possible multiple opponents, sure. But how often is that the case? I dunno. Outtie numbers are almost never comparable to Empire numbers. Order some lowbies around. Laugh if they get trepidation or bioempathy called on them.

SO YOUR'RE POST MJAED ME LAUGH. j/k my swiss frend

1 outlander hero (d-elf trannie)
5 empire hero
1 trib hero
3 scion hero
3 fortress hero
5 villager hero

I think that's it.

So, I've been faced retrieving from Empire with 12 heroes.

And outlanders: with 9 heroes.

I've had a few trib, outlander, scion and empire lowbies as well.

Oooh, and I rarely play during empire O'clock. However I often play during outlander O'clock it seems.

In my book outlander retrievals are the most scary ones.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

Is you don't KNOW whether they have those numbers to make it suicidal until it is too late. (Well, if you have locate object you can make an educated guess.)

With any other cabal it's a lot easier.

I've played in and against Outlander during times when it had plenty of folks, and I never really noticed any coordinated long-duration camo camping.

Sure, one guy might idle in the cabal camo'd or something, but that's not the scenario people are suggesting seems to occur anywhere near as often as say, facing 2x+ pairs of centurions on the way to the Palace, for example.

Has it happened before? Sure. Does it happen often? Absolutely not. Not with the extreme numbers and for such long durations as people seem to be implying (or maybe I'm reading them wrong).

Oh, and I think cents are fine. Pay them. Silently kill them (if it's one set). Or just bring one massive gank and have a big orgy of death. Whatever.

I totally agree that Scion is the worst. 1-2 buff Scions can defend against all of Fort or Battle or Outlander at once.

Having played outland and enemies of outlander, mass camping really does take place. I've been on the receiving end, I've witnessed it as a neutral party, and I've been party of the ganking party before (something I didn't particularly feel good about).

Also, in terms of which cabal guardian is hardest, it really depends on your build. I've played a number of characters that would quite happily raid scion solo but get reamed by the watcher. Similarly I've played some that find the spirit easy, but others than need 3 raids to take it down at hero, even when unopposed. (It doesn't take long for a character with no pets/charmies to end up spored, insected, spike growthed and thornhearted, whereas a necro with full army will probably only suffer one of these before his army has killed the spirit.)

>Point 1: Exactly the same but WORSE when retrieving from
>outlanders. (cammo?) If there's an invoker or ranger you can
>get pretty screwed. Or a leader.

Outlander sort of has the same problem, but I would say it's no worse than empire and, in some ways, not as bad.

With outlander the problem is that there might be a lot of people there who you just can't see. You just don't know who is logged on. And, possibly, up to three of them have a power that prevents you using magical transportation.

With Empire you can see who's online (discounting thieves and assassins unless your team has a guy with detect hidden), but you can't see who is in imperial lands unless you have some way to get past centurions. Empire doesn't have insects, but it does have centurions that prevent fleeing.

If my group preps and walks to the Tree (maybe sending one guy ahead to trip snares) and there are defenders, we can turn around and run away. On foot if need be due to insects.

If my group attacks centurions at the entrance to Balator and is immediately engaged by a superior force with good lag options...we're probably screwed unless we can word from combat.

"Fighting someone at centurions is a huge advantage assuming you match up even reasonably well against them."
True. But that is also true of any person defending no matter if it is at an outer or Centurions. If I have an item and I know I can match a person coming to retrieve, I have the advantage. Of course, the retriever also has one in determining when and for how long to fight. Especially if I'm prep dependent to match up. The biggest advantage I see in centurions is they are renewable.

"Moreover you can place centurions such that most characters can't reach the Palace without killing them."
You can pay them. As an outlander, yeah, you have to kill them. But again I never see killing them as much of a problem unless there is an imperial healer.

"Moreover Empire defenders can wait behind the centurions in such a way that attackers can't easily determine whether they're nearby."
True, they can be in a different area which is a perk if retrievers have a summoner, but otherwise I see little advantage. So you don't know if they are in the lands while you are in Balator? I would just say assume they are and plan accordingly.

"Empire defenders have a huge incentive (more so than for other cabals) to camp out at the Palace when they hold an enemy cabal's item."
I think most defenders camp their cabal when they hold an item in the hopes of getting a little PK action. Imperials have an incentive because centurions can be used to make an effective trap, but I would say defenders always have an edge in most cases.

"Attackers have a disincentive to attempting a retrieval unless they can muster enough force to counteract whatever Imperial force may be lurking just behind the Centurions ready to pounce."
So the argument is the recon on the cabal is more difficult? Not many people can kill an outer before the imperials can get back to it anyway. However I do agree that since they can just keep placing cents it can be tedious to retrieve from empire.

"Personally, I think camping on an item and destroying people at centurions isn't particularly fun. But it's so effective that I'm reluctant to fault Empire guys for doing it."
Empire uses what it has, I don't blame them for using it. But you can counter it.
Call nexuns? Call fort? Call outlander? Call Battle? Call scion? Really every cabal will fight imperials in the right situation. Especially if it means they have a chance to PK an imperial. It's rare I see a list of players and just say that there is no way to retrieve. Getting people to do it is different, but the means are usually there. And if not, let the five imperials sit in the lands waiting while you do other things. No rule says if your item is lost go all out until you get it back.

pay them.

But I'm a Maran, I said.

That's okay, they said.

But what if I were an Outlander, I said.

Barter, they said.

I never believed them though, so I've never done it.

Thats power of the empire.. shouldent be diffrent. you can always pay to get past them..

If you begin about this, then we can talk about all other cabals powers aswell, and say they are overpowered...

trollololololol

When I played my imperial thief, lightforce was the bane of my existence. Grapple weapon was a very useful tactic for me except against people who could readily manufacture weapons.

My point was that this particular power promotes camping in a way others don't. A good example is cry of the phoenix, which actually works against camping.

Cry of the phoenix is where you can cry to the Maran if you need to correct? It means you don't need to camp because you know if anyone attempts to retrieve via the cb channel. That kind of mean you're perma camping since if anyone strikes you can go right there. And if you see an assassin visible for a bit assume he tiger clawed and cry to check. I saw a log of that with I think Arrna, where she just shredded some assassin who thought he was clever.

Were I an imperial I would use cents as an early warning system. Put them right in balator, if people pay and get to the vanquisher so be it, I can probably get back before it's dead. If they strike the cents that just buys a little time. True some imperials may camp, but other cabals don't have any sort of warning mechanism so have more incentive to camp so as to prevent retrievals.

nt

cry can take you to both the inner and outer guardian of the fort as a maran.

You cry to the Tara'bal "maran outer" or to the Watcher "maran inner". Once a particular maran does it there's a cool down period before another one can cry in.

I think here we have proof that you genuinely don't visit Dio's any more, as this became common knowledge there.

nt