Hello all.

*** This is only my opinion as a game designer and producer of other games, not MUD, but MMO/MMORPG. I humbly ask you not to flame and be constructive here. ***

I just did read of Loshak's hell-trip and it's result, and wanted to share some thoughts about permagrouping (mostly with imms).

Permagrouping (c) is not allowed. I foresee answer, "This will not change", but first, please think about next things.

1. MUD/MMO games are social games. People are playing to interract, to play together vs other groups or play PvE (and mostly - cooperative gameplay). It's fine in CF, but players cannot socialize due to age death. They are dying, losing their firends/allies and many leaving game after that (I know at least five players who left for this reason).

2. CF players are hardcore players. Those, who want to make OOC groups, are making them despite on the rules, getting to Satan and (sometimes) getting banned. But rest of players are not doing that. As a result, "cheaters" are exploring hell down to 9th circle, getting Satan marks, while players that do not break rules will, mostly, never get there. So who against this rule... "cheaters" who simply ignore it, or 99% of other players?

3. If this rule will be removed, players will team up. They will socialize (not all, but most hardcore of them). Yes, they will play all together, in team - but there will be far more than one team. Teamplay isn't bad thing.

4. People who wanted to play in team already doing so, as I see from coordinated logins/logouts (I do not complain about it, because I think it's not a bad thing and must be allowed).

6. If players will contact each other out of the game, they WILL stay in game for MUCH longer time. It is guaranteed. In all projects where I was imm/admin/developer, I've seen that players who are in the same clan AND organized skype group or teamspeak group, are staying for years. Big plus of it - they bring new players, teach them, help them out of the game. And it's totally good.

7. Such teams will play against Imms, and this will give additional work to imms. It will be a lot harder to create challenges for them, to keep supersecret info in secret. This is why ST is closed, and Hell was closed more than once, correct? Minus of this - you will have to rework areas. In that case, game design must expect that players are sharing info and this should not be a problem. If players can share info... they WILL do it. If you design your game knowing it, counting on it - it will not cause any harm. Think about it.

So, perhaps it's time to become modern game, accept socialization and move forward, instead of denying more and more players for their absolutely normal and expected acts? Take any modern MMORPG. Every clan there have not only clan channel, but very often - it's own web-site, flash chat, #irc room, teamspeak or skype conference. This is GOOD. And, you cannot fight it anyways (I repeat: by fighting with this, you are giving "cheaters" advantage above "right" people and do not letting your own PB to grow).

And no, I do not have OOC buddies/connections and do not plan to make hell-group, so I do not look for my personal gain.

The problem with your whole argument is that at one time, what you want were the rules of CF.

I'm not interested in playing that game again.

How can you have OOC groups that are evil-aligned and are RP'd correctly? OOC groups like that absolutely won't betray each other and will generally act nicely. Correctly played evil isn't like that. You can argue that nobody plays evil correctly, and maybe you're right, but part of being evil is supposed to be that you can't necessarily trust your allies or so-called friends. What happens to that dynamic if we're allowing OOC groups? Do they have to be good-aligned?

You seem to assume that evil betrays everyone everytime. But, even they need allies and companionship. If they are an asset to his lifestyle, why would an evil person abandon useful people, willing to help them out.

Being evil isn't a black and white thing.

You could say that:

Evil = Mostly black with some gray and maybe a drop of white.

Balanced = Mostly gray, with some black and white.

Good = Mostly white with a touch of gray and maybe a drop of black.

Anyway, it's more interesting when things don't fall into clear-cut stereotypes.

It is more about creating unfair advantages than anything else. It isn't about socialization at all.

I say we enable an OOC global channel, masked in the same manner as the newbie channel. Talking about any in-game stuff on global = loss of global channel.

I'm not really all that big on this, myself. It's just a suggestion which would I think would help create a friendlier player base.

Dude, that's a bad idea.

nt

I agree that it isn't about socialization at all. Socializing with other CFers does not mean you have to play active characters with malicious intentions together (some sort of group that you are convinced is OP). When you start playing active characters with malicious intentions together, sure you might overpower your pk range, but things that make the game special are lost.

First - Don't you think it's at all exciting to guess who is playing which character? In general, people within the cf community jump on the chance to speculate who is playing whom.

Second - It diminishes the opportunity to naturally develop your character. In my experience with my personal long lived characters, I've always managed to find a "best friend". Their roleplay does something to fulfill my own, and while I'm playing my character, if they're on, it makes my experience so much more awesome. Not only do I develop a "best friend" type, but I have a whole network of characters that my character expands from. If this was something forced from an ooc connection it simply wouldn't be as fun. Mystery is something that makes CF magical, when that's taken away then it makes any idea of playing the game as intended seem bland.

nt

And this is why:

1. You create character.
2. You gain friends - really good friends, you LIKE to play with them.
3. They delete/you delete/age die.
4. You lost them forever
5. You have to begin from ZERO.
6. If you are new player, or not vet, you have HIGH chance to leave for good.

This is anti-social system. This is anti-newbie system. This is anti-player system. Tell me, why it is good for player or CF? I know two reasons, but I'd like to hear your opinion.

P.S. About #4: You lost them forever unless you are a hardcore player, you manage to find them on forums, PM them and find them OOC. In this way, only vets/"cheaters" (that are not cheaters actually, but absolutely normal, involved players) are winning. Rest of players keep sucking.

I've suggested to add player accounts before - accounts, on which everyone can find each other, contact each other, get know each other and so-ci-a-li-ze. This is very, very important.

Why do you think ####ty MUDs with ####ty areras, ####ty quests and ####ty (zero) RP are on the top? Because they give players socialization. Socialization is not future anymore, it's requirement for a successful and popular game. Any game.

Actually, you have choice - to listen how CF is dying for years, ban "permagroups" and fight with the windmills, or accept it and use it for good of CF and it's community.

You are affraid that people will know each other and share OOC info? Don't be affraid. Those, who want to do it, doing it and you cannot prevent it in any ways. I repeat: you cannot fight it. Instead, you should make it harmless for the game.

>Actually, you have choice - to listen how CF is dying for years,
>ban "permagroups" and fight with the windmills, or accept it and
>use it for good of CF and it's community.

>Instead, you should make it harmless for the game.

Hahahaha, I can't even stop laughing long enough to form a response to this statement. Steamrolling perma's are great for the game, how could they POSSIBLY drive anyone away?

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Steamrolling permas aren't much worse than snide, belittling posts from game administrators on public forums.

Slight tangent: I feel like there's attitude that there's this "ideal vision" of what CF SHOULD be, and that CF has some kind of amazing magical in-game atmosphere created by specific game mechanics that're so delicately balanced that the game would implode if we ever tweaked anything.

Sooner or later there's going to be a choice that has to be made: Either we maintain our weird-ass principles and attempt to preserve that mystical integrity CF is supposed to have until the ship runs aground, OR we make some major changes to CF mechanics in an attempt to extend its lifespan.

Personally, at this point, I think it's time to start dry-running some of these major changes. At the very least, CF probably won't die any sooner than it would have if you hadn't experimented with it. At best, you could buy a few more years, or even boost the numbers. In my mind, "die sooner" or "potentially maybe die a little less soon" is a pretty easy decision to make.

Splntrd

I don't think CF will die. I just think CF will not grow.

CF is a mystical... monolith. It's amazingly conservative.
Life is going on. Things changes, people changes... CF does not (I'm not talking about areas and some class changes, that is a great work).

As a result, CF is a game of the past. Almost of 2000 year. During passed 10 years a lot changed in community and players. Those, who understands it, having huge auditories. Those, who doesn't, are big fishes in small ponds.

Answering the question, how does steamrolling hurts the game:

1. It's bring negative to the community because players gets blocked for their natural desire to play with their friends. It's total nonsense. I repeat, we are social beings, we wants to play with friends. Playing with friends IS GOOD. It is fact. You cannot make such friends IC.

