It's only semi-related to the other topic, so I thought it best to create a new one ...

The main source for the topic is the mentioned link: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
(Doesn't always seem to work, original post at *)

It's just not that easy to all out play to win. I am a (very) competitive person*, so much that people refused to stop playing squash or chess against me, cause I did not just defeat them, but humiliate them, if I could. Equally with Monopoly, I'm still undefeated, despite all those years ...

But! I chose not to get any better at it than I already am, because I don't think it justifies the time investment.

If I need to spend 12 hours a day playing CF, to be as skilled as Shaapa at pk and be Shura 2.0, I chose not to. One, because I don't have the time, nor two, the intent to spend it, even if I could.

There are other things that are far more important, like getting a regular paycheck, so I can pay off the loan on my appartment and get a relatively care free life.

So, the reality is that I have to compromise. My progress will be much slower, compared to others. It's just a fact.
But, I'm still having fun in my own little way, so who cares?

Does that mean I'm a scrub? Maybe, but I don't think so. I just chose to not advance as fast as others might.

Anyway, what's your thoughts?

* http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=36244&mesg_id=36270&page=
** All of us are, in one way or another, or we wouldn't enjoy CF.

For what its worth, the biggest thing I miss about CF is people roleplaying just to roleplay with each other. The concept of "winning and losing" has really killed CF for me. It's all about game mechanics and all the "uber RP characters" I've come across in the longest time have been people who roleplay at the Imms and by themselves and don't actually socialize at all in game.

That's a shame too. PK was always fun but RP is the only thing that allows CF to compete with real competion oriented games (like Quake 2 back in the day and Starcraft 2/etc in modern times). I liked CF for the environment and that environment now is mostly just people in elf costumes trying to "win" a game that can't be won.

sdbsdfb

The main thing, I think, is to learn from your mistakes and not make excuses for them. Don't be the guy who thinks all of his kills are pure and honorable fights in which he just outplayed the other guy, and thinks all of his deaths are horrible, unfair gangs full of cheap moves. That guy doesn't get any better, and tends to piss everyone else off in the process.

Honestly, most deaths are the fault of the guy who died. And I don't just mean "because he made the decision to fight at all".

I know at least for me, most of my deaths are ones that the "perfect player" would not have eaten. There are a few where I feel like I did everything right and just got unlucky, or where I took an advisable risk and it didn't pay off, but they're in the minority. Most of them I just get tunnel vision and don't shift into "I'm not going to win this fight; I should probably get the hell out of here" mode until its too late.

I'm still not getting any better though. I guess lacking the crappy attitude is necessary but not sufficient.

~

The playing to win mentality makes perfect sense in a competitive tournament setting. But as you say, there's no clear definition for what it means to win in CF. For some people it may be the raw number of PKs for others it may be the best ratio. For others it may be the fewest deaths. And that's completely ignoring the RP side. Becoming leader, for example can be a competitive part of RP, and a criterion of "winning"

And without a clear definition of winning, the idea of playing to win loses a lot of relevancy. There still is a lot of competition, so there are a number of ways in which the ideas are relevant, but ultimately it's not possible to dismiss what in a tournament would be scrub play. For example, if you want to lose as seldom as possible to someone, you should full sac them every time for the small margin of safety it provides. But if you want to kill them as many times as possible, you should probably leave absolutely everything that's not an upgrade so they'll be more comfortable dieing to you in the future.

And this even applies to other scrubby situations. To take the flipside of the example Isildur posted, consider the choices if you are the necromancer. If you sit in a room and spam sleep, you won't lose much. You probably also won't get more than one or two kills. So while someone might say that you'd be a scrub not to use your "cheapest" move (sleep-spamming) it's not clear that's true, because it's not clear what counts as winning in the long-run.

Making up arbitrary rules to play by is the hallmark of the scrub according to Sirrlin, but in CF making up arbitrary rules for yourself is a fundamental part of the game. And that's not even counting RP, which obviously is another whole universe of arbitrary rules you're setting up for yourself.

When I linked it in that thread before, it wasn't because I support playing to win in CF, it was to head off the argument that if you aren't full looting, you aren't playing to win.

