I won't say I'm a complete noob to PK, but cabal raiding is fairly foreign to me. I read the logs, and have been lurking for many many years, so it's not like I don't understand what's going on, but having never been in a cabal that actively has to defend/raid, I'm fairly unfamiliar with the Do's and Don'ts. I'm not looking for a comprehensive guide to raiding/retrieving, I'm just hoping to avoid glaringly obvious newb mistakes. Anybody have an idiot's guide to cabal wars, for someone who's already familiar with the basic mechanics of PK?

Splntrd

Act like you don't hear the ####head that logs on with a sweet range while you have a ####ty one.

Then what you do is "accidently" stray into a tough mob and get chewed up then "escape" to heal.
If you play it right ####head will either recover or get killed and out of range full looted so you can return to your ranking.

I'm just saying.

If I understand you correctly, the ####head is a cabalmate of yours with a different level range. In any case, I don't think it's a flaw to tell him that you don't think you'll survive the odds that are going to be against you if you try to retrieve the item. No need to make a dishonest promise to help, then make an elaborate scheme to avoid your duties. It's better that your ally knows that you aren't coming.

To many times the cabal channel erupts with talk of cowardice and notes are posted and it just becomes a general #### storm.

It's one of the reasons I like Outlander. Don't want to raid? Don't raid!

Personally battle has been the worst for me. I don't get presuring applicants and lowbies to retrieve when cents can trap them.

Correct version:

>Personally battle has been the worst for me. I don't get
>presuring applicants and lowbies to retrieve when cents can
>trap them unless they use the powerful pay command.

My understanding is that fort battle outlander get uninducted if they do.

Technically, Empire's not their enemy by default. They just almost always happen to be at war for one reason or another. In Battle, it isn't forbidden to aid evil or trade with civilization.

Definitely there are some Battle roles for which pay is inappropriate, but in my opinion there are also some for which it isn't.

I can't ever recall seeing someone get uninducted for this.

...I want to say it was Yevandr but I could be wrong. It was pretty sweet, actually:

Empire had the head. He logs in, heads to the Palace. No cents yet. He's got at least two empire in range, one of which was Khargurln (I think).

He retrieves while a centurion trap is getting set up, then kills one of the Imperials (they didn't get there at the same time). He takes the coins from that Imperial's corpse (and not much else, IIRC), and runs and uses the Imperial's coins to pay the centurion to pass.

I believe, however, that Kharg tracked him down to a nearby area when bloodthirst wore off and he was out of moves, and killed him.

I could be wrong on that last part though!


I thought it was a pretty suave move to pay the cent with the Imperial's own coins.

I've had battle chars that would and that wouldn't. Payed cents many times to get in and out, particularly with dagger spec or assassin, so that the whole thing is silent, they never know we have it back, all the while thinking their centurions will give warning. One time I remember we had it for almost an hour real time before they even realized - learning because I deathblow'd one to oblivion.

I have used coins to pay my way through a centurion trap, retrieved then speed killd them on the way out. I am almost positive once you fight an imperial there is a timer where you can't pay to pass centurions.

I remember you saying it was OK in your opinion for Fort/Battle/etc. to pay centurions a couple years ago, but then I saw the ####storm that happened when Kayella did it a little while back to regain the Orb and take down an imperial during Kostyan's time. It seemed like one of those choices that may be OK, and may result in you getting uninducted, depending on who was doing the watching. Which is the kind of arbitrary-judgement-seeking choice I often don't think is worth considering.

But with everyone making it sound like a "no brainer" ... I don't think I'll ever fight at centurions again

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying everyone should do it. A lot of chars will have roles that wouldn't jibe well with paying, and so if they do it's a cop-out. But it's not, in my mind, a cabal policy not to do it for battle or fortress at least.

Lots of my battle chars die at centurions because for them, it would be wrong to pay centurions. The irony of course is that by dying I give the empire not just all my coins but items as well. So it's sorta craptacular either way...

NT

I would be irritated if I saw any Squire or Maran paying Cents since it sort of seems like compromising on evil to me and I'm not thinking a Maran should be willing to do that. But Battle it's probably ok and such.

Let's think about that for a moment. In essence you're saying that a few thousand coins is more important than the holy orb. Unlike a lot of situations, this one is in fact pretty black and white. Young ones in particular couldn't possibly kill the centurions and will likely die, but they could bring down the vanquisher. So if they pay, you get back the holy orb. If they don't, you don't.

Are a few thousand coins that important? Given the literal millions the empire consumes? And also given that with the orb restored the fortress can do far better in its mission?

And what if you then take an equal amount of coin from the next imperial(s) you kill?

Or donate an equal amount to some charity in voralian?

In short, why would you be irritated rather than say that's a cool way to get the job done without anyone getting hurt, and even making it better to get that money back after?

That's part of what sucks about being a goodie. You have to stick by your principles even when it's inconvenient. But at least you get that "request" command.

Sphere Purity should never ever give coins to a centurion, IN MY OPINION.

I can see being irritated. It's kinda like paying an evil transmuter to haste your storm sword warrior so he can kill those same centurions to get to the palace to get the orb. You're doing your holy goodly duty and all, but evil is still making a profit.

I 'spose it's all about your character's role.

With the left leaning tendencies of staff and players, I'm sure they could justify it.

Respect the laws and all that.

a

Splntrd

Shopping in Udgaard. I don't do that as a fortress, but plenty will.

To me, that's the same as paying a centurion. Both are trading with evil in an effort to make battling evil easier.

Defending:

In order to take your item, the enemy has to defeat your inner guardian. The inner is a tough guy and it can take a lot to kill him. Therefore your best bet is to sit at the inner while defending if you think they are going to try to take your item. It is also possible to skirmish with the enemy at the outer. In this case, your best bet is to strike them when they are fighting the outer. If the enemy outnumbers you or is stronger than you, avoid fighting them face to face and do only light skirmishing. However, you don't really need to fight at the outer unless you want to stop them from retrieving. If you die, that clears the path for the enemy to take your item.

Retrieving:

The best strategy is to retrieve fast when they least expect it and try to get the outer killed and your item back before the enemy arrives to defend. If you can't do this, you'll have to defeat the defenders in order to get your item back or kill the outer faster. If the defenders choose to sit at the inner, keep and eye on them and focus on getting the outer killed, but be ready for them to jump on you. When attacking, you generally don't want to fight the defenders at the inner if that can be avoided.

The enemy cabal is generally a dangerous place and you should be ready to get jumped on at any time. If you come with a gang (you normally do when raiding) and die, it is not uncommon to get full looted/sacced (providing that anyone has time to think about such things) in order to put one member of the gang out of the game for a bit longer while. Also, dying at the inner is problematic as you cannto retrieve your own gear easily from there without a high risk of dying again.

A lot of this will be basic, but you did ask.

1) Have a clear idea of what you're trying to accomplish any time you attack or defend a cabal. It could be to take their item or get yours back, or it could be to kill or incapicate one or more of the defenders, or something else.

This will inform the choices you need to make.

2) Consider who could be involved for your enemies, including cabals other than the one that holds the items. Yes, this means that if you're Empire attacking Battle, you should be considering that an Outlander in your range probably knows where the Codex is and may well be waiting nearby for you to go for it, too. This also includes out-of-range characters.

This also should influence your choices and strategy; for example, a lot of lower level characters probably can't realistically get their item back directly from Fortress if they have to deal with a character in range and a hero healer. Instead they should be thinking about how they might remove one or both of those obstacles.

3) If you're attacking a cabal inner, know what it can do to you and plan ahead. If you're attacking Outlander, there's a good chance you could end up with an insect swarm on you; this shouldn't surprise you, and you should already have some idea of how you're going to handle that. You might also want to consider if it seems to be resistant to some types of damage.

(This goes the other way if you're defending a cabal at your inner.)

4) If your goal is to retrieve or take a cabal item (over trying to kill someone), ideally you'd like to do this without anyone beating on you. There are a number of ways to do this, depending on the circumstances. This might be trying for a silent raid, hitting the cabal hard and fast when no defenders are ready yet, or running defenders off. This might include temporarily blinding a defender so you can put out damage on the outer unmolested for a tick or two while they recover their sight one way or another. PK tactics that you've previously discarded because they make it too obvious too early that your opponent can't win may become useful here.

5) Depending on the healing options of your target, attrition may get you somewhere.

6) Keep in mind that the person holding a cabal item suffers some special restrictions. If you're raiding a cabal you need to think about how you're going to get it safely back to yours.

7) There are a few unconventional options for defending a cabal, such as killing whoever ends up with it, or stealing it from that person. This won't be a great option for most characters, but it can work for some.

8) Summon and other abilities that force movement can be big in a raid where you face opposition; bring yours to bear intelligently and watch out for your opponents to do the same.

9) You can ask your inner guard where your item is and what items you hold. Nothing is more embarrassing than dying repeatedly to get your item back from a cabal that doesn't have it.

10) Sleep/incapacitation abilities can be very powerful for temporarily removing a defender. For example, luring defenders into your snare and then recovering your item quickly while they're stuck. Other classes have other pretty good ways to do this; for example, most people clear out to deal with rot.

11) Know multiple ways to get from your cabal to theirs; this is especially important if you're Battle.

12) No plan survives contact with the enemy (this is especially true if you're Fortress) but it can still be handy to have one.

13) Be aware of the fact that solo PK and group PK / cabalraids are different, while related skills. Some of the best solo PKers I've seen in the history of CF are also the worst possible people to follow into a raid if you want to survive.

14) Try to make sure you aren't working at cross purposes with any of your allies; for example, you probably don't want to be spamming blind on an enemy if your buddy is spamming dispel on him.

15) Make good use of your allies, even those who aren't in range of the enemies you're most worried about. Many characters can word you if you get into trouble, could serve as lookouts, and so on.

>13) Be aware of the fact that solo PK and group PK / cabalraids are different, while related skills. Some of the best solo PKers I've seen in the history of CF are also the worst possible people to follow into a raid if you want to survive.<

Truer words have never been spoken. And surprisingly, vice versa. Some of the best group leaders/pk'ers I've seen have gotten housed by so-so pk'ers like myself in solo battles.

Don't be afraid to gather anyone sympathetic in your who group range and attack en masse to get your cabal item back, especially if people are asking you to group. Use them! Unless people have their own cabal agenda where they don't want to piss off the cabal you need to raid, most people are generally willing to swing by a cabal and get an item back quickly on their way to a ranking spot. You just need to not be afraid to ask and plan about it (ask your groupmates who they have in pk range, for example, so there are no surprises, ask your hero cabal mates to distract hero level support characters while you get your item back so there's no healer spamming rejuv while you're fighting the outer, etc).

a

Splntrd

12) No plan survives contact with the enemy (this is especially true if you're Fortress) but it can still be handy to have one.

You freely and fully admit so much more than you're actually saying here by that one line.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

But hey, any chance to rag on Fort, right? Do you ever get tired of it?

Splntrd

...you sure offer a lot of advice.

Scrimbul, while quite rife with misinfo, is somewhat right in that if I had to pick one cabal NOT to play to learn about cabal wars it would be Fort.

I think Fort's kind of a mixed bag for learning.

They tend to be aggressive around raiding relative to many cabals, and in that sense they're good to learn with. They also tend to be relatively heavy on support classes (including almost all of the players who have the support/group skills but not the solo PK skills, although, admittedly some terrible support people too), so when the Fort machine does get rolling and working as a group, it's pretty impressive to behold.

But, as I alluded to in my list, Fort is somewhat infamous for making plans that don't survive contact with the enemy. This is somehow true even when really good players play Fort.

Because you'll up your tolerance for keeping a character instead of rage-deleting before your Fortress char (and you will need to crush that urge, because it pops up quite a bit).

Never having been inducted to a cabal wars cabal doesn't mean I don't know what's going on.

And I didn't say he wasn't right, just that it's his favorite harp to play.

Splntrd

99% of the time Nexus is much the same way as far as that goes.

You'll never learn what to do. It's like pigs to the slaughter.

Battle is good for learning stuff because they have so much that they have to consider before doing it, it's a good warm-up. Each cabal is different on the inside and requires a different approach. For instance, raiding the village can be dangerous if you get entwined because you can't recall from inside. Raiding the Spire can be real easy if no one is there to defend, or it can be REALLY hard if you have to deal with 2 mobs per person awake.

But basically there are two types of raids, attack and retrieve. I'll start with retrieve because that's what you'll be doing first.

In retrieve you go in and kill the outer to get the item back. Basically it comes down to three situations of these:

1. You are either unopposed and you get it back
2. You are equally matched and you kill the outer before they kill you
3. You are so overwhelmingly outnumbered that all you can do is hit and run to keep weakening it till you can drop it.

Now there are ways to go about making 3 turn into 2, like hunting them and killing one or two because ghosts can't help much in a raid beyond picking up disarmed weapons. Or maybe you scout and discover that they are all in hell and can't get out in time to stop you so you rush in and get it back.

Now attacking is different because the addition of intelligent defenders adds a spec of chaos to the matter. Some cabals are VERY difficult to kill the inners with defenders, others are not so. But this is all stuff you'll have to figure out on your own. But basically if you have one or two people more than the opponent, you can probably take the item with a little effort. You probably want to raid your first time unopposed so you can get an idea of what the inners are going to do.

So here's the list of do's and don'ts.

Don'ts
1. DO NOT HAVE TRUSTALL ON!!! - This will embarass you.
2. DO NOT ATTACK THE OUTER AS A GHOST! It will instantly slay you.
3. DO NOT forget to bring a return and or teleport potion.
4. DO NOT think you have to kill the inners on the first wave.
5. DO NOT think you can't retrieve if there is a defender or two.
You only have to kill the outer.
6. DO NOT rush out from the inners to attack the assailants alone.

Do's

1. DO have trustcabal on.
2. DO ask questions.
3. Set tasks and targets BEFORE you go into the inners.
(ie. Rescue so and so at the inner, aim for so and so first)
4. Plan ahead. It's a good idea to have a plan even if it's a
bad one just so you can cut down on reaction time.

That's about all I can come up with off the top of my head. There's theories and camps and philosophies you can discuss, like is it better to make your first defense at the outer while they aren't expecting it or just waiting at the inner. Typically if they attack they are already prepared, so it's generally a good idea to run to the inners and prepare. But if they have a summoner they can summon you out unless you're in the village.

Just raid a lot and be super aggressive and you'll be satisfied. That's how I turned a nearly empty village into the most feared fighting force of Thera. I was starting from scratch basically as Trewyn was my first villager and the current raiding system was relatively new.