2. It's forbids other players to get know each other better, to help newbie players. Best way to learn CF is to play with your friends, that is sitting near you (or virtually) and explaining you things that he can't explain IC. Fact? Fact. Allowed? No. ####.

3. It's SREIOUSLY demotivates to bring your friends to the game. Why will I bring someone and play with someone, if we will get banned?! Probably, this is worst of it. Instead of "bring your friends and gains the prize for that" you made "bring your friends, play with them some and GET BANNED, ####ER!". This is not ridiculous, and if you are laughing on it, you need to calm down, realise that you are human in real life and that some people may tell you things that you do not understand.

4. Whats wrong with good, coordinated team? Anyways they naturally appears in the game from time to time and wiping their PK range. And almost no one can resist. So, if there would be allowed "permas", they would have resistance.

5. You don't know who is perma and who is not. From time to time, you ban innocent people. And even if not, innocent players are risking. Personally, when I see that my playing time match with some good player, I am thinking: "If I'll play with him again today, will they ban me for perma? I have no way to prove that I've no idea who is it. I better log off or play alone today". This system discourages to play together even with players that you do not have OOC connection.

I'm pretty sure there are many other reasons why you should not laugh, Zulg, but you should sit down and think deeply.

And the other half is stupid.

Yes for truthfull trolls.

>1. It's bring negative to the community because players gets
>blocked for their natural desire to play with their friends.
>It's total nonsense. I repeat, we are social beings, we wants
>to play with friends. Playing with friends IS GOOD. It is
>fact. You cannot make such friends IC.

This is false. You can play with your friends. You cannot exploit Out-of-Character (OOC) mechanisms to create an advantage in the game.

>2. It's forbids other players to get know each other better,
>to help newbie players. Best way to learn CF is to play with
>your friends, that is sitting near you (or virtually) and
>explaining you things that he can't explain IC. Fact? Fact.
>Allowed? No. ####.

I've yet to see anyone get banned/denied for helping out a newbie in this fashion. I have seen people get banned/denied for completely gearing up their friends without a single piece of in-game conversation.

>I'm pretty sure there are many other reasons why you should
>not laugh, Zulg, but you should sit down and think deeply.

I've sat down and thought deeply. At the end of the day, people do play with their friends here succesfully and don't get banned.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

... I went ooc constantly, talking with my RL buddies oocly via tells and says in Swedish. I also did gear-transfers, geared up my RL buddies etc. (Mostly out of ignorance to the rules that I had never read. This was 10 years ago btw.)

I got smited a bunch and talked to. When I returned to CF 5-6 years later, I still hadn't read the rules and quite frankly forgot a lot about those conversations... I did a gear transfers, got summoned ROTD, talked to, I read the rules and I THINK I got a gear-purge as well. Not certain though but quite resonable.

Then later I was summoned to the ROTD about me selling items to an RL buddy (I think we had used each others comp at some point, that's how they knew by IPs I suppose) in a regular fashion. We talked about it a bit and it was sorted out that it wasn't any form of cheating. (I think I was selling midnight armors or something.) No punishments or anything. That was my last visist to the ROTD.

What I'm trying to say is that even though I was a repeat offender obviously, they listened to my story, were polite etc. I doubt many (if any) innocents are severely hurt by this.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

That's the funny thing about this. Nobody says you can't play with your friends. Forming permagroups to gain an unfair advantage is wrong though.

Scenario:

Friend 1 : Let's play some <insert cabal/group here>!
Friend 2 : Okay!
Friend 3 : I'm in!

Friend 1 : First one to <insert amount> pks wins this round!
Friend 2 : But, you must have have a pkratio below <insert ratio here>!
Friend 3 : Cya in the fields suckers, I am already rolling a new character!

Friend 1 : Let's play some <insert cabal/group here>!
Friend 2 : Okay!
Friend 3 : I'm in!
Friend 2 : Will you teach me how to play this cabal? What's their ways, phylosohpy, goals?
Friend 1 : Sure!
Friend 3 : Great, I'd like to hear that too, always been curious of their ways.

Friend 1 : First one to <insert amount> pks wins this round!
Friend 2 : But, you must have have a pkratio below <insert ratio here>!
Friend 3 : Cya in the fields suckers, I am already rolling a new character!
Friend 1 : Bah... no, I will play alone, again hordes, in empty cabal and you will plainy in this cabal X, full of players now? No, thanks, that's unfair.
Friend 2 : So what? Build your cabal, bring newbies, promote you as a leader!
Friend 3 : Cabal X, Y and Z are in big hole. I'd play that cabal if you would join me, together we would raise it... but if you are playing cabal Y - no, thanks. I'll better play low/mid ranked conjie and rape all noobs in my range - this way I'll beat you, suckers.
Friend 1 : Then I'll play level 20 fire swordspec with midnight dragon stuff, sure I'll beat your PK score!


---------
Such theoretical talks are nonsense. You don't know how other players interract, you don't know what they want and what they agree to. I assure you - I ASSURE you that your second option is NOT a way in which players that have OOC connection are playing. This is utopia, and YOU know that yourself. Don't say you do not, because this is ####.

That's exactly how my friends and I played for years. I don't know what place you are thinking about, but I have always played games for the CHALLENGE, not the simple walkthrough. What you want is an I WIN button. It doesn't exist here. Get over it.

I, personally, do not need it at all. I'm hardcore and skilled enough player, I can get it all IC. Even build group for hell-trips IC is not a big problem for me.

But for new players this sucks. For casual players this sucks. For players who want to play together this sucks.

Cooperative game mode rocks, you can't deny it. Cooperative PvE is the key for success. Too bad you don't want to understand it and prefering to live in a closed room with closed windows, doors, turned off phone, TV and internet

Look at successful games and ask yourself, what are you doing wrong.

Of course, if you accept this idea - that you DO something wrong.

Because imho, but you think that CF made better than anything else and is a flawless game project, and youare flawless immortals and you know everything better than anyone else.

>
>Because imho, but you think that CF made better than anything
>else and is a flawless game project, and youare flawless
>immortals and you know everything better than anyone else.

If you're as good at CF as you say you are, then I think you are too smart to act so obtusely.

CF is not a flawless game, but what you are proposing certainly isn't the answer. The immortal staff has REPEATEDLY said that you are able to play with your friends, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT GET AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. I am not sure from your posts that you understand what this means. Example:

Istendil has arrived.
Istendil utters the word 'grzzs'
You yell 'Help! Istendil is attacking me!'
You fall into a deep sleep.

AIM:

anti: Istendil's got me asleep on Eastern Road.
friend: Ok, on my way.
anti: Hurry, he's spelling me up.

This, and other similar examples*, are against the rules. Again, I think you are too smart to deny that this would happen even more should the immortals relax the rules on OOC connections. Similarly, how could a new player (or even a group of new players grouped OOC) hope to compete against the vets in this case? It won't happen.

The rules regarding OOC are adequate as is.





*Such as rolling complimentary PK combos with the sole purpose of clearning out your range (AP and thief, maybe)

I agree with your example, this is not good. And no, I've been talking not about that.

I disagree with example of Loshnak and his friends, who made a party to go to hell and got banned because they were good organized and rolled characters special for hell.

As I understand, they didn't cleared their PK range. With some of them they didn't meet before and even killed each other one or two times.

This is what I think is wrong and anti-social.

There is another way - good marketing.

There are probably lots of other things that could be done to benefit CF. Marketing is certainly one of them, and we've seen some benefits from marketing efforts already. I'd also add that mechanics changes are meaningless WITHOUT marketing effort. But a marketing effort ALONE won't be BETTER than marketing + anything else.

Splntrd

The goal is to create an unfair advantage for people who have OOC info sharing circles?

In anti's world 2+2=5, apparently.

I've always felt that the lack of socialization has hurt the player count. As with any game there are players who want to figure out the puzzles and players who want to read the "cheat sheet." Personally I generally want to figure out the puzzles but after multiple hours spent each day for several days I pretty much will start googling solutions to game puzzles.

I tried to be creative about this by creating a character whose entire role was based around a specific quest in game that I've never been able to figure out completely. I was hoping some immortal would pick up on it and nudge me. Possibly just my bad luck/timing but after over 50 hours in the character spending tons of time running around talking to other PCs about this quest I just deleted because it didn't seem possible to get the answer I was looking for. Conversely, getting wand information IC seems like a walk in the proverbial park.

Frankly, if I thought I knew someone OOC who knew the solution I'd definitely cheat for the solution to the puzzle. I don't share quest info or wand info with anyone OOC, but I sure wouldn't feel an ounce of guilt about someone feeding me this particular solution. Cumulatively I've spent over 100 RL hours on this quest and at the end of that there's zero satisfaction. For all I know the quest is broken. I'm all for the spirit of figuring stuff out but at some point it just ruins the fun, at least for me.

Obviously I only speak for myself but it wouldn't bother me at all if I figured out the puzzle in 10 hours but someone else read it from a buddy's list and got it in 10 minutes. I mean, they're already doing that anyways, right?

When Olgakar asks if you can help him say, "Yes" or "Aye" if you are a Minotaur.

dsbsdb

Nah, I've given up on necros for a while. I suck SOO bad at them. Shoot me an e-mail some time man. theg33k at gmail.

mine is mobondsman@yahoo.com

See? Those, who want to exchange OOC contacts, WILL do it.

And you can't ban them for that. And you have NO idea what they will talk about, if they make perma or share wands list, quest info or something else.

There's no rule agianst talking to people.

I haven't talked to Rade in a year. The last time I did the topic was about Firearms.

I didn't ask him a thing about any CF stuff. It came up maybe twice.

nt

sdfbsdvb

I'm just proving that people make OOC connections and it's impossible to prevent/deny. And if some of them do that, it must be officially allowed.

Furthermore, for new players, it must be *recommended*. Environment for that should be created - something like player base + contacts on the forum, perhaps? So everyone could sign there and leave their contacts, and be able to give link to their profile in game.

So, again - immortals will lose nothing, but gain more alive playerbase. New players will survive better, old players will return more often, because many of them would like not to play CF, but would like to play with their friends.

nt

>I'm just proving that people make OOC connections and it's
>impossible to prevent/deny. And if some of them do that, it
>must be officially allowed.

Once again, it is allowed. You are completely missing the point.

>
>Furthermore, for new players, it must be *recommended*.
>Environment for that should be created - something like player
>base + contacts on the forum, perhaps? So everyone could sign
>there and leave their contacts, and be able to give link to
>their profile in game.

Boring. I have better things to do with my time. If you want to build your own email accounts, feel free.

>
>So, again - immortals will lose nothing, but gain more alive
>playerbase. New players will survive better, old players will
>return more often, because many of them would like not to play
>CF, but would like to play with their friends.

As long as they aren't gaining an unfair advantage, what's the problem? Do you know what unfair advantage means? If you ABUSE ooc channels doesn't mean USE ooc channels. Mind you, if someone turns in your OOC channel for abuse and it is deemed as abuse, completely and totally at our discretion, you will have to deal with the punishment we choose to give you.

If this is the Akan castle quest it is in fact broken, Valg a few years back said they'd fix it but don't think anything ever happened.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Some imm told me 2-3 years ago that imm, who made that area is gone and they have no idea what to do with it.

edited to remove info because I don't want to give any hints...

Are there quests that show up in the quest command that don't work? There are lots of mobs who will talk to you, make random mention of something, but aren't hooked up to any sort of quest/reward.

If you've got specific questions you can shoot me an email.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Sent!