After a long hiatus without playing much, I've recently started playing again and came across a few things that struck me as less friendly than they needed to be. Some small. Some bigger.

1. Instead of crumbling newbie gear immediately upon dropping, have it crumble only after remaining untouched on the ground for long enough for a confused newbie to sort through his overflowing inventory of soft leather. Especially haversacks (which would be great to refer to as "sack" instead of "leather").

2. Gain Convert Gain Revert. Why are these still in the game? Get rid of train points. Instead, give people 10 additional practices every 5 levels. "train con" now requires 10 practices instead of 1 train. Easy, intuitive fix.

3. More skills and spells added, additional practices lacking. Is it even possible for a Fire giant Ranger to practice all of the skills 2-3 times and still max out stats? If he's supposed to pick and choose between them (as some other online RPGs do), shouldn't they be closer on par balance wise? I love that there have been lots of new skills added, but it's frustrating to not be able to practice them. Maybe Observation, Commerce, and these types of skills can start off at 75%? Maybe Knee and Elbow can be combined into one skill that automatically decides which one to do for you? Maybe if someone is out of practices they can elect to "forget" a skill and gain practices? I don't know the best solution. Vets might know which skills to skip and which to only spend one practice with, but this is another area of unneeded complexity. It seems that practicing skills should be easy as pie, even if learning when and how to use them remains a steeper learning curve.

4. Long lasting maledictions. Do we need stuff like plague or forget or deafen to last 20+ ticks? Or is this some contribution to the game experience that I'm missing? To me, that's a long time to be sitting there spamming where. I'd rather be pking, rping, or actually exploring.

5. How about giving a small bit of cabal xp (100?) for pledging a cabal?

Changes I like: I love edges and obs/explore xp! I really do. It's also very nice they improve lore faster. I like the commerce and obs skills and random quest additions sprucing up old areas. Nice! More regular, useful wands in places. Cool! In my humble opinion, non-ABS wand knowledge should be encouraged to be shared just like other gear (meaning: dioxides). I love that thieves can now have a clearer idea of what they're picking. I like the new compare and improved compare. They're actually useful now. Sweet! I like the color options.

Oh, and I like the Diku maps. *innocent*

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

1. I kinda agree with this, though after it happens once you learn. It's not a major issue. Maybe instead of coding anything into the object, have one of the mobs at the academy recommend buying a better bag.

2. I like this, and specifically Valg's take on it. But again, it's never really bothered me, as a newbie on any MUD. If someone can't figure it out, thats exactly what the help files, the academy, and newbie channel are for.

3. I believe somewhere in Newbiedom, and almost every class FAQ on Dio, they explicitly tell newbies to try humans for this and other reasons. I completely agree with the others that playing low-int/high-str races should come with that penalty. And yet again, if a newbie decides to go ahead and play a more difficult race anyway, they are more than welcome to use the helpfiles to figure out which skills to use.

4. Who says you can't rp while maladicted? It's easy: "gtell Stay back, this disease is contagious!" And if you've been maladicted, you obviously were involved in pk or exploring recently, though not necessarily with much success. Do more than spam where.. seek out a healer (npc or pc), perhaps?

5. Like Pen said, easily abused.. though, maybe there could be a way to earn xp from interviews? (maybe it does already, idk)

Some great ideas, and I do agree with your reasoning in that there is a very steep learning curve to this game. On the other hand, I don't think making the game easier so everyone can have fun and play nice is the answer. A lot of things could be made easier just by finding ways to share information and open dialogue in character.. I mean, that is the definition of a guild afterall.

>2. I like this, and specifically Valg's take on it. But again,
>it's never really bothered me, as a newbie on any MUD. If
>someone can't figure it out, thats exactly what the help
>files, the academy, and newbie channel are for.

I have in mind people who might be completely new to MUDs entirely. Maybe they play RPGs or WoW or something like that. Most games today have streamlined the tutorial process so people are getting into the game and playing quickly. CF is still somewhat "old school" with regards to a thick manual on how to play. The less things (especially the unintuitive things) that are unnecessarily confusing and complex, the better.



>3. I believe somewhere in Newbiedom, and almost every class
>FAQ on Dio, they explicitly tell newbies to try humans for
>this and other reasons. I completely agree with the others
>that playing low-int/high-str races should come with that
>penalty. And yet again, if a newbie decides to go ahead and
>play a more difficult race anyway, they are more than welcome
>to use the helpfiles to figure out which skills to use.

Compare the helpfile for a skill like Parry and Thrust. If you've never played a MUD before, never seen a log, never been to Dio's, how do you know which skill is better?

Of course the easy answer is, "You just have to learn" but what I'm trying to say is that we can help them learn it more easily while playing their first character. Like I said in the first post, if you've played many other computer games, especially RPGs, they generally follow a very different approach to characters learning skills than as things are right now in CF. If they're limited in how many they can learn, the skills are roughly balanced. In my experience in games where skills aren't balanced, the higher level skills and spells are almost always more powerful.

I'm not saying we have to let everyone learn every skill. I'm ok with that never happening. But at least make it so it is slightly more clear which skills are essential and which are more for flavor or have a more limited usefulness. Does that make sense?

We like to say CF (and MUDs) are losing players to graphics. But how many are we losing due to an obscenely steep learning curve and outdated game designs? Have you ever tried sharing CF with other gamers? How many want to sit down for hours and hours to learn the basics of how to play and try to get past the many unintuitive stumbling blocks? How can we streamline it?

There's a difference between making the game "easy" and making the game "easy to play". Chess is easy to play, but can have an enormous amount of depth and strategy relative to how few pieces are involved. Ever heard the phrase, "Easy to learn. Hard to master." IMO, that's what CF should strive to be. It's already got the "hard to master" part. Just needs to be easier to learn.


>
>4. Who says you can't rp while maladicted? It's easy: "gtell
>Stay back, this disease is contagious!" And if you've been
>maladicted, you obviously were involved in pk or exploring
>recently, though not necessarily with much success. Do more
>than spam where.. seek out a healer (npc or pc), perhaps?

It's hard to RP with deafen or insanity... and I've actually killed myself on more than one occasion because I didn't want to sit plagued and recovering forever. It's boring. Then again, maybe I'm in the minority on this one and most people get lots of enjoyment from these.

>
>5. Like Pen said, easily abused.. though, maybe there could
>be a way to earn xp from interviews? (maybe it does already,
>idk)

Fair enough. Shouldn't be difficult to make it so you only get the bonus the first time you pledge with a character. That would get rid of the abuse.

>
>Some great ideas, and I do agree with your reasoning in that
>there is a very steep learning curve to this game. On the
>other hand, I don't think making the game easier so everyone
>can have fun and play nice is the answer. A lot of things
>could be made easier just by finding ways to share information
>and open dialogue in character.. I mean, that is the
>definition of a guild afterall.

Some of the cabals do this quite a bit. Others are a bit more on the loner side of things. Have you joined a cabal like the Fortress or Nexus or Tribunal or Battle or Herald?

I like the idea of sharing more information IC. Got any ideas on how to do that?

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

> On MUDs being outdated, "old school", etc.
Personally, I think that in itself is part of the appeal. Honestly I can't even remember how I got started on MUDs (Playing Dragons Legends and Lore, and Dawn of Empires back in 98 or 99) And I think changing a MUD, marketing towards the main gamer base whose brains have already been conditioned by graphics-intensive games is a lost cause. But thats just my opinion, and theres probably a good reason why I'm not in marketing.

> On low-int races
My comment about not recommending non-human races wasn't just about Dio.. I could be wrong, but I thought in the newbie helpfiles they even recommend humans for first time players of just about any class. But anyway, worst comes to worst they practice a skill they dont use much or at all.. is that really so bad? They'll know better next time just like everyone else. At most, maybe some helpfiles need to be more informative on that note.. and if you know which ones specifically, make some recommendations. And if I remember right, some things are coded not to let you practice them.. like detect invis for Svirfs.. and probably detect hidden for duergs.

and i dont really understand your bit on parry vs thrust. they do completely different things and thats apparent from the helpfile. I'm also pretty sure they come at different levels, but hypothetically, if you had to choose between practicing one or the other.. the helpfile does a good job of making that a decision between defense, and offense. plus if your warrior is a sword/whip spec.. that rules out thrust (which, according to helpfile, is only useful for spears and certain polearms) .. also rules it out if you don't have the strength to effectively use such big weapons. (they might add to the parry file that its based on strength, too, though) .. for the longest time i just assumed it was dexterity.

> maladicted rp
It may not be your ideal situation for the character, but just roll with it. I think insanity (never even heard of that one actually.. im rather newbish myself) would be hella fun to roleplay.

> pledge
Pretty sure you can only pledge once, maybe twice. Not sure though. But the point was someone who intends to be uncabaled could just pledge to cabal and immediately pledge none just to get the XP. Personally I think it'd be kinda fun to give cabal leaders the ability to grant limited XP for a characters induction interview.

> sharing info ic
Hm.. I've only ever been in Nexus, and I remember them being pretty good about giving technique advice. As far as ideas for how to share info like that.. its kind of a no brainer.. but as an example.. this is how I learned to use a weapon while praticing invoker spells..

I was sitting at the guild, and another invoker came in.. i kept casting, we chatted for a bit..
he looked at me, noticed i wasn't wielding anything and was like.. you might learn better with a weapon in your hand. At first I had no idea what he was talking about.. it didnt make any sense to me. But he explained that for "some reason" learning with a weapon is much easier. I thanked him, bought him a drink.. and continued with my casting.

The Inn would also be a great place to ask for advise, or ask a hero of your characters guild.

..

I will add though, it was only recently when I asked about it on Dio forums that I understood about the aura/barrier/shield wands. I heard of them before on the forums but never really knew what it meant. Never heard about it in character.. and thats with me playing almost exclusively mages, and having been in Nexus. Looking back, I didn't have to ask on Dio.. I could have RPd it and asked another mage, a Nexun or Herald.

I remember the first time I lost everything due to the haversack crumbling. I did some quests, made some coin, and then spent it all on 2 potions of return and a couple hundred newbie breadz, put them all in my newbie haversack. Later I got the leather backpack and did 'get all haversack;put all backpack' well, it put the entire haversack into the backpack. Kind of a pain, but I realized if I drop the haversack I can 'get all haversack;put all backpack' and spam it. I dropped my haversack and lost all my breadz and potions. I was not happy.

So if we could at least change it so the haversack will stick around for a couple ticks after being dropped, that would probably save others from my headache.

For number 2, I think changing the coding on 'train' to subtract 10 practices would be easier code-wise than trying to change the 'practice' command to allow 'practice con'. That comment is meant for Valg BTW.

I already chimed in on number 3 below.

Number 4, I agree that it is tiresome to wait out 60 hour plagues, but that is the point. It makes you vulnerable for a long period of time and you have to make sure to hide well while you wait it out.

Number 5, I can live with, but not sure how well it would work. People who plan on being uncaballed would pledge random cabal and then pledge none just to get the imm xp.

For the most part I like the ideas you presented here and hope some get implemented.

Pen

The other forum had a thread where a newbie was asking about why his Create Water had not improved in two hours of practice. It was pointed out he likely wasn't wielding a weapon he had practiced. Is it possible to update this so the caster is informed that they cannot improve at a skill if they're not wielding a weapon they know? Kinda how it is when you're in a shrine and you're informed that you can't learn there?

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,839788,839788#msg-839788

Thanks.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

That crashed the mud constantly, so I took it back out. I looked into why it crashed for hours and couldn't figure it out. It's on my list somewhere to revisit.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

More skills and spells added, additional practices lacking. Is it even possible for a Fire giant Ranger to practice all of the skills 2-3 times and still max out stats? If he's supposed to pick and choose between them (as some other online RPGs do), shouldn't they be closer on par balance wise? I love that there have been lots of new skills added, but it's frustrating to not be able to practice them.

It's roughly as unfair as an elf ranger having a low STR. Elf ranger loves that there are lots of new weapons in the game, but it's frustrating to not be able to wield many of them.

If anything, INT/WIS/CHR still lag well behind STR/DEX/CON in desirability-- people don't really try to maledict them, often leave them below max (with gear making up the difference), don't gear for them, etc. If you also degraded the utility of having more skills at higher levels, they'd be nigh-worthless.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>More skills and spells added, additional practices
>lacking. Is it even possible for a Fire giant Ranger to
>practice all of the skills 2-3 times and still max out stats?
>If he's supposed to pick and choose between them (as some
>other online RPGs do), shouldn't they be closer on par balance
>wise? I love that there have been lots of new skills added,
>but it's frustrating to not be able to practice them.
>
>It's roughly as unfair as an elf ranger having a low STR. Elf
>ranger loves that there are lots of new weapons in the game,
>but it's frustrating to not be able to wield many of them.

Let me take it a step further, if I may. I would think a lot of newbies playing don't have the "appropriate" stat high enough when they need it. For example, newbies are the ones regularly leveling up with 17 wisdom and practicing skills with low intelligence. They're probably the ones running around not having practiced all the basic weapons, and maybe not Parry or Dodge. How are they to know what is important and what isn't? After all, if they're playing a melee class (as is often recommended) Sword and Dagger are level 1 along with Parry or Dodge, while Elbow and Knee are higher level. In most RPGs, the higher level the ability, the better and more useful it is. Maybe, following your suggestion on Nepenthe's thread, we should re-evaluate at what level skills become available and move all the flavor skills or those with limited or niche usefulness to level 1 and move the more powerful level 1 skills up in level (at least to level 2 or 3)? Maybe let every class pick what weapon to start with and they get that one at 75% and move all the weapons to level 3?

Maybe it would help to make it easier to roll an "appropriate" stat, like an 18 Wisdom and 17 Intelligence during character creation? That way, we can tell newbies to avoid low int races until they figure out what the skills and spells do.

Like I said, I don't have a good, easy solution to this, but I worry about matching player expectations and it's an area where CF differs from RPGs and MMORPGs providing an additional (and unnecessary) learning curve. I can appreciate and understand wanting to have more skills available than low intelligence races can practice, but in my opinion if this is the intention then the skills need to be more closely balanced power-wise or there needs to be an intuitive way to figure out what is good and what is less useful.

For example, in Guild Wars there are hundreds of skills available but you can only take 8 with you. Sometimes players compete with each other by giving each other a randomly selected pool of skills from which they must make a build and fight each other. And it works. It's fun. The skills are closely enough balanced that it works. Can you imagine doing that in CF? Certain skills in CF are vital and essential to stand a chance and they're haphazardly mixed up among Thrust and Feint. I'm not trying to knock those skills--I like that they're a choice--but there needs to be some kind of distinction between them and Sword and Parry if you plan to keep practices limited among characters running around without enough INT/WIS.


>If anything, INT/WIS/CHR still lag well behind STR/DEX/CON in
>desirability-- people don't really try to maledict them, often
>leave them below max (with gear making up the difference),
>don't gear for them, etc. If you also degraded the utility of
>having more skills at higher levels, they'd be
>nigh-worthless.

To me, this sounds like it could be a separate issue. If these are nigh-worthless, aside from the utility of having more skills at higher levels, then it makes sense that people don't max them out or try to maledict them. But I somewhat disagree with this. The general advantage of INT/WIS to me is not more skills, it's faster learning rates and more "train hp". Gnomes have lots of hps. However, I digress.

