First a small rant about Battle Ragers.


There was/is a lot of discussion about how Ragers are overpowered, etc, etc.

Here is my point of view on this.

Ragers are supposed to hunt and slay mages. Yet most of their time they fight other classes.
Like other warriors, thieves and basically anybody they can find an excuse to bash (my personal view of that).

And although I see nothing wrong with fighting itself... Ragers use their powers to their advantage (how could they not).
I can live with resistance and bloodthirst, etc.

But DEATHBLOW skill is such a killer.
It gives Rager berserkers an extremely powerful advantage at no cost (aside being Rager).

It also allows rager to do cheap kills... where no brains, skills or anything like that is involved.


Here is my typical fight (I was a hero warrior with 1100hp):
------------------------------------------------------
Haljunei sends you sprawling with a powerful bash.
Haljunei's bash grazes you.
You yell yells 'Help! Haljunei is bashing me!'
Haljunei's slice MANGLES you!
Haljunei delivers a blow of deadly force!
Haljunei's slice does UNSPEAKABLE things to you!
That really did HURT!
Haljunei parries your slash.
Haljunei parries your slash.
Haljunei has some small but disgusting cuts.
...
Haljunei's slice MANGLES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Haljunei's slice *** DEMOLISHES *** you!
Haljunei gets in one more shot as you flee.
Haljunei's parting blow does UNSPEAKABLE things to you!
You have been KILLED!!!
-------------------------------------------------------

Now you can say I should prepare, get some help, etc.

But I am just a single warrior.
How much can I prepare and how much will it help me against THAT?

Plus preparation items are mostly LIMITED nowadays.
I can’t have them 24/7. Even if I did collect them - preparations would not last for several fights.

All what Rager Berserker needs to do is: call resist, call bloodthirst (optional), BASH!!!
Or pincer/cranial/etc.


This got me thinking...
Original Battle powers were designed to be a match for transformed/sanced/etc Masters of Magic.
Now Masters cabal is long gone. Even cabals which replaced it are gone too (never mind Scion).

Yet Rager philosophy/powers were left almost unchanged.


They still hunt mages... So how can we change deathblow so it would still fit the Rager thyme yet would allow fair chances for a fight for other classes who are not heavily protected to withstand deathblow.


Here is my IDEA:


Replace deathblow with automatic unblockable critical hit.

In combat: Rager Berserker vs. whoever.

"Cleaving through armadillo best defenses Rager_berserker strikes with a careful precision."
Rager_berserker wrath MANGLES armadillo.



Replace 'critical hit' with owaza/flurry-style deathblow (Variable damage 2x-4x, level dependant).
And the use this skill would have drain moves to prevent spamming.


In combat:

For Scout:
You start looking for an opening to deliver a powerful strike. (No echo for anybody else in the room)
...
(Several rounds latter: One of three results might occur)
a)
You see an opening but foil your timing and miss, leaving your own defenses open.
<One_hit back like with failed stab>

-Or-

b)
You gather all your strength and deliver a powerful strike.
Your_opponent partially blocks your attack but it still hits. (some reduction of the damage.)
Your pierce MANGLES Your_opponent.

-Or-
c)
You gather all your strength and deliver a powerful strike.
Your pierce ===OBLITIRATES=== Your_opponent.
===========================================================

Now what this change would do:

-Berserkers would be forced to think and use their skills.
And NOT brainless "bash,bash,bash and Deathblow will do the rest".

-It will actually give Berserkers advantage against classes who rely heavily on damage_reduction.

For example fight in quicksand with shielded/barrier-ed invoker would not be a death sentence for the rager.
Yet in fight 'Rager vs. unprotected warrior' - Person with better skills will prevail most of the time.

-Scouts will gain a skill which is useful in some situations and not so in others. And equal in power what they have right now. And as a bonus - it looks more fun.



Your input/comments/critic is most welcome.

Regards,


-NNNick-

To Imms:
I understand mentality – don’t touch what is not broken.
But point I am trying to make – Deathblow needs a change.

With deathblow being a skill given only to magic_haters to help them hunt mages…
It currently does this:

Deathblow does UNSPEAKABLE things to warrior.
Deathblow decimates prepared_mage.

As far as my idea how to change DB – it is just an idea.
You are not bound to follow it in any shape or form.
By all means – implement something entirely different.
---

In reply to: Nicolay, Circuits Edge and Nightgaunt_ :
I kind of agree about preps but this is entirely different discussion.


Dwoggurd:
>Deathblow is fine as it is.
No it is not.

> And I like that deathblows let a rager to make feats of arms
and their bards would create tales about that

You are saying rager NEEDs deathblows to do that?
Personally I would like to hear tales of heroes who won against odds.
Not about newbiesh Kackrik killing everybody in one hit.


>Perhaps it is possible to designing it more interesting yet I haven't see any good ideas yet that beats the current state with deathblow.

Offer one.

Btw, Dwoggurd – Not every warrior is extreme parrying machine. Hasted duergar warrior is in much better position to block deathblows then gnome dagger spec.
But perhaps said gnome has other advantages?
But should I be utterly annihilated (because of DB) because I don’t play top-notch combo char?


Nicolay:
>Deathblow should not work only against mages. It should however, work better on over-prepared targets(anyone) and much worse on unprepared warriors.

Exactly my thought.


In reply to Sailatinu:
As a mage I did not have problem with deathblow either. Every time I died to Rager it was for entirely different reasons. My mistake or rager gang most of the times.

As fighter who Ragers liked to pick on I got a ####-load of problems with DB.

>Ragers need deathblow, its always had its point, and it helps separate the field-warrior from the elite-warrior.

Oh. Screw you. You are hopeless.


Circuits Edge
>I think what you meant to say was - It lets any idiot warrior destroy a non prepped opponent with literally no skill.

Yep.


ORB:
>Yes but how often is it just one rager against one warrior? All my rager experiences it's a horde against you most of the time. Either that or well-prepped people. The only warriors who stick around completely un-prepped to fight a rager alone are either stupid, or very good.

Ganging is entirely different discussion.
But you are saying… because rager faces gangs – he needs power to rip every person, who dares to fight him solo, apart?

>Vs. well-prepared:
Would not my solution (automatic critical hit) be better in this situation?

> The only warriors who stick around

I hit flee button moment Rager bashes me (if I don’t intend to fight).
But usually deathblow sends me to pit within 3 rounds. Sometimes even before bash lag wears off.

Again – I don’t have that problem when I play mages. Figure out why.


jaynus:
>Deathblow is parriable/dodgable/blockable. Keep that in mind. If I am fighting an invoker who pulls off UNSPEAK's with a pillar, I have to RELY on a *RANDOM* skill to try to even it out. Think about it. Not only this, but without the head.. Ragers are meat.

Do warriors know how to cast pillars?
Why warriors should be penalized because you are not satisfied how spellbane works?
By the way, spellbane is not random.


Theerkla
>Deathblows can come on flurries, backstabs, and parting blows
Only in parting blows.

>"I have to RELY on a *RANDOM* skill to try to even it out"
I don’t mind DB being random.
I do mind it rips none-mages apart and basically not a factor at all with mages.


Phaistus
>>Each deathblow eats up a certain amount of mana? Nothing huge, maybe like 10 mana each deathblow whether it lands or not. It isn’t downgrading everything but it would make things a bit more interesting, no?

This would annoy the hell out of ragers and would do absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
Warriors do not possess skills to cripple mana.

>To Imms:
>I understand mentality – don’t touch what is not broken.
>But point I am trying to make – Deathblow needs a change.
>
>With deathblow being a skill given only to magic_haters to
>help them hunt mages…
>It currently does this:
>
>Deathblow does UNSPEAKABLE things to warrior.
>Deathblow decimates prepared_mage.
>
>As far as my idea how to change DB – it is just an idea.
>You are not bound to follow it in any shape or form.
>By all means – implement something entirely different.
>---
>
>In reply to: Nicolay, Circuits Edge and Nightgaunt_ :
>I kind of agree about preps but this is entirely different
>discussion.
>
>
>Dwoggurd:
>>Deathblow is fine as it is.
>No it is not.
>
>> And I like that deathblows let a rager to make feats of
>arms
>and their bards would create tales about that
>
>You are saying rager NEEDs deathblows to do that?
>Personally I would like to hear tales of heroes who won
>against odds.
>Not about newbiesh Kackrik killing everybody in one hit.
>
>
>>Perhaps it is possible to designing it more interesting yet I
>haven't see any good ideas yet that beats the current state
>with deathblow.
>
>Offer one.

He's not the one crying about it being "broken." You're the one who has to sell your idea. Don't ask him to do your dirty work.

>Btw, Dwoggurd – Not every warrior is extreme parrying machine.
>Hasted duergar warrior is in much better position to block
>deathblows then gnome dagger spec.
>But perhaps said gnome has other advantages?
>But should I be utterly annihilated (because of DB) because I
>don’t play top-notch combo char?

Not every race/class combo has a fantastic match-up against all the other combos. The game is balanced, but not THAt balanced. Nor should it be.

>Nicolay:
>>Deathblow should not work only against mages. It should
>however, work better on over-prepared targets(anyone) and much
>worse on unprepared warriors.
>
>Exactly my thought.

So, two unprepped warriors decide to gang a rager. Let's punish the rager for this by not letting him use his cabal powers to the fullest extent.

>In reply to Sailatinu:
>As a mage I did not have problem with deathblow either. Every
>time I died to Rager it was for entirely different reasons. My
>mistake or rager gang most of the times.
>
>As fighter who Ragers liked to pick on I got a ####-load of
>problems with DB.
>
>>Ragers need deathblow, its always had its point, and it helps
>separate the field-warrior from the elite-warrior.
>
>Oh. Screw you. You are hopeless.

Worthless for thinking it's necessary. That makes a lot of sense. Well then, I deem you equally worthless for thinking it's unnecessary.

>Circuits Edge
>>I think what you meant to say was - It lets any idiot warrior
>destroy a non prepped opponent with literally no skill.
>
>Yep.
>
>
>ORB:
>>Yes but how often is it just one rager against one warrior?
>All my rager experiences it's a horde against you most of the
>time. Either that or well-prepped people. The only warriors
>who stick around completely un-prepped to fight a rager alone
>are either stupid, or very good.
>
>Ganging is entirely different discussion.
>But you are saying… because rager faces gangs – he needs power
>to rip every person, who dares to fight him solo, apart?

If you can't beat a rager solo with another warrior, I suggest your problems are more along the lines of PK'ing in general, rather than deathblow.

>>Vs. well-prepared:
>Would not my solution (automatic critical hit) be better in
>this situation?
>
>> The only warriors who stick around
>
>I hit flee button moment Rager bashes me (if I don’t intend to
>fight).
>But usually deathblow sends me to pit within 3 rounds.
>Sometimes even before bash lag wears off.
>
>Again – I don’t have that problem when I play mages. Figure
>out why.

Maybe because you prep your mages but not your warriors? What on earth would lead you to believe that you could be as successful without prepping the warrior?

>jaynus:
>>Deathblow is parriable/dodgable/blockable. Keep that in mind.
>If I am fighting an invoker who pulls off UNSPEAK's with a
>pillar, I have to RELY on a *RANDOM* skill to try to even it
>out. Think about it. Not only this, but without the head..
>Ragers are meat.
>
>Do warriors know how to cast pillars?
>Why warriors should be penalized because you are not satisfied
>how spellbane works?
>By the way, spellbane is not random.

>Theerkla
>>Deathblows can come on flurries, backstabs, and parting
>blows
>Only in parting blows.
>
>>"I have to RELY on a *RANDOM* skill to try to even it out"
>I don’t mind DB being random.
>I do mind it rips none-mages apart and basically not a factor
>at all with mages.



>Phaistus
>>>Each deathblow eats up a certain amount of mana? Nothing
>huge, maybe like 10 mana each deathblow whether it lands or
>not. It isn’t downgrading everything but it would make things
>a bit more interesting, no?
>
>This would annoy the hell out of ragers and would do
>absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
>Warriors do not possess skills to cripple mana.
>
>

With almost every other skill/spell/cabal power, there are several ways to lower it's effectiveness. And the amount of these ways, and difficulty of doing them, is directly dependant on the power of skill and ease of use. If it is more powerful, there is usually more that you can do and you can usually do it with less effort from yourself. On the other side, there are also usually several ways in which user of the skill can improve it and make it more interesting. This ensures that fights will be interesting and the result of them will be dependant on opponents skill.
Deathblow is however very different. It requires no effort at all on rager side, has no downsides for opponent to abuse and it is also pretty powerful(in fact, better than most cabal powers in the game). On the other hand, to defend against it, you HAVE to work, and you have to work HARD. Yes, there are ways to lower it's power, but all of them require much effort from you. How do I measure effort? Very easy, it is time. No matter who you are, you have to gather preps and it takes time. I will repeat, effort needed to use this power cannot be even compared to what is required to defend against it. This is what unbalanced. And when immortals make preparations more difficult to use, they only increase this gap.
I am almost sure, that people will say that ragers deserve such power. But that is another matter. The truth is, as cabal power deathblow is unbalanced.

My personal opinion is that deathblow isn't in need of being changed.

Out of curiousity, how many hero berserker ragers have you played?

First of all my observation:
90% of those who whine about deathblow never played a rager berseker
or ended it with a lowbie rager.

>My personal opinion is that deathblow isn't in need of being
>changed.
>
>Out of curiousity, how many hero berserker ragers have you
>played?

Deathblow is fine as it is.
Sure, it can kill you with extreme luck involved,
but so you can die to other things as well.
As an unprepared warrior I fear an "unspeaking" invoker much more
than an "unspeaking" rager.
The log of NNNick just shows that one person didn't parry rager's hits
while didn't hit him at once. He deserved to die.
Overall deathblow just slightly increase average damage of a berserker per fight. ( Because it doesn't happen too often )

And I like that deathblows let a rager to make feats of arms
and their bards would create tales about that
Also it gives to a rager a reason to show his courage
and stay in the fight which is goes bad.
Else it would be just sure death.

>First of all my observation:
>90% of those who whine about deathblow never played a rager
>berseker
>or ended it with a lowbie rager.

This works both ways. Most people who defend deathblow with passion are usually die-hard rager players who played few rager enemies. Both of these groups see the skill from only one side.

>Deathblow is fine as it is.
>Sure, it can kill you with extreme luck involved,
>but so you can die to other things as well.
>As an unprepared warrior I fear an "unspeaking" invoker much
>more
>than an "unspeaking" rager.

"Extreme luck". This is why we have hundreds of logs showing that deathblow changes outcome of the fight to opposite.

>The log of NNNick just shows that one person didn't parry
>rager's hits
>while didn't hit him at once. He deserved to die.

Actually, this log is perfect example of how unprepared warrior vs rager fight goes on. 95% of such fights are like that.
Also, what do you mean by "deserved to die"? What does it have to do with power of deathblow?

>Overall deathblow just slightly increase average damage of a
>berserker per fight. ( Because it doesn't happen too often )

It happens quite often and more often when rager fights unprepared warrior.

>And I like that deathblows let a rager to make feats of arms
>and their bards would create tales about that

Yes, it is sure quite nice to have power that allows you to kill opponent by pure luck when you are near death and your opponent is in perfect health.

>Also it gives to a rager a reason to show his courage
>and stay in the fight which is goes bad.
>Else it would be just sure death.

It actually gives a rager reason to fight people who are not their enemies and more often flee from people they are supposed to fight.

Deathblow can be designed to be more balanced and more interesting than it is now. Nobody just wants to do it.

>>First of all my observation:
>>90% of those who whine about deathblow never played a rager
>>berseker
>>or ended it with a lowbie rager.
>
>This works both ways. Most people who defend deathblow with
>passion are usually die-hard rager players who played few
>rager enemies. Both of these groups see the skill from only
>one side.

No, it doesn't work both ways.
Many hard core ragers play other classes as well.
Often they fight against deathblowing ragers.
So they know things from both sides.
By the way, you personally haven't played a rager
and that just supports my remark.


>>Deathblow is fine as it is.
>>Sure, it can kill you with extreme luck involved,
>>but so you can die to other things as well.
>>As an unprepared warrior I fear an "unspeaking" invoker much
>>more
>>than an "unspeaking" rager.
>
>"Extreme luck". This is why we have hundreds of logs showing
>that deathblow changes outcome of the fight to opposite.
>
>>The log of NNNick just shows that one person didn't parry
>>rager's hits
>>while didn't hit him at once. He deserved to die.
>
>Actually, this log is perfect example of how unprepared
>warrior vs rager fight goes on. 95% of such fights are like
>that.
>Also, what do you mean by "deserved to die"? What does it have
>to do with power of deathblow?

He deserved to do die because he received 4 attacks per 2 rounds
and didn't hit his opponent at once.
He died not because of deathblow but because of parry.


>>Overall deathblow just slightly increase average damage of a
>>berserker per fight. ( Because it doesn't happen too often )
>
>It happens quite often and more often when rager fights
>unprepared warrior.

No. You are wrong.
It doesn't happen often.
At hero average warrior has over 1000 hp.
It takes 10-12 hits to bring him down.
if one of those hits is deathblow, it is almost the same as
you manged to produce 13-15 hits instead of 10-12. ( db is x4 )
As you can see, average damage is increased by 20-30%.
It hardly can be called "overpowered".
And you rarely can see more than one deathblow per fight.


>>And I like that deathblows let a rager to make feats of arms
>>and their bards would create tales about that

>Yes, it is sure quite nice to have power that allows you to
>kill opponent by pure luck when you are near death and your
>opponent is in perfect health.

Perfect health opponents don't die to deathblows.
Prepared opponents rarely die to deathblows.
And I support the ability to land a rare lucky kill on unprepared foe,
as I said it gives a rager the possibility to make a feat of arms.


>>Also it gives to a rager a reason to show his courage
>>and stay in the fight which is goes bad.
>>Else it would be just sure death.
>
>It actually gives a rager reason to fight people who are not
>their enemies and more often flee from people they are
>supposed to fight.

If you think the only enemies who attacks ragers are mages
you are dead wrong.


>Deathblow can be designed to be more balanced and more
>interesting than it is now. Nobody just wants to do it.

Perhaps it is possible to desing it more intresting
yet I haven't see any good ideas yet that beats the current state
with deathblow.

>By the way, you personally haven't played a rager
>and that just supports my remark.

What does having to play rager have to do with ability to judge the power of skill? Nothing. Again, I am not arguing that ragers are overpowered. They are not. They just do not deserve such nice power in today's world.

>He deserved to do die because he received 4 attacks per 2
>rounds
>and didn't hit his opponent at once.
>He died not because of deathblow but because of parry.

Let us remove deathblow from this situation? Would he die? Most likely not. It means that deathblow played significant role in his death.

>>>Overall deathblow just slightly increase average damage of
>a
>>>berserker per fight. ( Because it doesn't happen too often
>
>>
>>It happens quite often and more often when rager fights
>>unprepared warrior.

>It doesn't happen often.

Please look at logs and you will see that it happens often.
And your caculation are simply wrong.

>And you rarely can see more than one deathblow per fight.
>>>And I like that deathblows let a rager to make feats of
>arms
>>>and their bards would create tales about that
>
>>Yes, it is sure quite nice to have power that allows you to
>>kill opponent by pure luck when you are near death and your
>>opponent is in perfect health.

>Perfect health opponents don't die to deathblows.

Sure they do. Look up some logs.

>Prepared opponents rarely die to deathblows.

This only means that you HAVE to prepare to fight berserkers. It has nothing to do with power of the skill.

>And I support the ability to land a rare lucky kill on
>unprepared foe,
>as I said it gives a rager the possibility to make a feat of
>arms.

I am not against abilities that help to make kill. However, such abilities, if they are powerful should have drawbacks or easy ways to reduce it's effectiveness. Deathblow does not have enough of this.

>>>Also it gives to a rager a reason to show his courage
>>>and stay in the fight which is goes bad.
>>>Else it would be just sure death.
>>It actually gives a rager reason to fight people who are not
>>their enemies and more often flee from people they are
>>supposed to fight.
>If you think the only enemies who attacks ragers are mages
>you are dead wrong.

Deathblow should not work only against mages. It should however, work better on overprepared targets(anyone) and much worse on unprepared warriors.

>
>>He deserved to do die because he received 4 attacks per 2
>>rounds
>>and didn't hit his opponent at once.
>>He died not because of deathblow but because of parry.
>
>Let us remove deathblow from this situation? Would he die?
>Most likely not. It means that deathblow played significant
>role in his death.

Ok, remove deathblow. You are 1) Not hitting your opponent. 2) Not parrying your opponent. That leads me to believe that you are not going to live through that fight.

On the flip side, if you can show me how to be successful without causing damage while soaking it up like a sponge*, I would very much appreciate it.

*Heralds and Acolytes not included.

>>First of all my observation:
>>90% of those who whine about deathblow never played a rager
>>berseker
>>or ended it with a lowbie rager.
>
>This works both ways. Most people who defend deathblow with
>passion are usually die-hard rager players who played few
>rager enemies. Both of these groups see the skill from only
>one side.

For all intensive purposes I've never played a rager.
Never went through that whole process.

However, I have been fighting against the ragers for as long as CF has been around, and I've been in masters/warlocks in one form or another nearly non-stop since the rise of the Ragnarok.

I've seen Deathblow go through changes, and I don't see any reason it should change now. I am not a die-hard rager, I'm a die-hard mage, and I've always ben a rager enemy. Exactly as they all say, if you parry you will survive. And try prepping well against that -naked- invoker who only needs one spell to end you, while you need to get atleast a few hits to take them out, if not exploiting their Vuln (Through shields).


Ragers need deathblow, its always had its point, and it helps separate the field-warrior from the elite-warrior.

>For all intensive purposes I've never played a rager.
>Never went through that whole process.

Ok.

>However, I have been fighting against the ragers for as long
>as CF has been around, and I've been in masters/warlocks in
>one form or another nearly non-stop since the rise of the
>Ragnarok.

I don't see any Masters or Warlocks anymore. In fact, I don't see anyone with ridiculous transform, yet db is still around. Go figure. I don't remember getting killed by db recently, if ever, but when newbies like Haljunei and Kacrick do nothing but rely on db to seal kills, that's just goo. Could Haljunei have killed the above warrior with preps had he not been a rager? Not likely. Could Haljunei have killed anyone without rager powers? Not likely, as proven by his lack of the head a few times.

>I've seen Deathblow go through changes, and I don't see any
>reason it should change now. I am not a die-hard rager, I'm
>a die-hard mage, and I've always ben a rager enemy. Exactly
>as they all say, if you parry you will survive. And try
>prepping well against that -naked- invoker who only needs one
>spell to end you, while you need to get atleast a few hits to
>take them out, if not exploiting their Vuln (Through
>shields).

What changes are these, pray tell. The only changes to db have been that you can't get db's off of certain skills anymore. Good luck parrying the 50 lb axe chief. You can lag an invoker. Lagging a berserker doesn't do much good when you're eating eradicates and unspeaks.

>Ragers need deathblow, its always had its point, and it helps
>separate the field-warrior from the elite-warrior.

I think what you meant to say was - It lets any idiot warrior destroy a non prepped opponent with literally no skill.

>My personal opinion is that deathblow isn't in need of being
>changed.

And here I thought you would give at least some counter-arguments to what was said or at least say why. Is it because it is not unbalanced compared to other cabal powers or because restrictions that are placed on ragers?

>Out of curiousity, how many hero berserker ragers have you
>played?

This question would make sense if the poster argued that ragers are overpowered. He is not. In fact, elsewhere he explicitly said that they are not overpowered. He asked about one power and how good it is.

It gives Rager berserkers an extremely powerful advantage at no cost (aside being Rager).

That's a pretty huge aside. Is Deathblow a good power? Sure. Do Ragers give up a lot for their powers? You bet. More than anyone.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>That's a pretty huge aside. Is Deathblow a good power? Sure. Do Ragers give up a lot for their powers? You bet. More than anyone.

Q: Are Ragers overpowered?
A: No.

Q: Is Deathblow overpowered?
A: Overall? No.

Q: In fight "Bash spamming Rager vs. skilled but unprotected warrior" who is going to win?
A: Rager.

Q: Because of?
A: Deathblow.

That's not necessarily true.

nt

Yes but how often is it just one rager against one warrior? All my rager experiences it's a horde against you most of the time. Either that or well-prepped people. The only warriors who stick around completely unprepped to fight a rager alone are either stupid, or very very good.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Deathblow is parriable/dodgable/blockable. Keep that in mind. If I am fighting an invoker who pulls off UNSPEAK's with a pillar, I have to RELY on a *RANDOM* skill to try to even it out. Think about it. Not only this, but without the head.. Ragers are meat.

I don't really care if deathblow changes or not, if any changes are going to be made to the village I'd prefer them to be grandiose sweeping changes or none at all. But I thought I'd point out some issues I have with your arguement.

"Deathblow is parriable/dodgable/blockable"
- Not all are. Deathblows can come on flurries, backstabs, and parting blows to name three attacks which are not parriable/dodgeable/blockable. Maybe more such anavoidable attacks are eligible for deathblows I've not done an exhaustive search

"I have to RELY on a *RANDOM* skill to try to even it out"
- That's my biggest problem with the skill is that it is random. I'd rather ragers get permanent +50 damage roll than deathblow. At least that way I can better tell when to cut and run. Basically whenever you fight a rager there is always a small chance you are going to lose 800 hp in a round. That makes it as deadly as a badass flurry, but with flurries, I can time when they may be coming and act accordingly. Deathblow is, as you said, random.

"Not only this, but without the head.. Ragers are meat."
- Let's say there WAS a skill everyone would agree is grossly overpowered (Uncle Floofi's cross-eyed look of insta-death). Should ragers get that power just because they are weak without the head? This is a spurious arguement. No matter how weak they are without the head doesn't mean they should be made too powerful when they have it.

Not that I'm really interested in arguing on BOTH boards about this skill (which by the way, won't be changed - I can guarantee it), I think a reply is in line.

- Not all are. Deathblows can come on flurries, backstabs, and parting blows to name three attacks which are not parriable/dodgeable/blockable. Maybe more such anavoidable attacks are eligible for deathblows I've not done an exhaustive search

= I have never seen a deathblow hit on a flurry, even from someone as Flurryingly-Bearlike as Zhelrantix. I haven't seen many thieves in Battle as of late, but I'm 50% sure that doesn't kick in with backstab/knife. Parting blow, yes. I have killed some people on a parting blow. But again, thats the point of the skill.

- That's my biggest problem with the skill is that it is random. I'd rather ragers get permanent +50 damage roll than deathblow. At least that way I can better tell when to cut and run. Basically whenever you fight a rager there is always a small chance you are going to lose 800 hp in a round. That makes it as deadly as a badass flurry, but with flurries, I can time when they may be coming and act accordingly. Deathblow is, as you said, random.

= If you fight a rager and don't have the appropriate preps, you most likely WILL die. From my experience, this is what the point of the cabal is. As well, if I'm only doing 'grazes' and 'mauls' to a player, a deathblow will (at best) do a 'devastates!'. I have logs to prove this, they are on the log board.

And last

"Not only this, but without the head.. Ragers are meat."
- Let's say there WAS a skill everyone would agree is grossly overpowered (Uncle Floofi's cross-eyed look of insta-death). Should ragers get that power just because they are weak without the head? This is a spurious arguement. No matter how weak they are without the head doesn't mean they should be made too powerful when they have it.

= For one, ragers aren't "too powerful". Anyone who argues this probably hasn't played a berserker in the past few years, if at all. Second, it makes a HUGE difference. The Village is all or nothing. With the head, they usually can rock some ####. Without, they are meat. This is the point of the cabal and the way its setup, think about it. I can say with relative confidence that I can count on one hand the number of times I died with the head, whereis without the head I died constantly (part of my role).

You seem to have a jaded opinon on Berserkers and the Village. I suggest you try playing one now, rather then bitching about it on both the official and unofficial boards. Call it a polite suggestion

Have fun!

>= I have never seen a deathblow hit on a flurry, even from
>someone as Flurryingly-Bearlike as Zhelrantix. I haven't seen
>many thieves in Battle as of late, but I'm 50% sure that
>doesn't kick in with backstab/knife. Parting blow, yes. I have
>killed some people on a parting blow. But again, thats the
>point of the skill.

To rape a non-prepped warrior class?

>= If you fight a rager and don't have the appropriate preps,
>you most likely WILL die. From my experience, this is what the
>point of the cabal is. As well, if I'm only doing 'grazes' and
>'mauls' to a player, a deathblow will (at best) do a
>'devastates!'. I have logs to prove this, they are on the log
>board.

Well roll on my swizzle stick and call me Andy. Since when has CF been about prep whores? As for grazes and mauls, well hey, maybe next time you'll think ahead and play a scout.

>= For one, ragers aren't "too powerful". Anyone who argues
>this probably hasn't played a berserker in the past few years,
>if at all. Second, it makes a HUGE difference. The Village is
>all or nothing. With the head, they usually can rock some
>####. Without, they are meat. This is the point of the cabal
>and the way its setup, think about it. I can say with relative
>confidence that I can count on one hand the number of times I
>died with the head, whereis without the head I died constantly
> part of my role).

Then there are the ragers who don't even bother showing up when the head is missing. AIM is such a lovely thing isn't it. You might be the amazing exception, Abernyte's bastard child or whatever, but villagers lately have been a joke, Zhel/Zylun aka the shady duo included.

>You seem to have a jaded opinon on Berserkers and the Village.
>I suggest you try playing one now, rather then bitching about
>it on both the official and unofficial boards. Call it a
>polite suggestion

Hmmm, how about you play a non caballed, rager hating warrior. '####ING DEATHBLOW ####! #### THIS ####, I'M MAKING ANOTHER RAGER! ####ER!'

Each deathblow eats up a certain amount of mana? Nothing huge, maybe like 10 mana each deathblow whether it lands or not. It isnt downgrading everything but it would make things a bit more interesting, no?

Ragers barely have enough mana as it is. Plus 90% of deathblows don't land because they are blocked. So this would be a huge downgrade.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Yeah deathblows are blocked a lot of the time but I wouldnt say 90%. Secondly, I have had a total of two ragers in my lifetime so I am no expert but I always had tons of mana to throw around. I was a human with one char and a felar with the other and the only ragers I noticed who ran out of mana a lot were defenders.

You have made it much harder to prep.

1. abs is not easy, shield and aura is not that hard but barrier is quite hard to get.

2. Normal preps are limited, so you really cannot use them all the time. But against a rager you will need shield+stoneskin+haste try and counter resistance and parts of thirst, that only leaves some damroll and deathblow.

I could live with all this, until I realised that the village no longer have the active imms that monitor them. Call me whiny, but it is easy to make it harder for the prepping classes(both preps and cabal powers) and not change the village one bit, even allowing them to gang more or less(Assume this because the "gangers" get rewards).

>That's a pretty huge aside. Is Deathblow a good power? Sure.
> Do Ragers give up a lot for their powers? You bet. More
>than anyone.

Give up what exactly? Potions of return/flight/transportation/translucence/dam redux? Oh boohoo, that's such a huge problem. What do you need returns for when after hitting a random PC you go and sit in the village until said PC logs off. What do you need flight for when you're a cloud giant/arial? What? You're a felar? cb HELP! I'SA ME, MARIO, I'SA BEEN BLACKJACKED ON EASTERN! Translucence? Just kill the mob and grab the keys, you're neutral/evil anyway no prob. Dam redux? Slap mah fro! I gots me some resistin' yo!

Let's do a quick comparison with PC1 and PC2. Both are arials, but pc1 is a rager, and pc2 is a non rager. Let's assume that there are no evil and wiley Scions on to steal the ragers head. Not even that one lone Scion. Pc2 wants to be a badass, so he preps himself to be a match for pc1. Ok, let's start with protection, that's easy. But wait, pc1 is neutral so #### that. Ok, stone skin, yay! Oops, I just got softened, poisoned and famished for 30 hours. ####. Shield! By this time you've been gathering preps for about 30 minutes real time, and have a mobdeath to boot. Oh, you got shield! Go you. Oops, shield potion evaporated. Let's try um... haste. Blinded AND slowed? WTF? Why? Pc2 logs off. Meanwhile, pc1 calls resist and spellbane and continues breaking into random guilds in Galadon because he's bored. But wait, he's screwed, he has no recall potion, he doesn't have 20 different escape routes from the city. Nor does he have truesight to cure blindness, oh wait, he's got both. He also has 5 routes leading to the village. Haa haa suckers! I laugh at your wanted flag while I'm spamming eq here in the village.

Dearest Mr. Immortal, may we have dam redux and more on a stick if we gives up our precious potion of return?

I hope that post was intended to be humorous to someone, because it's one of the single worst analyses I've ever seen.

Open questions for you to think about: Why do Ragers uniformly put up high death totals? Why do they lead the league in con-deaths? Any gear they can't use? Any drawbacks to their vaunted powers? Any places they can't go, or can't escape? Any class abilities that they can't reverse/cure by any means?

I'll pre-quote Nepenthe on this one: Play a hero Rager. Then look back on the deaths you took, and why you took them, and tell me they don't give anything up. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you haven't done this.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>I hope that post was intended to be humorous to someone,
>because it's one of the single worst analyses I've ever seen.

Yes, I hope it made someone smile.

>Open questions for you to think about: Why do Ragers
>uniformly put up high death totals? Why do they lead the
>league in con-deaths? Any gear they can't use? Any drawbacks
>to their vaunted powers? Any places they can't go, or can't
>escape? Any class abilities that they can't reverse/cure by
>any means?

I'll put the con-jive into three parts. 1, several ragers, whom I won't mention, take the con-death way out to savor their PK ratios. 2, they play gutsy chars who charge into groups of players. Gee, I could do that with any cabal, but only a rager would get any kind of reward out of it, depending on the IMM. 3, they're newbies playing their first rager.

As for gear, uh, when ragers stop wearing rings that turn you invis with a keyword, I'll believe that they can't wear anything remotely as cool as the other kids.

Drawbacks? Ya, I guess accidentally deathblowing your opponent in 2 rounds instead of 5 rounds is pretty bad.

Any abilities? I've seen ragers pull some pretty shady crap, so I won't even bother with that one.

>I'll pre-quote Nepenthe on this one: Play a hero Rager. Then
>look back on the deaths you took, and why you took them, and
>tell me they don't give anything up. I'm going to take a wild
>guess and say that you haven't done this.

I'm going to take a wild guess and wager that you haven't played a single hero rager. I'm also going to take another wild guess, and wager that you haven't played a warrior to hero ranks, ever.

Just to test my previous example of arial vs arial, I spent 30 minutes of real time gathering preps for a hero level warrior. Here's how it went. I got some potions of flight. I didn't bother with pass door because this is supposed to take 30 mins. I went and got some potions of protection. Easy enough. Stone skin was next, but what's this? I only manage to get one because they're limited for some wacky reason. There goes my chance to have anything on par with resist, a non limited 'prep'. I could of course go with the old 'stone skin from a certain town' alternative, but really, do I want to get a 2-3 tick hold in the midst of a pk? Or level 55 or whatever poison? No. To boot, they're probably limited now too. I go for shield, which is a bitch, but hey, it's shield, but guess what, that's so limited that it's not even there!

How the #### you think this is in someway a level playingfield with highly limited preps is beyond my ####ing comprehension. Oooh, but what about that lone conjie that's about to gaunt me to whitecloaks/random cursed area? Yeah, teleport and return are really going to save my ass.

Please put Grogim on the phone, and let's hear his comments, because you spouting Nepenthe quotes isn't convincing anyone.

>>I hope that post was intended to be humorous to someone,
>>because it's one of the single worst analyses I've ever
>seen.
>
>Yes, I hope it made someone smile.

Certainly made me smile, but doubtfully for the reason you intended.

>
>>Open questions for you to think about: Why do Ragers
>>uniformly put up high death totals? Why do they lead the
>>league in con-deaths? Any gear they can't use? Any
>drawbacks
>>to their vaunted powers? Any places they can't go, or can't
>>escape? Any class abilities that they can't reverse/cure by
>>any means?
>
>I'll put the con-jive into three parts. 1, several ragers,
>whom I won't mention, take the con-death way out to savor
>their PK ratios. 2, they play gutsy chars who charge into
>groups of players. Gee, I could do that with any cabal, but
>only a rager would get any kind of reward out of it, depending
>on the IMM. 3, they're newbies playing their first rager.

