They are very strong, and they have absolutely no lag on their one thing they do. IT is a way to strong commune to be able to do it every round. Eating that much damage, while getting hit numerous times by shield jabs, ect.. is to much damage. Is this the norm to take that much damage from co wraith, or co flame?

How is that fun anyways? You just start a fight and then co wraith, !, !, !, !, !, !, !,

How about adding some lag to it. The damage is outrageous

.

When you're playing a fighting class, the idea when you're fighting anything - Paladins included - is to "disarm" it, and then lag it. By "disarm" it, I mean eliminate its ability to hurt you more than you hurt it (e.g., disarm the weapon, make it drop the weapon due to strength loss, offhand the shield, lower his mana, stun him until sanctuary drops, etc.).

So in the case of a Paladin, there are three common ways to disarm him: (1) remove his weapon through disarm-skills or strength loss or wielding a weapon he doesn't know (so he can't parry your attacks and/or can't hurt you with the weapon), (2) remove his shield through disarming-skills, or (3) hinder his ability to regenerate mana and/or extend the fight to get him without sanctuary.

Nos. 1 and 2 are pretty obvious. No. 3 may take you playing a paladin to appreciate the effects of not having trance and having mana-expensive supplications. When you understand how much the supplications cost to keep up and how little mana you regen, you get a feel for how you can drain the paladin's mana. The easiest way is to make the paladin bleed because bleeding hinders regeneration. Or you can poison him or the like. Once his mana drops low enough he won't be able to heal as much, or wrath as much, and maybe he will start having problems keeping his sanctuary up. At that point, you start lagging him out. This method often requires a lot of hit and running while remaining in the area so there's a little risk involved.

Overall, I don't think paladins are that difficult for fighting classes with the exception of ones that have the Temperance virtue. Temperance is horrible because it basically removes your ability to reliably use options 1, 2, and 3 - and lagging them out, too.

Personally, Defiance has always been a non-issue for me. Although it removes option 1, it makes the paladin more susceptible to option 3 because he thinks he can lag you with it - but the lag happens so infrequently that I've never died to it, personally.

Anyway, there's my advice on fighting paladins with a fighting class.

No sanctuary? Bash. If they have sanctuary, run around in a circle until it falls, then bash.

If they are a shield paladin, make them lose their shield, and then bash, santuary or not.

If they are holding a long sharp pointy thing, break it or their arms, and then bash.

If you bash but they keep spamming wrath without any lag, then flee, and let them come to you or summon you. Then bash.

If you don't know how to bash, or someone gave them Defiance, then hire someone who can bash while you dispel their hopes and dreams.

If that doesn't work,

> quaff transportation

>No sanctuary? Bash. If they have sanctuary, run around in a
>circle until it falls, then bash.

While true of anything (sanc, ABS, fly, etc.), it's almost never practical.

>If they are a shield paladin, make them lose their shield, and
>then bash, santuary or not.

Sure, but once any Paladin worth a damn hits hero and starts assembling a decent suit, a shield made of a material that is impossible to cleave and/or remove is going to be high on their list. It's the best tactic available, but the GOOD Paladins are going to counter it.

>If they are holding a long sharp pointy thing, break it or
>their arms, and then bash.

Same as above in some cases, and most classes can't do the latter.

>If you bash but they keep spamming wrath without any lag, then
>flee, and let them come to you or summon you. Then bash.

The OP didn't say he was a warrior, and even then, bashing a highly evasive enlarged/reduced Paladin isn't going to be very effective when eating huge damage.

>If you don't know how to bash, or someone gave them Defiance,
>then hire someone who can bash while you dispel their hopes
>and dreams.

Defiance is more of a "when", not "if" for most hero Paladins who want it.

>
>If that doesn't work,
>
>> quaff transportation
>

Right.

"Bash or don't fight" isn't much help. Lagging a Paladin can be difficult, and for a lot of builds, much like fighting other certain power combos, often times the only "winning move" is to avoid any fight whatsoever.

That's fine though. Taking down a decked Paladin is up there with taking down nasty edged-up O/E conjurer, decked AP, prepped Elite Imperial dagger spec, etc. That's part of the game. If people don't like it, they can put in the wrench time, so to speak, of ranking a Paladin, getting empowered, getting virtues, building the suit, getting the preps to mitigate various lagging skills, and so on.

>Sure, but once any Paladin worth a damn hits hero and starts
>assembling a decent suit, a shield made of a material that is
>impossible to cleave and/or remove is going to be high on
>their list. It's the best tactic available, but the GOOD
>Paladins are going to counter it.

For what it's worth "GOOD warriors" at hero with top-notch gear and cabal powers are also pretty scary.

>Defiance is more of a "when", not "if" for most hero Paladins
>who want it.

My paladin never had it, and I would have liked to.

>"Bash or don't fight" isn't much help.

Some other thoughts:

1. Sleep, summon, maledict.
2. zap barrier;cleave.
3. Assassinate.
4. Devil maledicts, tess somewhere, nightgaunt.
5. Snare, enlarge, haste, wield axes, bearcharge;!;!.
6. Bring a friend; bash + earthbind + cheapshot?

Sure, taking down a decked, skilled, virtued paladin is rough. As you point out, though, so is taking down a decked, skilled, cabal-powered warrior. Or a decked, skilled, scion invoker. Etc.

Paladins are like porcupines. Except sometimes they can lag you a little. And they can summon.

This makes them really hard to kill. By the same token, unless you're summoned somewhere you can't flee from, you probably shouldn't be dying to them that often.

If you can't beat dude then don't fight dude. It's not like he can hide and sneak up on you, fly to you from high altitude, send nightgaunts after you, scry where you are, or even locate body parts and keys to figure out where you're ranking.