Hey just wanted to give an opinion on handing this out given the bruhaha on the battlefield. First let me say that people shouldn't be silly and pitch a fit if they don't get enough or whatever. That's number 1.

That said, I would personally prefer it if an immortal who didn't like my role that much would just ignore it and not hand out a small amount of exp. I.e. if you think my role is only worth 500 exp, I'd rather wait a while longer and hope that someone else thinks it's worth the 1500 or so. As far as I can tell, if someone has already been rewarded for a background role, it doesn't really get looked at again. Nobody is going to read it and say "Oh, I see Borkhad read it, but I know he doesn't really like long roles, so I'll drop another 1.5k on it because I'm the kind of person that likes big roles."

This is especially true when it comes to longer "epic" type roles. I totally understand that some people don't want to read a backstory that wastes words on things that aren't 100% relevant to the character's current state. But I do tend to go for subtle effects of past experiences, which may just be a waste of effort, but to me help flesh out the character and make it more interesting. I'll probably start including a "how these experience affect things" that accompanies the story to help out those who aren't keen on narratives.

Anyhow, it's totally cool with me if you don't personally think my role is worth more than 500 exp... that won't offend me. However, if you think my role is just okay, I would prefer to wait for one of the people that might appreciate it more do the rewarding. And if my role really isn't worth more than 500 to anyone, then that's okay, I don't feel entitled to any reward at all. But I've had immortals send me tells saying "that's a great role" so I know some people appreciate them, and I would just prefer not to lose the opportunity to have those people be the ones taking notice.

Let me reinforce again that I appreciate the effort an immortal puts into reading roles. If roles gave out no exp at all, I would still write them for my own RPing benefit and for the entertainment of the imms that do like that sort of thing. To some extent, I feel like writing stories for my characters is something I can do to make the immortal experience more fun. Maybe not everyone is into long roles, or maybe my writing isn't good enough for some people (and I can accept that), but as long as it seems like some people are enjoying them it's worth it to me.

..that reading roles takes a ton of time. I know I spent many nights reading every unflagged role (using my buffer to keep tabs on the list). Smile and say done, check it again, and bam! Tons of roles again, and some by the same people hoping to harvest imm exp. Which by the way is very annoying. If you have things to add, add it. Your exp might increase by what is actually in them!

Also, if you write in a horrid format, where it hurts the eyes to even try to decipher what you have written, there is a good chance it is going to not get crap. I also would note that a boring role gets read through quickly sometimes, because people sometime do not have the skill to get somethings across.

This whole post I found to be nothing more than conceit. I have not read another post yet, let me be up front about that, so excuse me if this echoes other thoughts, but the idea that you want an Imm who already took the time to read your role to say no, someone else read it because I didn't drop 1500 on him? You want every Imm to read it, and the one who rates it highest to give you XP? Really? Come on, that's about the biggest load of bs I've ever heard.

I don't know if you think you write such great **** in your roles that an Imm who does not give you the 1500 should just do nothing so that someone else might than have the glorious privilege of reading it and dropping the XP you so richly deserve. I doubt it, you seem respectful, but at the same time insulting to the Imms.

Were I an Imm I would essentially be lobbying for removal of role exp all together because of posts like this. You say you write roles for you? Good. Keep doing it. That's what it is for.

You know what IMM xp is? A chance bonus. A chance that you get an Imm to read it. A chance that the Imm who reads it likes it. A chance that the Imm than gives you xp. It's not a job, and it sure as hell is a jackass move to say leave it for someone else to read because you know what they will enjoy. Imms who watch your char and find it interesting will take a look at your role. Give them a reason to with your regular RP. If Imms want to read fun entertaining stories, they probably buy a book by a favorite author. They look at roles to learn about your char. If they are entertained more the the better for them, but that's not why they are doing it as far as I can tell.

Plus, an Imm in a role contest reads the whole role, so there you go, enter every month and soon all the Imms will see it. The day to day stuff you seem to want is excessive and cumbersome on an already taxed Imm staff, and that's a shame, cause knowing characters you;ve played and seeing their roles you do write good roles and play good memorable chars, but this post is nothing more than a pat on your own back for that.

