Hey members of CF,

You've probably heard something like this already to ad nauseam: I've just made my umpteenth character and I need help on how to better improve myself from punching bag to slightly bothersome threat.

I've received numerous tips on how to better improve my character on what class/race I should build so here I'd like to go over some of the builds I have played, the tips received in general and for specific classes. So here goes:

Arial assassin: Last lvl: 26
Dex and int make it ideal for skill gaining and fighting but I was told I need serious work in defense: Last build had low parry, dodge, and shield block (so I was told: 85%, 92%, and 78% respectively with 1/3 weight and sword and shield)

Human Tramsnuter: Last lvl: 51
Got this one to hero rank (IMHO THE character that single handedly destroyed the CF servers by reaching the hero rank!)

but could not pull off any PK's since people knew how to resist them (mostly neuro) and I knew no other alternative and lost patience with the build for my lack of ABS insight.

Human ranger: Last lvl: 20
Animist build with 23 int that fought badly against mobs most likely due to my defenses and gear (geared for +hit and +dam as much as a semi-newb could with mediocre sword and shield) but against "Perfect match" and "few blows" my hp was often knocked to 85% and below.

*Every race capable* invoker: Last lvl: 26, (4 to 7 path)
Spamming was boring to the point I often left it to spam yet didn't get the 2% skill point I needed, was killed VERY often by lag moves I dunno how to counter; how to solo to get to the lvl that has the shield to counter

General Tips:
Get used to losing - losing's not what bothers me, its that I seem to wind up doing the same mistakes out of spur of the moment especially in combat in which I can't seem to effectively run away or defend myself

Take logs and review them - I do take logs but most of the time it is me trying to avoid getting into fights altogether

Have the aggressive attitude to get into fights and exploring - Probably the best advice I got IMO. Always I seem to want to be the support character

Make the where command compulsive - I do but when I do see PKer's I often feel like I don't have the preps necessary to defend myself (and all the times I was right so it made my outtings a waste of time and chore-like)

Ask around and people will help - Heh. Either I ask at the worst times or people just don't like me; Had 2 characters in tribunal and fortress each, NONE of which were given answers to my questions. Period. Most of the time I asked for suggestions on places to go to get what I need then I would go preferrably alone so that I don't bother anyone. So I dunno if I got my questions asked not nicely enough or not non-noobish enough or what...


Anyways advice is deeply appreciated and welcomed! BTW I've read the guides on the Official and Unofficial forums on almost every class and still I suck ... goes to show how the audacity of stubbornness eh? :/

The first thing ever newbie should learn in the realm of PK is not killing or preping, it's geography.

I can run blind from one end of Thera to the next across the main areas. This let's me escape 99 percent of my PK's.

Toggle your color roomname so you know when you cross certain areas and "check points" and maybe add the wilderness toggle to your prompt.

Then learn how to collect coins. Gold is the best prep in the game. You should never leave Galadon without a return potion and a potion of flying.
(If you have shakey hands maybe set up an alias that speedwalks you to an out of the way hiding spot in case you are blind. Be sure you HEAL REFRESH if you are low on moves.)

The next thing you need to do is get a golf bag. By this I mean carry around as many Vuln exploiting weapons as you need to cover them. (Wrath, iron, mithril, acid, blunt, light covers most but watch your weight!)

Tip: Never fight a class that can blind while hungry. Chicken and waterskins are preps for Necromancers.

Tip: Something I've learned, don't chse a necromancer who flees from you. It doesn't mean you're winning the fight!

Cultivate the mindset that surviving is winning and don't worry about #### talkers who call you a coward. It's a lazy way for them to hunt shallow minded people who return to prove they aren't a coward.

Got jumped? Run, hide, cut and paste the fight for review while you heal.

Not sure if you're a match for someone? Open with murder see what happens the first round and run, hide, cut and paste.

I almost never attack a warrior assassin or ranger with the intent to kill the first fight, it's a recon.

After all that, learn to chase. Think about who they are and where they might go. Where's their recall point? They lost half their movment returning so they might be close by hiding and resting.

There is absolutly no reason what so ever to bother spamming up your skills when there's PKing to be done or groups to be had. If neither of these exsist, then by all means, spam. 85 parry and 92 dodge at 26 with an arial means one of four things, You fought unarmed, with a dagger, a staff or a spear.

Your unarmed defense coupled with Kote caltrops nerve poison and ground control should give you most fights. Your defenses will all be maxed by the time you're 35 and assassinating. What's's more, all your offensive skills should be 100 or in the 90,s or close to it just by ranking.

The percentages do increase effectivness, but not as much as paitience and percerverance.

The End.

I don't think I'm much past a Semi Newb Myself.... Haven't had a hero yet in two years. Three or so close and I probably could have taken them all the way, but lost interest for various reasons.


So the only thing I'm going to say, is read this post again. The things he said here are things most of us learn the hard way. This is a great post with some good info, some of it not so obvious(IE why you had an 85% Parry, and a 92% dodge) Haven't read many of the other posts, this was just at top so I singled him out cause he made me think again. Thanks Pro.

I consider myself a vet, and often lurk on the edges of CF with a char. Theres nothing I enjoy more than showing some n00b the ropes and giving them the tools to succeed, but my patience has its limits.

These are the ways to get me to ignore you as a normally helpful cabalmate.

Simply put, if you can't seem to help yourself, or want to help yourself. I will NOT help you.

If you seem to expect everything handed to you, with little or no forward thinking or effort.
I will NOT help you.

If every-time I take you anywhere, you promptly die/get someone else killed/get me killed because you did any of the following.
A. Were not paying any attention and didn't do XYZ skill that all you had to do was pay attention.
B. Not listening to instructions/doing pretty much exactly what I told you not to do.
C. Making me repeat things more than once or twice.
D. Didn't trust well enough to just follow the instructions and live.

If you've managed in the past to hit one of the above criteria its likely, I've never helped your char more than once. I suspect a fair number of other people, use a similar system of n00b help.

That is to say, if you can't help yourself. Or you can only help yourself to tragically die. I probably won't waste my time with you twice.

If you are clearly trying but just failing for mistakes/lack of knowledge/lack of l33tsauce, I'll probably give you a hearty nudge. (Apparently even at the risk of my own character) and I've known a fair number of other players to do the same.

Most if not all my IC questions don't pertain to holding my hands and walking around since I find that less effective at learning and I don't like being a bother to others' gameplay. At least I try not to.

Here's an example of the format of what kind of questions I ask: (have never asked these kind of questions above lvl 30)

"Hey *Character*, Ya know good place where they keep a decently sharp blade lyin' around?"

"Greeting Mighty one. I feel my combat arts not adequate enough. Any advice on some decent practice dummies?"

Again, I try to avoid the "please carry me to X place" or "get me this Y sword because I'm too low a lvl to get it"

nt

I think playing a villager is a great way to learn to fight and not rely on "preps." I would go defender if I was you as an assassin or warrior. When i was coming up in the world the Village really helped my characters be self-relient and aggressive to a point. I would honestly tell you to go with the standard build and see how it goes for you. Once you have the warrior route down you can switch it up and go into different mages.

Anyway...just my thoughts.

Standard - Cloud Giant Sword/Axe Arial dagger/(anything else)felar spear/hand

When it comes to assassin I personally recommend human because of one piece of eq. You have vanish to get out of quicksand.

Defenses are your friend and intelligent races don't take too long to get to 90%.

This is what got me going. It helped that Minalcar was around and showed me a few ropes. After that I hooked up with dev and matraien as a lackey and learned a ton from those guys.

So I guess I'd advocate two options -

Play a rager berserker warrior
Ride someone's coattails and absorb as much as possible

Play transmuter or defensive/offensive shifter.
Find your sleeks.
Rape the world (except villagers).

Arial shaman or shield paladin are nice too 'cos you dont have to worry about preps

You can ask any questions here or PMing me on Dio's (Dervish)

Okay.

Let's cease discussing how naieve you are with every class. It's not productive to what you're trying to discover.

What you need to do is pick a character you enjoyed playing, and then come back here and ask how to do it. With the following caveats:

Warriors/rangers are very gear dependent. Assassins slightly less so. Bards are somewhere in the middle and mages need at least a decent amount of HP gear. PKing with a mage as a lowbie can be a harrowing, traumatizing experience if you're not ganging people as a beginner so I'd avoid any kind of mage including transmuter.

Animists are not for PK. They can kill... assuming their opponent is retarded or you happen to be a leader in Outlander. But a beginner shouldn't touch them and even a veteran is going to find their lack of kill sealing on top of lack of offense extremely rough to deal with. The same goes for shield paladin, but only in the realm of kill sealing, not offense.

If you are going to play a ranger, that ranger needs to keep bearcharge, snare, and not be a caverndweller. Start from there and then ask. You may find it boring being stuck in wilderness areas constantly if you don't figure out how to set a snare and then do something else nearby vis while you wait so people get less wary about your snare.

Thieves can't tank without being a very specific build. They can, but you really need highly honed defense. You'll have fun with them at a low level using a thug, but you should avoid them if at all possible.

Bards are perfectly serviceable to sit in their preferred repertoire, but they require an inordinately high level to really start fighting other people. You have to know when to use the lag moves they have and sealing kills without the following three skills: apocalyptic overture (34) symphonic echoes (40, makes skills and melee attacks miss you 33% of the time) and grand nocturne (45, summons a mental attack type fiend to engage them in melee, disarm them, force them to flee and is based on their int and mental saves vs your charisma/instrument/repertoire) can get complex.

Shield block is not for PK unless you've decided you need the extra defense/want to force them to cleave the shield and they are going to stick around.

Figure out which class you enjoy. How to gear it and how to fight with it will spring from there, either from you learning how by yourself or asking the right questions on the forums. As an example, I tend to enjoy playing the three rogue classes, ranger, thief and bard the most, and conjurer as a distant fourth, while I do the worst using warrior and tend to avoid good alignments because of the irritating allies and RP with zero interest in the uber progging gear they can potentially obtain or the inordinately extreme hardon many imms seem to have for their RP.

Make use of the Arena against good PKers that are your allies. I can't stress this enough, this gives them an opportunity to tell you how to fight in a relatively safe setting and not enough people take advantage of it. It's northeast of Galadon and doesn't cost you any CON.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

>Take logs and review them - I do take logs but most of the
>time it is me trying to avoid getting into fights altogether

I think this is the best piece of advice, but let me elaborate on it slightly.

1) Log things. Ideally, get logs that include your score/equipment/inventory/skills and maybe some of the lead-up to a fight.

2) Post the logs to the log board. Ask for advice.

As detailed as you probably think your above post is, it still omits so many relevant details (that will usually be captured in a log) as to turn giving you advice into a drawn out game of 20 questions that isn't fun for you and isn't fun for the people trying to help you. For all we know, your arial assasin has a 18 dex. Or a 12% sword skill. Or isn't doing any damage. Or you're expecting a solo assassin to kill an NPC and be as unwounded as a grouped assassin with three people chewing through HP thrice as fast did. Or you're mistaken and he actually was severely overweight. Or you're fighting NPCs that use a lot of mostly unavoidable attacks like kick. Or you didn't realize that when you've seen people do it better they were healing themselves somehow.

(I can go on like this a long time.)

>Get used to losing - losing's not what bothers me, its that I
>seem to wind up doing the same mistakes out of spur of the
>moment especially in combat in which I can't seem to
>effectively run away or defend myself

The "get used to losing" thing is sort of questionable advice. In one sense, you should always expect that you're going to die some. On the other hand, once you get better, you should rarely (note: not "never") die in fights of your choosing.

The times you'll die are when you get surprised, or when RP forces you into a fight you might not otherwise have chosen (e.g. cabal raid or defense).

If you're dying all the time in fights you chose, then you're either doing something wrong (most likely: not fleeing soon enough) or you're choosing to fight people against whom you're at a big disadvantage.

>Have the aggressive attitude to get into fights and exploring
>- Probably the best advice I got IMO. Always I seem to want to
>be the support character

A big part of getting kills is finding people to kill, and knowing how to get to them (within a particular area) before they see you coming and prepare or leave.

>Ask around and people will help - Heh. Either I ask at the
>worst times or people just don't like me; Had 2 characters in
>tribunal and fortress each, NONE of which were given answers
>to my questions.

Depends on what you asked. If you were asking "where can I go spam up parry?" then yeah, that's probably not going to get answered in an IC fashion. Honestly, the best place to ask for PK device is in an OOC forum like here or Dio's.

Here's my advice:

1. Pick fights where you have a big advantage. These are nice because not only are you less likely to die, you usually don't need preps to win.

2. At least until you get better, avoid fights where you are at a big disadvantage.

3. Corollary to #1 and #2: learn how to gauge whether you'd be at an advantage or disadvantage against a given combo.

4. Corollary to #2: be willing (and able) to quaff or run away when you get surprised by someone.

5. Corollary to #4: through judicious use of the "where" command you should rarely be surprised by people you can actually see.

6. Never stack commands in a fight if you can help it.

7. In a given fight, endeavor not to start lagging your opponent too early or too late. If you think they're going to immediately flee and run away, then lagging the whole time is probably good. If you think you may not be able to beat them while using straight up lag, then use some damage/maledict moves at the beginning of the fight, then shift to lag moves if you actually start winning. Otherwise flee.

8. Always, always, always keep a return and teleport potion in your inventory, and enough gold on hand to "heal poison/disease" a couple times. If you plan to fight necros or shamans you may also want to have some other stuff too in case you get really maledicted before teleporting away.

>Arial assassin: Last lvl: 26
>Dex and int make it ideal for skill gaining and fighting but I
>was told I need serious work in defense: Last build had low
>parry, dodge, and shield block (so I was told: 85%, 92%, and
>78% respectively with 1/3 weight and sword and shield)

How did he do in pk? For low level pking, you usually just want to dual wield and lag out opponents (trip/kicks/throw) that you can out-melee.


>Human ranger: Last lvl: 20
>Animist build with 23 int that fought badly against mobs most
>likely due to my defenses and gear (geared for +hit and +dam
>as much as a semi-newb could with mediocre sword and shield)
>but against "Perfect match" and "few blows" my hp was often
>knocked to 85% and below.

How did he do in pk? Same as the assassin: try to kill with dual wielding. Shouldn't be using a shield for a melee oriented class unless you're heavily oriented toward maledictions. Maybe that is what an Animist is? I don't know.


>*Every race capable* invoker: Last lvl: 26, (4 to 7 path)
>Spamming was boring to the point I often left it to spam yet
>didn't get the 2% skill point I needed, was killed VERY often
>by lag moves I dunno how to counter; how to solo to get to the
>lvl that has the shield to counter

Why are you trying to solo level an invoker past level 15 or so?! What's the point of that?

If you want to kill people as a lowbie invoker you simply have to do a lot of damage quickly. Works best against people that can't lag you because they're either a class that can't lag yet or you're in a position to circumvent their specific lag techniques. For example, use a fly potion, cast spells that take advantage of a race's vulnerability, and attack a class that can only lag you by tripping at the low levels. Or use reduce/enlarge preps to help you get around people's bash.




>Ask around and people will help - Heh. Either I ask at the
>worst times or people just don't like me; Had 2 characters in
>tribunal and fortress each, NONE of which were given answers
>to my questions. Period. Most of the time I asked for
>suggestions on places to go to get what I need then I would go
>preferrably alone so that I don't bother anyone. So I dunno if
>I got my questions asked not nicely enough or not non-noobish
>enough or what...

People are sometimes hesitant to be overly chatty about equipment/preps in cabal chat, and I find it hard to believe that you were never given an answer to any of your questions. It works best to play a long time, get to know people in your cabal, and through the course of playing the character you learn as you group and explore together.



If you want to be a threat in lowbie pk fights, you need to engineer situations that put you at an advantage. Melee: use lag, gear for big damage, and attack people you can out melee. Magic: avoid lag, gear for health, and attack people you can kill quickly. Sometimes being a stealth class (assassin, thief, ranger) can help you create those situations more easily.

If you're looking for a one-trick pony that you can use to wipe your pk range, that's not going to be easy for a beginner. I'd focus on fights where you can have a big advantage.



Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

The problem for me is not getting into the PK fights because I mostly gauge my character by how well they do against "perfect match" or "Few killing blows" mobs (which is very poorly IMO) so I don't have any PK information since I kinda now that he would be killed.

I'm not really looking for lowbie kills for any class, its just that I have a hard time surviving when walking from point A to B; the reason I mentioned soloing was that some invoker spells can't be used unless you want to invoke the wrath of the guildmaster upon self but going to some of the necessary quiet spot were either not so quiet or landed me dead the second I stepped out of my guild (Few seconds longer if there was a Tribunal around)

For getting the preps (I know fly but no enlarge or reduce) it goes back to my problem with gear finding in general: for non-mages and non-bards I'd have to run all the way back to Alduk and spend copper and run all the way back (can't hoard them cause that hinders fighting and teammates get annoyed) I oractice lore but the rate that goes up makes me sleep more than practice the necesary defense skill and I can't really judge which is more important.

>The problem for me is not getting into the PK fights because
>I mostly gauge my character by how well they do against
>"perfect match" or "Few killing blows" mobs (which is very
>poorly IMO) so I don't have any PK information since I kinda
>now that he would be killed.
>


No, how well your character does against mobs has very little to do with how well your character will do against PCs. For example, as you've probably already noticed, PCs have a LOT less hit points than mobs do, which means PCs are going to die quick if you can unload a ton of damage on to them. Whereas even if you can unload a ton of damage on a "few killing blows" mob in 3 rounds, that mob is probably going to survive. At your stage, I'd think about this: Being able to tank over the long haul matters, in general, a lot more against mobs. Conversely, being able to deal a lot of damage, quickly, matters more against PCs.

This means that in a PK it doesn't matter whether or not you can tank for 3 rounds if you can deal enough damage to kill the other PC in 2 rounds.

It gets more complicated when you start playing classes that can't deal a ton of damage quickly, or opponents that can suck up all the damage you're dealing, or opponents that just deal out more punishment than you - but starting out, I'd follow that simple strategy.

This could be your problem right here, as your post seems to say that you didn't engage in very many PKs with your assassin because you couldn't tank very well against mobs. Instead, I'd be looking at your damage output and thinking about how few hit points different character classes have.


>I'm not really looking for lowbie kills for any class, its
>just that I have a hard time surviving when walking from point
>A to B;


Well, the easiest way to survive is to know how to get lowbie kills. That way, you're either the PKiller, or know how to avoid dying to the PKiller. So whether you're looking for them or not, it's important to know how to get them... unless you just want to rank through as fast as you can But then you won't learn!

Actually I didn't know that. :/

All I know is that I survive less longer than many other adventurers of similar class and lvl against mobs. One example is when I was traveling as a human survivalist forester with the usual semi-newb hit dam gear (chokers, charred bracer, bronze belt etc.) and with a svirfnebli ranger of equal lvl, gear but using axes, me with sword and shield. Two greater trolls one after the other put me in yellow, 5 greater trolls put svirf at 75%. Most likely its because of defenses but clearly theres something i'm not seeing that I should.

Because wilderness time really really REALLY factors into how well you defend.

Eh... that's not true in all cases.

But in the trolls example he put out, it most definitely is.

At least, to my limited (compared to you at least) knowledge of the game, that is.

If Wilderness Familiarity isn't in play, it probably isn't relevant.

Huh, my in-game testing didn't really show that out, then again RNG at those type of low levels doesn't lend itself to really testing something like that out.

Thanks though!

Really hard to say what were the main factors in his anecdotal example without having more information. Could have been svirf stoneskin, the con and +hp gear, or maybe something like to parry the trolls you need to practice hand-to-hand and the human didn't. Who knows.

Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

That would be a large part of it.

Svirfneblin also dodge better than humans with 20 dex (if that was the case) even though they too have 20 dex.

I believe, jusdging buy the way you write here, we have travelled before. There is a particular player I would run into in the past in various incarnations that never seemed to practice some of his skills or use gear to max stats, or who would use two practice sessions with an arial or gnome etc.

If this is you I had made many in game references to this but sometimes they would get very defensive.

Keep in mind some RP advice may be hidden under RP.

Rathgar for instance, "why the fark would I want you breathin Hamsah air with me fark face?? ...FArk off!"

He just told you something but it's up to you to see it.

>The problem for me is not getting into the PK fights because
>I mostly gauge my character by how well they do against
>"perfect match" or "Few killing blows" mobs (which is very
>poorly IMO) so I don't have any PK information since I kinda
>now that he would be killed.

I'd like to echo what he said as it is an important point: What % of health you're at after fighting an NPC is a rather poor indication of how well you'll do in PK, especially when comparing different classes and races. The best way is to go fight, look at what people are doing to beat you, and try to imitate their tactics to succeed too.



>For getting the preps (I know fly but no enlarge or reduce) it
>goes back to my problem with gear finding in general: for
>non-mages and non-bards I'd have to run all the way back to
>Alduk and spend copper and run all the way back (can't hoard
>them cause that hinders fighting and teammates get annoyed) I
>oractice lore but the rate that goes up makes me sleep more
>than practice the necesary defense skill and I can't really
>judge which is more important.

Was trying to give examples. Like a transmuter can cast enlarge at a pretty low level, and that will make it harder for normal sized people to bash and makes fighting them less dangerous. It's good you know where fly potions are. You don't have to keep fly up 24/7, but it is useful to carry around ten or so for when you know you're going into a fights against someone who can trip you. More if you plan on fighting a lot.

You don't have to prep to fight. It is about knowing your enemy and what they're going to try to do to beat you. Don't have any way of mitigating a giant's bash and that bash is going to kill you? Don't fight them. Find an opponent that you match up well against. That's what the people killing you are doing. See a thief and have a fly potion handy? Quaff it and attack hard. Don't roleplay the badass guy who kills absolutely everyone he meets. There aren't many of those in CF. Roleplay the smart tactician who picks his fights wisely and tries to live to fight another day. CF is a little bit like a very complex version of paper, rock, scissors. Make yourself a character that's a rock, avoid the paper while looking for the scissors. Don't know what that means in terms of CF?

"Melee: use lag, gear for big damage, and attack people you can out melee. Magic: avoid lag, gear for health, and attack people you can kill quickly." If you can do either one of those well, you're on the path of becoming a bothersome nuisance.

And don't worry if the paper calls you a coward.

Once you hit level 15, it's really easy to guage what stuff does. You remove the fine leather from that slot. You look at your score. You wear the piece in question. You look at your score. You see how much your stats, like hitroll and damroll, changed. If your health goes from 100% to 93% when you wear something, that means the equipment is giving you a bigger maximum health. That's good. Also, be sure to max out your constitution while leveling and max out your dexterity as early as possible. For melee classes, you want to max out your strength too. I don't know how much affect intelligence and wisdom have on pking with a mage. I know it helps for leveling and practicing.

For low level fighting, all you're really concerned with is +health, and for melee oriented classes +dam and keeping your +hit at least decent. The weapon is important too, but compare works great for that as it tells you directly which has a higher average. For a melee classes, I try to get a 25+ damroll around level 20 and decent weapons. If you see lots of "misses" in pk, you need more +hit gear. I don't usually try to pk with my mages at low levels so I'm not sure how much +health gear you can get.

The game has a lot of tactical depth so it can be hard to tell you about every possible scenario. You said you read the class guides, but I think more general guides might be helpful too. A search on the New Player Q&A forums for "pk tips" turned up some good posts (should be stickies):

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=5&topic_id=2034&mesg_id=2034&listing_type=search
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=5&topic_id=2560&mesg_id=2560&listing_type=search

This one has a lot of information that is only important at higher levels and I would say goes beyond the introductory level of pking:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=5&topic_id=2542&mesg_id=2542&listing_type=search


Hutto, the Sleepy Nitpicker

>It's good you know where fly potions are.

On that note... honestly, you can learn a lot as a newbie by:

1) Go to the potion/wand/etc. shops in each of the cities you know how to find.

2) Type list.

3) Use the 'browse' command on everything in the list.

Glorious wands at such a low level. Thank you Valg?

Results in reduced learning rates.

There are lots of places to go spam that people rarely go to and that are safer and more productive than your guild.