Is there anything that prevents iceball from draining moves, other than frostshield?

Some may call me... Tim?

Good question! Funny how APs have an area effect ice-based nuke that not only does better damage than cone of cold, but also drains moves, when they are not a pure elemental caster class like invokers!

Invokers have too many spells that overlap in terms of use I think. I'd love to see invokers get some (more) utility like iceball. It won't be that huge a buff considering invokers already have quicksand to trap people, the problem is word of recall.

Then again invokers are so good at surviving, so the argument might be that they are already too strong... lore-wise it seems inconsistent that APs have a better area-wide ice spell. Bit like how lashes of the slave is way better than the warrior damage-spam spec skill with whip (sting).

(My invokers were Lyrathuriel, Kiel, Maldaris btw. Given the spell spamming invokers require I didn't find them the least bit more powerful than other classes like conjurer, warrior, paladin.)

Change the name and flavor of the spell to reflect demonic forces being conjured. Have those same demonic energies be responsible for the movement drain.

NEW NAME: Breath of Baalduru

You throw your arms wide, calling forth an explosion of unholy frost!



etc etc etc

That would fix the rp aspect of it, not so much the fact AP's get a better ice spell than invokers. They do get a few other benefits, physical and magical. I think I read somewhere a long while ago the imm's talking about how they like having a class that people have to team up against, but isn't that what liches are for? Why are both powerhouse classes on team evil?

Not saying it's easy to be said powerhouse, but for the people who can do it, this encourages them to be evil which.. is bad for new players. Good alignment is a good way to learn this game, when you have all the experienced players playing evil, it's hard.

>That would fix the rp aspect of it, not so much the fact AP's
>get a better ice spell than invokers.

I don't see why that's a problem. Invokers have other things, it's not really a balance problem. There's no reason an invoker balance-wise needs to have the strongest elemental effects in the game. Making it demonic in nature fixes the RP.

>class that people have to team up against, but isn't that what
>liches are for? Why are both powerhouse classes on team evil?

Also Paladins. A highly juiced paladin isn't as deathful, but is real tough to kill.

>Not saying it's easy to be said powerhouse, but for the people
>who can do it, this encourages them to be evil which.. is bad
>for new players. Good alignment is a good way to learn this
>game, when you have all the experienced players playing evil,
>it's hard.

Experienced players play evil because it's better in a lot of ways. There really are very few high level necros and aps floating around. They're popular at low levels, but it's not the presence of necros and APs that causes there to be more evil than good PCs.

I agree with you on most points, except the point of game balance.

There are more tough paladins than extremely tough liches or ap's, but there are no extremely tough paladins. It's not easy to pull off a powerhouse lich or ap, probably easier to pull off a tough paladin. But this can be equated to, it's easier to own a lemonade stand than it is to own a successful computer company. Which would you rather try for?

I never said there more evil PCs than good, it seems to go back and forth, what I was saying is that there are only evil utter badasses. Another thing I agree with is that evil is better in a lot of ways, so why do they get the best classes as well? But once again, stating from personal experience, it's hard to pull off a tough ap or necro. I still think good and neutral should get that chance.

I shouldn't talk as though I know, I'm not a skilled player. Still, as a inexperienced player, this is how it feels. I can put up a fight against other classes, lose most, but against high lvl ap's and necros, running is my best option.

If you have equal levels of external dr (a/b/s mainly) you should be able to deal more overall damage. Then what you need is saves to prevent being entirely neutered (deafen/forget).

If you can't find a/b/s (sleeks or otherwise) and they can, then you're screwed, but that's just the risk you take playing a mage.

With defiance, get back to us on that one.

Especially if you are:
elf
2h dedicant
faith, temperance, retribution
defiance wielder
good saves
2 periapts

You will find that you can send the bad guys scurrying 9 times out of 10, if not more. Ultimately they may kill you more than you kill them, but you can still accomplish stuff without them being able to stop you.

It's very rare, but it can happen. So good has its equivalent.

For neutrals, you have druids. Whilst not on a par with paladins or liches (although actually very good at dealing with paladins), druids can be sick too. I'm relatively confident that no one has yet shown us their upper potential (excluding Amora, since that was buggy and that made them look misleadingly good).

It's that there's a ton of different pigeon holes in this game. People can be good at everything, just not everything with one character. I might be frustrated as a new'ish player, but I wouldn't want there to be less rewards for experienced players, so I'll just quit whining. It is a steep learning curve on this game, but no other mud touches it so I'll just keep learning.

You're not considering all the other nice #### in the invoker toolbox that an AP can't even touch. Hell, sticking just with the ice path...

-Iceshards
-Iceneedles
-FROSTSHIELD (iceball = frostshield's bitch)
-Shield of Ice


Iceball is a great spell, but the problem seems to be that right now the spell is strictly in the realm of "ice spells," rather than demonic frost. Therefore it makes little sense when you consider that invokers are supposed to be masters of the elements. We get all that. However, the change simply needs to be cosmetic to make it fit properly into the grand scheme. Functionally it's crucial to an AP and shouldn't be screwed with (remember, it's already been downgraded from what it once was).

asdf

I pretty much always assumed iceball was evilish/demonic in nature, FWIW.

...Tossing a "touch of the demonic" into most/all AP spells would serve to solidify the class and make it look a bit less like a patchwork of other class abilities. For right now it could just be in the way it looks, until they get some kind of updated functionality to differentiate them further from everyone else's stuff.

Remember when necromancer spells got that flavor upgrade? It was, and still is, awesome. It adds so much to the enjoyability of playing the class.

Other affects that help resist cold are a help.

Making your save is a help.

so you reduce damage taken from the spell you get fewer moves saped.

Well that doesn't seem to hold with what I've experienced. Last time I dealt with iceball, I had full ABS, stone, and ethos protection against opposite ethos. I was taking hits and injures from iceball and still losing 50% moves each casting.

It's about resisting cold specifically to limit the move loss, not about resisting general damage.

Implementor adjudication may be required.

It's not like I didn't already post on this thread.

Saw the new post, and your post yesterday wasn't all highlighted and fancy like so I didn't see it.

Whoops!

With my last dwarf healer I had -105 saves and aegis cold and still lost moves from kharguln every time

Yup. You also lost HP every time; it's just a matter of how much.

Ah, fairy muff