Here's something that's really, really got me confused. An IMM went around yesterday setting PC orcs INTs at 10 for roleplaying being stupid. While I can totally understand the IMMs frustration at the consequences of the Orcfest event (i.e., half the online players suddenly being orcs), the way it was reacted to struck me as horribly wrong-headed.

And here's why.

Helpfile says orcs are woefully stupid. Orcs are set at 15 INT. Therefore, 15 INT = woefully stupid.

Furthermore, the speech styles exhibited by the orcs I witnessed were for the most part, in keeping with CF canon. The NPCs in the orc village talk like that. Grobbak talks like that. The IC quest that brought Grobbak about featured him yelling "GWARHARHAR" as an orc laugh. Furthermore, one of the most highly rewarded orc PCs ever (Pleebert) pretty much roleplayed this exact same way.

Which tells me, almost 100% of in-game canon in at LEAST the last five years supports the way these orcs are acting, at 15 INT. Not just in-game canon, but IMM-wrought in-game canon. One IMM, NPCs coded with the personality, rewards heaped... all of this is input from the staff saying, "this is a totally acceptable way to play an Orc and in fact, we like it."

So the rationale of "you're acting like an idiot, here's 10 INT" simply doesn't hold in any way, which tells me there's another, ulterior motive for the Imm's actions.

The Imm was clearly annoyed by Orcfest, or at least, did not want to see it be successful.

And my response to that is, why the hell wouldn't you? We have woefully few players as it is. CF's community is one of the strongest I've ever interacted with and is the sole reason many people stick around. Community-sponsered, player-run events are a great thing not only for the game (by getting people playing and shaking things up a bit) but for maintaining the bonds that keep us together and playing. And that's not just OOC interaction, that's IC interaction, too. I'm bored to tears when I don't interact with people in game, and if there's one thing orcs are great at, it's entertaining interactions.

Furthermore, Orcfest as happened before, and recently, and as far as I know, the staff neither reacted positively nor negatively towards it.

Discouraging orcfest says "We care more about our delicate in-game atmosphere than we do about the players actually enjoying the game." And I think that's a huge mistake on the staff's part.

To summarize. Orcs are stupid. In-game canon, Imm-written content, and Imm rewards supported orcs acting exactly as stupid as they have been at 15 INT (Pleebert won a ROLE CONTEST for god's sake. Have you READ that role?) And Orcfest (from my perspective) is an enormously positive thing for the game.

I'm appalled at this staff member's reaction to the event. The players who rolled orcs and played them like idiots were doing nothing more than what they've been told for years is good and acceptable roleplay, and had only the game and the community's best interests at heart. And we were met with scorn and abuse from the staff.

So, my question is, WHY? I'd really like an explanation. Because none of this really makes sense, and I feel like Imms are just like us; they're trying to act in the game's best interests too. And we're only acting in reaction to imm feedback. So where did things break down?

Splntrd

From what I saw, it was an unfortunate situation for both sides.

In an attempt to defuse the situation as quickly as possible, the Imm in question made a quick decision to "punish" all of the present orcs for their perceived involvement in Orcfest. I'm sure the Imm would agree that the blatant rule violations were frustrating and their primary concern (at that moment) was to put a stop to it in the most expedient manner possible.

In an attempt to enjoy the fun of Orcfest, several players made valid orcs who were caught up in the punishment. I understand their frustration as well, especially those who had a role/description/etc fully planned out for their next orc.

I'm sure if pressed, the Imm in question would apologize to the orcs who were affected that weren't "involved". At this late date, I can't see that getting sorted out, though, so everyone's just angry at everyone else.

It'll be ok. Just give it time. And for the record, I blame the entire situation on the handful of players who rolled the characters with the #### names. Not only did you screw your fellow orcs, you ruined the rp-feel of the mud for those of us who took a look around while playing. Thanks.

If you want to run around and be an asshole, go play a console game online.

This type of thing was done in the past (i.e. Orctober?) and nobody complained and no ban/deny-sticks were swung. Do it again and the Immortal's response is more or less "How could you dare think that it would be alright, you cannot permagroup!" Kind of lame. When the Immortal transferred my Orc (Skali) the Immortal was a complete ####wad. I mean I know that you deal with a lot of raging retards so sometimes its easier being curt, which unfortunately comes naturally when policing a online game where people devote way too much of their time playing. But, that sucked.

I'd do the standard "keep doing XXX and you'll drive players away" argument but that would probably be a lie; most people who play are ridiculously hooked. It just sucked, and may send me packing sometime soon. I rolled my first character since like 2005 a few weeks ago, saw the Orcfest thing and thought "hey nifty I'll join in" and kerblammo.

So what if for two days people didn't bring top notch RP. When you have people that have to go out of their way to dumb down CF just to make it more interesting for themselves the problem probably isn't the dumb people.

There's nothing wrong with CF taking random throwbacks to 1999. Look at how far we've come, and then look at HOW MANY PEOPLE WE'VE LOST ALONG THE WAY.

PO(CF)W MIA

I haven't had an active char in about six months, but I saw the orc stuff and thought it would be fun. I'm still playing my orc and am already planning out my next char.

I say that to say that there is some benefit to it. I've played on and off since 97ish and that little bit of crazy was just what I needed to jump back in.

Also, I did not get my int lowered etc and I did not give myself a bad name.

So there.

1) This was largely an OOC event planned on forums. The rules are clear on this point.

2) Orc maximum INT is 15, the same as fire giants. This is different from the "ORCORCORC!" retard school of "roleplay". You'll note that no fire giants are running around yelling "FIREGIANTFIREGIANTFIREGIANT!". This is a good thing.

3) Someone mentioned shopkeepers and other orc NPCs as examples-- I don't think you'll find any examples of "ORCORCORC!" stupidity. Instead, what you'll find is some slightly clipped, simple language and a brute mentality.

4) As for the people rolling intentionally stupid names, and there were more than a few: Expect the hammer to come down hard.

5) In general, adventurers are intended to represent exceptional individuals of a race-- it's why humans have a maximum INT of at least 20, which the code marks as 'Genius'. This doesn't imply that every human in Thera is a genius-- but rather that a cross-section of human adventurers have that potential.

Want to play a drooling idiot? The Academy allows Flaws that can help.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Orcorcorc is dumb. Is it totally inappropriate? I don't think so. The chanting of a certain group, in an attempt to raise morale, is kinda common(See football games where the fans yell the team's name over and over). I don't think it's something everyone should do, nor do I think it's worthwhile for a warcry - But I don't think it should be taboo for an Orc to scream his 'team's' name.

One thing about fire giants I would like to add, which is entirely unrelated to the Orc'age, is that I don't think many people who ROLL fire giants ACT like fire giants. They're supposed to be easily tricked, not super smart, blunt, terrible confidants, etc. For me, it's rare to see someone actually pull that off - and it instead feels like someone is just playing the exact same way they would a Dark Elf save a small change in speech pattern. EAT THAT, GIANT PLAYERS!

With that out of the way, back to Orcdome!


"3) Someone mentioned shopkeepers and other orc NPCs as examples-- I don't think you'll find any examples of "ORCORCORC!" stupidity. Instead, what you'll find is some slightly clipped, simple language and a brute mentality."

I'm totally with this. I didn't think Splntrd meant that NPCs did the Orc #### - I think he was just trying to show that Orcs ARE stupid, talk more stupidly than Fire giants, and have a tendency to come across like dumbasses(which is why a number of Orcs lost intelligence).

I understand that flaws are a helpful way to add to RP. I also know that tons of people don't take flaws, yet act in certain ways that would pertain to a given flaw, and the flaws aren't forced upon them. That's different, I think, than what happened with the orcs. I'd prefer some minor consistency. If a human has in their role, or maybe they seem to be in how they play, really intelligent - You should feel fine tossing their int to 25(BUT BATMAN 25 IS A WAY BETTER GAIN THAN 15 TO 10 IS A LOSS) just as willingly as you were to set the Orc's intelligence to 10. At one point I had an Orc that I was going to go Mundugunu with. I was playing it more intelligently than I did other orcs - Using better language, playing a bit smarter in general, etc. I was told that it wasn't valid Orc roleplay, and that I should roll another race if I wanted to be so 'smart'. :-<. Why wasn't my intelligence boosted to match my roleplay? No clue.[br/>
I'm not saying this should be the policy, of course, but I am saying that I think the intelligence dropping wasn't well thought out. Why not, instead, TALK to the orcs first - find out how unresponsive they are. If they are intent on being a total dumbass - punish away. If their roleplay is slightly stupider than a given orc, WHY DROP THEIR INTELLIGENCE DOWN TO TEN, AS "This doesn't imply that every human in Thera is a genius-- but rather that a cross-section of human adventurers have that potential" ALSO APPLIES TO ORC INTELLIGENCE. They may all have 15 int, but some might be a tad stupider than others. Also, there is that small chance that their RP plays into a role(or potential role, as not everyone submits them at 'birth') where they were raised with certain tendencies.

Maybe I'm being irrational, it's very possible, and if you think so - totally disregard this entire post. But on the off chance that I'm saying something sane, coherent, and valid - Perdy please be nicer to orcs?


<3

bertmin


PS:
"
4) As for the people rolling intentionally stupid names, and there were more than a few: Expect the hammer to come down hard."

That's entertaining but ####ing stupid. Deny away.

Maybe I'm being irrational, it's very possible, and if you think so - totally disregard this entire post.

Ayup.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

But not really, of course.

This just reaffirms how badass you are to me.

Some well reasoned arguments explaining why the IMM response was all over the top and actually inconsistent with past behaviour, and you try and fob him off with this rubbish? Way to represent.

Don't make me throw down fifteen paragraphs about why these types of posts are counterproductive. I know it's the hot and contested topic du jour, but dogpiling ain't gonna help. I'm trying to participate constructively elsewhere in the thread, but my motivation to do so is really bash-spammed by this and the other similar responses.

Seriously, now that I have a better view of the situation, I've pretty much let it go.

I appreciate your constructive participation and your genuine attempts to contribute positively, but I don't really think you should be pointing fingers at a player for being unproductive here. It's pretty clear that Valg's the one who set the tone and is refusing to contribute constructively. He's pretty deserving of criticism for taking the easy way out on this one.

Not that Batman didn't offer the easy way out to him, but it sure is a helluva lot easier to say someone's being irrational (when they're not) than it is to actually construct a productive argument. You can't ask us to be respectful when we're not being respected.


Maybe I'm being irrational, it's very possible, and if you think so - totally disregard this entire post.

Ayup.

Splntrd

You're on the outside looking in. You are easily making judgement calls on very little information that no one from Team Immortal has to provide.

Look at the Immortal to player ratio and tell me that there isn't the slightest possibility of burnout when dealing with players who legitimately disrespect the efforts put forth by the Immortal staff.

The Immortals are very sensitive to the fact that there are not as many players today as there were 3 years ago. We have a team of volunteer Marketing members who contribute hours a week trying to better this gaming experience. However, we're constantly getting the "You should make these exceptions due to the dwindling playerbase." That's a rediculous argument and I'll tell you why:

Several evenings ago both Valg and I dealt with a single player, for literally 3 hours, regarding a blatant cheating incident. We made every effort to justify the punishment of said cheating and to retain a player. 3 hours after a cohesive attempt from the two of us, the player continued to make threats that they are done for good. I disregarded player prayers, my responsibilities as a father and a husband in an attempt to retain a single player. It was a collective 6 hours worth of time and effort from two members of your Immortal staff. Can you seriously sit here and point fingers at one of our Imps in an attempt to say they are not contributing or being respectful. Shame on you.

EVERY immortal on staff contributes in a positive manner. While we may not come across with the Customer Service experience that you expect, we are both efficient and considerate of our playerbase. Unfortunately, I'm not going to drop 3 hours of my life to coddle players that are illiterate to our rules. I think the fact that you're getting *any* information on this matter is much more than you should ever expect.

That's a whole hell of a lot more time than I would ever devote to keeping some retarded player. I mean this back and forth thread has gotten out of control but I still think its a damn shame the Immortals are disallowing Orcfest in any form, even if its a well-RP'd Orcfest, over what appeared to be burn-out on the part of staff member(s).

> I still think its a
>damn shame the Immortals are disallowing Orcfest in any form,
>even if its a well-RP'd Orcfest, over what appeared to be
>burn-out on the part of staff member(s).

At least two IMM's in this thread stated they like orcfest as long as it is with real non-throw away characters and as long as comes about by following the rules, IE is driven through in game actions not DIOs.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=32977&mesg_id=33038&page=

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=32977&mesg_id=33011&page=

My understanding is Valg is an IMP, they are not, his word stays. He sure hasn't condoned that, as far as I've seen.

Plus, having to make a shaman or think up some clever idea to pretend-RP everybody rolling up Orcs is odd. I mean hell I'd do it just for ####s and giggles but I think the difference between the two are minor. I mean, if someone posted in Dio's "OK ORCFEST IS ON BUT DON'T BE RETARDED, DON'T MAKE ####TY NAMES AND DON'T ACT LIKE A ####ING CLOWN" would that be okay?

So you think that because you put a lot of work in, it's okay to be blatantly disrespectful in a discussion that has, until Valg replied to Batman, been completely civil and constructive?

You're right. He didn't have to respond at all. And I would have preferred that over the approach he took, which was to be a ####. He took the first swing here, and when players responded in kind, I simply don't blame them. It's human nature; they were provoked. And then rebuked for reacting in the most natural way possible. I'm simply assigning blame where blame is due. And just because he has an enormously positive influence in EVERY OTHER area of the game doesn't mean he for some reason deserves immunity from it in this one instance. And that's really all I'm referring to: this one instance. Not the macrocosm.

I generally have a lot of respect and love for what Valg does for the game; that doesn't mean he wasn't out of line in this case, and that doesn't mean we should just be okay with taking #### from him whenever he decides to be a pain in the ass.

He may be a volunteer, but it's not like we have to worship the guy, and it's not like he doesn't have faults.

Splntrd

You don't need to be an insider to think the "Ayup" comment is rude. All of us go about our lives working with, talking with, arguing with and dealing with other people and we know what the difference between "Customer Service" and just "Acting like an internet tough guy".

You don't get to throw common courtesy out the window and then come back with talking about marketing efforts. If I was you I wouldn't have spent 3 hours trying to discuss a cheating incident with the guy and it doesn't mean the next day you get to say whatever you want to everyone else who has nothing to do with that guy being a prick.

I love that subject, by the way. Used to always crack me up when Jhyrb/Dall/Parv would say it.

My only involvement has been reading this thread, so my comments refer to that alone. And probably I should just back away and keep my face hole shut.

With that preface in place, I'll say that I like the idea of Orcfest. Orcs are like the red-headed stepchildren of CF. They have a unique place in the world, which brings with it significant benefits and drawbacks. To me, it's kind of neat to see their numbers swell from time to time and wreak general havoc upon Thera. It's different to me than, say, "everyone roll Imperials now", because of the special nature of orcs. I like the idea of Orcfest....with legitimate/real orc characters.

That said, Orcfest tends to redefine Chaotic Stupid. There's a tendency to use Orcfest orcs as throw-away characters - retarded, non-roleplaying, PK-only, Entropy-reject Chaotic Stupid frag machines. If something like Orcfest is going to be taken seriously, it needs to not be abused.

So if the Imps know it's coming, and the Imps expect to see idiocy, and idiocy tends to ruin the immersion for other players.... doesn't it stand to reason that the Imps would crack down fast and hard on the immediate and unmistakable rise in orc-related idiocy?

I mean, it sucks that the broad swath might have nailed some legit orc characters, but the blame should be focused on the retard orcs who brought all the attention to themselves, rather than the Imps who responded.

Orcfest can be a cool thing, but it's up to the players to be mature about it and make it work. And maybe 80% of Orcfesteers were mature, but it sounds like the last 20% ruined it for you guys.

Anyway...my outside-looking-in rambling thoughts....

And would love to add one thing. Maybe, if some imms saw an orcfest coming, it might be a good time to plan some Orc RP stuff. Like taking over Tremblefist and sort of directing the orcfest. That way, those non-rp characters might stick out a bit more and get the banhammer that much faster, but it would make it even more fun for those people who were taking it as seriously as it should be.

There is an opportunity for both sides to get some enjoyment out of a player started event like this, and likewise, the same opportunity for both sides to get pissed off. Being proactive is a good way to direct it into enjoyment. Being reactive is more likely to result in annoyed imms and angry players.

Tac

Plus ur cute <3


This is a good post(Yours, I mean).


I pretty much agree with it, save the "doesn't it stand to reason that the Imps would crack down fast and hard on the immediate and unmistakable rise in orc-related idiocy?". I'll agree with that once the same occurs to Russian Imperial ganksquads whose RP is "TAKE THE OATH"(No other RP required, right? Just recycle that phrase and you win!), which redefines the stupidity of orderly/evil - and is just as bad as orcorcorcorcorc.

I can't comment much on the stupid ####ing names some Orcs rolled up with, as I seem to have missed out on that - but I did see a number of valid orcs roaming around, doing VALID Orc RP(Not orcorcorc) and ranking.


I love Orcfest.

Orcs suck so much that Orcfest, to me, is the only thing that really makes them playable.

I'm just echoing the others to say this post is pretty spot on. However, the cracking down fast and hard part means take 20% of the players and #### it up for the other 80%. There could have been a lot of ways where it could have been handled better.

As I said in my other post, policing an online game has got to be annoying cause people are annoying when its anonymous and the internet is anonymous. But, its not that hard to do it a better way. A forum post saying "Orcfest is alright from time to time but don't roleplay clowns with axes." A global echo here and there could have done it. Tremblefist attacking and killing an Orc for being retarded could have done it. An in game note could have done it. The intelligence dropping (with maybe some forewarning, and post-warning to other players) could have done it. A lot of things could have done. Either way, the message that I got was never "Oh we would have been ok with it had you not acted dumb" even though Valguarnera's response more or less goes "permagrouping is bad but oh also you were acting stupid!" as sort of a fallback.

The Imm or Imms basically took a bunch of people who were actually excited to play this game and ####ed it for us. Orcs are the redheaded stepchild, designed to be "a horde" and it would be neat if they actually were a horde from time to time. Other players get to be in cabals filled with 3-4 other people (at hero) to help them. Orcs are lonely. There is no horde, ever. When do you ever have even two hero orcs?

Bottom line is the message was "you guys are permagrouping you should know better" and "oh I'm astonished you didn't know you were in clear violation of our rules!" This was a big let down.

>on. However, the cracking down fast and hard part means take
>20% of the players and #### it up for the other 80%. There
>could have been a lot of ways where it could have been handled
>better.
>
>The Imm or Imms basically took a bunch of people who were
>actually excited to play this game and ####ed it for us.

Again, I wasn't there. But I can tell you that the perspective is different from up here in Immland. If there's a stream of stupid names coming up and getting denied, folks spamming newbie and orc channels, prays coming across complaining about spam at market square and more prays about stupid names, that's a sudden influx of stupid crap to deal with. Toss a few "pull this guy aside"s in the mix, and the knowledge that this was actually organized, planned, and executed on purpose...and you might start to see why an Imm would be short, to the point, and not receptive to arguments.

Without exception, we do not take pleasure in screwing your fun stick. Frankly, if you're having fun, we're having fun. To make sure you have fun, we have to police the smacktards that (intentionally or not) tend to ruin things for folks. If the smacktard quotient breaks some magic threshold, then something has to be done immediately to interrupt the cycle. And I think that's what happened here. Furthermore, there may not be time to take control of the situation in a neat, global echo, roleplay kind of way.

A non-orc example of this might be when newbie rolling is suspended for some amount of time due to spam. That's not fun for the Imms and it's not fun for the playerbase, but it has to be done because the alternative is less fun for everyone.

I do take exception to your assertion that the Imm ####ed it for you. Maybe I'm just knee-jerk defending my own here, but our goal, our job, our entire reason for logging in is to make CF an enjoyable place for everyone. To me, this just sounds like an example of one of those times where some minority of players draws down necessary consequences and no one wins.

Too much coffee + too little sleep = rambling again. Just remember, it's not "us vs. you". This is our game, players and imms alike. When the #### hits the fan, it gets on everyone.

Weird way to end a post.

>1) This was largely an OOC event planned on forums. The
>rules are clear on this point.

Maybe with an extremely liberal reading of them. Just because a bunch of people rolled the same character combo simultaneously doesn't mean they're perma'ing. They may have no other OOC contact other than having read the same thread on the forum as some other guy. To call that perma'ing stretches the definition to the breaking point.

>2) Orc maximum INT is 15, the same as fire giants. This is
>different from the "ORCORCORC!" retard school of "roleplay".
>You'll note that no fire giants are running around yelling
>"FIREGIANTFIREGIANTFIREGIANT!". This is a good thing.

You're totally right. But your definition of the "ORCORCORC! retard school of roleplay" seems to be extremely broad, considering what (you, I assume it was you) were punishing people for. Not only that, but you seemed to be generalizing and making a lot of assumptions without a lot of knowledge or observation.

My character, for example, was punished I assume for being lumped into this "school of roleplay" because he had a speech impediment. Had you waited to read the role I was going to enter (I wasn't even level 10 yet), or noted my character creation date, or been listening to the clan channel in the days before orcfest, I think you would have come to a different conclusion.

But you didn't. You instead relied on assumptions based on what, a few lines of dialogue over the clan channel?

>3) Someone mentioned shopkeepers and other orc NPCs as
>examples-- I don't think you'll find any examples of
>"ORCORCORC!" stupidity. Instead, what you'll find is some
>slightly clipped, simple language and a brute mentality.

No one ever said ORCORCORC was acceptable. And I can really only think of one Orc that ever even said that while I was online. But you didn't just punish him, you punished a whole lot of orcs that pretty much all fit the description here that you've defined as "okay": "Slightly clipped, simple language with a brute mentality".

>4) As for the people rolling intentionally stupid names, and
>there were more than a few: Expect the hammer to come down
>hard.

No one cares that you denied some stupid names. We're all glad you did. That's not even an issue here.

>5) In general, adventurers are intended to represent
>exceptional individuals of a race-- it's why humans have a
>maximum INT of at least 20, which the code marks as 'Genius'.
>This doesn't imply that every human in Thera is a genius-- but
>rather that a cross-section of human adventurers have that
>potential.

Key word here is potential. My orc might be potentially more smart than most other orcs, but that doesn't mean he is. And he might be exceptional in other ways besides being smart.

Orcs have a max INT of 15. Helpfiles say orcs are "woefully stupid". Therefore 15 = "woefully stupid". Even an exceptional specimen of an orc is going to be pretty damn stupid.

>Want to play a drooling idiot? The Academy allows Flaws that
>can help.

Ignoring the fact that it's pretty much established that 15 INT = a drooling idiot: Flaws are optional. I'm pretty sure that was stated pretty clearly when they first came out, and that's why they're hidden in the academy and not something you can pick at character creation. I'm not required to take a flaw if I want to roleplay a drooling idiot; I take a flaw if I want to play a drooling idiot and want to be rewarded for my sacrifice in some small way.

So if you feel like all those orcs that had their INTs set to 10 from 15 should have taken flaws, I resent that you've taken it upon yourself to enforce something on them that's supposed to be optional.

I understand placing flaws as punishment for bad behavior, but pretty much no one did anything wrong, and I'll repeat my original point (since you've ignored it) that no one has done anything that hasn't been supported by Immortals in the past (through NPCs, through Immteraction, through rewards like those that were heaped on Pleebert). So you're blaming and punishing players for playing orcs according to established canon, which I think is dead wrong on your part.

If you think the established canon is WRONG and producing wrong results, rewrite it. The players aren't doing anything wrong by following it.

Splntrd

>So if you feel like all those orcs that had their INTs set to
>10 from 15 should have taken flaws

Just for the record, I think 'all' in this case equals two.

Well, you have better intel on that than I have. I was under the impression it was more like three to five.

If it was really only two, then I know which one was the other one besides me, and I agree he deserved it. I still don't think mine was deserved, but I'm not going to continue playing the victim card, since my concern here is more for the community than for myself and I can see how (the Imm, I assume Valg) could have misinterpreted my responses on the clan channel at the time.

I still think it's an erroneous judgment based on a lack of observation, but it's an error that's more much more understandable if it's just one case and not four.

Furthermore, I believe much of my argument still stands (as far as the Imms being the ones setting the standards that Valg apparently finds so objectionable in the form of ingame canon and rewards, and that the players are only living up to them), but I'm less inclined to care now that I see that I'm apparently the only one that was wronged in any way.

Splntrd

Yeah, I missed pretty much this whole rodeo (and can't fairly speak to whether you did or didn't deserve it), but we do log things like setting someone's int to 10.

a

Splntrd

Ignoring the fact that it's pretty much established that 15 INT = a drooling idiot

Repeating this assertion doesn't somehow make it so.

You keep stating this, even after agreeing that fire giants (who can become both spellcasters and communers) have the same INT. You're also continuing to ignore the examples of NPCs, etc. We have two races with maximum INT of 16 that aren't assumed to be remotely in the "ORCORCORC!" level of roleplay retardation.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The 10 INT thing I agree with. I didn't really see anyone doing that except one guy that we all mostly ignored.

I also didn't see anyone coordinating OOC other than the "roll up an orc for orcfest" post. No one knew who I was playing for instance (I rolled up weeks beforehand anyway). And I didn't know who anyone else was playing.

Calling it a permagroup is a huge exaggeration and denying them all is just a childish overreaction. Its not like its the first orc fest, it's been done at least 3-4 times before.

Calling it a permagroup is a huge exaggeration and denying them all is just a childish overreaction.

Characters I denied and/or banned:
Kauhv
Orcorcorcorc
Batvers
Khauv
Krilork
Gribas (whose only action as a new level one was to go OOC on the clan channel about Krilork being denied)

This thread is full of armchair critics who have no idea what was going on except for a couple carefully selected logs. I mean, it's easy to call things a "childish overreaction" if you exaggerate and/or invent all the actions you'd like to attribute to the other party.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

For what its worth, I'm basing my criticism on what you're saying explicitly (and what the imm in the logs said specifically) that its based on the fact that they are "permagrouping based on a forum post".

You're not going to find anyone, at all, complaining about banning Orcorcorcorc - but you said yourself your issue is that if someone makes a post saying "Hey, lets do an orc fest this weekend" and people mass roll orcs that is effectively "permagrouping".

Coming from a generation of CF'ers that define a permagroup as mass range domination while coordinating over IRC or ICQ/AIM yeah, it comes across as a huge exaggeration - but those are your words not mine.

>1) This was largely an OOC event planned on forums. The
>rules are clear on this point.

I disagree. The rules are a little fuzzy on this. I don't think those that rolled up orcs were intending to break the rules.

Nonetheless, whatever motivation it was that drove players to roll up orcs and play, it would be great if some effort was put into trying to cultivate and encourage that desire instead of overreacting with an iron fist. At the very least, someone should show some PR tact and give Splntrd, and whoever else deserves one, an apology.

>2) Orc maximum INT is 15, the same as fire giants. This is
>different from the "ORCORCORC!" retard school of "roleplay".
>You'll note that no fire giants are running around yelling
>"FIREGIANTFIREGIANTFIREGIANT!". This is a good thing.

Completely disagree:

Knacnar yells "BLOODSTOMP! BLOODSTOMP!"

Knacnar's roleplaying is a good thing.

I know some people don't like an Orc yelling "ORCORCORC!" but I completely disagree that it is necessarily bad roleplaying for an Orc and deserving of Immortal punishment. Is it the lack of spaces? If they yelled "ORC! ORC! ORC!" would that be better? As others have pointed out, repetitive chanting is very popular to inspire people. Go to any competitive sport, or political rally, or any place a large group of people get together basically, and you'll often find repetitive chanting of some sort. It seems perfectly in tune with the Orc's group mentality. What exactly is your problem with it?



Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

Which, is kinda the reason I love him.

We need to have thicker skin and get over #### more often.

Plus I love being able to remember when he is wrong and save those moments for a rainy, lich-beating day when I become LVL60 and turn CF into HelloKittyMUD.

Completely disagree: Knacnar yells "BLOODSTOMP! BLOODSTOMP!" Knacnar's roleplaying is a good thing.

And yet, in aggregate, he's a lot more than that. He's a character, not a cartoon.

Several of the people playing orcs this weekend had no intention of doing anything except yelling as many moronic things as they could think of. As one of the other IMPs commented: "Mmm...orcfest...time to be a douche."

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Completely disagree: Knacnar yells "BLOODSTOMP!
>BLOODSTOMP!" Knacnar's roleplaying is a good thing.
>
>And yet, in aggregate, he's a lot more than that. He's a
>character, not a cartoon.
>
>Several of the people playing orcs this weekend had no
>intention of doing anything except yelling as many moronic
>things as they could think of. As one of the other IMPs
>commented: "Mmm...orcfest...time to be a douche."
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Ok. But what about Splntrd's Orc, in aggregate?

"My character, for example, was punished I assume for being lumped into this "school of roleplay" because he had a speech impediment. Had you waited to read the role I was going to enter (I wasn't even level 10 yet), or noted my character creation date, or been listening to the clan channel in the days before orcfest, I think you would have come to a different conclusion.

But you didn't. You instead relied on assumptions based on what, a few lines of dialogue over the clan channel?"

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

>But what about Splntrd's Orc, in aggregate?
>
>"My character, for example, was punished I assume for being
>lumped into this "school of roleplay" because he had a speech
>impediment. Had you waited to read the role I was going to
>enter (I wasn't even level 10 yet), or noted my character
>creation date, or been listening to the clan channel in the
>days before orcfest, I think you would have come to a
>different conclusion.
>
>But you didn't. You instead relied on assumptions based on
>what, a few lines of dialogue over the clan channel?"
>
>Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

Honestly what was different about his orc then the others? I know he intended to have a serious character but how is an IMM who is observing the situation going to be able to see that when the character essentially looks like all the other offending orcs?

Also, is this even something worth bitching about? He can still use the role, he didn't even enter it! He wasn't even level 10, so what he's out 15 minutes?

Seriously people need to grow the f up.

sorry for any bad spelling/grammer sent this from my phone.

For the last several days people have been rolling up newbies and trolling about orcfest on newbie channel. They've also rolled up a succession of poorly named orcs such as "Festork" and "Deavryn", mostly from proxies that make it difficult for us to really control and punish. Someone new rolls up an orc and starts ranting on clan channel at very low level a lot of really dumb stuff all in cap letters. The name seems ok, the IP has some active characters from it, we don't really want to just flat out deny but at the same time we need to try and control this situation since it's ruining the experience for a lot of people just trying to play the game. So we issue a warning and a small punishment in the form of lowered int, which is fitting considering the raving this guy is doing. Does this seem unreasonable? To us, it doesn't. Lots of people will disagree with this but from an admin point of view, I hope you can see where we're coming from.

It's a good name isn't it? There's only so many letters to build names off of.

Are you just trolling now?

It's a good name isn't it? There's only so many letters to build names off of.

nt

Am I the only one that thinks some of the people posting here completely missed the point Valg tried to make here:
"5) In general, adventurers are intended to represent exceptional individuals of a race-- it's why humans have a maximum INT of at least 20, which the code marks as 'Genius'. This doesn't imply that every human in Thera is a genius-- but rather that a cross-section of human adventurers have that potential."

I dont interpret that as chars with 20 int have the potential to be geniuses. They actually are. Its just that the race can have that high int, meaning individuals of that race have the potential to be that smart.
Orcs have a max int of 15, which is average. They have the potential to be of average intelligence but that also means that all orcs who roll a 15 for int when creating are just that, of average intelligence. Not dumber just because you feel you should roleplay dumber. If you want to be, roll lower int and I bet you nobody would have anything against you drooling up a river trying to figure out which piece of clothing goes on your feet.

But maybe I am way off here. Only Valg knows what he really meant.

Let me preface this with the fact that I was not logged on for this, haven't heard anything about it (other than what I've read here), and I'm the low man on the totem pole.

All that being said, my main concern with this event is the way it came about - none of it was IC; none of it was RP. You want to convince a bunch of people to roll Orcs? Cool, I'm all for it. How about rolling a Grobbak shaman (you decide which race fits best), preach how great/strong/funny/volatile/chaotic/etc Orcs are, how sad you are you aren't one, and get someone to write a 'note to all' telling everyone how you are going to be digging for Orcs on a certain date, time, etc. In my eyes, if you want to plan an event, do it IC and RP it out. If you did something like that, I, as an immortal, would be stoked. If you go and post it on a forum somewhere, it's more than likely going to be viewed as cheat-ish (not in the cool, StrongBad way). Events in the Inn of the Eternal Star are handled this way, the rites are handled this way, player run events are handled this way, IMM run events are handled this way - all through an IC note. Orcfest was not handled this way.

I am all for people taking the bull by the horns and planning events. Hell, ask me IC and I'll probably help out/attend/give you ideas/impale you. Seriously people, we want you to have a good time and we want CF to succeed.

As far as the setting of INT to 10 stuff, I wasn't there and can't comment.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

I feel like a lot of people are unhappy about this just because of the attitude observed of the Imm in question.

I don't know if you saw the logs, but, I just personally dislike, maybe not the way it was handled, but rather the 'tone', if you will of the Immortal doing it. It's their game, they're basically in the right to treat players like that verbally, I just think it seemed completely unnecessary and even a little mean-spirited. I don't think that was helpful to anyone, it just stirred up all kinds of crap.

No question or complaint from me over the assertion that the entire ordeal had to be stopped, I agree on that. I would do the same as an Imm. I just really think EVERYONE, on the player and Imm side, could benefit from learning to deal with it a little more maturely.

Constructive criticism, if you will.

>Helpfile says orcs are woefully stupid. Orcs are set at 15
>INT. Therefore, 15 INT = woefully stupid.
>

I've never considered the intelligence of the "stupid" races to indicate that they behave like a bunch of morons or idiots. In the case of orcs, I see their intelligence as more of an indication that of their brutish monstrous nature that relies more on instinct and rage then logic and forethought. This does not mean they run around and say ORC ORC ORC ORC or some other inane drivel and act childlike.

Doesn't mean they don't either. I can see dumb asses having fun yelling something ridiculous like that in between looting, burning and pillaging.

No it shouldn't be the staple of every Orc, but I don't think it should be an instant ban either.

Since we aren't talking standard iq tests, intelligence in Thera basically comes down to formulating complex thought and problem solving.

So, an elf faced with the challenge of opening a chest guarding a delicate treasure would be to come up with some way to safely open the chest and take the treasure.

An orc would simply pick up a rock and smash the thing, without even pausing to think they might break what's inside.

In less, of course, they're a Mudugunu. I sorta use the adaptations to decide how 'smart' my orcs are.

nt

I don't think that's our fault. I don't feel like we did anything wrong, but some Imm apparently thinks so. That's why I started this post; there's been a miscommunication somewhere that's resulted in hurt feelings and maimed characters and a really annoyed staff member.

So I stated my position for clarity, because I wanted to open a dialogue with the staff and hopefully come to some sort of mutual understanding, so that it doesn't just come down to holding a grudge.

I considered just e-mailing, but this really is an issue that effects the broader community.

Splntrd

I don't mean to down on the Imm staff, but as far as I recall reading from the various logs, there is "No room for discussion" and the Imm in question was "Done talking about it". Do I agree with that attitude/behavior? No way.

If they do respond, and actually do so in a reasonable/logical way rather than be dismissive, I'll be happy, proven wrong, and impressed.

But I am hopeful. The community is small enough already; I'd rather we talked about it and moved on than just sit and be grumpy at each other in this tiny little playground we have to share.

Splntrd

Imm setting ints down is not the imm that someone's trying to argue down in that one log.

If someone else on staff made a call on something and they're not handy, I'm not likely to overturn their decision, nor am I very interested in arguing about it with someone. Probably, that's all/most of us.

Beyond pointing that out, I'm neither involved nor especially well informed on any of this and I'm not going to comment.

Feel free to ask. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has a few of the logs saved as far as immortal interactions go.

I'm not necessarily interested in arguing about it - I'd like more to UNDERSTAND why the Imm(s) in question decided what they did, and why they decided to act in a seemingly aggressive way.


Like I said, some up-front'ness would be appreciated, and I'll sincerely be impressed if this thread doesn't get deleted/dismissed as stupid.


Also, for note: I found it personally funny that one of the Imms thought I was one of the low level dumbass Orcs. I don't know why it was so funny to me. Maybe it's just because I was thought to be one of the idiotic ones?(Nah, because I really am an idiot). I think it just made me lol because of the attitude portrayed by them. "HEY BATMAN #### OFF". It's just funny. People already tell me that IRL.

I'm certain you were one of them.

Because I wasn't.


Edit: I am so gunna rub it in your face.

Now, we don't have anyone to multi-kill.

That's a cop out.

In any other situation a normal person would respond "I wasn't involved with that, I'd have to understand more about it." That's obviously a whole lot less condescending than "This discussion is over."

The latter is going to start a pissing match 9/10 times, the former will avoid one 9/10 times.

1. Tremblefist and the shopkeepers all speak in "non-orc."
2. The Imms, as far as I know, have never approved the ORC ORC ORC chant. People have in the past have had lowered warcries for it.
3. I rolled an orc just to see how the RP was since everyone was complaining. And from hours of orc-playing (though probably not half as long as debriguy), the RP and chats WERE more stupid than usual.

Yeah ORCORCORC! Is teh gehy.

Though that orc of his smashed the #### out of people due to him popping out of silent ready to kill.

1) The shopkeepers speak with an orc accent, as far as I can tell. I would also think the more mercantile orcs would actually speak better than most orcs, since being able to communicate well is part of being a merchant.

Some brief examples of the way shopkeeps currently talk:

civilized <100%hp 100%m 97%mv 2755tnl (33.77%)> 4 PM buy rat
Grazog says 'Yar. Only an orc kin handle dis kin o creature. Beat im hard an make him work.'

A filthy orc trader says 'Yar. Me think you gonna like dat, eh?'
A filthy orc trader says 'Yar, me give you cut in price ifn you buyin more den one, eh?'
You buy a side of roasted ham.

2) I don't really like the ORC ORC ORC thing either, but I've only seen it once since I rolled an orc, and it wasn't during orcfest.

3) Maybe. This is my first orc but it seemed like everybody had a SLIGHTLY different interpretation of "orc stupid" so I've for the most part had a good time.

Splntrd

1. I only remembered the first part where you type "list"

A filthy orc trader tells you 'See anything you like? A lucky thing you came along.'

Smithy tells you 'Nothing but the finest for my customers!'

You say 'Which items?'
Tremblefist says 'A large chest formed of a dragon skull is empty.'

THe Imms should probably standardize this so that they speak in an orc fashion.

Orc orc orc is dumbo.

Attachment #1, ( file)

There were a handful of griefers rolling up orcs.

One of these was Krilcov, the others seemed to be part of the Russian Consortium (The one that doesn't perma ).

Of the 10 or so a few seem to be legit Orc players. Grepa, Thrak, Medash, Grak, Heckle, the chief and a couple others.

Of those I just mentioned there and a couple others there seems to be a real orc dynamic going.

Of the ones that logged on and got made brain dead, they deserved it. I personally full sac orcs that constantly say ORCORCORCORCORC!!! So in that aspect the imm was cooler than what I would have done if I were able.

It's one thing to act ignorant, it's something completely different to be an adult orc shouting what amounts to your first baby words over and over again.

Furthermore, the dips that werw ROTD'ed knew each other, they tried to play it off, but they screw up in their own verbage when speaking to the Imm, suggesting IRC or some alternate form of communication.

On top of that their condescending attitude was enough for me to side with the Imm.

In closing, I think the Imm headed off a disaster in the making and as someone who bitches about ####y names I'm wowed and happy that this Imm stepped up and took care of business.

The banning was fine, even if they had a terrible attitude exceeding what was needed to deliver a message and enforce the rules, almost to the point that it had the opposite effect and just made them look ridiculous instead of a figure to be respected. The series of players bitching about it are a good indicator that I'm right about this one(disregarding the ones that normally complain about everything), I know it was bound to happen a little, but not like this. I think the banning situation could have been handled with a little more grace.

But I think it would have been forgotten quickly with little to no continual fuss if the intelligence dropping hadn't happened. I think this is where it was going a little overboard. Either they were cheating or they weren't. Dropping the stats of a couple Orcs who were rolled long before this seemed a bit too much in my opinion.

When I was looking at that log I saw that someone is commenting on an orc saying something stupid. And shortly there after the Orc had an echo.

Was that where he lost his int? I didn't notice and can't access it.

But it seems t me there was a history.

What's more, the players you sight as being a good indicator, are in my opnion, among the worst representatives of our game.

They are hostile and argumentative at best and not just because of a concern for the game. Some of them have a deep inner need to attack people.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over them feeling angst when their opnions ceased to matter to me years ago.

As for the players I cite to be an example, I didn't know Splntrd was one of our more argumentative players, he always seemed to decent to me.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. There were DEFINITELY people among those banned/punished who needed to be punished, example being whoever it was that said Krilorc and something about Batman and Stevers(trust me, it wasn't me, I hate all of them).

But personally I would have just pulled them over, tell them why plainly, politely, or say nothing at all and deny them. Something needed to be done, yes, just not the way it went down. Something about the whole response was a little overly emotional and hateful.

And it's been discussed before, you can't give bad news in a good way. Especially over the internet.

As for banning/denying.. It's like firing. It sucks, so get it over with.

And the Imm never had a chance to warn them or anything did they? The players just started in on them.


Fear not, they are probably happily playing flyto/murder gnomes as we speak.

I've not been playing for months for well-documented reasons IRL and timesink-related reasons nobody but the people on my AIM list gives a flying #### about.

So if you've been waiting for me to leave you alone so you can spout your 'my way or the high way' opinionated B.S. in peace (in contrast to my highly vitriolic but usually well-reasoned opinions even if proven incorrect at times), you've had that wish granted for months until you start using the debating skills of a fourth-grader again, at which point someone who still thinks you, or Graatch for that matter, has a shred of intelligence left (specifically related how you both *think* the people around you MUST play the game) can point it out without flaming you like I do.

You won't see me in the game again until I feel like putting up with all the same #### you do, such as the RNG crap, the class balances I disagree with, and the necessary but blown-far-out-of-proportion good-align bias to where those watching the good aligns tend to forget the neutral and evil aligns are human too in both game balance and rewards. You can put up with all that mind-numbing crap without having to glance over your shoulder in terror of whether I *might* call you a name before the post gets deleted.

Sheesh, you act like I'm frigging Shadowmaster, Triphitndip, Arolin/Aether back in the day, or Krilcov or something. Newbies have always been safe from my grumpiness, it's the people who should damn well know better but don't that got reamed, Imm or not. Since I haven't been playing a while, my lack of knowledge of a situation will diminish my desire to comment on anything even you have to say, Pro.

That's all I'll say on the subject, I'm not hijacking the thread over it.

So if you've been waiting for me to leave you alone so you can spout your 'my way or the high way' opinionated B.S. in peace (in contrast to my highly vitriolic but usually well-reasoned opinions even if proven incorrect at times),

For what it's worth, and I don't think I'll get accused of being a Prothero fanboy, he brings a lot of odd ideas that he's strongly attached to. I think most of them are bad, but it's not like he can go code them up, so I'm not worried.

You tend to just show up and start screaming like a crazy person. All the anger tends to ruin whatever it is that you intended to talk about.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

"Some of them have a deep inner need to attack people."

Coming from a guy that two posts above cite the "Russian Consortium" I found this funny. I guess the distinction is you're paranoid not hostile?

Considering you felt Hyeckle was a legit orc, how would you feel knowing he also had his INT set to 10?

I played Hyeckle and had every intention of playing a serious orc, and was trying to roleplay, as you put it, legitimately. I even rolled him before orcfest was announced. But that didn't keep me from getting lumped in with "the dips". That's when I requested an ROTD session and talked to an IMM.

See, the thing is, MOST of the orcs that were rolled seemed to legitimate. We were all playing to the standards that have been supported in numerous ways by the Imm staff for years. And we ALL got punished perhaps because of a few griefers, and told the reason we were punished was because we were "lowering the bar" for stupidity(exact quote from my ROTD session). Stupidity that is absolutely canon and supported in multiple ways in game and by IMMs. By and large it represents extremely poor judgment on the Imm's part.

Splntrd

Alright, maybe I better check my Int. Lol.

I don't know the particulars to your character, but I mentioned you because I thought you were around pre orcfest.

I was one of the ROTD'd Orcs (Skali) and I can tell you I don't know a soul that plays this game, nor am I Russian. I have one other character that I rolled about a month ago, but other than that I haven't played CF since like 2005.

I think the game (and you) takes itself too seriously. Being an Orc player seems lonely since they're so rare, kinda neat to see a spurt of Orc activity, anyways.

dsa

Look at the standards that have been set for orc roleplay.

NPCs in the orc village talk like doofuses. Grobbak, the current orc Imm talks similarly. Pleebert was heavily rewarded (role contest winning, even). The helpfile says "woefully stupid".

If that's not how the staff wants orcs to act, then they need to take some serious action in revamping how the class is perceived. Because currently, all of the input we get from the staff supports the way orcs are typically roleplayed today at 15 INT.

Except, of course, for one random guy who went around setting orcs' INT to 10 yesterday. So we're getting mixed messages here. I'm asking for clarification.

Splntrd

I had this sort of conversation with him a while back as I was starting to get involved with making changes to the class. It guided a lot of the echoes, skill choices, etc. None of the orc abilities, either in the original design by Scarabaeus or in various revisions, are intended to promote a race of circus clowns.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

> None of the orc abilities <...> are intended to promote a race of circus clowns.

Envisioning a race of circus clowns made me laugh out loud. I kind of wish I knew how to draw, because I have a strong desire to sketch a circus clown holding a giant, bloody axe.

Something something The Balefile of Menace.

He was a circus freak gone back to his roots.

Slaughtered a Fortie during an Interview with Baerinika to get the title. That was great.

"None of the orc abilities, either in the original design by Scarabaeus or in various revisions, are intended to promote a race of circus clowns."

Except the fact that they're vastly underpowered and their primary "balance" feature is that its RP-acceptable to be a completely gangtastic as an orc?

>Except the fact that they're vastly underpowered

I don't agree with this premise.

I started that stupid laugh with an Orc named Folutar and I regret hearing that anyone else ever did that.

"I TALK IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE THE GRINNING SKULLS IS REALLY NOISY AND NOW I'M DEAF."

Probably I ruined Orcfest for the rest of eternity with Burork and that's why they're so cautious about it.

Oh well, at least I had ONE Orc that wasn't a piece of garbage and was Chief(Urgok) for a bit.

I'm not helping your case at all, am I?

So Burork wasn't a complete waste.