You are conveniently closing your eyes to the truth of the matter. Let's discuss: How does taking a con death way out make for a better pkratio? If their ratio is good, why are they con dying? You don't make sense. Gutsy characters are always rewarded one way or the other, though not necessarily from the imms. They get respect from other characters. And it is not only ragers do it, most of the highly charged cabals do it, i.e. marans, sylvans, villagers, sometimes a tribunal. Indeed, it is the tribunal who does that well that becomes a vindicator at times. And I don't recall seeing why it is bad to be a newbie or charge in and fight. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose, but that's the way of it regardless of cabal, no? So con dying as a villager must be for some other reason.

>
>As for gear, uh, when ragers stop wearing rings that turn you
>invis with a keyword, I'll believe that they can't wear
>anything remotely as cool as the other kids.

Please name for me the countless villager hoardes who wore this ring. Considering it can only be worn by one race, and considering that most people don't know about the prog on that ring at all, I'm going to say you're just wrong. What's more, I'd like to see a log of your character telling a villager that the ring has that magical affect and the villager keeping it anyway. You haven't a clue what you're talking about here. Every villager I know of, and I know a lot, removes all magic items and destroys them whenever they are discovered. If you think otherwise you're just wrong.

>
>Drawbacks? Ya, I guess accidentally deathblowing your opponent
>in 2 rounds instead of 5 rounds is pretty bad.

Yeah, that does suck. What a shame that only one of the three villager paths gets deathblow, and that every single character in the game can defend against it, since all classes learn parry. And some dodge. And others even more defensive abilities. And if you don't want to eat a deathblow you know what? You can not fight the villager. Unless you're a mage I guess, but you are discussing yourself as a warrior, so we'll let that go. Or wait, are you a scion warrior? Or Empire warrior? Well gee, probably don't have about a zillion magi/clerical friends who can give you all the things you need to protect yourself. Forgot about that eh?

>
>Any abilities? I've seen ragers pull some pretty shady crap,
>so I won't even bother with that one.

Right. "I know bad stuff goes on but I won't tell you what it is." Ok. Thanks.

>
>>I'll pre-quote Nepenthe on this one: Play a hero Rager.
>Then
>>look back on the deaths you took, and why you took them, and
>>tell me they don't give anything up. I'm going to take a
>wild
>>guess and say that you haven't done this.
>
>I'm going to take a wild guess and wager that you haven't
>played a single hero rager. I'm also going to take another
>wild guess, and wager that you haven't played a warrior to
>hero ranks, ever.
>

I have. Many times.

>Just to test my previous example of arial vs arial, I spent 30
>minutes of real time gathering preps for a hero level warrior.
>Here's how it went. I got some potions of flight. I didn't
>bother with pass door because this is supposed to take 30
>mins. I went and got some potions of protection. Easy enough.
>Stone skin was next, but what's this? I only manage to get one
>because they're limited for some wacky reason. There goes my
>chance to have anything on par with resist, a non limited
>'prep'. I could of course go with the old 'stone skin from a
>certain town' alternative, but really, do I want to get a 2-3
>tick hold in the midst of a pk? Or level 55 or whatever
>poison? No. To boot, they're probably limited now too. I go
>for shield, which is a bitch, but hey, it's shield, but guess
>what, that's so limited that it's not even there!
>

What all of this ignores (and I'm on your side in the I don't like the prep requirements of the game generally mind you) is your ability to get all this from players. You have transmuter or healer or invoker or whatever friends that can give you most and better than these preps. Or other warriors who can give you items to prep with, or locations or what have you.

>How the #### you think this is in someway a level playingfield
>with highly limited preps is beyond my ####ing comprehension.
>Oooh, but what about that lone conjie that's about to gaunt me
>to whitecloaks/random cursed area? Yeah, teleport and return
>are really going to save my ass.
>

Again you are closing your eyes to the obvious truth of the matter in so many ways. If you think the whitecloak area is the only, or even worst place to be brought, you're on the crack. Hell, in the two most major cities in the game there are places most villagers cannot escape and are just sitting targets for magi to come and try them out. And when a villager loses his non-magical clothing and needs to get more, he can't exactly go everywhere, like areas that require flight, or areas that require magical items to navigate or enter or surivive.

>Please put Grogim on the phone, and let's hear his comments,
>because you spouting Nepenthe quotes isn't convincing anyone.

Actually, the rarity of me agreeing with Valg is enough to convince most anyone I should think, but even if not you should be quiet because you're just wrong on all counts. Sorry.

And it isn't magically flagged, so the villagers wearing easily might not have known. Would have been funny as hell to get Grogim (I believe he had it) or one of the others to get the prog to go off.

No, seriously, I mean it. I'm challenging you to play a hero Battle berserker warrior for a while. Get to hero and stick it out for, let's say, at least a hundred hours of play once there.

Maybe you'll hate it. Maybe you'll never want to play Battle again. Maybe you'll still think deathblow is horrifically broken (though I'll still disagree with you).

Either way, I guarantee you will find dozens of weak points in RBW that you don't see now and you will for the rest of your CF career be better set up to fight and kill them.

Every argument in this entire thread has come down to: Battle warrior with Deathblow is very, very good in this situation. Well, no kidding. In case you haven't noticed, there are a whole lot of characters in CF that, given a set of circumstances that favors them greatly, will win more than not. I guess if you pretend the whole world is wilderness, empowerment is automatic, and the moon is always full, druid looks pretty awesome too. Same thing.