Since you fixed the group leader code and such regarding charisma, is there any chance the racial limits on charisma might be looked at? Given the typical range of limits being from 16-25, yet racial limits for almost all of the races are right smack in the 16-19 range. Only humans, elves, and wood-elves have maximums in the 21-23 range, while orcs and minotaurs are 13 and 11 respectively.

Perhaps it is intentional, but for a stat that so often has really done little more for characters than AC has for so long, it feels more that it's just never really been paid attention to.

1) This would have a huge impact on bards and conjurers.

2) I don't think arbitrarily raising CHR across the board would do very much, especially when we'd have to re-visit the existing formulae that do use it and re-balance them for a new baseline.

3) If anything, CHR has a wider spread (11-23) than any other ability right now. I don't see why it's important that someone has a maximum 24 CHR, but not important that no one has a maximum 16 STR.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

To start, I'd like to say I wasn't proposing just raising them, but just a question of re-evaluating them.

>1) This would have a huge impact on bards and conjurer.

Agreed. I'm not online a super amount these days, but it's always seemed that those two classes tend towards exclusively human/half-breeds, with maybe an elf conjie or wood-elf bard in there. I'll admit I've actually seen 2 or 3 gnome/svirf conjies lately, but I can't remember the last time I've seen a non-rager arial bard.

>2) I don't think arbitrarily raising CHR across the board
>would do very much, especially when we'd have to re-visit the
>existing formulae that do use it and re-balance them for a new
>baseline.

As I mentioned, my thought was more..."do the current values all make sense?" What specifically is the charisma stat defined to be judging? One can probably guess why duergar are less well received than some races, but why are dark-elves not considered to be able to be charismatic? What is it about gnomes & svirfnebli that makes them typically more well received than an arial or felar?

I just feel that looking at this stat doesn't really say anything about the race in most cases. Even the helpfile on races has NO mention of charismatic races in any way. Of course, the fact that charisma doesn't have a huge impact on the majority of characters could be part of that. Even a mage can use extra dex for carrying space, or malleability, etc. Charisma just doesn't come across as being THAT useful often.

>3) If anything, CHR has a wider spread (11-23) than any other
>ability right now. I don't see why it's important that
>someone has a maximum 24 CHR, but not important that no one
>has a maximum 16 STR.

It has a wider spread, yes, but only in that the extremes are more extreme, while the majority is within two points of each other?

Ultimately, I think I just feel that charisma IS often considered one of the least important stats unless you're a bard or conjurer. Similar to how you've revamped less useful spells or abilities (armor spell, ac, etc), seemed a thought to bring up.

As an aside, it always felt like the only other class I'd ever consider charisma was paladins. Do they actually have anything that charisma makes a noticable difference, or is that just old D&D lore coming through?

Anyways, I appreciate the quick response, faster than it took me to realize people were paying attention to it! Hopefully my counter-arguments are taken more as discussion and possible ideas, than any sort of griping. Thanks!

Charisma affects wrath, if I remember correctly.

I personally do find charisma very useful. Enough to max it now that I've realised what it does.

Even a mage can use extra dex for carrying space, or malleability, etc. Charisma just doesn't come across as being THAT useful often.

Inventory is the big perk. Also, keep in mind that all characters can Evade, and DEX exerts the primary (and very non-linear) effect there.

That said, the difference between a 'strong' leader choice (high CHR, compatible alignment/ethos, compatible race choice, etc.) and a 'weak' one should be sizable enough with these fixes to care about.

Now that I have a better handle on the guts of the morale code, I do plan to look at the magnitude of its various impacts and make sure they seem proportioned correctly. My impression is that whoever wrote the original helpfile had bigger plans for it, but didn't follow through on at least some of them. CHR swings Morale more now, so if Morale has its intended impact, I think people will care more about CHR.

As an aside, it always felt like the only other class I'd ever consider charisma was paladins. Do they actually have anything that charisma makes a noticable difference, or is that just old D&D lore coming through?

Champions in particular.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You said that evil-evil morale bonus is less than good-good morale bonus.

Given that good aligns will tend to have the charisma advantage over evils, is it intended that there's a double impact here? (good good morale bonus plus good races also tending to higher charisma).

1) Evil in some ways came out ahead in this set of changes; for example, orcs with their charisma do better than before.

2) Evil tends to have advantages in other areas of morale. Even given this, an Adarmar is still a much "stronger" group leader morale-wise than a Nnaeshuk. (No offense to Nnaeshuk -- this is generally true of almost all Fort leaders vs. almost all Emperors.)

3) Overall, morale seems like an area to me where, thematically, good should come out ahead of evil ordinarily.

Just wondered if there was a double effect when the intention was for a single one.

Does pk ability count for morale then?

I completely agree with #3. What about making CHR and morale more of an influence in skills and spells in the game (if they don't already, as they might):

- Warcry (seems morale could be involved)
- Demoralize (+CHR helps)
- Demand (+CHR helps)
- Nightwalker power (+CHR helps)
- Beastcall power (+CHR helps)
- Call of the Wild (+CHR helps)
- Some Beastmaster skills (+CHR helps)
- Some Animist spells (+CHR helps)

Stuff like that.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker