Seems to me if anyone needed a 500 or higher exp penalty, it would be the arials.

Exp penalties are suppose to help make certain races rarer and certain races more plentiful thus arials are probably suppose to be more plentiful then giants and elves in general. So it is probably ok they have a lower exp pentatly.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=299&mesg_id=302&page=

No text - Well techincally that's text but nothing of interest here.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Just drop their int to 21.

I would also think wood-elves are the race that needs the biggest look at their penalty, but bards/rangers/druids are still nice as a welf. It is just welf warriors blow.

I don't like to project opinions, just seems like you have many things
that you don't like and aren't enjoying the rest. If arials were really
that strong there would be more than 2 out of the top 20 of pk. Not to
mention that 6 of the top 10 are fire giants or dark elves. If you
don't believe it, try it, see if you can make top 20 and then you may
argue.

Arials don't live past 500 hours usually.

In fact, used to be two/three good withers made an arial die in less than 200 hrs. Not sure how much that got mitigated with edges/changes to wither.

Ask Balrahd about arials. He had a death-like aversion to them for a long time. Or ORB.

I simply posted mine, and what I believe to be good evidence to support
my belief. As for hrs, I hold the #3 spot for hrs with an arial with
the records the way they are at 697. No matter what race a person picks
I think the imms did a good job of balancing penalties vs benefits even
with any changes they made. On paper a race may appear much better than
they are when played.

It's true that my favorite character, ever, age-died under 250 hours because he was a non-leader arial and got withered a ton.

But having played an arial warrior since then (Malakhi), I have to say arials make very nice warriors with almost any spec combination based almost entirely upon the 25 dex. On the other hand, I think giants have a lot of advantages over arials that reflect the 250 exp penalty differential between the two. Namely, weight capacities, bash, two-handed weapons, better vulns (except cloud giants), higher str, size-advantages against some attacks, more HP, and resist_physical.

Until you start getting up there in skill level, I think a giant is easier to play and do well PK wise than an arial. Once you reach a certain skill threshold, I think arials allow for more versatility that makes them more attractive than giants. I think it's comparable to automatic vs. manual transmission.

("Java" disclaimer time) Anyway, this obviously isn't an "official" viewpoint, and is just one player's opinion for debate's sake, but I personally don't think arials are worth 500 exp - despite the damage they can do in the hands of a skilled player.

I could be persuaded that giants get more for their 500xp penalty than arials get but the real comparison is arial vs drow and elf and arial seems to win that hands down.

Hence I was thinking either drop arial dex (ideal) or I guess you could go the other route of dropping XP penalties for drow and elves.

I cannot imagine why I'd ever pick a drow or elf over an arial, other than the fact that according to CF mythology arials have high pitched chirping sorts of voices (a trait almost never RP'd) and are uh, birds.

Most people actually RP them as humans with wings, which makes them epic compared to elves/drow.

I know from personal experience that I have chosen both drow and elf
over picking arial. The stats are similar in several ways and the
drawback to both drow and elf would be gear. I know several items that
I would love for arials to use that are either drow or elf only and many
of these pieces of gear are in large quantities because of the limited
number of them out there. Sure anyone could argue the same for arials
but they also have claws/wings/beak to contend with.

I also don't know how many times I would have wished for 1 or 2 more
int when I did play an arial both for the ease of practice and the boost
to natural mana.

Inherents I would say are pretty fairly balanced depending upon the
build as some classes gain the spell that mirrors it. Also not so big
if you've played before but infravision, and sneak are also helpful as
I can't count the # of times I simply missed someone who snuck by me.

As for rp, well you cant really get better than someone who lives 1k
years vs someone who dies at under 100.

It is the absolute last thing I would wish to see is the creators to
change a race but if anything makes arials more of a comparison to
elves and drow it is the INT. If every one of them used 2 prac instead
of one the thoughts may change greatly.

I am curious how many people are going off of pure speculation and
how many have had such interactions in the game that gives you these
notions of arial superiority?

These are only my opinions, based off of my character interactions in
game, Take them for what they are.

I've played them. I usually don't play arials (bird RP = lame) but I recently made one and I really felt like I was running around in super-tanking untrippable high int god mode compared to humans/half-elves that I usually play.

The age thing is a non-issue for the vast majority of people who never age-die chars like me.

The RP thing is a big whoop-de-doo for me as well.

23 int is very high as it is and vuln iron/mithril are so much worse than all the arial vulns combined. I'd take immunity vs trip over anything an elf/drow gets. I don't get why you keep underplaying how incredibly good it is to be untrippable.

I mean, it's only going to save your life a ####load, and cuts a number of thief build's "dangerousness" down by tons. And makes lowbie ranks much safer. etc etc etc alksdjfa;lskdf

First, you can easily prac each skill once with 23 INT and get away with it. It's only a 4% advantage and increasing their intelligence would help them in regards to a few legacies that shouldn't be viable tactics for an Arial, considering people do call them OP over and over. I would love to see Arials either lose some INT or some CON, but I don't think it would be a good idea. Elves/Drow players kind of shoot themselves in the foot. With the exception of a few builds, it's a much better idea to play an Arial. Still, like an Imm mentioned, people still play a lot of them. If you picked on Arials like this, no one would play them. The way I look at Arials vs Elves is this, though Elves have much worse handicaps than Arials, people will still play them because they want to RP the character, while as most Arials are played for excelling stats but you have to RP this dorky bird. Elves and Drow have the worst vuln(along with Duergar) the highest exp. penalty(along with Giants), and the lowest constitution. They don't need Arials moving in on their one excelling tribute, best INT.

Personally (again, std. "Java" disclaimer) I agree re: elves.

I can't think of a game balance reason for why elves have 500 exp. I can't play an elf fighting class past like rank 20 unless it's a ranger, and even then, I can't stand it.

That said, A LOT of people are playing elves. Despite the 500 penalty, despite the frailty, despite how nice giants and arials and felar and whatever are vis a vis elf fighting classes, a lot of people are playing elves. If you dropped the exp penalty for elves to 250, to match arials, I think even MORE people would play elves. Hell, I'd be tempted with a 250 penalty. So in the elf/dark-elf case, I think the exp. penalty might be based more on limiting their inherent-Roleplay desirability with a drawback, as opposed to limiting their inherent-PK desirability with a drawback (as is the case with arials).

Also, I'm glad we agree on giants and the 500 exp penalty vis a vis arials. Agreement is always nice

Shinkoujinae's player feels kinda bad about that IRL

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

... wore a lot of +age equipment. At one point he was 62 years old Emperor. Right before I anathemad myself I removed that +age gear so when I hit anathema I was 50 or 51 years old. Ended up 53 years old at 535 hours (Or something like that) knowing for a fact that Ckath would live to at least 62.

My GUESS is that HOURS have VERY VERY little to do with it. It's all based on the AGE. And I seriously doubt that wither ####s that over at all nowdays.

Then again, I had leader age/con from 140-150 hours or so up until 510ish hours, that helps a fair bit.

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

There's an edge that stops it affecting age, and makes it maladict dex.

Personally I'd rather maladict dex (even if it is only a little bit).

Here are some age deaths taken from Dio's Graveyard. Although arials can get terribly screwed by age death a la Orb's Harbinger, most of them have lived above 500 hours. Of those of the list, at least Fungor and Edika have aged normally, with Fungor being 70 years old but it not updating, the age death being due to accidental wearing of age+ gear. For an arial, one year is around 10 hours or so. They are normally quite long-lived in terms of hours, but will suffer a lot in terms of hours lost to wither due to short life in terms of years.


08/23/2009 14:46:02 <51 Arial Asn> (Age-Death) Edika LightFeather the Gambler's Girl, Deckhand $
Age: 73, Hours: 640, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Neutral
06/15/2009 19:35:40 <51 Arial Asn> (Age-Death) Susubienko Glomska the Swift Stroke of Death, Drillmistress of Battle $
Age: 66, Hours: 588, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Neutral
12/12/2007 13:04:09 <51 Arial War> (Age-Death) Pesawwkt T'ckark the Winged Razor of Courage, Marshall of the Fortress $
Age: 57, Hours: 525, Align: Good, Ethos: Chaotic
10/04/2007 15:23:35 <49 Arial Thi> (Age-Death) Falchiron the Rumor $
Age: 55, Hours: 463, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Chaotic
06/14/2007 10:39:32 <51 Arial Inv> (Age-Death) Haratzi Tzagzeth the Weaver of the Elements, Chancellor of Eternal Night $
Age: 60, Hours: 581, Align: Evil, Ethos: Orderly
06/04/2007 10:46:15 <51 Arial Con> (Age-Death) Eoal the Planewalker, Provincial Magistrate
Age: 70, Hours: 654, Align: Good, Ethos: Orderly
03/28/2007 23:02:47 <15 Arial Ran> (Age-Death) Kadin the Beastmaster
Age: 12231, Hours: 16, Align: Evil, Ethos: Neutral
09/07/2005 14:14:00 <51 Arial Bar> (Age-Death) Gerylanst So'Kanr the Bloodied Commander of Battle $
Age: 67, Hours: 727, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Neutral
08/23/2005 22:43:45 <44 Arial War> (Age-Death) Skryth Hexwing the Initiate of the Macalla, Harbinger of Thar-Eris $
Age: 28, Hours: 169, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Chaotic
07/07/2005 12:06:48 <51 Arial War> (Age-Death) Bahal the Legend of the Battlefield
Age: 41, Hours: 298, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Neutral

12/03/2004 04:08:09 <51 Arial Thi> (Age-Death) Calheil en'Sariyah the Hand of the Unseen, Bandit King of Hamsah Mu'tazz $
Age: 58, Hours: 505, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly
11/21/2004 17:59:41 <51 Arial Asn> (Age-Death) Fungor the Dai Sensei of the Miyama Ryu $
Age: 69, Hours: 625, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Neutral
07/25/2003 07:23:04 <51 Arial War> (Age-Death) Eluna the Mistress of the Speardance, Defiant to Gods
Age: 66, Hours: 601, Align: Good, Ethos: Orderly, PK Ratio: 77%
04/23/2003 13:37:19 <51 Arial Thi> (Age-Death) Bhagavan the Hand of the Unseen
Age: 65, Hours: 582, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Chaotic, PK Ratio: 83%
06/12/2002 02:47:26 <51 Arial Thi> (Age-Death) Rio the Perfect Crime, Honored Blade of War
Age: 65, Hours: 659, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Chaotic, PK Ratio: 66%

Where did I say I didn't like arials?

It's not that arials are too strong, it's that dex has become the single most important factor in all things melee, and the difference in one point of dex is huge.

Between melee logic, edges, legacies, various skill mechanics, evade, etc., arial warriors have simply a solid advantage.

Their power ceiling might not be any higher than other builds, but an arial dagger spec, for example, goes a lot farther on a lot less than many other builds.

As for the vulns, meh. It's pretty uncommon to have to fight against water/drowning, and even then, the vuln is usually negated by something like prot/stoneskin, so while you aren't taking vuln damage, you're at least fighting like you're unprepped. And lightning? There are a couple very easy to get resist_lightning preps, though as I go over logs, it seems like most of the time people don't even bother using lightning on arials, perhaps because they assume they will have resist or, more likely, they have weapons that are just so much better than the weapons that are lightning attack that they're still better off using those vs. going for the vuln. Of course most of this applies to other races too.

At the end of the day though, it's about dex and, to a degree, int. Quick, smart races carry a huge advantage over others, and I won't be convinced otherwise.

Giant sword spec might be equally as nasty, but then again, given how easy it is for an arial with edges and legacies to outright dodge flurries and bashes, I dunno.

A ton of other race/spec builds can be strong too, but still usually lose to smart/dexy dagger builds all things being equal, and/or have to work a lot harder for it. I wouldn't call it "broken", just very skewed.

Permaflight at the cost of a gear slot + very good stats doesn't, in my opinion, make up for vuln-lighting + vuln-water + hydrophobia.

Duergar have the same xp penalty and detect hidden + very good stats is still a better deal than what arials get, even with the crappy duergar vulns.

For the record, I think race xp penalties are right where they need to be. Classes, on the other hand...

I just played my first arial recently and to be honest, yeah, there's a lot of things now I'd never play any other race besides arial for.

Hydrophobia is one of those things you can more or less ignore.

Vuln-Water is hard to exploit besides as an invoker, ditto for vuln-lightning though somewhat less so (but you tank like a champ so, weapon vulns aren't nearly as bad).

In exchange you can never be tripped, get an area attack for bringing out hiding types if you can't see them already and get pimp stats (high int for spamming, super high dex).

I think they'd be ok if their dex got knocked down to 23.

n/t

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

n/t

I'd take water/lightning vuln over wrath any day of the week.

Duergars have the worst vuln on the game in my opinion, especially solidified by the fact that goodies almost *always* have wrath and they're forced to be evil.

With arials, hydrophobia means I have to put myself at a small risk and be a little aggravated if I want serpent scale gear and that I can't rank on spirits. And water vuln you RARELY come across and I pop purple potions all day. Thus meaning their vulns are seriously negated. Where wrath vuln is WAY harder to cover especially if you don't use scrolls.

Arials being 500 xp penalty is a very very legitimate thing to request from the IMM's I think. There's no reason not to, especially after dex changes... the track record of what it's made us have to adapt to... and the fact that races like elves and drow are 500 and I'd chose arial over them any day unless it's a role.

Granted, I had forgotten about wingsweep and how sweet it is when the mob with the gear you want is hidden or camoed.

But what really got me is trying to think of a time I'd pick an elf or a drow over an arial and I'm struggling to come up with enough good reasons.

But mainly only to exploit certain legacies, permasneak, or mages where a healthier race would be offset by a careful player maxing the elf's in and accumulating trains. For many of the mages, once the character is on the offense the iron vuln becomes less of an issue. There's also swiftstrike to stack with passive skills that trigger extra attacks and all the sweet goodie progging gear. Gear an elf right and you never have to put in a command beyond the initiator and sometimes evils will drop in a round or two once all is said and done unless they can drop your dex fast and hard, which other than dagger and mace is harder to do than str.

Drow on the other hand you would only play to play a traditionally good-only build as evil.

There is no reason to play wood-elf even if you justify it by saying you need a neutral elf. Unless you're playing a ranger or druid (and even in the realm of rangers, cloud giant is king but most folks hate being limited solely to bearcharge and a select few dislike losing scrolls) you are limiting yourself more often than not for limited detect camo the majority of the time you don't even need.

Elves and drow are still both better off than their half-race counterparts, but the vast majority of things you could do for wood-elves and drow, you can do better with an arial or with enough patience and a savviness to end your fights before it comes into play (or going rager) a duergar.

/nt except to say, pun intended.