Re: Orcs, how do their PK ratios/gankometers stack up to other classes?

From what I could tell an axe/hand fire giant (one example, but I could come up with 20 that aren't as good of an analogy) is better in almost every way.

The problem with orcs is all of their skills feel pre-nerfed, just like neo-thieves. Like the example of forced march killing you if you do it too many times - would they really be overpowered if that didn't happen? Lack of fourth attack is another example and so is lack of shield block and the fact that headbutt doesn't work with dual wield. I feel like if some of the dozens of restrictions on the orcs were lifted they might actually be competitive with a run of the mill giant build.

Given their "may not join cabals" and Outlanders attack me restriction you'd think they should actually be more powerful out of the box than a generic warrior build since they can't even walk out of their hometown without having to deal with some random druid calling the hunt on them.

I'd actually care about an argument of Orcs being underpowered.

I'm just glad that spinebreaker fails as much as it does. Being stunned for three game hours while the Orc sits there and heals up, just so you can get bashed with ***DEVA savage feeding some more. Against your average player, Orcs really aren't the bad. And people who underestimate an Orcs ability to PK will generally be surprised by something within the Orc arsenal.

They just don't stack up well against people with bash protection and a number of veteran players who know how to deal with the class.

I just don't think they are as largely underpowered as people make them out to be. People just don't take the time to skill spam like they do with most other classes, because its a whole lot more difficult with an Orc. Get an Orc with a bunch of perfected skills and they start looking a lot better.

Just as an example, I couldn't find a single Orc PBF where the Orc perfected both defenses.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I'm starting to agree with you. I might reclassify my opinion from "Orcs are generally underpowered" to "Orcs are generally not fun to play". The latter being a combination of uber prepping, lack of cabal, gankdowns outside the village and int of 15.

Then again I'm the sort of guy that has never heroed any race with less than a 20 intelligence because I loathe spamming skills.

They might be able to stick around for some bash action.

If it fails, you're probably not getting another chance.

Furthermore, it's often the case that orcs get mowed down even after chugging blood.

Look at the Old log of Tallanthalas vs the chief with his horde. He lost but survived and still gave the chief a hard hard time.

>Re: Orcs, how do their PK ratios/gankometers stack up to
>other classes?

Pre-hero there are a lot of heavily successful orcs. Seeing an orc hit hero range at some multiple of 10:1 or 20:1 is not that uncommon.

At hero, I think warrior, oddly, is a bad comparison because it's the most customizable class by far and one of the most perennially popular classes by far. I think orc stacks up reasonably well against most classes in terms of at-hero-range success.

That being said, I will say that orcs lose a bit of their oomph at hero, but I think that has more to do with the way the nature of PK changes at hero. That is to say, it's heavily based around cabal raids and not ranking groups.

>From what I could tell an axe/hand fire giant (one example,
>but I could come up with 20 that aren't as good of an analogy)
>is better in almost every way.

To some degree, I think putting berserker up against fire axe and thinking fire axe looks a lot better is like putting thug thief up against fire axe and thinking fire axe looks a lot better. In some sense, yeah, it definitely does, but I think it misses a bigger picture.

I think berserker compares more closely with something like thief or ranger than warrior, in the sense that, yeah, orcs can potentially put out a ton of melee damage but a lot of their strength is in their utility skills.

>The problem with orcs is all of their skills feel pre-nerfed,
>just like neo-thieves. Like the example of forced march
>killing you if you do it too many times - would they really be
>overpowered if that didn't happen?

Probably not, though I think it adds a little fun flavor vs. just being told you can't force march any more.

>Lack of fourth attack is
>another example

To give you one utility counter-example, when fury of the clan is in play a berserker will, on average, take more attacks per round than a warrior with fourth attack.

Does that make the two equal in pure melee damage overall? Not really, but then, orcs aren't warriors. (Although I wouldn't really object to berserkers having fourth attack at high levels.)

Thing is I can't really compare a thief and a ranger with an orc. Both of those classes are stealth classes. Having hide in caves doesn't make an orc a stealth class. I draw a closer analogy of orc hide with treeform than with camo/hide from a ranger/thief. If you take creep away from a ranger no one would play them - even if they still had snare, herbs, wilderness fam, rangers staves, etc.

