I think that this one is my biggest complaint. I don't know, I have a good handful, some I've posted before.

Why does Tribunal let Outlander sit in the city when Trib has the Fetish? The two are always at war. Always. Even if Trib doesn't have the Fetish they should be able to kill on sight in a protected city with jurisdiction any and every known Outlander, criminal or not. Having the Fetish should only certify and make that rule all the more applicable. No, Trib can't perma-flag Outlander, so they wouldn't get to use manacles and autoattacking guards, but they should still be able to proactively defend the cities from those fully vested in destroying them.

You're at war but you're going to let your hated enemy sit on the high road resting because your hands are tied from bad rules and regulations? You have a freaking title alerting every known enemy where you are (being on duty) so every enemy of yours can run in and take a potshot at you if they so please, fully prep'd, while you're twiddling away in the guild just waiting for it. At hero range, most anyone can kill a guildguard in a few rounds so that the Trib has very little time to prep. Being on duty is a disadvantage in timing and preparation for the most part.

Two proposals -

1) let Tribs and only Tribs (or deputized Tribs) attack unwanted Outlanders in Galadon if Trib has the fetish.

2) let Tribs with jurisdiction in that city attack a known Outlander on sight, wanted or not, except in times of peace where Outlander agrees to not raid for the Scales.

It is just ridiculous that an Outlander can call time-out from a retrieval and be completely safe simply by fleeing one step from the captain. Make them run away, far away. There are so many exits and decent access to secret passageways to use so make them be scattered.

What if you just made all outlanders perma-wanted. Simply for being in the cabal.

You'd probably have to tone down some of the trib powers, though. Bloody shackles comes to mind.

On further thought, I disagree, for several reasons.

1. It defeats the goals and purposes of the Spire. The Spire is supposed to stop chaos and promote peace within towns. Giving Tribunals free reign to attack even unwanted Outlanders in town would just cause the opposite of its goals. I can already envision the numerous Help! Someone is attacking me! that will occur from this as Outlanders and Tribunals duke it out.

2. In a follow-up of this, in order to promote peace WITHIN the cities, it is better to have all the fighting done within the Spire rather than in the Cities. This would keep peace within the cities while shifting any chaos into the Spire instead.

3. Your second point would never be a feasible plan really, as different branches of the Tree, or just even different Outlanders would have different choices, and this would in reality become similar to just not attacking Outlanders. I'd just say I have peace, and then attack a Tribunal when they are unprepared in the city. In the end, this betrayal would just end once again in simply attacking all Outlanders at sight.

The optional path I see is making it a detriment for Outlanders to rest within cities, or having an incentive to be wanted (like the proposal of giving ancient instincts only when wanted).

I'd also like to add when I played serial Tribs that I also thought strongly of the stupidity of this idea, but if you look solely at the Tribunal ideals, this is better, IMO.

Unbound spirit already helps your regen in wilderness. What if it also lowered your recovery rate in civilized, or at least protected cities? That could be enough to get retriving Outlanders to move out of the city where Tribunals could pursue them.

So you wouldn't have it to affect your regen in cities, unless you made it a permanent affect of having reduce regen in cities.

Not that i can regardless. I also can't have ignite.

I agree that the dynamic of the trib having massive out of range help vs outlander never knowing who is around is just not clicking.

That said I think the answer lies in making the tribunal cabal better. I suggest adding the Inn as a protected area and having a branch of the tribs that run it. have a branch that oversees the cities. Have a branch that hunts down criminals/collects bounties/fights outlanders.

FWIW, Tribunal does have a branch that hunts down criminals. Nobody seems to want to play them. My guess is the limitations applied to Vindicators, both mechanical and in terms of RP, make them unappealing.

I don't think having Inn guards would do much. The Inn is already a pretty peaceful place, and Heralds can do more to stop violence in the Inn than any Tribunal can in a city, to the point where the habitual offenders simply can't come back, ever.

While I love Tribunal and the fact that it's far more well thought out and original than its (law cabal) predecessors, it seems like what a lot of players want is Arbiter back: everyone is a Magistrate of every city, and everyone can chase criminals around Thera and use their powers. Both versions have their ups and downs.

there have been as many active members as years in the last 5 years it seems.

At most times there are more herald imms then herald mortals.

asdf

With one or two exceptions in *years* of play, the only person that ends up Vindicator is air/off shifters. The only people that are well-suited to being Vindicator are air/off shifters and shaman. Technically conjurers should as well but then you spend all your time sleeping.

There was a cloud warrior vindicator back when I was playing a Rager bard. This was several years ago.

There was Death_Claw's shaman vindicator.

Other than those two, without exception every vindicator in the last six years has been air/off or off/air shifter or some high mobility variety thereof.

It doesn't mean people don't try for it, it's that the standards for becoming one (and a Justiciar for that matter) are as high or higher than becoming full Maran. It could also mean that it's high time Vindicator powers were tweaked to help with tracking down criminals and giving them more tools than 'where pk' and heal refresh, as opposed to merely bloody shackling them.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

That's completely false. Going back six years, there have been three shifters (including Ewol..someone, not on this list). There has been one shaman. See for yourself:

08/03/2009
14:55:12 <51 Human Shf> (Deleted) Shalsad the Scourer of the Skies, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 73, Hours: 402, Align: Evil, Ethos: Orderly

02/25/2008
20:45:54 <51 Human Asn> (Deleted) Geran the Deliverer of Order, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 47, Hours: 217, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

04/22/2007
22:05:40 <51 Human A-P> (Deleted) Nuloh the Fist of Darkness, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 66, Hours: 337, Align: Evil, Ethos: Orderly

02/25/2007
14:13:13 <51 Svirf War> (Rage) Progglesnort Nip the Legend of the Battlefield, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 276, Hours: 224, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

10/12/2006
15:28:26 <51 Gnome Shf> (Con-Loss) Spenner Rynke the Grand Master of Changelings, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 425, Hours: 362, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

06/20/2006
15:50:50 <51 Min War> (Age-Death) Caroolth Holdersson the Meticulous Drover, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 68, Hours: 385, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

04/12/2006
21:45:53 <51 Felar War> (Deleted) Artisle the Blooded Seeker, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 34, Hours: 131, Align: Evil, Ethos: Orderly

12/30/2005
21:58:21 <51 Dwarf Pal> (Deleted) Braeburn the Champion of the Virtues, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 198, Hours: 211, Align: Good, Ethos: Orderly

11/08/2005
21:41:04 <51 Storm War> (Deleted) Jaraffazar the Fabulous Legend, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 205, Hours: 122, Align: Good, Ethos: Orderly

11/01/2005
18:34:13 <51 Min War> (Rage) Ornerne the Legend of the Battlefield, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 51, Hours: 211, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

07/01/2005
20:55:49 <45 Felar A-P> (Deleted) Emonnev the Ferally Envious, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 41, Hours: 180, Align: Evil, Ethos: Orderly

05/04/2005
02:19:08 <51 Arial War> (Con-Loss) Tolchec the Smitten Lover of the Meretricious, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 39, Hours: 283, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

03/08/2005
17:31:33 <51 Svirf War> (Rage) Vargblot the Stout-Hearted, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 369, Hours: 277, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

01/16/2005
23:11:47 <51 Cloud War> (Con-Loss) Klendalstak Snowskin the Macabre Dancer, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 369, Hours: 329, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

10/30/2004
12:33:25 <46 H-Drw Dru> (Rage) Verdelyeb Ferdalgasp the Inquisitor of the Natural Order, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 116, Hours: 193, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

09/08/2004
21:11:17 <51 Felar War> (Age-Death) Kaplanov Dashiel the Initiate of the Old Ways, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 92, Hours: 556, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

08/16/2004
19:53:20 <51 Dwarf Sha> (Age-Death) Odrirg Gorimm the Bane of Chaos, Priest of the Ki-rin, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 337, Hours: 425, Align: Good, Ethos: Orderly

06/18/2004
08:38:59 <51 Gnome Inv> (Age-Death) Traba the Weaver of the Elements, Vindicator of the Blood Tribunal
Age: 598, Hours: 538, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly

02/06/2004
01:32:15 <51 D-Elf Inv> (Deleted) Kelrizza the Hand of Law, Vindicator $
Age: 692, Hours: 634, Align: Evil, Ethos: Orderly

01/01/2004
20:41:40 <51 Cloud War> (Deleted) Oblain kun Quinslin the Gladiator of the Spire, Vindicator
Age: 471, Hours: 607, Align: Neutral, Ethos: Orderly, PK Ratio: 68%

My memory for that post goes back to roughly 2007. I would say that prior to that year, other indirect variables have affected the game so much that you can't possibly go back an entire decade and use that as proper data for refuting an observation.

There's been 7 Vindicators in your table through 2006. 8 if you count Ewoneliya.

Of those 8, only half lasted over 300 hours. That means the rest spent only around 100 hours and probably far less than that in the position.

Meanwhile, the Vindicators anyone actually remembers, are still far and along, the air/off shifters. Now, one can say that factors surrounding each deletion are just as varied, and I agree. PBFs also don't exist for roughly half the characters you listed.

So either we're agreeing to disagree or the argument is completely inconclusive. Except until you note how many vindicators were in each given year. Fewer vindicators each year + a MUD size that has remained largely stable + air shifters (of which I know where were more than ####ing 3 in the last 3 years) + the period of time each was vindicator (Ewoneliya wasn't vindicator longer than a week before she raised hell about not being able to flag people in Galadon) still lends weight to the fact that the ones that enjoy their job, do remotely well, and last longest tend to be air shifters with practice tracking people down.

Your list also isn't complete. Pissudin isn't on there, for instance, and I know he existed between 2004 and 2006.

I agree, for the most part.

I do think that lately though, the lack of Vindicators is due more to a lack of interest from players than it is a problem of people trying and failing. The ones that do make their desire clear and fail are usually the ones who delete early or stay well below the established bar, so to speak.

The problem, I think (I've never had a Vindicator), is that it's boring. If you're any good at your job, people quickly begin to avoiding becoming wanted in the first place. That's great from an IC perspective, but the player may not find the job exciting since the job means losing all your regular Magistrate duties. It's also a role that probably doesn't (or shouldn't) appeal to people who aren't skilled in PK, since your primary enemies are usually people came out on top and/or can hold a flag for a while.

>The only
>people that are well-suited to being Vindicator are air/off
>shifters and shaman.

I wanted to do an assassin vindicator. Kind of thought it'd be awesome.

..and then assassinate them once they walked out?

Not exactly sire how detects work for Vindicators.

Well, I'm not sure either as I've never had one. I think its just thief/duergar detect hidden + detect invis. Which would be redundant on an assassin.

I wanted it mostly for martial trance + assassin maledicts + bloody shackles.

The problem with assassins is often that you can't keep the person from just running away when they get all broken up. Shackles would fix that.

Only problem: only good against wanted people. So, pretty niche.

On the other hand, any sane wanted person is going to immediately run when they see a vindicator in the area. Hide would give you the ability to sneak up on criminals who don't detect hidden, with guards, and shackle them. At which point they'd be toast.

First, you have to keep in mind that the Tribunal loses almost nothing by not having the scales while Outlander loses all of it's most useful powers. That in itself calls for some kind of disparity when we're talking about retrievals.

Second, a good portion of the members of Outlanders (rangers and druids) fight with significant disadvantage when retrieving/raiding while the Tribunal doesn't necessarily face the same disadvantages when they are going the other way. (Completely undefended it's a pain in the ass for a ranger to try and retrieve/raid any cabal (all are civilized) without significant prepping and/or a pocket healer)

Third, Outlander by it's nature (no pun intended) can't typically call for aid in defending/raiding when they are outnumbered (despite the occasional Fortlander episodes) while it is commonplace for the Spire to call on the Empire for defense and raids.

Fourth, they're your laws and regulations and that sword cuts both ways. You want a free-for-all? Adjust the laws to allow it. I can recall egging Bladerunner on when I had an Arbiter years (decades?) ago and we actually made a law that it was illegal to wield a weapon in town. It was hilarious enforcing that one for a few short weeks until someone else repealed it.

Lastly, the Spire is the only cabal that mandates things like all weapons be confiscated from corpses so raiding/retrieving has real costs for those attempting it. And it's the only cabal that can use out-of-range guards to kill people (with the WANTED flag). All in all what you're proposing is to simply make it impossible for Outlander to ever retrieve, much less raid unless the place is undefended or they vastly outnumber the Spire.


Again, just my 2 cents from someone who hasn't had a cabal'ed char in ages now but who likes a bit of Entropy in his mud.

First, Tribunals also have 0 power outside of cities, while Outlanders retain all their powers wherever they go. (And there are a lot more wilderness areas than PROTECTED areas.) This in itself calls for a counter to the disparity when you're giving reasons for disparities in retrievals.

Second, I don't know where you got the idea that Tribunals don't face the same disadvantages. They don't have the easy, flee;rest command, and they don't fully know who they're fighting.

Third, well, look at the above.

Fourth, there is nothing to say on this.

Fifth, you can't confiscate corpses created through raiding/retrieving unless they are wanted and they are raiding only. Also, it's not a rule to take weapons from corpses that are not wanted. That's up to the magistrate, just like it is up to an Outlander that kills a Tribunal. Also, I see no real difference between an Outtie looting a Trib. I also do not see how he is making it impossible for Outlanders to ever retrieve.

>First, Tribunals also have 0 power outside of cities, while
>Outlanders retain all their powers wherever they go. (And
>there are a lot more wilderness areas than PROTECTED areas.)
>This in itself calls for a counter to the disparity when
>you're giving reasons for disparities in retrievals.
>

Maybe you have not played an outlander but most of their powers do not work in cities/civilized areas...so both face this difficulty when it comes to raids/retrievals.



>Second, I don't know where you got the idea that Tribunals
>don't face the same disadvantages. They don't have the easy,
>flee;rest command, and they don't fully know who they're
>fighting.
>
>Third, well, look at the above.
>
>Fourth, there is nothing to say on this.
>
>Fifth, you can't confiscate corpses created through
>raiding/retrieving unless they are wanted and they are raiding
>only. Also, it's not a rule to take weapons from corpses that
>are not wanted. That's up to the magistrate, just like it is
>up to an Outlander that kills a Tribunal. Also, I see no real
>difference between an Outtie looting a Trib. I also do not see
>how he is making it impossible for Outlanders to ever
>retrieve.

>Maybe you have not played an outlander but most of their powers do not >work in cities/civilized areas...so both face this difficulty when it >comes to raids/retrievals.


This should be... fairly obvious at a glance from the names of each power.

I don't even know why you're pointing this out as a balance consideration.

What I'm saying, and this goes for the person above Scrimbul as well, is that it is true that Tribunals retain all their critical powers without the Scales, while the Outlanders lose almost all of theirs if they lose the Fetish.

However, I'm pointing out that Tribunal powers are useless outside of Protected areas, while Outlanders can use their powers for PKing and ranking and exploring whenever they have the Fetish. In other words, yes Tribunals have less to lose when they lose their cabal item, but they also have less to gain from having it. Outlanders have more to lose, but more to gain.

Well the first line of the original post says outlanders can use their powers everywhere. This is false. I was just making sure that was clear.

Perhaps my next sentence of "there are a lot more wilderness areas than Protected areas" wasn't clear enough.

>First, Tribunals also have 0 power outside of cities, while
>Outlanders retain all their powers wherever they go. (And
>there are a lot more wilderness areas than PROTECTED areas.)
>This in itself calls for a counter to the disparity when
>you're giving reasons for disparities in retrievals.

As pointed out below, Outlander powers are useless for retrievals. And the Tribunal leaders can even bring very large guards with them to retrieve even when they don't have the scales.


>Second, I don't know where you got the idea that Tribunals
>don't face the same disadvantages. They don't have the easy,
>flee;rest command, and they don't fully know who they're
>fighting.


They have the easy flee; recall; rest and if Outlanders come after them -- WANT them and then bring all the guards into it.

>
>Third, well, look at the above.
>
>Fourth, there is nothing to say on this.
>
>Fifth, you can't confiscate corpses created through
>raiding/retrieving unless they are wanted and they are raiding
>only. Also, it's not a rule to take weapons from corpses that
>are not wanted. That's up to the magistrate, just like it is
>up to an Outlander that kills a Tribunal. Also, I see no real
>difference between an Outtie looting a Trib. I also do not see
>how he is making it impossible for Outlanders to ever
>retrieve.

By the Spires own law, if they're raiding, they're WANTED.

The point of all this is that there are at least as many handicaps already in place for Outlanders, especially when trying to retrieve, that the original idea of letting Tribunal attack them everywhere is rather unbalanced. It may look unfair but someday play an Outlander who retrieves and then flees in the wrong direction and ends up WANTED and killed by a pack of out of range guards almost immediately and see how fair you think it is.

Look at my response to Scrimbul/Elerosse. You missed the point that argument.

Saying they have an "easy flee" I find is not true in pure retrieval situations. Ignoring snares and brambles, deadfall, camo, and windwalk makes it a lot harder to retrieve, and that's not including the fact that for both raids and retrievals the Outlanders have a shorter amount of space to walk to in order to be relatively safe from harm. And I don't think anyone will agree with you that flee;recall;rest is better than the flee;rest of the Outlanders.

>By the Spires own law, if they're raiding, they're WANTED.

I know? I wrote only if they are raiding. In retrieval terms, an out of range Tribunal can do very little really besides call people, which won't always work.

I'm not disagreeing with you that there is at least some balance to things when it comes to raid/retrieval. I'm just saying that your arguments aren't really right. And also, a lot of Provosts I've seen stress the point of if you retrieve and flee in the wrong direction, you're not supposed to be wanted.

" I can recall egging Bladerunner on when I had an Arbiter years (decades?) ago and we actually made a law that it was illegal to wield a weapon in town. It was hilarious enforcing that one for a few short weeks until someone else repealed it. "


That was Justice, FWIW, and it sucked. Even Twist was upset at the change.

Of course, back then it was announced via "gossip", too, so...

Write some kind of article or whatever about what CF was like waaay back in the day. I started playing around the time Masters was on it's way out, and I've seen some random logs from the Masters-era, but I'd love to hear about what CF was like in the first/second age, even if there aren't (m)any lags.

Nostalgia thread plz?

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=7&topic_id=619&mesg_id=619&page=

Hahahahah... hahaha... that #### is funny...

I remember that diploma. What was it? Like +2 int or wis, +5 mana +5 hp?

That being said...

Granted I couldn't find the grunting boar inn if you paid me with my first 3 characters and one guy was REALLY patient enough to walk me through how to play the game. It was a mixed bag.

The RP standard now is better... but not as good as it was when I was playing Trewyn. Everyone now a days has expectations of what X should be like and back in the day, that wasn't true. There was a ANTI-PALADIN VILLAGER!!! You could do ANYTHING. Elf Necromancer (though both of those were NOT in the first age)

But back in the days you are talking about... it was retarded. PK at level 5 (which was awesome... chill touch could WRECK a warrior), you lose XP for getting PK'd. There WERE 20 people gunning after you for EVERY rank. You could SUMMON from anywhere... basically. Global summon is what they called it. Late 3rd age they BITCHED about conjurers (when they came in) having global summon (al la nightgaunt).

Level 15 giants (there were no fire, storm, cloud) could dish out DEMOLISHES in regular melee. The IMMS were asinine, childish, RUDE, and at best difficult to deal with. Sometimes they would blatantly abuse their power... but it was SOOO cool because sometimes they would blatantly decide to poof you a cool weapon just to run around and kill folks with. Though sometimes this was when the MUD went retardedly stupidly broke and they were cool enough to put up a POS-type thing where everone was insta hero'd and given an awesome set with wide coppers and junk.

Lag was HORRIBLE... I mean HORRIBLE! Since we got stupidly fast internet you don't/can't comprehend what it's like running around thera on a 9600 baud modem on a backbone that's already flooded. Oh the day I got a 28.8 I thought I was the stuff... then came the 56k and NONE of it compared the the speed I got when I broke into the computer lab at the school. (It was against the rules to mud via modem connect at my school and sometimes they'd bitch about mudding from the computer labs).

There was no rule on names. Macleod was a pain in the ass... but he'd turn #### if you had two buddies. I hacked into a guy's account named DEATH because he was retarded enough to have DEATH or DEAD (I think it was dead) as his password.

Look in Balator... most of those guys are first/second age doods. Twist used to have a love affair with Truck. He'd talk about how awesome Truck was over the Master CB and sometimes I would question Twist's sexuality Though Colin and Nepenthe were always cool Imms when Nepenthe wasn't being a ####. He's since learned tact in his responses to stupid questions (I know this from personal experience). Incendentally, Daevryn is one of my favorite Imms to interact with IC because some of the #### he says is just ####ing hilarious, but I've developed a sense of humor since then. I was in junior high in the 1st age.

Also thieves couldn't backstab without a weapon that PIERCED... that ####ing spider shaped dagger you gave me I COULDN'T BACKSTAB WITH!!! I don't know which imm that was. But I wasn't being an asshole... I asked you for a dagger I could backstab with and you give me the awesomest dagger in the game and every time I type backstab XXX I get "You can't backstab with that" or some BS. The number of abusable bugs was ENORMOUS!!! All in all it was a lot more relaxed than it is now. *sigh*

If CF ever goes down, log onto POS or what ever pops up and you'll see fairly close to what CF was like in the first age.


*** I just remembered stuff ***

There used to be a spider filled tree where the shadow grove is now that had a blue potion in it. There USED to be an OPAL RING in a corpse... which before that was on a mob in the area west of Midgaard (now known as GALADON). That OPAL RING is still there... in the Faewyn Weald. I don't know if any others get nostalgic feelings from that, but I do.

The number of randomized mazes was HUGE. The void was randomized. It was essential to know basically which directions you needed to go in it to run away from the gank squads coming for you. As it stands now, the ONLY randomized maze that "I" can think of that exists still is in the WOTD (waters of the deep) and in an area explore that looks like it was inspired from one of the more interesting mushroom trips people have. ENOTROPY could randomize any room (though later it was made any non "protected" room). (FWI, the joker from the Dark Knight will ALWAYS be the BEST movie characterization of a CF Baron of Chaos I've EVER seen). Pico was an alright imm... when he didn't have sand up his ass. I still like the fact that he transferred me to the bowels of hell when I asked him to duel me and we fought in Mephisto's shadow... where he used that !@#$% trick coin that always came out as he wanted it to decide who would go first... where he backstabbed me and instantly killed me with a double UNSPEAK dual backstab.

Technically, the two *COULD* live in perfect peace if leadership happened to feel like it. Not likely to happen, but possible.

Outlander tends toward one of two things -
1) We hate civilization.
2) We love nature.

Now, this is CF, and so most people tends towards #1, which has more killing. Many characters have a bit of both, but you can quite easily be an outlaw who hates nature, but is forced to live there so he doesn't get hung, or a druid or healer or somesuch who just loves being a hippy and communing with nature.

The #2 crowd could even feasibly not care one way or another about Tribunal, so long as they do it in their cities and don't come ruining the wilderness.

The #1 crowd? Yeah, they hate Tribunal, Magistrates, guards, cities, coins, and everything else involved in cities. They're going to war with Tribunal.

Now, Tribunal. Really, they don't care one way or another about Outlanders, or Empire, or Fortress, or Ragers. All Tribunal wants is people to follow the Law inside the four cities. You want to be an Outlander and spend all your life doped up hugging trees? More power to you. Rager wants to cleanse the eastern road of magi permanently? Good for you. In the cities? Not so much. Their only true enemies are criminals.

Hence, Tribunal feels the need to take the fetish? Fine, but now they've started the fight with all the Outlanders, including the ones that might otherwise just hang out happily in the woods. So really, Tribunal has no reason to take the fetish any more or less than any other cabal, unless you're dealing with habitual criminals. Which...yes, a lot of Outlanders probably are. I wouldn't view it any differently than Ragers getting out of hand, ICly, though, even though as a player, I was more than happy to have a reason to go raid someone and get into fights.

My Magistrates raid for the fetish because they know that *MOST* Outlanders are going to use the powers supplied by it to commit crimes. I choose to play that way because raiding is fun, however, and I think that it's perfectly valid RP for a Magistrate to never raid (but retrieve) and simply focus on playing a defensive, protective "city guard" role in Tribunal.

The primary goals and responsibilities of Magistrates are to maintain order and safety within the cities by seeing to it that the laws are followed and enforced. Personal hatred over ideology is definitely optional, IMHO.

I think I mentioned that in a roundabout way by stating that the change I proposed would not occur if Outlander agreed to not raid for the Scales. I see everything Trib does as being reactive to Outlander. Which is good, because like you said, Trib cares for promoting order in the protected cities. Outlander makes the choice to interrupt that, Trib reacts by taking the Fetish.

Don't take the Scales and we won't attack you in the cities. You'd actually be welcomed in the cities, for the most part, except for when you decide to attack someone and justice is required. But take the Scales and we'll show you no quarter, you'll be most unwelcome in the cities.

This would also allow for more dynamics between the branches. Nightreaver's side would probably never allow it while the Sunwarden side should probably push for it. The tiebreaker would be current events, in-char relationships, and the decisioning by the Harbinger.

You know they are now an enemy and looking to ruin that which protects laws. Crimnals are criminals, if you down the scales you are marked for "death row" there is no quarter for one who takes the powers of those who hold the peace.

Outlanders who want to fight the war with trib have to face those consequences.