And yeah, a few drinks when I wrote this, but this post really annoyed me. Sorry.

>This whole post I found to be nothing more than conceit.

I don't think I'm an amazing writer or anything. If I was, I'd just write a book or something. But while I don't think I'm a fantastic writer, I do think it's possible I can write a role that at least some imms can get decent enjoyment out of. How is it conceited to wonder if it's a waste of time if the people who might enjoy reading it don't because someone who wouldn't enjoy it read it first?

Compare it to music. If, say, Twist is Pearl Jam, I'm maybe a Silverchair, but at least I'm not Creed or something. But if you have Leonard Bernstein reviewing them, you're going to get a "meh, it's okay I guess" kind of response no matter what. And wouldn't you want Kurt Cobain to hear your stuff instead of looking at Leonard Bernstein's negative opinion and skipping it?

Sure, I write them for myself to some extent, but not *only* for myself. If I were writing it for myself it would basically just be a sloppy short-hand version that roughs out the plot elements. The polishing and incorporation of feedback from friends and stuff is basically to make it nicer for imms to read. Certainly wouldn't bother with that just for myself.

Again, I don't give a rat's ass about the exp in and of itself. If I just want to whore for imm exp that's easy enough to do. The reason exp is relevant though is because it is typically the *only* yardstick for judging whether the role is well-received. I once got a tell saying "great role" or something. I don't even know if I got imm exp for that one, because it doesn't matter. Furthermore it's not about ego gratification either, because CF isn't really a prestigious venue for publishing writing. The point of the extra effort is to entertain the imms. If I spend a significant amount of time attempting that, then I'd like to know whether I succeeded. If my long-winded roles are just cumbersome to everyone then I'd like to know that too so I can just not bother. And unfortunately the only mechanism by which I can know that, is imm exp, because I'm not about to make an ass of myself by demanding feedback via pray. I'll just make an ass of myself on the forums instead, it seems.

But whatever, clearly I'm just annoying people, imms included, so I'll just shut up. And despite my best efforts everyone is just taking it as "wah I want more exp points to boost my character up" when that's not the point at all, which is getting frustrating. I also don't want to discourage Borkhad either. I think it's awesome that he's an avid role-reader, even if he just happens not to like my style of role.

I only got 500xp for my role as Ellywinkle and I thought it meant the role was good, now I learn the 500 is a crappy role but thanks for playing? Oh well, it didn't ruin the char in my eyes and I still had fun with her. Guess I need to brush up on my role skills. At least I got 1000 for my cabal interview and an admission from Daevryn that he had fun with it. That is worth 5 bajillion imm xp to me.

.

500 means it's a minimal role with very little insight into the character.

0 exp means crappy.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I honestly thought crappy roles were given the honor of having Nep say something like this in your PBF :

From Jutunn's role (a special role/char in my black heart, I hated this guy):

Wed Aug 22 13:52:45 2007 by 'Daevryn' at level 51 (226 hrs):
This role is... I want to say special, but that feels unfair to retarded children.

and!

Thu Aug 30 00:40:54 2007 by 'Daevryn' at level 51 (271 hrs):
Tried reading the role again... have to upgrade my earlier comments to 'most retarded role in the history of the role command'. Not only is his role basically, let me bitch about OOC stuff,

Thu Aug 30 00:41:27 2007 by 'Daevryn' at level 51 (271 hrs):
most of what he's bitching about either makes zero sense or is just plain wrong. My cat pukes up things that make more sense.

Thu Aug 30 00:44:17 2007 by 'Daevryn' at level 51 (271 hrs):
Also: male sirine? WTF?!

If someone's already flagged your role, your best chance of getting me to also read it (aside from having entered this month's role contest) is to make your RP in the game really stand out.

That also tends to get me to hand you more XP or other goodies.

Especially since you did seem to watch me a bit

God damn Weald giant killing me in two hits! Oh wait, I had 45 hp

...screw that.

If I take the time to read your role, and I end up slogging through what I think is a colossal suckfest, I sure as hell am not going to just pretend I didn't read it, and force some OTHER imm to slog through it, too.

Sure, you might get lucky and get an imm who is softer than warm butter (which is what I am, in general, as soft as), but more likely you'll just end up with a history at some point that says "I read this role and hated it, don't bother with it unless you're feeling generous" or something like that.

Personally I'd be pissed if I read some guy's suckass role, commented to another imm about how suckass it was, and that imm said "Yeah, I read it, it sure does suck. I didn't mark it as read, though, you know, so that guy could get more edgepoints."


Now on the other hand, if I've got a short bit of time and I go to read some roles and I see a guy with 15 chapters that haven't been read, I WILL skip that and let someone else with more time read it, and instead read the one with 3 entries (or whatever).

Food for your role-writing thought.

nt

Didn't I say no text!?!?

You're already reviewing roles? Lucky bastard. I was happy just to spend time in the desc room.

we did make it recently so 52's could review roles. That way you have THAT fun to look forward to when you get your area in! Yay?

>If I take the time to read your role, and I end up slogging
>through what I think is a colossal suckfest, I sure as hell am
>not going to just pretend I didn't read it, and force some
>OTHER imm to slog through it, too.

The point though, was that people who just basically don't like long roles then don't have to slog through anything. I never meant that if you just aren't a softie then you should pass until a softie reads it, though I very much see how I wasn't clear on that. What I meant is that if some people just simply don't like long roles, doing it my way would make it so they never feel like they need to read another one.

If a role completely sucks and isn't worth more than 500, or even 0 exp then absolutely mark it so that no other imm has to endure it. But I'm suggesting that if it's just not your preferred style, then it might be better to leave the history unmarked. Some imms have said they don't like third person narratives, someimms have said they don't like long roles, some do. Others have said they are cool with those types.

All I'm saying is that it just kind of sucks for everyone concerned if the only person reading a role just happens to not like that particular kind of role.

If you tell me that all roles will be rewarded 0exp from now on, that's fine, I would still write them. But on the other hand, if nobody is going to read it because the first guy who got to it just doesn't like that role style then, it seems stupid to put a lot of effort in on the off-chance that the "right" people will read it. At that point I should stop focusing on making it enjoyable and just write two paragraphs of "mages burned my village" and be done with it.

Some imms have stated that they don't prefer one format over another. In fact, I've received 2k imm xp for roles that I thought were subpar and 1k imm xp for roles that I thought were absolutely amazing. Rarely did I receive 500 imm xp.

I might draft a guideline on writing roles (I'm not the best, but I'm no slouch) - consider this, do you HONESTLY think that you put enough effort into it to get 1k xp? Does it tell you enough of the character? Is it a unique story that puts a twist in the standard cloud giant villager spec sword bash flurry kill mage role (I know, I know, ironic I say that)?

Typically, any role that I conceive that I really put an effort into thinking that the role WOULD BE FUN TO PLAY, and NOT FOR THE SAKE OF GETTING IMM XP, garnish a lot of attention. On the flipside, roles that I've created in the past just to get imm xp get crap xp, and subsequently, I delete shortly after (disconnected from the crap XP I received).

It's like in college - you can write your ass off and still get a C because you miss the point. Coincidentally, the point of roles to imms it to get to know more about your character - motivations, goals, why you chose the class, the race, your history. Moreso, keep in mind that you are writing for people - thus, writing a role that has some emotions and empathy in it typically works better. Of course, I would suggest this only for recent roles after edges came it - god knows Meagara's roles were interesting but not really constructively written (no offense Twist).

If you get angry or delete because you only get 500 xp for a role, you need to take a step back and realize why you're writing the role - if it's for imm xp, I guarantee that you won't have as much fun with the character.

***End Rant

As for your suggestion, it's not fair to tell the imms to pick and choose which role they read. They're quite busy with other issues besides reading roles. And a difference of 500 xp and 1000xp isn't enough to garnish the distraction that you're requesting.

Furthermore, it's hard to say that the reason why you got 500 xp instead of 1000 xp is because the imm didn't 'like your style' - he probably didn't like your role as much or thought it lacked interest. If you really want a lot of xp for your role, make one that's FUN and INTERESTING - I'll guarantee you get more than 500.

I have 2 or 3 roles that I've been working on for a bit that would be amazingly interesting to RP - I'll wager I get at least 1k xp for each one, if not more.

I would argue that in the case in which you write a giant origin story that doesn't say anything useful about the RP of the character, even if I enjoy reading it, it probably does not deserve a lot of XP.

>I would argue that in the case in which you write a giant
>origin story that doesn't say anything useful about the
>RP of the character, even if I enjoy reading it, it probably
>does not deserve a lot of XP.

I don't want to give away all of my characters from here everafter but I generally do this:

Have a big backstory, hopefully enjoyable, maybe not. This backstory does indicate a lot of things, but a lot of them will be quite subtle. For example, the reason I have the accent I do should be evident (growing up among urchins). Or why I prefer not to buy food from drow (got poisoned one time). But it won't state these connections explicitly.

Then I'll have something that outlines the RP of my role, just basically stating what is what. The fact that I avoid buying food from drow, but not why. What the sphere means, major desires, goals, etc.

A quick reference of everything. A synopsis of the story, some quick descriptions of major RP points, etc.

To this I'll probably have to start adding some kind of whack-ass literary analysis that maps one to another like:

Hates people named Bob (A guy named bob punched him, see backstory Line 42)
Enjoys mending wounds (was briefly a town hero for setting the mayor's splint, see line 94)

Since apparently some people want a very explicit relationship.

Generally, a narrative doesn't have room for stopping to say "and this is why at some point 20 years later he is this way" every 3 sentences.
What I aim for is trying to make it reasonably easy to connect the dots. So you know that he doesn't like people named bob, and you know he got punched by a Bob, and you can put two and two together. But I'll start putting in those mappings so that it's more obvious.

The biggest thing then is just not having the role format be too distinctive. Usually I try to modify it slightly between characters, but maybe it's either futile to try disguising myself or pointless since nobody will recognize the style anyway.

>That said, I would personally prefer it if an immortal who
>didn't like my role that much would just ignore it and not
>hand out a small amount of exp. I.e. if you think my role is
>only worth 500 exp, I'd rather wait a while longer and hope
>that someone else thinks it's worth the 1500 or so.

If every imm did this wouldn't it just raise the avg. amount given out for initial role entries.

The ideal solution if we had unlimited staff time (which we don't) would be to have 3-4 people read every role and assign an xp amount without the other reviewers seeing, then take the median of those values.

Since that's unrealistic, though, we're left with "Life is like a box of chocolates."

>If every imm did this wouldn't it just raise the avg. amount
>given out for initial role entries.

Is that a problem? We're not talking about thousands here. Furthermore, the higher average would also likely even out the rewards between roles of equal quality, whereas now it's random whether your role is evaluated by the guy who likes your kind of role, or the opposite.

This comes at the price of waiting longer. In fact, this would absorb less staff time overall, since people who know they don't like long roles can just ignore them with the expectation that the person who does like long roles might get around to it eventually, and that the person who wrote the role wouldn't want the short-role-preference imms to waste their time reading something they won't enjoy anyway.

We'd have the same problem, just shifted upwards by a couple hundred xp. Basically "1000 xp" would become the new "500 xp".

>We'd have the same problem, just shifted upwards by a couple
>hundred xp. Basically "1000 xp" would become the new "500
>xp".

Not really. I'm not saying adjust the amounts rewarded. So, for example, there simple cannot be a role worth 5000. Here's how I see the amounts existing:

500exp: Kind of crappy role, but at least something
1000exp: Average quality role
1500exp: high quality role
2000exp: great role

I've never had 2500 for a role, but maybe it's possible still, I dunno. Really my preferences won't work unless there's some way for people to indicate what they think their role is worth. Of course, right now if you say any such thing in your role it would instantly go in the crap pile and nobody would ever look at it again. And that of course can't work because then people will feel entitled. For me, if I said "I think this role is worth 1500exp" and I never got it because nobody thought it was good enough that would be useful information. It would mean I need to improve. But right now being rewarded 500xp isn't really an indicator of anything.