My last orc (a skrugga) was able to beat a powerhouse warrior (until they called in another powerhouse warrior and double-teamed me). Forget the name but it was the maran leader at the time.

I was also able to beat a 2h dedicant paladin toe to toe (without bash -- overrun is pretty nice and a skrugga can take the beating longer than other orcs giving the horde a chance to do their thing).

Do I think an orc is on a par with a strength warrior? Not in many cases, but for certain situations they can be superior. Headbutt is still useful (unless someone reduced to stop you doing it).

Personally I'd say what orcs need is:
- choice of hometown, so people can't just cut them off with ease. Yes, I do know about the alternatives to walking out of the village.
- ability to cabal at the cost of their adaptation.
- give them lore
- give mundunugus some minor communes. Perhaps the more obscure ones. Cure light wounds, inspiration, etc.
- give orcs the ability to "block" for each other. e.g. Perhaps akin to pack sense, where an orc taking the hits gets let off some attacks because the attacker has to spin to protect themselves for being encircled by the orcs.

There have certainly been a number of people who have figured out how to be succesful at all ranks with an orc. Since those people orcs have gotten easier and stronger.

Just as a hint if you are fighting like a warrior try fighting like an orc instead.

PK is all about using what you got to win. Orcs have a couple of really super big strengths that can really be devastating when you bring them to the table at the right time.

Keep in mind they can perma lag, rank in the top tiers in terms of damage output, can heal themselves, hide, have mob help, can essentially knock people out, maledict, etc. they have a lot of tools to win fights with.

I think the toughest part about an orc is the int, honestly once your skills are up they are nasty, getting them there is the rough part. I would like to see an orc specific skill learning boost. I mean all orcs know essentially the same exact things both pc and npc and decreased variation should result in increased effectiveness.

Edit: fixed the spelling of curious.

Edited to say that, hell they need some love obviously. But after having smear implemented I know they are going in the right direction and I want the Imms to know that. This coming from a 5-6 Chieftain player.

Here are some of the benefits Orcs get.

1. They can hide in any cave, there are a lot of caves.

2. They can heal more and faster than any other class in the game, yes this takes time in the form of "Orc Preps" but I've utterly slaughtered extremely strong characters in my Orc tenure by getting them somewhat hurt and pretending to run away, fully healing and "Bashing" them.

3. They have "Bash" with cheapshot and savage feeding. They have the single strongest lagging ability, with a huge damage attack, in the game hands down, one that is somewhat difficult to "prep" against and if you lose your natural "Protective Shield" skill will die to. That is kill sealing ability.

4. They have neat adapatation paths that you can choose from which was an exceptional change from pre-adapt Orcs. Each has its own niche path, but there have been decent Orcs in all categories except Mundunugu.

5. They have the most efficient "stun" ability in the game. Yes, I just recently figured out it has way more limitations than I would like it to have but I'll live with that due to the fact that it hits so often.

6. They have the ability to enslave a very strong backup character for either extra damage or taking hits. Lord I wish Thrak was still around so that they don't run away when you flee, his Tat did that. That should be an edge btw! Enslave creatures don't run when you flee... I would kill for this.

7. They get super cool rpee, and your quote that a giant is better in all ways is ridiculous. If you want to play a giant then play a giant, I'll take my Orc and punk you and it'll be great. Orcs aren't giants and their skill set is so much different and far more useful in specific situations, my Orc has more survivability than your Giant.

8. They can take cabal items from any cabal, you can start wars with whoever you want. I think that is very cool.

9. Chieftain having a horde every few RL hours is siiiick, anyone who has played a Chieftain knows this extremely well.

10. Smear! Kickass idea way to go Valg, if Kubilak had smear he wouldn't have been Age-Dead in 300 hours. It fits soooo well to help out Orcs I can't even explain it.

That's just a few off the top of my head.

Edited to say that, hell they need some love obviously. But after having smear implemented I know they are going in the right direction and I want the Imms to know that. This coming from a 5-6 Chieftain player.

Here are some of the benefits Orcs get.

1. They can hide in any cave, there are a lot of caves.
(Only after a certain level and it’s pretty far up there, 35 I think.)