Personally, right now I think the harm to CF from newbies improper practicing is greater than the imbalance between STR/DEX/CON and INT/WIS/CHR, but it would be great if there was a solution that didn't impact or even enhanced this disparity.


>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

Just an awesome game.

2 is comming out this year.

>Personally, right now I think the harm to CF from newbies
>improper practicing is greater than the imbalance between
>STR/DEX/CON and INT/WIS/CHR, but it would be great if there
>was a solution that didn't impact or even enhanced this
>disparity.

By "enhanced this disparity" I mean take them into consideration and possibly lightly address additional issues you see.

Sometimes I use words wrongly and don't proofread enough. Bleh.

I'm not a coder so I'll start off admitting I have no idea if this is feasible or even possible. But I agree with Valg that dumber races should suffer the penalty of not knowing every skill, and I definately don't like the "forget" idea, kinda lets the char change his reportoire for each situation.

So my idea would be that when a char (think newbie) types skill (or spell or whatever) and gets the long list of skills and what level they get them at, perhaps the mud could include something like:

1 parry (100% of your class practice this skill)
5 armor (5% of your class practice this spell)

Kinda give the newbies an idea of what is used more by the vets. Not sure if the mud can even keep track of those stats or not, but thought I would throw it out there.

***edited a typo***

2. Gain Convert Gain Revert. Why are these still in the game? Get rid of train points. Instead, give people 10 additional practices every 5 levels. "train con" now requires 10 practices instead of 1 train. Easy, intuitive fix.

This is a really great idea, by the way. Gain is one of those commands that veterans consider essential, but tends to trip up newbies. It might be more intuitive to just give everyone +2 pracs per level (vs. +10 every 5), remove Gain and Train, and 'price' various options out at the trainer in practice sessions. It also simplies 'score' a little.

Implementation-wise, it's a bit of a bear, because the Practice command is already very complex, but if we can find an easy route to merging them, I think this is an easy call.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

n/t

>2. Gain Convert Gain Revert. Why are these still in the
>game? Get rid of train points. Instead, give people 10
>additional practices every 5 levels. "train con" now requires
>10 practices instead of 1 train. Easy, intuitive fix.
>
>This is a really great idea, by the way. Gain is one
>of those commands that veterans consider essential, but tends
>to trip up newbies. It might be more intuitive to just give
>everyone +2 pracs per level (vs. +10 every 5), remove
>Gain and Train, and 'price' various options out
>at the trainer in practice sessions. It also simplies 'score'
>a little.
>
Along this line of thought, is there ANY reason why bards should have to rehearse songs, versus practice them? I haven't even played one seriously like...ever, but that's one that's not very intuitive. Everyone else practices their skills no matter whether it's skill, spell, or prayer, why do bards have to rehearse instead of practice?

Sing makes a certain sense, as they're not casting, communing, or just "using" a skill, but rehearse I don't get.

With skills, you practice the skill and use the skill command to check your percentage. With songs, it's the one command rehearse. Whenever I play an arial bard, there's at least one occasion I end up putting two practices into a song by mistake because of this.

Not sure what you were thinking with 2 and 3 though.

Like, is gain convert/gain revert that hard

And part of the crappiness of playing a low int char is you have to determine what you want to practice and what you don't (IE A fire sword spec probably isn't going to waste practices with knee/elbow/kick/shield block, but that arial dagger spec might).

>Like, is gain convert/gain revert that hard

It's not that it's hard to do, it's more of a matter that it's obscure and unintuitive.



>And part of the crappiness of playing a low int char is you
>have to determine what you want to practice and what you don't
> IE A fire sword spec probably isn't going to waste practices
>with knee/elbow/kick/shield block, but that arial dagger spec
>might).

Thanks for the reply. Please see response to Valg coming up.


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker