I'm sick of seeing one sentence responses and locked threads, with responses like "Players like you don't DESERVE the whole story." He's clearly not advocating for himself, but the entire playerbase.

The playerbase DESERVES to be treated like adults, like they have SOME input in how THEIR game is ran. If the option we're choosing is to withhold information and shut down discussion, then yeah, you're going to get a lot of very angry, confused players, and in my opinion, you've got it coming.

There are more civilized, responsible, respectful, and constructive ways to deal with an explosive situation than to simply play the reactionist. Be proactive. If not all of the info's there, that's easy to rectify. But not while you guys hide behind locked threads and a vague sense of superiority. As long as this continues, it's not going to get better.

Having participated in the administration of several large-scale games, and having administrated forums for these, I have to say anymore it seems like you guys are utterly incapable of handling these situations in a constructive way. It's like you're not even trying anymore. And that doesn't exactly inspire ME to try to be a good player. If our admins don't care about taking our concerns seriously, why should we care about the game at all?

If there's one thing that will kill a game faster than any other, it's a crappy staff. And maybe you guys are wonderful coders, roleplayers, and rules enforcers, but you're goddamn awful at handling playerbase drama, and that's a cancer you have to control if you want a playable game a year or two from now.

Splntrd

IMMs are right, a lot of the pot-stirrers are well sitting here trolling the forums looking for justification and arguing points that frankly I don't give a #### about. IMMs: Thanks for the work you guys do, I appreciate it.

I guess I just see these players doing douchebag things and getting punished for it. Have I done shady #### in the past? Yeah, I got caught and moved on. People do that, its a ####ing game for christ sake. If you have a solid track record of being an asshole and you well act like an asshole dont be surprised if you get caught.

As the players if you are so hellbent on transparency, mediation and all that jazz why don't you become an imm? If you tried it and didn't like it, deal with it.

Move on people.

Small breakdown, so you call can see that this should fall under the category of 'Nunya' (None of your business).

Part of the responsibility of an imm is to make sure no one is cheating.

I see a bunch of stuff on someone that can't use that stuff.

Question 1: Why does player have things he can't use?

Question 2: What else is this player carrying?

Question 3: Has any other imm noticed anything odd about this character in regards to possible hoarding?

Answer 1: Some people have a few items. Some claim they only have a few items. Some have enough items for an imm to think "Holy Crap!".

Answer 2: Holy Crap! (Not a few items, but well over 10 they can't use)

Answer 3: Yep!

Resolution Step 1: Discuss with the other imms about how to handle the situation.

Resolution Step 2: Find a way IC to handle it if it isn't cheating. (Perhaps a title?)

Resolution Step 3: A. Player goes with the flow, get the rp players say they want.

B. Player sends up jackass pray and forces an Imm to respond in kind.

Outcome Step 1: Player gets a TEMPORARY TITLE that can be and did get removed once he left jurisdiction. (Of course, some players do send up jackass prayers and then have the title done in a permanent way so the player can't remove it themselves.)

Outcome Step 2: Player gets nudged a little bit more harshly with a TEMPORARY REDUCTION in moves...no flaw given folks!

Outcome Step 3: A. The opportunity to rp some and perhaps get an attaboy for doing the right thing.

B. The player whines in an ooc manner with only half the story posted to try to make himself look like a victim instead of going for the rp some players have been craving for.

Now, mind you, Twist and Zulg did choose to reverse the outcome of this situation and perhaps they know the whole story or not. They have the means to check it out if they feel the need. Seeing how Twist thought that the character was being punished, I can see why he might come to that conclusion. But, he wasn't there for the discussion so he may not know all of the things that went into it beforehand.

But, I stress TEMPORARY in both parts, because that is LOGGED and was discussed before even doing the title. The rp, the title and the punishment was all hashed out before hand.

Basically, the player in question caused himself a chance to explain his motives in an IC manner by copping a bad attitude. He caused himself some sweet imm exp by thinking the worst first. He caused the bandwagon whiners to come to a conclusion that they are so far off-base upon.

I vis regularly so that people can have a higher level imm to rp with. There are many players out there who have had this opportunity since I have come back.

But, I am also extremely harsh on the whiny lamers because, for the most part, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. And recent events prove it yet again.

And no, we don't have to explain any reason why we do what we do to you because whether you like it or not, a huge portion of the charm of CF is the not knowing what's going on behind the green curtain.

Maybe you're just a blunt person. I don't know.

But #### like:

"Small breakdown, so you call can see that this should fall under the category of 'Nunya' (None of your business)."

"And no, we don't have to explain any reason why we do what we do to you because whether you like it or not, a huge portion of the charm of CF is the not knowing what's going on behind the green curtain."

That REALLY helps with this player/imm relationship. No, really. It just amends the barrier.

You're acting like you're the man behind the screen. That's fine - problem is, in this case, the man behind the screen doesn't have people to assuage any PR incidents.

Seriously, did you have to write those two statements? Is it in your best interest, or for that matter, your intent to piss of the playerbase more by posting those types of statements? I don't have a single lick of problem with you - in fact, I never interacted with you with any characters - but SEEING the OBVIOUS situations behind these last posts, why the hell would you post #### like that? Ignorance? Just don't give a crap?

Everything else is fine. You gave a breakdown, although not required, and for that I'm sure the playerbase will thank you and try to poke a hole in it.

On the other hand..please, please, review your post and really think to yourself, why the hell am I posting this? If you don't care, then try not to post things like that, because frankly, you're fanning the flames.

The two posts go hand in hand. Some players want to know everything we do. We can't tell you everything. That's exactly what that was meant to mean.

It isn't a high horse. It is required to keep some aspects of the fantasy part alive. Otherwise, it becomes strictly rping Sudoku. And the last thing this game needs is to lose the mysterious part of the fantasy world that CF gets a huge portion of it's charm from.

You're applying the 'mysterious' factor incorrectly.

It's true that fantasy games require mysterious factors in what goes on behind the scenes - but really, when it pertains to gameplay (ie hell, some mechanics, some surprising factors).

It's not true that such mysterious factors should apply to punishments, EXCEPT for the fact that you don't want people to know how you guys determine the steps appropriate for punishments. That's wholeheartedly fine. We shouldn't know what steps are implemented, because, as you said, some people will try to find loopholes. We should know when we're stepping out of the boundaries, which is what it seems the imms were doing correctly.

But read the sentences you posted. That's what I'm referring to as your 'high horse'. Maybe think about moderating your language - you don't have to act like a tellietubby, but acting as a face of the admins of a game with an arguably recently unsatisfied playerbase, you might want to think about how you post your statements.

Mind you, if they are read by the 10% of the people that cause 90% of the problems as a swipe at them, I have no problem with that.

The 90% who play the game the way the it is supposed to be played already play that way, so obviously no offense was meant or intended.

"The 90% who play the game the way the it is supposed to be played already play that way, so obviously no offense was meant or intended."

Could you please tell me how the game is supposed to be played? As far as I know, roleplay is mandatory, PK happens and cheating isn't allowed. Am I missing something? Seems pretty simple. If people are abiding these things, then there shouldn't be any problems, right? Or is there a list of unspoken rules that you're referring to?

help unspoken rules
Unable to find what you were looking for. Make sure to check your spelling.

The 10% have a history of douchebaggery that include abusing and breaking all of those rules. Then they whine ooc about it on the forums about how they were mistreated and create partial or fake logs to support their claim.

Post your side of it. Bookmark it - put it on top of the gameplay forum. Or for that matter, create an entire new section titled 'I told you so' or some #### for ####s and giggles. Put in exactly what happened, and why. Mark that section Private with no comments allowed.

Keep in mind, this isn't for each and every one of the incidences purported by the players, but for the ones where the player(s) in question have a history of breaking the rules.

Then point to that each time that player posts some incorrect information with light bulb with some type of statement akin to:

"See? You didn't change. Tough."

Voila. You satisfied both fronts.

The mass got proof of what happened and may/will likely agree with you.

You guys, on the other hand, have a glaringly concrete backing if similar situations arise in the future.

Just make sure not to over-abuse it.

And hell, I'd read stuff like that and laugh about it. Kinda like Twist's logs.

To be quite frank, the 10% of those would take 50% of our time just in posting. Not worth the effort.

I had never been in trouble EVER on cf, im a vet of well over the ten year marker and when I made a healer to explore a bit with someone i knew on aim, whom I had NO history of ever doing anything on cf with ever, I got statements like "Had i known who you were, I wouldn't have empowered you" and #### like that. My punishment was to lose my tat and empowerment, a purge and slay. I feel that was WAY unfair because other pepole form that trip STILL have their Satan tattoos. It leads me to believe theres a HUGE double standard on certain people being allowed to do certain things, and others just are always gonna get the shaft because of who they are. Now I've never been in trouble ever. I even recently applied to imm with Durble (which I assumed was going ok until I deleted for time restrictions, cause I got the test items to redescribe for writing examples.) But one incident that I dont feel was that bad, and instantly im in the 10% douchbag category. And I highly doubt any of it truly had to do with me, I think i got hit so hard because the person I tried exploring with happened to be Torak. Had I rolled that healer with any of the less known cfers, it probably would have been ok in the imms eyes. In fact I know it would have, because for 10 years ive played in the same cabals and stuff as my friends. It never became an issue till this last time, and I think theres something wrong with that.

help spoken rules
things that Magus knows about but decided to break anyways.

>You're applying the 'mysterious' factor incorrectly.
>
>It's true that fantasy games require mysterious factors in
>what goes on behind the scenes - but really, when it pertains
>to gameplay (ie hell, some mechanics, some surprising
>factors).
>
>It's not true that such mysterious factors should apply to
>punishments, EXCEPT for the fact that you don't want people to
>know how you guys determine the steps appropriate for
>punishments. That's wholeheartedly fine. We shouldn't know
>what steps are implemented, because, as you said, some people
>will try to find loopholes. We should know when we're stepping
>out of the boundaries, which is what it seems the imms were
>doing correctly.
>
>But read the sentences you posted. That's what I'm referring
>to as your 'high horse'. Maybe think about moderating your
>language - you don't have to act like a tellietubby, but
>acting as a face of the admins of a game with an arguably
>recently unsatisfied playerbase, you might want to think about
>how you post your statements.
>

Just to note, the entire playerbase is not unsatisfied.

A couple things:

I don't necessarily understand why, from a purely IC perspective, an (IC) Immortal would come on somehow for this. Based on how you described things, I get the feeling this is a staff member using IC mechanisms to punish them for something that YOU think is lame (hoarding), but isn't necessarily bad RP and is not, as far as I can tell, against the rules.

So, as I understand it, it went down like this:
1) You notice a guy hoarding eq. It's not against the rules and the character has no role entries or other virtues that would make hoarding "bad RP" AFAIK.

2) You don't like this. Maybe other Imms don't like it. You use IC mechanisms to bust his chops.

3) Dude takes it the wrong way and it becomes an issue. Nasty mess ensues.

I certainly realize it isn't the player base's prerogative to tell you guys how to do your jobs and that WE shouldn't dictate policy. That said, it seems like a pattern is developing, which is the transition from #2 to #3.

So... I'm simply going to throw out there as calmly and politely as I can the idea that the staff consider how well #2 has been working out for them lately and how much lame #3 it leads to and think about maybe working on that.

Perhaps you could introduce some helpfiles that elaborate on some of the "not quite against the rules, but still problematic" issues, or maybe just pull these people aside and talk to them face-to-face instead of trying to handle it with (let's face it, negative) RP, which commonly upsets people.

You'd be absolutely right if you said you shouldn't have to do that or that those people are a minority and just aren't "worth it", but at the end of the day, addressing the fact that the aforementioned scenario seems to go poorly often enouogh, there might be some PR value in reevaluating how that's handled. It's not that you're not right, you probably are in the right, but if situations like this can be avoided by making an adjustment that is within your control to do, maybe that's worth it if it means less drama llamas.

I REALLY hope this doesn't come off as a rant, because that isn't my intention.

>A couple things:
>
>I don't necessarily understand why, from a purely IC
>perspective, an (IC) Immortal would come on somehow for this.
>Based on how you described things, I get the feeling this is a
>staff member using IC mechanisms to punish them for something
>that YOU think is lame (hoarding), but isn't necessarily bad
>RP and is not, as far as I can tell, against the rules.

Correct. The player in question was not brought into the Realm of the Dead for any rule breaking.

>
>So, as I understand it, it went down like this:
>1) You notice a guy hoarding eq. It's not against the rules
>and the character has no role entries or other virtues that
>would make hoarding "bad RP" AFAIK.

No role entries to make it good rping either. Also, it was noted by another imm that the character was seen possibly hoarding gear a month ago as well. Some of it the same or may have been similar gear.

>
>2) You don't like this. Maybe other Imms don't like it. You
>use IC mechanisms to bust his chops.

It isn't about like or dislike. It's about what is observed of how a character who chose the sphere he chose and the method he used that go against his sphere to gather some of the items.

>
>3) Dude takes it the wrong way and it becomes an issue. Nasty
>mess ensues.
>
>I certainly realize it isn't the player base's prerogative to
>tell you guys how to do your jobs and that WE shouldn't
>dictate policy. That said, it seems like a pattern is
>developing, which is the transition from #2 to #3.

The playerbase recently posted a whole thread on how they aren't getting enough immteraction. Guess why I came back?

>
>So... I'm simply going to throw out there as calmly and
>politely as I can the idea that the staff consider how well #2
>has been working out for them lately and how much lame #3 it
>leads to and think about maybe working on that.

Here's a thought. A player sees something odd and rps it out for the odd chance it may lead to having fun!

>
>Perhaps you could introduce some helpfiles that elaborate on
>some of the "not quite against the rules, but still
>problematic" issues, or maybe just pull these people aside and
>talk to them face-to-face instead of trying to handle it with
> let's face it, negative) RP, which commonly upsets people.

How about this, "If you aren't brought to the realm of the dead for a rules violation, play the game, it may lead to having fun!"

>
>You'd be absolutely right if you said you shouldn't have to do
>that or that those people are a minority and just aren't
>"worth it", but at the end of the day, addressing the fact
>that the aforementioned scenario seems to go poorly often
>enouogh, there might be some PR value in reevaluating how
>that's handled. It's not that you're not right, you probably
>are in the right, but if situations like this can be avoided
>by making an adjustment that is within your control to do,
>maybe that's worth it if it means less drama llamas.

90% of the playerbase appreciates the opportunity. I will continue to try to make this game more fun. If the other 10% want to think the worst before trying to have fun, I don't have to apologize for their bad judgment.
>
>I REALLY hope this doesn't come off as a rant, because that
>isn't my intention.

Good post.

I tried RPing with you as Thuul, you tossed him out of the Spire.

You say here it's possible to have fun after punishment, but I'd offer up the idea that the vast majority disagree and feel as if the character isn't fun any more.

When you slash this guys moves, you didn't say anything about it being temporary (Unless that was edited).

>
>When you slash this guys moves, you didn't say anything about
>it being temporary (Unless that was edited).
>

Nor should I have. What's the point of adding an affect if you know it's temporary in an instance like this? This is part of the the nunya.

As for Thuul, I only vaguely remember the name.

Something you see as insignificant or vague has substantial meaning to someone.

And the consensus was that you were in the wrong.

zsdfbsdb

Somebody reminded me about Thuul. Yep, that was the consensus.

dfhnd

"Here's a thought. A player sees something odd and rps it out for the odd chance it may lead to having fun!"

Except having stats permanently altered isn't fun. It reeks of abusing OOC mechanisms. The last reference to this is Jindicho. Dude got a title--whooptie do. But then you guys started taking away edge points and altered his luck stat, iirc.

If you think that is fun, then you have a sadistic sense of what fun actually is.

I don't know about the Jindicho incident as I wasn't involved, so I am not going to respond on that.

And seeing how I didn't alter any stats permanently (meaning they could have been changed at any time and they were), this post isn't really relevant to this sub thread.

The reason why people who have played the game for ten years or so don't bother "playing it out" after getting punished is that usually, you don't get fixed or rewarded. 9/10, historically, you just waste time for the most part and wind up either not succeeding or getting dealt a worse hand.

So yeah, if someone resets my stats I'm not going to gamble on it, I'm going to take it as a sign that I screwed up with that char and delete.

Whether or not you intend that to be the case, that is what it is.

For all I know, the -charisma and edge point nerfing happened BEFORE the title.

And I kept waiting for RP during the whole thing, and none was forthcoming. Even threw up an IC pray and got plagued but nothing else.

And no, none of my stats were ever changed back after the event in question. Plus I got set with a (MORON) flag. I had to play with the Deck of Fate to get my luck somewhat back to normal and trained charisma 5 times just to have my RP not fall into the complete ####ter.

"Outcome Step 3: A. The opportunity to rp some and perhaps get an attaboy for doing the right thing."

This is assuming you already have a predetermined understanding of what is and is not right for players to do. You, the person behind Lyristeon, feel it is wrong to hold onto items. So you're forcing your personal opinions on other players.

I know in the past I've held onto things like swirling black opals and prayer beads and armageddon so that my enemies couldn't have them.

Until it is written in th rule book that holding onto limited items you can't use is wrong, then maybe you should keep your opinion to yourself.

I won't reiterate what others said about you getting off your high horse.

Furthermore, this post is the first post you've made that suggests your actions were temporary. Which leads me to believe you're just making that up, because rational thinking people fixed what you broke already.

The logs prove otherwise. In fact, once he worded away, the title was gone. But, because of his pray, it became permanent.

There was no flaw. It was just set to a different number. Very easy to switch around.

Many players carry some limited things in their inventory that they can't use. Most of the time it is ignored.

16 things is something that deserves some attention.

As far as making things up, any implementor can check the logs and see for themselves whether or not I am. I have a clear conscience.

You didn't even address the meat and potatoes of my post.

Which was the point about your predetermined idea of what was and was not the right response.

You think most people playing this game who have something like their movement slashed (Zathryian) or luck stat dropped (Jindicho) or intelligence drpped (Orcfest) or any other mechanical stat altered seems like a great opportunity for roleplay? Sorry, but if something like that happens to me, the last thing I'm thinking about is roleplay. The first thing I'm thinking is, "Hey, I'm being f**ked with."

After reading everything you've written about this situation, I get a stronger sense of you disagreeing with a player's options and opinions, and deciding to intentionally screw with them because you can and because of your difference in opinion of how the game should be played according to Lyristeon.

And apparently some other people who are higher up on the ladder thought the same thing about your punishment not fitting the crime. So maybe a rant from the player was actually warranted, even if they didn't go about it the right way.

Umm, I got what you were saying, but you obviously didn't read the entire thing.

Player had the chance to RP when he got the title. This is when he had the chance to do the right thing. He does the right thing, there is no slashing of moves.

This has zero to do with a difference of opinion. Hey, the guy is sphere Greed and a history of doing that, no problem.

The guy is a Justice Orderly guy. Let's go kill the paladin for his gear! Woohoo...LAME.

As for the higher ups, they thought I was punishing the character. Which I obviously feel I was not. It could be a difference of opinion or they might not know the whole story.

I have zero regrets for treating this the way I did.

Obviously more people than just the higher ups feel your actions were actually an undeserved punishment than a chance at roleplay (as you claim).

What do you not understand about that? It's you who was doing something wrong. But you're unwilling to realize or admit that (e-peen).

Or maybe you just have a bad sense of what good roleplay is.

Maybe you should have taken a different approach of how to roleplay this situation out.

>As for the higher ups, they thought I was punishing the
>character. Which I obviously feel I was not.

------

>Player had the chance to RP when he got the title. This is
>when he had the chance to do the right thing. He does the
>right thing, there is no slashing of moves.


This certainly sounds like punishing the character for not doing "the right thing". I don't think many people have a problem with giving him a fitting title. Giving powergamers and lame characters witty titles that mock them is great. The problem is, he went OOC so you did, in fact, punish him for it.

And you can say it was temporary as many times as you want in all caps, but in CF we players tend to think of permanent as stuff we can't change ourselves and isn't an affect that wears off eventually.


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

It's how you deal with them that matters*.

Personally I don't believe that locking a thread is ever a good idea. If it's a shameless flamefest, just delete it. If it's one (or a few) disgruntled person, let them cool down with a (temporary) ban.

If it's an actual discussion, good or bad, you should leave it as is. Good posts will stand out, even in a sea of negative comments, and have all the more value because of it.

Ultimately, I'm sure that most people who can listen to reason, would agree that the issue at hand was not nearly as serious as it was made to appear.

* And Twist's post was great, in that respect.

nt

In my opinion at least.

It's almost like you're the posting/IMM equivalent to a guy with stellar RP who loses it when he dies.

But hey, I'm glad you're back on CF. At least you give a ####.

I just want to point out a couple of facts and leave it at that. Since I'm not quite sure this discussion is doing any good.

1: It's extremely difficult for immortals (non-IMP) to start throwing logs of active players on message boards. It's not sanctioned in any manner nor is it good form. Asking for us to crucify an active player probably isn't going ot happen.

2: There are going to be "mistakes" in judgement. Guess what, that's human error. The problem I have with this is that you have a very vocal playerbase (Champions of the public so to speak) that has a history of dropping slander-bombs on Immortals that may not take a popular approach to dealing with characters. On a whole, I think we as an Immortal happen to make some pretty good judgement calls on the vast majority of incidents that do happen. Take that how you want it, but some of our finer Immortals have managed to be the target of public slander. Sure, we could lock or delete those threads but then we'd be criticized for "taking away your voice" and it would still occur on other forums.

3: This game can easily become what you want it to be: a game where the "Immortals" only moderate the rules. I guarantee you will see more players leave when the Immortal interaction stops and rules enforcement is all that occurs. Guess which other games have this? WOW, DAOC, SC, online console games - while they might be fun initially, those games tend to loose their luster quickly.

4: I fully support Lyr, even if his decision wasn't popular. It's obvious other Immortals felt the incident could be handled differently, so I support their decision as well. I do however, think the player in question could have been handled this very differently also. Oh, I don't know, an email to IMPS would have made it less of the dramatic "woe is me" as it happens to have become.

Twist made it clear that most situations will be handled on a per-incident basis. We can't write players a set of guidelines which tell players how to use common sense. So here's an Immortal asking for you to, "Use common sense."

While Immortal/player interactions aren't going to become brotherly overnight, I think we are ALL responsible for taking into account how our actions impact the game. Please also take into account that police officers in and out of game are never really that popular. This game happens to have "police officers" that actually try to interact with you to better your experience. Incidents like this are going to contribute to making that go away. That has the potential to drastically change the landscape of this game.

One last point: It is VERY easy to perceive tone in text. It is also easy to misunderstand the intentions of a post. Case in point: how easily a post turned into: Great job Twist, to "!@#!$ you Twist." Again, in situations like this, take a step back and use common sense.

Anyhow - a top down approach is going to be necessary to standardize how rules (and perhaps RP) enforcement is handled. I still don't see how players can act like these incidents are any worse than Cador Transing you and cursing you out like a dog - but how soon we forget.

And having read a long way back in the forum, I've never really seen the Imms do anything other than give polite replies, often in situations in which they would be perfectly justified in calling their playerbase idiots. I applaud their restraint!

>The playerbase DESERVES to be treated like adults,

Only if they act like adults.

Rersd

>If there's one thing that will kill a game faster than any
>other, it's a crappy staff. And maybe you guys are wonderful
>coders, roleplayers, and rules enforcers, but you're goddamn
>awful at handling playerbase drama, and that's a cancer you
>have to control if you want a playable game a year or two from
>now.


That is an extremely vague and ambiguous statement, and not very helpful. What is your alternative for "handling playerbase drama"?

My understanding from reading a few of these responses is that some players want the official forum equivalent of a public court of law. Where IMMs create something like a dedicated forum for players to bring their complaints about punishments, and the IMMs are compelled to respond with logs and arguments. And then presumably the rest of the playerbase gets to weigh in like a jury of peers. That is incredibly onerous and will never happen. I am a litigator in real life, and it is the most stressful and time consuming job I have ever held - and there is no way in Hell I would subject myself to that kind of stress unless I got paid well for it. I think it's *extremely* unreasonable and lacks perspective to expect CF IMMs to have to spend their time and energy like that - it would mean no more CF IMMs.

I'm assuming you don't like my favorite alternatives, which would be to simply ban the malcontents who aren't even players anymore and hope the playerbase mods would moderate these types, as well. And personally, although I have an aversion to the melodrama, I can understand it when it's coming from players - the posts that really irk me are the ones from non-players who, driven by motivations I don't entirely understand, just try to stoke the flames of aggression. What do you do with non-constructive, abrasive/negative comments from people who don't even play the game?

So what's your reasonable alternative to locking threads.

If you've got such a problem with the way things are run, then check out <http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=28317&mesg_id=28317&page=> and make a difference. If you don't want to be the one putting in the effort, then shut the hell up.

While that's a very good suggestion to someone who might want to improve the situation, it's not a reasonable alternative the staff could take to deal with these issues. The staff can't apply to the staff; they're already on it.

Splntrd

Being part of the staff you can make a huge difference in how the players view the staff. There are a few staff that I'd love nothing more than to strangle with a string of rotting sausage links. My experience has been poor with those imms, but the ones that give very positive interactions have made up for that in a huge way, namely Twist.

If you don't like the way the staff act/interact, become one, and bring it up as a staffmember. It will hold more weight, and most likely be more productive. That's just my two cents.

There's at least three Imms off the top of my head (Nep, Kasty and Twist) who don't respond to posts as jerks or ask stupid questions like "How is cutting someone's movement in half punishing them?"

You could consult with them before posting. Just a thought.

Regarding logs - well, the obvious answer is to stop messing with people unless they break the rules. Then you really don't have to defend your actions at all right? Or you could not do it anonymously and hide behind a wall of your Imm peers who back you up no matter what you do. No matter how ridiculous what they're saying sounds.

The reason I say you guys are stupid is because of posts like this where you completely miss the point. No one is asking for a "peer review log board". Your whole post is a straw man argument where you're saying how silly an idea that no one proposed is. All SpIntrd is saying is to stop being jackasses. That's not that hard.

Literally every Imm response to "why are you guys being ####s" for many years now has been that its so unbearably tough to be an Imm and simultaneously be a reasonable person. And how the players are trying their very hardest to pee in your cheerios. That might work as an argument you make to someone in college but that doesn't work with an adult because adults know that nonsense is part of every day life and that its not an excuse. And that if you want to run something, manage something or be responsible for something that deals with people than its a requirement that you be a reasonable person even if you feel the other parties are being unreasonable.

a

Splntrd

Ghfg

So we agree that it is unreasonable to demand the IMMs to set up what you call a "peer review log board" to respond to player complaints with full logs and complete information about the situation so that the playerbase can make judgments.

Do you also agree, then, that it is likewise unreasonable to post complaints to the Gameplay Board, and expect the IMMs to respond to the complaint with full logs and complete information so that the playerbase can make judgments? That kind of ad hoc "peer review log board" is exactly what some people appear to be demanding - that the IMMs come out and give full and complete responses, with logs if necessary, to answer admittedly biased complaints.

I'll assume you agree that is an unreasonable expectation, as well.

As for comments re: being reasonable when others are unreasonable, consider how you, in your daily life, respond to people that call you "stupid," a "jackass," a "jerk," that you "ask stupid questions," and ask you "why are you being a ####." Would you respond any more reasonably than I am to your post right now? I think it would go a long way towards reasonable and courteous communication if everyone would tone down the hyperbole - and if you saw another player making those kinds of vitriolic statements as the ones in your post, let them know it would be more productive for all concerned if they toned it down.

"As for comments re: being reasonable when others are unreasonable, consider how you, in your daily life, respond to people that call you "stupid," a "jackass," a "jerk," that you "ask stupid questions," and ask you "why are you being a ####." Would you respond any more reasonably than I am to your post right now?"

It's pretty rare. Probably because I don't do any of those things. I'm fine admitting fault and mistakes and reversing a decision if it is a bad one. Sorry around the five hundreth "Its our playground and you guys are just here because we deign to allow you to be" post I've lost my patience. I'm a partner in my company but you don't see me treating the employees like that because I'd very quickly be working alone or get thrown out by the other partners.

In real life, I do represent my organization and I do it politely even when its painful. And trust me, it can be extremley painful at times, the absolute worst thing about my job is the stress.

In this context, you're representing CF as an administrator. You have the same obligations that I have when I'm representing my organization, to represent it with integrity and pride.

Edited to add: And if your point is that you don't get paid so you shouldn't have to represent CF with pride and integrity, I'll disagree on that too. I could easily find another job, making the same amount of money. Fear of losing my job is not why I act professionally in a managerial context. I act professionally when I'm in charge of things because that is what comes with the territory and that is what is expected of you and it is not asking a lot.

If I were providing a service out of the goodness of my heart, free of charge, then I wouldn't feel much obligation to respond calmly and politely if one of the users of that service decided to treat me poorly.

Administration, punishing people and then being offended that people get pissed off at you is sort of stupid.

I've fired about ten people in my career. Probably about half of them were pretty pissed off about it. I wasn't surprised because uh, I just fired them.

When I was a VIP at Dio's I maybe deleted a dozen or so threads. Half of them resulted in people being pissed off. That's *expected* as an administrator.

If you can't handle it with a smile and your only answer is to make yourself look bad then maybe you're in the wrong field. Hell, I got thrown off the Dio's VIP team and guess what? Life moves on.

Sorry you don't get a free pass to be in a position of authority and not act like it.

I don't think it's frustration. I think it's just calling the morons out who basically lied to try to gain sympathy from the flock.

I mean really, your thinking has become alien to me.

And that's just it, Pro. Nobody is forcing you to play our game.

Isildur's basically suggesting that if you put in effort for free you'd be held to a lower standard than some random anonymous person on the internet. IE, you can get away with more because you aren't getting paid.

Based on the rest of your posts I don't think you're agreeing with Isildur or disagreeing with Pro on this particular topic. It's not like you're saying that your behavior is warranted because you volunteer, you're saying that your behavior was misinterpreted and that you didn't do anything wrong to begin with.

I think we can all agree that there are expectations of someone in a position of authority, regardless of whether or not they're getting paid, that separate them from a good admin or a bad admin.

>Isildur's basically suggesting that if you put in effort for
>free you'd be held to a lower standard than some random
>anonymous person on the internet. IE, you can get away with
>more because you aren't getting paid.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as the party analogy that Valg posted in the other link in regards to how things need to be held in regards to accountability.

>
>Based on the rest of your posts I don't think you're agreeing
>with Isildur or disagreeing with Pro on this particular topic.
> It's not like you're saying that your behavior is warranted
>because you volunteer, you're saying that your behavior was
>misinterpreted and that you didn't do anything wrong to begin
>with.

No. I am saying that a player, with a vast history of reported blehness, posted an ooc log of only certain things trying to portray him in a certain light. If he had posted everything, he would have been called out on the truth of the matter. Huge difference.

>
>I think we can all agree that there are expectations of
>someone in a position of authority, regardless of whether or
>not they're getting paid, that separate them from a good admin
>or a bad admin.

Diplomacy goes both ways. If a repeat offender offends again, he is neither deserving of it nor should it be expected.

My points were simply that:

(1) this is not an employer/employee relationship - if anything it is a volunteer service/customer relationship;
(2) if you want people to treat you reasonably and with courtesy, you should act reasonable and courteous - being a customer does not give you license to call service people "stupid," a "jackass," a "jerk," that they "ask stupid questions," and ask them "why are you being a ####." - every establishment has a right to refuse service to customers that act that way;
(3) We would get a lot more accomplished if everyone stepped down from the vitriolic hyperbole.

I agree that players create as much of CF as Imms do, and I agree that players have a great deal to contribute. And I agree that punishments should be handled with tact. But I also think part of the responsibility of being a productive player/customer is acting courteously and reasonable. In your case, I think your original response to me was unnecessary and over the line.

>the obvious answer is to stop messing with people unless they break the rules.

>No one is asking for a "peer review log board". All SpIntrd
>is saying is to stop being jackasses.

1. Staff member decides someone has broken the rules. Players disagree. How do you propose that disagreement be resolved to the players' satisfaction?

2. Staff member has some interaction with a player. Doesn't think he was a jackass. Players disagree. How do you propose that disagreement be resolved to the players' satisfaction?

3. Even if the staff decided to only mess with people who break the rules and to not be jackasses, do you really think #1 and #2 above would never happen?

That entire thing with the pack mule? That took about a day to resolve. A day that Twist and other imms/imps could be using to work on stuff that's beneficial to the mud instead of stroking some twat's ego. A day that they could be overlooking people who play the game 'according to the rules' and be giving out rewards.

No, instead they have to deal with some asshole.

Admittedly, Twist and the other imm/imps decided that the punishment was unwarranted. Regardless, it's the time that they spend on the issue, whether it's through the punisher's zeal or the player's lameness, that affects the game.

I hear people say 'oh the imms are volunteers, so they should realize that we're the consumers. It's not like they get paid for this job.'

The flip side is that BECAUSE they are volunteers, their time is more precious when it comes to their positions. They aren't being paid for this. They aren't doing this because they have some obligations to feed their kids. They're doing this because they enjoy the game and the coding aspects of it (or whatever reasons). They have no obligations to spend hours and hours to work on this.

However, one may argue that since they took the position, they should act as courteous and responsible admins. I agree with that.

But that extends both ways. The players should act with respect to the admins, if due to the SHEER FACT that they are volunteers.

Imms really need to get a PR person or just have some of their members prohibited from answering on these general rule issues. Because obviously, that's not working, and it's stirring up the flames.

90% of the playerbase do not cheat, and probably won't cheat (at least noticeably or in a way that's going to affect their character/the game). 10% will. And the issues arise from the 10%.

On the other hand, 80% of the imms (arbitrary number) handle these posts with care. 20% don't and just piss of the playerbase more.

How about the 10% try not to overstep the rules, and the 20% try not to act like assholes?

I don't think anyone is asking for that. I think it's all in the attitude of "SOME" of the staff and the way player concerns are handled here. The way many situations are handled by them it creates the Drama just as much as some of the players cause it as well. Then when this drama created by the way something is handled ingame, hits the forums it's locked down with little more then a we do what we want post from an Imm or deleted all together, instead of really addressed. And this isn't just for when players feel they got a raw deal from an Imm, it's an overall attitude of some "We don't have to explain anything to you Peons, if you don't like it leave!". Well guess what, alot of people have. Twist actually handled the situation perfectly with his post on the whole pack mule thing explaining the Imm in question went overboard and it was corrected. So overall just saying a little more tact in handling it's playerbase might cut down on alot of the Drama.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I understand what you're saying re: attitude and text-based perceptions, but suppose the answer is simply, "The situation was correctly handled under existing guidelines for roleplay and/or OOC consequences. The complaining player did not post all of the relevant information. And unfortunately, I do not have the time to post a complete and full recapitulation of the event to explain why the situation was correctly handled."

Do you think people would be happy with that response? Would you be happy with that response? IMO that's basically what Twist said, only the opposite judgment. I don't know, personally, I think people would demand more information - cite the specific guideline, detail exactly how it was broken, post a log of the event where it contradicts the player's edited log, answer questions re: how allegedly similar situations are handled - all of which I think you'll agree is extremely time consuming and burdensome to respond to. Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of these other other posts, but I really get the feeling some people expect that kind of individualized attention from IMMs.

It's better then "You suck and don't deserve an answer!" or the "We can do what we want we are Gods!" answers that we got before Twist answered. I honestly don't expect a whole breakdown of what happened or posting of logs but the whole because we said so! Bam Locked thread routine is getting old. Also things like this if they are handled IC in game probably won't get to the forums like this. From the looks of it he was given a bad title and half his movement removed and then the OOC chat began when he complained about it. If instead the god of greed showed up and changed his sphere and titled him or an Imm put a bounty on his head and announced it to the whole MUD or something of that nature I think alot less people would have a problem with it. The OOC chat almost sounded like you have a bunch of stuff my mort wants so now I'm going to ruin your character so you delete and I can get it. Not saying that's why it's done but that's what the log made it come across as.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

>I don't know, personally, I think people would demand more information - cite the specific guideline, detail exactly how it was broken, post a log of the event where it contradicts the player's edited log, answer questions re: how allegedly similar situations are handled - all of which I think you'll agree is extremely time consuming and burdensome to respond to.<

I know I don't take kindly to being called a liar and made to seem like I'm some machiavellian genius by posting edited logs to make the playerbase fall into a line of thinking that I want. You want to accuse me of something, then please, bring proof. If you do, and you're right, I'll gladly shut the #### up. GLADLY. This whole situation pisses me off to be honest, as I got none of the response that this situation seems to have gotten. And honestly, I got worse punishments and didn't do half the cheesy #### Zathryian did. But whatever, this whole argument has again reminded me why I am glad I don't play CF anymore.

I don't think the playerbase wants a OOC fact-finding board to prove things, but by the same token, they probably won't take kindly to being slandered by someone in authority (such as certain IMMs calling players crazy for saying Nepenthe was Cabdru, various other examples that I have not the heart nor time to research and post).

That is all.

>My understanding from reading a few of these responses is that
>some players want the official forum equivalent of a public
>court of law.

Personally, I think the court of public opinion is more important and doesn't require the stress and work of a public court of law.

I think more than anything the playerbase wants a resolution to these issues. They read these logs and wonder if they will fall victim to some arbitrary penalty for not playing the game the way some Imm thinks they should.

I'm not talking about cheaters that break the rules. Give Torak a permaban and politely ask him to find a new game--I don't care. I'm talking about stuff like the Orcfest fiasco, Jindicho, and this latest one.

Instead of looking at these incidents as troublemaking, they could be viewed as opportunities to demonstrate what a great game CF is with its even-handed rules enforcement by a professional staff. You know, just like how you're asking players to view these punishments as roleplay opportunities.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

No one is really interested in talking any more. Bring on the lawyers and the custody battle!

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

n/t

>The playerbase DESERVES to be treated like adults...

...when they (we) act like adults. Frequently they (we) do not.

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Just kidding it would suck

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

This was mentioned below:

"All the normal RP snoopers left and no one felt like taking up the reins..."

I just wanted to say that many good things are on the horizon for CF. There are a lot of good people working very hard behind the scenes to make CF enjoyable for everyone. Sadly, you can't make everyone happy all the time. Is the staff stretched a tad thin at certain times? Maybe, but (RL) stuff happens. There are some really great "up-and-comers," as well, all just yearning to do the cool echoes, roleplaying, quests, titles, etc.

Also, if you think you'd do a good job behind the scenes, were pretty much always taking applications.

Nay-nay

Which are easily stepped on. And, as usual, the nay-sayers are more vocal than the yay-sayers, so don't let that discourage you.

So, as a person who still enjoys the game for what it is, while appreciating the effort the IMM staff (senior or otherwise) put into it:

Thumbs Up!

You Bork Malakhi and Anlil are going to be so crazy amazing for CF. And Adekar has been a real pleasure so far.

It just sucks that even with the dwindling playerbase *because* of less and less interaction, and less and less God's to follow... it still takes this long to put in work and get a religion when your guys potential is right before our eyes the entire time.

And, imagine if Thror hadn't come back?!?!?!

I'll still in my heart feel the CF glory days were 2005-2007 in terms of IMM involvement, interaction, and fun times for me.

But hey, Borkahd/Fjarn(for f###'s sake dude, get your full IMM on)/Malakhi/Adekar/Nnaeshuk are going to be nothing but good for the game.

That time period was awesome...dnd Sacer's return was nothing but good for everyone.

One of the Imms needs to take over PR and handle things for the staff. The current policies and actions are self-destructive.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

And that doesn't exactly inspire ME to try to be a good player. If our admins don't care about taking our concerns seriously, why should we care about the game at all?

That part of your post is very important and I hope it is taken to heart by the Staff.

It causes people to move on instead of bitching forever about an issue.

At present, all parties are clear on what other parties think. All parties are clear the other parties won't change their mind. So why let it go on forever clogging up the forums?

I should add that this applies to my own complaints, and I'm still all for it.

Also, if imms are using specific techniques to catch people doing shady stuff, posting them here will prevent them using them again.

That said, I'd love it if this thread is locked because otherwise we'll basically just go on about this issue when, again, everyone knows what the different views are, and everyone knows that agreement won't be reached.

Everyone knows that some people will say this is killing cf, and others will consider it to be beneficial to cf because they consider the behaviour it prevents to be as, or more, destructive.

>Everyone knows that some people will say this is killing cf, and others >will consider it to be beneficial to cf because they consider the >behaviour it prevents to be as, or more, destructive.

Except, there are things they could do to keep these issues from coming to the forums in such an explosive manner. And when they DO come to the forums, there are better ways to respond to them than they way they usually choose to.

I agree that the behavior you're referring to is destructive, but their response to it is destructive, too. Why choose a strategy that's polarizing (killing) the game?

Splntrd

"Except, there are things they could do to keep these issues from coming to the forums in such an explosive manner. And when they DO come to the forums, there are better ways to respond to them than they way they usually choose to."

Things to ask yourself:

1. Who first brought the issue to the forums?
2. Was the log posted completely unbiased?
3. How did some of the more vocal players respond? (I'll point you in the direction of Torak and Orb's posts)
4. Do you think "there are better ways to respond to them than the way they usually choose to?"

Some players will do anything they can to bend the rules. They want to know exactly what the letter of the rules are so they can find ways to go around them, as has been said. I'm sorry, but you're being purposefully obtuse if you think that's not the case.

Many players are all about open discussion with the staff. That's great. What I don't understand is why you don't police yourselves better. The champions you choose (and I call them this because I rarely if ever see anyone critize their posts) do little more than flame personal attacks when things don't go their way. (Claiming it's someone's 'time of the month?' Seriously?) Some have been denied for serious cheating like posting wand or quest area info and getting key areas shut down. And yet their posts receive far less criticism than even the most moderate of immortals.

If you want open discussion, a step in the right direction would be extending some ####ing common courtesy first while shouting down those who are detrimental to the process.

Since we're doing this in a constructive manner, I'm going to point out a few things about your post and try to ignore the personal shots. Here's some answers for your questions:

1. The issue will likely always be brought up by the players and usually the player involved in an incident. It's never been common practice for an Immortal to post why they made a decision. Immortals will answer direct questions about mechanics but anything about the rules or reasoning behind actions is rare. Twist's post today was one of the very first like it....and that was a good thing.

2. He didn't post his gear which everyone called him on it - he likely left out parts. I do know that he avoids people in-game and has generally held onto gear but I've had him sell/help my character out before so I can see his side as well. There's always been hoarding characters. It's also never really been policed for hoarding beyond "anti-hoarding" instances where your gear rots - a title is fine, even removal from the Spire I could see but a personal penalty to his character (on an air form I believe) is a bit rough.

There's always the alternative as well that you post the log - and better yet your reasons for such instead of replying "you don't deserve to know". From what we saw, the Immortal was being rude. If that's not the case, then back it up with evidence.

3. My posts can take shots at some Immortals but quite honestly, it's a two-way road - yes I can take the high road and so could others. Also some Immortals basically bring it upon themselves with how they act towards others directly. There's a reason you rarely see Sebeok/Cyradia/etc post these days....which is probably a good thing. About Zathyrian I basically said exactly what I said above....and if we're talking about the rules clarification post, here's exactly how it transpired...

-My post asked the OOCness and rules around Hell groups specifically
-First Immortal response? "We shouldn't waste time dealing with cheaters." Ya, great beginning...
-Eskelian made a great post about the state of the game and the rules
-I do get a solid response from Daevryn after awhile, which I was happy with even though we don't agree.
-No Immortal responses to Eskelian's post despite 15+ responses agreeing, and several on the other forums.
-Week goes by, figure I'd ask since I know it takes time to discuss internally rules changes
-After a very long thread, it takes Lyristeon's nearly last response to basically say I was denied for Rawvos' actions to "prevent this kind of action". Which I'm fine with but I was asking in an isolated instance about OOC rules...which ironically Twist says it's fine in some instances, which is basically how it's always been.
-Thread gets locked.

Now if they would have explained it out with a real response, maybe even *gasp* discuss rules with players, you might get somewhere. The game is basically in a state where the Immortals and players aren't agreeing and it's showing - I can point to a ton of other games where things like podcasts, news blogs, chat room discussions, and other ways all exist to keep that relationship up there. Right now none of it exists - add in some bad responses, bad actions from above and you get the ####storm we're in. It's like the end of Star Wars Online if ya know about that.

I'll leave your last question as kind of an open-ended response to the whole thing. As much as your comments shoot at people like myself, for actions that have been in the past and Immortals have supposedly moved on from by the way, you basically ask players to defend against people who speak up about what's wrong on a public forum.

Side note: Considering the time and effort I put into this game, either from helping new players, or showing newer players "vet secrets", or contributing with solid RPers like Loshnak, or writing lots on the wiki (official and Dio's), or trying to start things like the podcast....I think we deserve answers despite what you may think.....

Well, I'm not going to dive head long into this but the basics is that people think the Immortals are ####ing up. Declining playerbase basically shows that something is wrong. And when things like denial without discussion, stats being set on players with no discussion or when not merited, banning people left and right for things like Orcfest and friends exploring a game together.....maybe it's time to reevaluate what's going on. What's always worked before is surely not working now and maybe it's time the mystical Imms step out from behind the curtain and get talking with players.

I asked the Immortals to chat in the podcast (I'll be doing it somewhat soon, I needed a breather after Loshnak so it wasn't basically a ragefest)....not one answer. Maybe it's time someone steps up and gets talking.

And Twist, that post basically saying it was taken back against Zathyrian? Well done. You were great to deal with when I got denied, even though I didn't agree with it. Just wish more people would follow your footsteps - and I'm being serious.

What exactly is it you expect? The playerbase to argue with people they agree with? Dio's has plenty of arguing, just not when people agree with each other.

The reason you will get a lot of resistance is because you're backing each other up no matter what on a topic that people just plain disagree with you on.

Now, you can hope that people will rally to your aid or you can realize that you're defending a hard to defend position - namely that you can punish people's 200 hour old characters without explaining it or being consistent. I have a hell of a lot better things to do than put 200 hours into something that can get swept away without so much as an explanation or knowing who is responsible for it.

So if you're looking for people to rally to your defense there, well good luck.

>What exactly is it you expect? The playerbase to argue with
>people they agree with? Dio's has plenty of arguing, just not
>when people agree with each other.
>
>The reason you will get a lot of resistance is because you're
>backing each other up no matter what on a topic that people
>just plain disagree with you on.

As I pointed out in my post, the players do this as well. Please reread what I wrote. I'm not asking you to argue with those you disagree with. Rather, I'm pointing out that it would be more beneficial to the pbase as a whole if you would be more selective in your "champions."

By not saying anything when they post childish personal attacks, you are tacitly encouraging this behavior from the playerbase. You are putting the rubber stamp on those posts saying "as a playerbase, we agree with everything this guy has posted."

As a side example, I consider myself a pretty staunch conservative, but I would take a rational discussion with a liberal 10 times out of 10 before I gave one thought to what Beck, O'Reilly and Limbaugh are saying. People like that are more into hearing their own bombast and vitriol (shouting down their opponent rather than discussing), rather than having a constructive discussion as to how to fix this country. According to them, anyone with the same attitude as them is right, while anyone who disagrees is a "sycophant."

The immstaff has explained more than once that they are not going to get into a shouting match. You want constructive discussion? Don't let those people be your champions.

Be more selective in our "champions"? No one selects champions in any way, not even tacitly. Some people get upset and post loudly. That's pretty much the extent of it. We don't have post moderation capabilities, voting structures, a private chamber to discuss our argument strategies, we don't sit in tribal council to vote on who's going to take the issue to the Imms. That's absurd.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that sometimes, when a crazy person spurs a hundred post thread on, sometimes we agree with SOME of what he's talking about (and sometimes we don't and we post about it), and that somehow this is the cause of all of our problems. It's like you're forgetting that WE AREN'T FORUM MODERATORS. It's not our job to control the crazy people any more than it's our will to release them upon you.

You're blaming the relationship problems between the playerbase and the staff on a system of order that exists entirely in your mind. Your proposed solution to our problems is to upset the order of a system that doesn't exist. An imaginary system that polarizes you against us. And you wonder why we have problems communicating.

Splntrd

...to not feed the flames by responding to and/or ignoring those people. Or, God forbid, telling them to shut up while you try and work things out rationally.

You might not be a forum moderator, but you do have a voice that you can use constructively, rather than destructively.

Sorry I wasted your time.

I apologize for my tone.

I don't think you wasted it; you do make a good point that the community could do a better job of supporting the staff against the crazies. I agree that it is a something the community could try to do along with a shift in the staff's policy.

Generally speaking I feel like if you'll work with us, we should be willing to work with you. It's just that 99% of the time it doesn't feel like you're willing to work with us, and I'm sure it feels the same way on the other side of the fence.

I'm hoping this is something we can work on. But remember that change has to come from the top down; the staff has to take a leadership role in compromising.

Splntrd

You just admited that you would throw logic out the window if you didn't like a person. What's more, it was in an attempt to show how you were logical and impartial.

For what it's worth, Beck is dead on. I don't like his religion but everything he talks about he backs with facts, history and sources. If you can prove him wrong he will go on the air, admit his mistake and correct it.

Bill O' allways includes both sides of an argument and corrects misstatments and errors.

Rush is someone I've never really listened to so I don't have an opinion.

You can't be a true concervative if you would side with a progressive. (Which is what I assume you mean by Liberal) Progressives are the antithisis of conservatism in all things. One siding with the other would be counter to their own cause.

What you just wrote and used for comparrison is like saying, I am all for the player, but I'd rather listen to the staff because what I'm reading hurts my feelings.

Hey come to think of it, Progressives think with their feeeeelings.

Well what sort of progress are we showing here?

Go away.

Splntrd

>You just admited that you would throw logic out the window if
>you didn't like a person. What's more, it was in an attempt to
>show how you were logical and impartial.

No, that's not what I said. I said I would be willing to work with someone toward a common goal (fixing the country) who might be on the opposite side of the political spectrum. Two reasons:

1. The common goal is the ultimate objective, and we're both working for it, despite the different roads we travel, and

2. I'm not so full of myself or my political ideology that I cover my ears and sing the "Star-Spangled Banner" at the top of my lungs instead of listening to what may be a really good idea from someone I usually disagree with.

I get both sides of it.

To me it's like, if you're a libertarian you can't back increasing taxes because its antithetical to your whole belief structure. To go either way would make you a moderate and with some concepts like libertarianism and certain hardcore conservative beliefs (which are not really represented in any mainstream politics anyway), you cannot also be a moderate at the same time because it only works as an all or nothing thing.

That being said my feeling on politics is that its a lot like football. No matter how much I trash the other team and support my own, I have zero effect on whether or not they win the game.

You could have in your mind the perfect fix for any situation but given that you're in no position to enact it, it doesn't matter, so its not worth getting worked up about and shifts into the category of things that you have no control over.

The players don't have a campaign of presenting a unified front as the Imms do. If no one is backing you up its because they disagree with you. I have to earn people's respect just like anyone else and so do you, whether you think you're entitled to it or not.

What's wrong with my posts? I may be a little blunt with my posts, but I don't think I've ever been unreasonable as far as having a discussion on these boards. However most discussions are usually locked or deleted before they can get interesting. Also are you trying to suggest I make personal attacks and cheat so my points aren't valid? I don't think I've ever done either to warrant such a claim, or are you just trying to invalidate players who have concerns with how things are handled? Maybe they don't attack these peoples posts because... They agree with them?!

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

That would mean they speak for all of us and they surely don't speak for me, nor I did I ever ask them to.

Typically, the guys who are most vocal about how unfairly they/we've been treated by the IMM staff are the same guys who make a habit of bending the rules. And the funny thing is that typically when they say 'we', they mean 'I'.

Sadly it's a fact of life that bad encounters attract far more attention than good ones. The original post was ridiculously one-sided and ofcourse posted on the unofficial boards, because there you have no way of defending yourself against such 'attacks'. Add internet machismo and old grudges to the game, and the heat is on.

Anyway, other than the Champion bit, I agree with what you say.

>It causes people to move on instead of bitching forever about
>an issue.

That's the problem, the playerbase has moved on and it will continue to move on as long as players are felt like the admin doesn't listen to nor care about their concerns. How much longer until the 2 dozen or so non-immortal players move on? I guess the imms can still have fun playing by themselves. At daevryn;smite daevryn;gecho You hear Zulghinlour laughing mercilessly at Daevryn.

Doesn't seem like much fun though.

Message has been clear for a while it's not our game, it's theirs. Which is fine, but you can see how sucessful this attitude is in keeping or building a playerbase.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I wholeheartedly agree with Anliltuel's post.

>I'm sick of seeing one sentence responses and locked threads,
>with responses like "Players like you don't DESERVE the whole
>story." He's clearly not advocating for himself, but the
>entire playerbase.

Was kinda covered, dude was given a title and chose to whine about it in a prayer. From my veiwpoint, brought it on himself by going ooc.

>The playerbase DESERVES to be treated like adults, like they
>have SOME input in how THEIR game is ran. If the option we're
>choosing is to withhold information and shut down discussion,
>then yeah, you're going to get a lot of very angry, confused
>players, and in my opinion, you've got it coming.

Not our game though is it? We get to play it, for free no less, and thats what the forums are supposed to give, some input, but hell there has been a lot of whining as of late, and to me it mostly seems like folk with thier nose out of joint because everything is not going thier way.

>There are more civilized, responsible, respectful, and
>constructive ways to deal with an explosive situation than to
>simply play the reactionist. Be proactive. If not all of the
>info's there, that's easy to rectify. But not while you guys
>hide behind locked threads and a vague sense of superiority.
>As long as this continues, it's not going to get better.

Why should they have to respond to something posted on another site? Again, my take, these volunteers are spending thier own time to make the game for us, if you don't like the descisions, get into a position to do something about it, and while youre at it take some of the wieght from thier shoulders.

>Having participated in the administration of several
>large-scale games, and having administrated forums for these,
>I have to say anymore it seems like you guys are utterly
>incapable of handling these situations in a constructive way.
>It's like you're not even trying anymore. And that doesn't
>exactly inspire ME to try to be a good player. If our admins
>don't care about taking our concerns seriously, why should we
>care about the game at all?

See above.

>If there's one thing that will kill a game faster than any
>other, it's a crappy staff. And maybe you guys are wonderful
>coders, roleplayers, and rules enforcers, but you're goddamn
>awful at handling playerbase drama, and that's a cancer you
>have to control if you want a playable game a year or two from
>now.

I reckon there are a few folk who on the other hand are superb at creating drama, its all about reading between the lines in my opinion.

I feel like your post reads as if you think I'm Zathryian, which I'm not. I have no dog in this race. I happen to think that the way the whole thing was handled (even knowing what I learned after Lyr posted) was, if not lame, not tactful given what we know about how things that like tend to blow up. That's just a difference of opinions, though.

You are one of the better community members we have, both in the content and character of your posts.