2. They can heal more and faster than any other class in the game, yes this takes time in the form of "Orc Preps" but I've utterly slaughtered extremely strong characters in my Orc tenure by getting them somewhat hurt and pretending to run away, fully healing and "Bashing" them.
(No they can’t, warriors can with a certain legacy and heal preps are avail to all, not to mention Bards, rangers, healers etc)


3. They have "Bash" with cheapshot and savage feeding. They have the single strongest lagging ability, with a huge damage attack, in the game hands down, one that is somewhat difficult to "prep" against and if you lose your natural "Protective Shield" skill will die to. That is kill sealing ability.
(Bash is easily overcome)


4. They have neat adapatation paths that you can choose from which was an exceptional change from pre-adapt Orcs. Each has its own niche path, but there have been decent Orcs in all categories except Mundunugu.
(Adapts are pretty cool)


5. They have the most efficient "stun" ability in the game. Yes, I just recently figured out it has way more limitations than I would like it to have but I'll live with that due to the fact that it hits so often.
(It’s not that great and if you miss it you’re often dead or fleeing.)


6. They have the ability to enslave a very strong backup character for either extra damage or taking hits. Lord I wish Thrak was still around so that they don't run away when you flee, his Tat did that. That should be an edge btw! Enslave creatures don't run when you flee... I would kill for this.
(Slaves run off if you’re jacked or what ever or sleeping for that uber fast healing you were talking about.)


7. They get super cool rpee, and your quote that a giant is better in all ways is ridiculous. If you want to play a giant then play a giant, I'll take my Orc and punk you and it'll be great. Orcs aren't giants and their skill set is so much different and far more useful in specific situations, my Orc has more survivability than your Giant.
(RP is all they have going for them.)


8. They can take cabal items from any cabal, you can start wars with whoever you want. I think that is very cool.

9. Chieftain having a horde every few RL hours is siiiick, anyone who has played a Chieftain knows this extremely well.
(Horde is neat, but nothing a couple fireballs doesn’t take care of.)

10. Smear! Kickass idea way to go Valg, if Kubilak had smear he wouldn't have been Age-Dead in 300 hours. It fits soooo well to help out Orcs I can't even explain it.
(Yeah, the new stuff looks cool.)
That's just a few off the top of my head.

Was paladins who had an edge that gave them a guaranteed strike with their shield against every attacker. Would wipe out the horde in no time, but especially the weaker ones (and I'd normally want to use overrun against shield dedicant paladins).

The thing about orcs is I think they are REALLY strong in groups, but not so hot solo.

In groups, they can swing the 3 v 3 into a series of 3 v 1 ganks. (I've always felt that spinebreaker is better as an offensive weapon than a defensive last minute escape tactic.)

There are other nifty things they can do in groups too, but that's just an example.

NT

I did email Mergulla within a week of my last log in to say that I would have to step down as I had no time to play any more. Turned out she'd just done it anyway, which is fine in my book.

So whilst I didn't physically delete I did pretty much hit the delete button.

Responding to some of both of the above...

> No they can’t, warriors can with a certain legacy and heal
>preps are avail to all, not to mention Bards, rangers, healers
>etc)

You know about exsanguinate, right?

>3. They have "Bash" with cheapshot and savage feeding. They
>have the single strongest lagging ability, with a huge damage
>attack, in the game hands down, one that is somewhat difficult
>to "prep" against and if you lose your natural "Protective
>Shield" skill will die to. That is kill sealing ability.
> Bash is easily overcome)

I've been playing the game for 15 years, and bash still kills me more than any other ability. I've killed well-played (e.g. heavily favorable PK ratio) members of every class in the game with bash at hero.

There's a lot you can potentially do about bash. There's also a lot the orc can potentially do about what you do about bash.

>4. They have neat adapatation paths that you can choose from
>which was an exceptional change from pre-adapt Orcs. Each has
>its own niche path, but there have been decent Orcs in all
>categories except Mundunugu.

I can recall a few ~ 40-1 PK ratio Mundunugus, for what it's worth.

If nothing else, soot ritual is fantastic against lightforged weapons and sunray.

>5. They have the most efficient "stun" ability in the game.
>Yes, I just recently figured out it has way more limitations
>than I would like it to have but I'll live with that due to
>the fact that it hits so often.
> It’s not that great and if you miss it you’re often dead or
>fleeing.)

You're doing it wrong.

>6. They have the ability to enslave a very strong backup
>character for either extra damage or taking hits. Lord I wish
>Thrak was still around so that they don't run away when you
>flee, his Tat did that. That should be an edge btw! Enslave
>creatures don't run when you flee... I would kill for this.
> Slaves run off if you’re jacked or what ever or sleeping for
>that uber fast healing you were talking about.)

You don't sleep for the uber fast healing. You chug.

Yeah, enslave has its limitations, although there's some pretty great enslaveable spec/casting mobs out there that can be enslaved too.

>9. Chieftain having a horde every few RL hours is siiiick,
>anyone who has played a Chieftain knows this extremely well.
> Horde is neat, but nothing a couple fireballs doesn’t take
>care of.)

Okay, so invokers and A-Ps can go through it fast and that makes it useless or a non-factor?

1. Hiding in caves, doesn't really help that much...considering they all know where you recall to being a setback.

2. Not really, especially given people can get speckled pills and other means with prep. Sure, it's the lazy route but it also requires a lot of time....when you could just spend coin on pills.

3. Savage feeding is the only reason an orc isn't the worst on the list, and they nerfed it when you get it. And protective shield, anticipate, invoker shields, etc all make it near-useless. Basing strength on catching someone with their pants down, doesn't help when you're a non-stealth class.

4. Anything besides Mamlauk has been pretty bad from what I've seen - I think Batman had a Shig-ru chieftain that was ok but that's pushing it.

5. Yeah, was going to say the limitations...have to be in combat, 3 round lag, they wake up from "evading" spam, have to be smaller in size, etc.

6. The enslave is kinda nice but they're nothing compared to other "pets" (conjurer pets, ranger bears/wolves, etc).

7. RP is RP.

8. They all hate you anyways, starting a war by keeping their item just adds fuel to the full loot fire.

9. Never had it *shrug*

10. What does smear do anyways? Or grit?

I've played Skrugga (chief) and Mundunugu (lvl 50) and I would genuinely say that skrugga is as good for some players as Mamlauk. Their extra defense is pretty significant and actually their skills give some useful extra offense. If I'd had to fight a Mamlauk for chief, I'd actually have bet on myself to win (partly because of how edges work for each of the two kinds of orc).

Mamlauk will get more kills, but Skrugga is still pretty damn good.

Mundunugu... nice idea. Needs more work still. The lag on gravesleep is an issue. The timer on gravesleep is an issue. The mana cost of gravesleep is an issue. For example, if a necro gets you and you teleport, odds are you don't have the mana left to gravesleep.

Other stuff crumbled a bit too much. Stuff from pc's was excellent but the problem is to get those pc corpses you need to do something other than hunt solo.

>3. Savage feeding is the only reason an orc isn't the worst on
>the list, and they nerfed it when you get it. And protective
>shield, anticipate, invoker shields, etc all make it
>near-useless. Basing strength on catching someone with their
>pants down, doesn't help when you're a non-stealth class.

If only you had a way to paralyze people for a few ticks while their durations run down.

>4. Anything besides Mamlauk has been pretty bad from what I've
>seen - I think Batman had a Shig-ru chieftain that was ok but
>that's pushing it.

I've seen successful orcs of every adaptation.

That being said, if you insist on trying to play an orc as much like a warrior as possible, yeah, Mamlauk is probably where it's at -- but I think that's like saying, if you've got four screwdrivers and you insist on pounding nails in with one of them, the biggest and heaviest screwdriver is best suited to it.

>8. They all hate you anyways, starting a war by keeping their
>item just adds fuel to the full loot fire.

... because when I'm playing Fortress and Empire raids me, I make sure to full loot them for taking my item.

I'm sorry, that argument doesn't make any sense.

> ... because when I'm playing Fortress and Empire raids me, I make sure to full loot them for taking my item

I dunno. In the past, I've gotten a little annoyed at orcs who consistently glom onto Empire/Scion raiding parties just so they can gang down Fort defenders. Especially when the orc is attaching himself to both Empire *and* Scion (somehow managing to maintain cordial relations with each enemy cabal).

>If only you had a way to paralyze people for a few ticks while
>their durations run down.

The limitations with this skill, plus them "evading" out of their stun if you spam anything besides using trample, makes this little trick not so nice or easy. You can say the same about waiting out bloodthirst, but you'll die in the 2 rounds it takes to trample/spinebreak. I see your point but in practice it's not as great as it looks.

>>4. Anything besides Mamlauk has been pretty bad from what
>I've
>>seen - I think Batman had a Shig-ru chieftain that was ok
>but
>>that's pushing it.
>
>I've seen successful orcs of every adaptation.

Who had a successful Mundungu? If you're talking about Mek's orc, he hated it

>That being said, if you insist on trying to play an orc as
>much like a warrior as possible, yeah, Mamlauk is probably
>where it's at -- but I think that's like saying, if you've got
>four screwdrivers and you insist on pounding nails in with one
>of them, the biggest and heaviest screwdriver is best suited
>to it.

Isn't that the main purpose of the orc class

>>8. They all hate you anyways, starting a war by keeping
>their
>>item just adds fuel to the full loot fire.
>
>... because when I'm playing Fortress and Empire raids me, I
>make sure to full loot them for taking my item.
>
>I'm sorry, that argument doesn't make any sense.

Yeah I guess it was more of a spotlight on you that's really not needed - as an orc you don't want them to have more incentive to come beat you up, least from my experience. It's better to lay low. Maybe I should have played a Skrugga back then because of that.

>You can say the same
>about waiting out bloodthirst, but you'll die in the 2 rounds
>it takes to trample/spinebreak. I see your point but in
>practice it's not as great as it looks.
>


FYI Unless it's been changed, this is actually a horrifically effective counter to bloodthirst - so effective it would be a really bad idea to thirst against orcs in most cases. I'm starting to think it's possible that you've never played an orc .. or at least, a rager berserker

All this orc talk is motivating me to roll one up, myself, when I get the time. But then I think about the 16 wis. I'm not sure I can deal with one pract/level. Dealing with that is something I'd be interested in debriGuy/other-Orc-player's input on, as opposed to orc powers which I think are pretty nifty and versatile.

It's 2 practices per level.....and you mean, I don't know, something like Orc Fest to spur you to play?

Immediatly shook off succesful spinebreak and killed me before my lag wore off. That was a while back like s years ago.

Spinebreaker is a terrible skill to use in PK unless it's done in the beginning.

On to Daevryn's thing about exsang... It's got a very long timer and skins are hungry and you can go through them fast in a fight. Keeping many on hand isn't all that easy, even with the super secret blood barrel.

>1. Hiding in caves, doesn't really help that
>much...considering they all know where you recall to being a
>setback.

I know where most Empire guys recall to. I know where most Fort guys recall to. Etc. Besides, this is why teleport potions exist. The original poster was comparing an orc to a fire giant axe/hand warrior. Warrior doesn't have hide, outlander notwithstanding.

>2. Not really, especially given people can get speckled pills
>and other means with prep. Sure, it's the lazy route but it
>also requires a lot of time....when you could just spend coin
>on pills.

Orc can also use speckled pills. Speckled pills + orc blood > just speckled pills. Pills fill you up. Afaik eating pills has more lag.

>3. Savage feeding is the only reason an orc isn't the worst on
>the list, and they nerfed it when you get it. And protective
>shield, anticipate, invoker shields, etc all make it
>near-useless. Basing strength on catching someone with their
>pants down, doesn't help when you're a non-stealth class.

Do your warriors never catch anybody who isn't expecting you and ready for you? Seriously? Orc skills make you more able to capitalize on those situations. They also make you potentially more dangerous than our theoretical fire warrior to a would-be thief/assassin attacker. That guy has to deal with the fact that if he fails the knockout/assassinate he's most likely lagged for a good while and eating savage feeding damage. Uber-prepared thief/assassin may still win that exchange, but most don't.

>6. The enslave is kinda nice but they're nothing compared to
>other "pets" (conjurer pets, ranger bears/wolves, etc).

He wasn't comparing orcs to rangers or conjurers, he was comparing orcs to a fire giant axe/hand warrior.

Hide isn't very useful when you can't move and it only works in caves. Ask any cavern dweller ranger how often you'll be able to take advantage of that for anything other than waiting out nightgaunts. Saying orcs have hide is a misnomer - its not useful. Chameleon is 100x better than hide and you get it just for being an outlander.

Not every fire giant axe/hand warrior is an outlander.

Just from my limited experiences over the years, they really don't stack up and there is a reason why you see so few. And sadly the Immortals seem set on adding little things trying to push it over the edge but it needs quite a bit more than that. Grit and smear may be better than I assume but yeah, I doubt they come close to anything like warriors - especially anything non-Mamlauk. It's also got some problems with bugs (like evade breaking spinebreaker if something is spammed).

A great example of this argument would be trap thieves - who despite every little "small" addition are one of the worst classes imho. And they've added little things like pepper dust (which sucks from what I heard from Mekantos) but the core problem relies on more than just little additions. It's like taking a permanent flaw at character creation honestly. (On that note, now that the trees are mixable easier it may have some use up to a point but going full trapper is just not worth it)

Anyways, just my 2 cents. The class has fundamentals it's lacking in compared to others in balance...

Before I realized the thread was locked, I wanted to respond to this post by Daev:

">Except the fact that they're vastly underpowered

I don't agree with this premise."

with his ever popular: Than prove it.

Of which I have been the recipient on multiple occasions.

I have to agree with the pre-nerfing/unnecessary restriction thing though. From a quick glance at their skillset, I would say that, ignoring adaptations, headbutt (size, offhand), bloodletting (swamp, skill sucks), steal (orc-only restriction), bloodsteep (too much damage, breaks spinebreak paralysis), last stand (I think there was some movement here, but I haven't played an orc since), grappple/offhand (why two skills?), enslave (no fleeing), track prey (craptacular, could do more to find the already dead since so many skills rely on PC corpses), desecration (having to be bloody), set snares (sucktitude, limited usability), dash (really, leavel 48?).

All of these skills could stand for some unnerfing or the removal of some restrictions and wouldn't make orcs all of a sudden uber. It really feels like they have a lot of skills that duplicated the functionality of some other skills but do so very badly, or only under really specific circumstances, or both. Last stand is probably my favorite whipping boy here. It's basically riposte/concealed/rebounding strike, but only fires when you get hit and are very hurt and can't flee. Of those 3, only rebounding strike can be parried/dodged and it works like concealed on crack within caves. There really isn't any reason that Last Stand (fairly niche as is) should be parry/dodge-able at all.

Tac

Orcs blow.

And he was understating the danger of walking out of the villiage, it's far worse than just a druid.

There have been what? 3 kick assed orcs in history?

have you ever had a pk succesful character? I mean like a minumum 50 kills for 40 deaths. If you have not managed to find success with anything or very few things what makes you feel you are a good general judge of what is or is not over/under powers?

But that question's a little fair.

Nearly all my characters have high possitive pk ratio's.

I tend to delete after losing a couple con though and 90 percent of them are unknown.

I would hazzard to guess 90 percent pk isn't uncommon for me.

I am honestly curious as all of your characters I know of pretty much speed ranked to 30, complained about being underpowered, fumed about peoples grammer, and deleted. I would like to know which characters you considered to be pk succesful.

I can't think of any off the top of my head except for a couple mages that had negative PK ratios.

I may only get about 20 pk's before I delete over 2 or 3 mobdeaths/PK's.

I also tend to play non-powergamey types.

When I play my bash orcs and giants I do very well but like I say, I burn out quick.

Thrag may have had 15 pk's.

Vallas had 12,

My many mino's had 15 a piece in most cases

My bajillion rangers almost all had positive PK rations.

And while I may not have a lot of single characters with High pk counts in aggregate I do.

What's more, I don't realy prep.

Finally, I don't neccesarily chase people down every time either. To me a victory isn't about killing each time.

>with his ever popular: Than prove it.

I've played orcs; I will again.

That being said, a lot of my characters never see hero range because hero range is about the most boring part of the game for me personally, so probably they're not the examples you want.

>There really
>isn't any reason that Last Stand (fairly niche as is) should
>be parry/dodge-able at all.

I sort of agreed with you there, which is why sometimes it IS unblockable. If over time we decide that sometimes should be more sometimes, it may get changed.

Edited to add: As per your track prey comment, I also think that some kind of ability to help find corpses would make a certain amount of sense.

To be fair, you have some sort of epic secret to perfecting skills faster than anyone I know.

But it got moved because too many people found out about it.

Yeah, I was basing it on my searches through the Premium Battlefield when I rolled that failed orc. Pretty much every person I looked at had at best a 50/50 ratio with a 2+ gank-o-meter.

I'm betting half of it is that you need to spend hours upon hours spamming up your skills with your 15 int. The other half of it is that you're uncaballed and can't hide and move at the same time.