I used to type "where" about once a second, if not more frequently, back when I played Daurwyn. Now I sometimes get jumped because I thought about typing where but couldn't be bothered so didn't.

Really, I no longer care as much about dying(as long as someone isn't a #### about it). I often feel good for the guy that killed me (if I respect them).

"Making up arbitrary rules to play by is the hallmark of the scrub according to Sirrlin, but in CF making up arbitrary rules for yourself is a fundamental part of the game. And that's not even counting RP, which obviously is another whole universe of arbitrary rules you're setting up for yourself."

Nail on the head. Agree totally.

>Making up arbitrary rules to play by is the hallmark of the
>scrub according to Sirrlin, but in CF making up arbitrary
>rules for yourself is a fundamental part of the game. And
>that's not even counting RP, which obviously is another whole
>universe of arbitrary rules you're setting up for yourself.
>


The "playing to win" approach makes the most sense to me in the context of separating the game from OOC.

It's one thing to set arbitrary rules for your CHARACTER (whether they be based on OOC goals, RP, or whatever) and then play by those rules within the game. It's another thing entirely to judge other PLAYERS using your own arbitrary rules as the yardstick and berate those other players OOC on forums.

At some point you're limiting your perspective as a player to rules you've established for your character which (1) stunts your growth as a player and (2) diminishes the game by bringing conflicts outside of it.

If you read the full set of articles, I don't think you're interpreting the author's conclusions well.

He's not saying that you need to play 12 hours a day. He's saying that you will improve faster at a game if you don't handcuff yourself with arbitrary self-imposed rules. Someone could play 12 hours a day and be a 'scrub' forever. Someone could play casually but have a fast learning curve, and eventually become a skilled player. And being a skilled player isn't an end game-- there's almost always someone better, and if there isn't, you still have to improve continuously if you want it to stay that way.

The classic CF example which the article alludes to is the post-death complaint "You only beat me because you kept doing X." The author is arguing that the correct question is "Why can't I beat someone who is only doing X?"

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Most people who complain "You only beat me because you kept doing X" aren't thinking about nuance, but I can see some situations where that complaint is almost valid.

I can see a character (without dash or non-bash/trip lag) complaining about a necro who "only beat him" because he totally sold out for sleep and refused to fight him in any fashion except standing in a room spamming "c sleep".

Now consider the question, "Why can't I kill a necro who is only sitting in a room spamming sleep wording when it fails?"

Answer: its really tough, and you're probably not going to if the guy knows what he's doing. Your "winning move" is not to fight him at all. At least that way he can't kill you either.

There are a handful of ways to beat mr sleep spam necro.

#1 If possible dual wield his vuln wear, lots of -svs, and eat a prep that will wake you when you end up slept. (Do lots of damage!)

#2 Bring a ganking buddy he can't see (Lag!)

#3 Grab a maran paladin and prepare a lagging move, step into the area summon necro gank necro (SURPRISE!)

If the answer to that question is always "bring a gang" and/or "prep/gear more" you probably aren't going to improve quickly this way either.

sst

Not exactly the way I <3 it. But unless you are a rager, you are forced to prep. (At least if you want to be more than a speedbump)

Even further, ragers are to some extent forced to prep in other ways. Unless they intend to either never get any kills or con die pre 40 a la shamanman


As far as the gang thing goes,
a. I don't think 1 other person is a gang.
b. thought I mentioned in the post that this was specific to combos that could do little to stop mr pesky healer from squirting off again.

I've always argued that "playing to win" doesn't apply in CF in the sense that he means it. He's talking about tournament style ladder games. The "equivalent" to SCV rushes and all sorts of "cheap tactics" you see in games like SC2 don't pan out in CF. If I was "playing to win" I'd never fight a fight I couldn't win. Or log in without my cabal item. Or join an underdog cabal. Etc. Because those are all things that hinder my ability to "win" and its silly for me to arbitrarily impose ehonor on a CF character and fight stupid fights that I'd lose.

But, I think we all agree that cherry picking login times and cabals isn't what will earn you respect in this community. The confusing part is where we draw the line between "cheap" OOC mechanics and legitimate OOC mechanics.

Get some mob tracking you, for example, or use a prep that wakes you up.