I do realize none of this can work in practical terms because most people are big babies and would whine about how their 1500exp demand was quite conservative and the staff is a bunch of idiots for not recognizing the greatness of their work. What I'm really interested in is trying to set a bar for myself to reach. I want to say "I'm aiming this high, did I hit that mark?" but there's no way to do that right now.

In practical terms, whether you get 500imm exp or 1500 is kind of irrelevant. 1000 exp just isn't a huge deal either way. It's not going to have a profound impact on your character, unless your RP is kind of weak and you weren't going to get much anyway.

You can get 2500. My point is that if you basically get rid of the "500" rung in that ladder, that anybody who got the new "lowest" amount, e.g. 1000, would complain about having gotten 1000.

>You can get 2500. My point is that if you basically get rid
>of the "500" rung in that ladder, that anybody who got the new
>"lowest" amount, e.g. 1000, would complain about having gotten
>1000.

And if you get rid of 500, you see more people getting 0 than you would today if 1000 became the new minimum.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>And if you get rid of 500, you see more people getting 0 than
>you would today if 1000 became the new minimum.

So let people get 0. That's an unequivocal statement of "your role sucks and nobody here likes it" What I'm saying is that if I think someone will like my role enough to count it as 1500 points I would rather wait for that person to see it, and if nobody ever thinks it worth that much then fine, let me have 0. That means I need to do better.

And if it really is just a sucky role that anybody can tell will not be particularly enjoyed by anyone else, then fine, slap it with a 1exp award to point out that it has failed.

This isn't about increasing exp awards, or thinking that 500exp is somehow "not enough". If the exp awards were 1, 2, 3 or 4 exp I would still welcome an opportunity to say "I've tried hard to make this role a 3, so if you just dislike this basic style of role, please move on and give someone else a chance" But as I just said, I think I'm wasting my time and will just stop writing long roles, since the consensus seems to be that most people don't like them, and even if some people do, once your role is read by someone who doesn't like long roles then nobody else will ever see it.

>But as I just said, I think I'm wasting my time and
>will just stop writing long roles, since the consensus seems
>to be that most people don't like them, and even if some
>people do, once your role is read by someone who doesn't like
>long roles then nobody else will ever see it.

"I don't think your role is helpful in understanding or judging the quality of your roleplay" is not the same thing as "I don't like your role."

This is a general/plural you; I don't think I could name any of your characters.

>"I don't think your role is helpful in understanding or
>judging the quality of your roleplay" is not the same thing as
>"I don't like your role."

Yes, but both of those will result in 500exp and nobody else reading it.
In the case of the former, that's as it should be. In the latter case, not so much. But at this point I can't think of any solution really so I'll just shut up.

>This is a general/plural you; I don't think I could name any
>of your characters.

Well, that's a relief in the sense of not revealing myself. On the other hand, that's a pretty sad state of affairs for someone who's played on and off for 15 years or whatever it's been. I'm guessing you'll notice my current character if I ever get a chance to actually play it.

...I could care less who reads my roles. I write long roles when I have good ideas for more content, and short roles when I don't.

Just because you won't get a set amount of XP shouldn't change the way you write your roles.


If the IMMs don't like long roles, that is their perogative, but it shouldn't stop you from doing what you think is right.

Basically, don't play for rewards. Play for yourself.

...empowerment.

...but then again my empowerment experience (only one empowered char in about 8-10 heroes) was ####ING awesome, to be honest. It was awesome having that "guidance" from a functual RP standpoint and from an admin standpoint to let me know I was 'doing well'. Plus, empowerment allows for more meaningful interactions (IMHO) in that it's usually a given that most of the best roleplayers in CF are IMMs. So, I kinda disagree, because my Healer empowered by Khasotholas was nothing but good times (even when Grurk would sleep me and send gechoes telling people to come kill me hahahahah), at least until Khaso deleted on me

Though to be truthful that really drove my RP in a cool direction.

Basically I somewhat agree about empowerment generally being a coolest kid on the block process to a certain extent, which other characters (such as random BATTLE warrior #23) don't have to conform to.

If you're the dude I think you are, you probably should have paid, I don't know, any attention to what your would-be empowering imm was about. And maybe not just prayed from Galadon for the first few days.

I'm just saying.