i wont repeat what he said but I will put down the rules from the game and my spin on them ish....

first off not saying what torak did what right or wrong since i dont know all the crap behind it but from what i have read of the like 100 post message below and of whats on dio's this is what I think.

* If you know another player OOC, treat their character as you would any other.
This disallows having multiple characters 'attached at the hip'. See
PERMAGROUP.

1. like the post below i think that this means you should be able to play with your friends as long as you keep it all rp and dont do any shannagins


A 'permagroup' is defined as two or more characters who rarely do
anything without the other. In essence, if you very rarely adventure
without a particular person, you are part of a permagroup. (Logging
in and sitting in your guild or gathering items while waiting for
your perma-partner(s), for instance, does not count as "doing
something".)

Avoiding being part of a permagroup is easy:

1) Mix up the people you travel with. This is a good idea for reasons
other than avoiding permagrouping - it gathers you a larger network
of allies to call on when you are in need.

2) Treat everyone according to their IC merits. One simple way to
guarantee this is to not tell other people who you are playing.

3) Ask yourself if you are exploiting your connection to the other
character(s) to gain an unfair advantage over another player. This
can be a difficult determination to make, but fairness to other
players will be at the heart of the staff's decision, so weigh it
carefully.

See also RULES.

2. i think this is just reenforced by the first rule.. and like the wise one Eskelian said as long as people arent running around in a oath or die squad of five decamating everyone i personally have no problem with the hell trip or the whatever...

3. and with the player base being so low right now it honestly seems to me like i perma with strangers allot, i play at wierd late night hours and there is normally about 4-6 people in my pk at max so i find the three that are compatable with me and we rank everynight or every other or what have you... just seems to me as long as someone is not abusing it then leave it alone...and i fought torak with one of my latest chars and he is no entropy lich or cabru so not even sure what all the magic super elite gear from hell he got, ha

The issue of the fact that we coordinated explore trips and got denied is completely in the past.

Right now the thread is simply about the possibility of changing a rule that a large number (considering the size of the playerbase) wish to see changed, at least slightly, so that they can play with their friends at least a little, that may breathe life into the game, something we all desire.

Oddly enough, I've only found myself in a group with one of them once, about five years ago.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong.

n/t

Kind of hard to put something like that out of everyone's head right away, so saying it's completely in the past doesn't really change anything. I think what needs to happen is clearer set of rules because the ones about this are overly vague. It opens up a can of worms as well, are we suddenly going to see twenty person explore groups? What would be good is if the Imms opened up a dialogue about this and see what their main issues are and if there are better ways to address them. I mean it's become pretty obvious that there are alot of groups of players out there who bring their ooc relationships into game in some form, Imms included! What seems lame is that it's enforced at random(or maybe not) and anyone remotely associated gets caught in the crossfire. I mean a bunch of characters get denied for setting up a helltrip OOC, but others are allowed to take control of a cabal and gank everything that moves with no problem. Not saying what you guys did was within the rules, but there needs to be alot more clarification and consistancy at the very least and maybe some changes to adapt to the reality of playing online games at the best. So let's get some constructive discussion going.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

nt

It's not like this is going away....if you're chatting about it internally, least let us know that.

but if I were on staff, with access to the information they have, my line of reasoning might well sound like this: "You may feel the situation justified it, but you broke rules established to prevent people from gaining undue advantage over their peers."

Even if I did not gain a single piece of gear from the Inferno, I would openly welcome the edges the exploration and observation experience would allow me to buy (note: This is a huge perq for some classes, but I acknowledge that edges are not created equal for all classes).

These are my thoughts, which may or may not align with those of others.

If your bar for "undue advantage" is observation XP then the game must come across as not even remotely fair to you. I mean, really?

Anyway, I think on the Imm side they don't particularly care - especially since this involved Torak who they openly have a grudge against.

I think its sorta petty how people rank "cheating in CF" up with "cheating on your wife" on the scumbag scale but then again I have no authority over anything so what does it matter what I think?

Did he get something he couldn't have gotten from the Inferno without an ooc group? Would that give him an 'edge' (advantage) over people who did not resort to the same means?

Oh, probably. I'm not arguing extremes with you. I'm simply beating a dead horse, just like Torak.

I learned how parry works from Nep OOC. Clearly I have an undue advantage.

If that's the bar you set then Nep ranking with Rayihn is permagrouping and cheating since, obviously, gaining ranks is a lot more of an undue advantage than obs XP.

it would be illegal for Nep to say, "Honey, log on and rank me up." Many people have found themselves in the RotD if they and their friends logged on from the same IP. Things are pretty clear on that.

As for learning how parry works OOC, it would have been grossly inappropriate if an administrator and coder had told you how parry was coded, but kept it a secret from everyone else. One of the reasons why I think the Q/A forums are fantastic is that it there can be no meritorious allegations of favoritism or cheating if the information is publicly available. To clarify with another example, compare the cries of outrage if it became publicly known that Nep gave his wand list to Torak versus Nep posting his wand list on the Game Board.

I hope this helps.

It's been stated elsewhere that ranking with your friends isn't an issue as long as you're not wiping out your PK range.

I think the bottom line is that, for the last 3 years or so I've been playing Eve and in Eve, this whole concept of not talking to people out of game is foreign and bizarre. The game is meant to played with other people. The tools in the game are built to favor that behavior. Having social skills is as highly regarded as having PVP talent.

As a result, the group vs group fights are a lot better. Because you can actually coordinate with people, which means they do things that make sense instead of each group member doing their own thing and being retarded. You can have long term goals because you can actually coordinate and organize it out of game.

And if someone came out and cried about "it's not fair" because they're social misfits they'd get laughed off the forums. Torak plays Eve too, which is probably partially why this whole "I can't raid Hell with my friends" seems retarded to him and it seems retarded to me as well.

One of the biggest turnoffs when I first came to CF was that there was no global OOC channel.

IC I could curse that motherless son of a goat out, but I could always type "OOC You sure ate my face this time. Good work, Tash". It did require the immortals to police the channel, though, and I'm sure it grew old for them, just as it does when someone decides to spam the newbie channel. Then and there, like now and here, there are gray areas where some people got away with crap and others were smacked down like red-headed step children. Subjectivity can create issues.

On the whole, I think the "Keeping It Real" (sorry, my kids watch the Jonas Brothers) approach for CF probably limits the social drama and the in-game abuse that marauding groups of friends can create.

I think the biggest thing that people seem to forget is that it's pretty clear Torak actually broke the rule as it stands. They punished him. That's pretty ####ing simple.

You can argue the rule should change or the punishment should change or they should have handled it differently, but as it stands, it all went legitimately.

He DID gain an unfair advantage (equipment, and not just from Hell) by having all his buddies make explore-spec builds to work with him. It's cause and effect. The consequence of his OOC planning resulted in him having the means to get things he otherwise wouldn't have gotten.

I happen to think the rules are lame and that playing with friends should simply be allowed and the benefits you get from it acceptable, at least to a point, when it's not directly about PK (ie, me and my pals roll an AP, thief, bard, etc. PK perma), but that's not what the rules say I can do, so if I do it, I expect to get whacked.

Out of time.. back to meetings.

Maybe you're one of those guys that thinks that just because something is stupid is no reason to change it. I'm not one of those guys. That's probably why I've achieved things in my life, you know, by seeing a problem and fixing it instead of being a sheep with a bad attitude.

I agree with you. I'd love to see the rules changed and I've said in other posts that I've done things that would get me in trouble under HELP PERMA as well.

My point is that 90% of the arguments people are making aren't constructive or even valid.

Likewise I've expressed my opinion (which is similar to yours, I think) about the topic on the forums as well. Given that's all any player can do, I don't think I'm being a sheep. I might have a bad attitude, though.

Again, people should be talking about why they think the rules and the culture should shift, not about why Torak shouldn't have been punished for plain-as-day breaking the rules just because they disagree with them.

You'd be very very disappointed.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

nt

There is very little to be had, in my experience. If you got some it was either all there was to get, or if you think it was alot then it was most likely not from just there.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I've gone through to Satan with a few stops along the way on multiple characters and I think the most I ever got was 1-1.5k - total for all the Inferno, looking at stuff.

They added a sprinkling, but that's about it. You can get triple that in newbie areas at low levels.

and I got what I thought was a reasonable amount of obs/explore for the risk.

Maybe if I had hung out with a different crowd I'd have your keen insight in how terrible that area actually is. Thanks for the tip!

#34385, "Maybe a controversial opinion."
Edited on Fri 06-Aug-10 02:06 PM by Eskelian



I think the perma-grouping rules should be limited to wiping out PK ranges and sucking up Empire sect leader spots and not enforced as they pertain to anything else.

First of all, the whole "you shouldn't interact with people you know out of game" or even if you go so far as to roll up chars to compliment each other on a hell trip is not against the rules. Its against your very loose, very flexible interpretation of the rule. The rule actually says :

* If you know another player OOC, treat their character as you would any other.
This disallows having multiple characters 'attached at the hip'. See
PERMAGROUP.

That rule itself is reasonable and easy to follow but that's not the rule you're actually enforcing.

But really, what does the rule boil down to me in terms of how it benefits "the newbie" and other players? It boils down to not getting steam rolled by a permagroup in PVP. I could seriously give a half #### less if someone needs to coordinate with someone else to run the hell trip they want to run, so long as I'm not excluded purely because I don't know them OOC. If they get uber gear that I want I'll just kill them and take it, that's how the game works.

I like the idea of people hanging out in game who know each other OOC. Games should be social. That's what makes them engaging. All the secrecy and whining and cry-babying about people's characters is at best a distraction and at worst a detriment to playing the game, but it sure doesn't keep people "hooked". It's to the point where people are afraid of letting anyone OOC know who their char IC is and that to me really is a missed opportunity to make the game more fun.

....and keep hoping an Imm actually responds to it. 13 responses saying it's awesome, you'd think it'd get something.

Oh sorry, Scrimbul disapproves.

i did not want it to get lost in all the spam

Maybe they're still discussing.

I feel like its one of those things where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. There's still some people who look at CF as a way of proving themselves and put a whole lot of value in PK stats and competition and would see even going to hell with people you know OOC as an unfair advantage as marginal as it is over their characters and that alone would be enough for them to try to block it.

I'm past that stage of my life honestly. I don't feel like I need to prove myself to anyone here. I'm just looking to have a good time and not stroke my ego over my PVP talents. And really the game is more fun when you rank and stuff with people you know. And if I put in the effort to max out my skills and perfect spells and stuff and outline out my role for 2 days building out a nice back-story to my char I don't want to get them denied.

I also feel like its one of those things where you can just pull someone aside and tell them to "play better with others" rather than straight out denying someone. I think the latter should be a last option, resorted to only for people who are actively posing a problem for the rest of the player-base. If someone is in market square yelling, "#### you all" then go ahead and deny them but if they sacrifice the wrong dude in Hell just give them a warning. The drama of denying someone over something so trivial is really overkill and makes people afraid to enjoy the game.

The Valg-esque "you knew how the rule was interpreted and disobeyed it so begone with you" attitude is just really inappropriate given the topic matter - a *multi-player roleplaying game*.

Optimized groups that steamroll everything in their range is bad, I think everybody agrees with that.

But after that? Every game is more fun if you can play it with friends and CF is the only one that somehow tries to prevent that. It would be such a boon if the rules would be interpreted in a more relaxed way.