While it's still fresh in my mind...

I echo what I wrote in my battlefield, bards are great, and I mention most of what I do below only because they stuck out in an otherwise terrific class. Hadn't played a bard since Scaurus a decade ago and I will almost certainly play another soon. They are powerful and versatile and fun.

Tranquil serenade. What's the rationale for which mobs it works on and which it doesn't? There are a bunch of mobs it doesn't work on that doesn't make sense, to me, given the other mobs it does work on. For instance, it doesn't work on drow patrollers in the underdark. It works on all the other drow, both greet_prog attack ones and not. Just the patrollers. It works on most mobs, to be sure, and I agree it shouldn't work on all mobs, but the implementation of that differentiation doesn't, from my anecdotal 450 hour experience, seem logical.

Symphonic echoes. Same question, what's the thinking behind where it works and where it doesn't? For example, it works on some undead/nonliving things, but not others. At first I thought the answer might be age, mobs in older areas are affected and mobs in newer ones might not be, but that didn't hold true, or at least not always. So there must be something else. Specific examples: it works on the wight/ghast in halfling lands, but not the skeletons on caladaryl. It works on the lich guildmasters in arboria, but not the wandering liches in the graveyard of arboria. Now there is a game balance issue here, too, not just the logic. Making the distorable mobs non-distorable would be a not insignificant dimishment for bards. And the converse is also true, making the non-distorable mobs distorable would be a not insignificant boost to bards. We can have that discussion if you want. But for now, I'm just asking what the logic is behind where it works and doesn't work now, and if it's meant to be this way.

Distortion opportunist. I had this, and saw no benefit. I recognize it's impossible to be sure, as there's no echo for when an attack that otherwise wouldn't have been distorted was as a result of the edge, but I had a lot of experience with it and for its cost it appeared useless. I changed up carry weight (though I'm not sure if that even matters, as it's not actual dodging, but I wanted to test, so I did), changed up dex and charisma (had that edge), but never saw any real increase in distortion dodges after taking the edge.

Soothing voice edge. I think this should be available to neutral bards. I say this after my guy died, and knowing I'm not going to play another neutral bard any time soon, so I'm not being self serving. I just think it makes sense. My personal opinion.

Tipsy/drunk/smashed. I had all the drinking edges so my experience may not be average. With that in mind, I suggest a bit more space or echo between drunk and smashed with poison. At one point I went from tipsy to smashed, without drunk in the middle. Didn't know it was coming. Was surprising and somewhat problematic, at the time. Worth putting in a little something there, I think.

Talismans/scrolls. Once talisman skill was at 100% it never failed. Not once, worked every time. Once scrolls skill was at 100% it failed all the time. I would mispronounce a syllable two or three times in a row on regular occasions. I'm sure the code doesn't make it worse for you once you get the skill to 100. I'm not suggesting that. But I am suggesting there is something fishy there, and how routine failure is for that skill.

Comedic instruments. There is a real dearth of comedic instruments. I'm not sure why, and I presume some of the answer is area writer discretion, but I know the staff from time to time tweaks the items in the game and I think converting a few from the other repertoires into comedic is appropriate. There is a plethora of the other three and a real paucity of comedic, particularly in high end instruments.

A capella vs. instrument, and their respective edges. This is more a question than comment. How do these work? In my mind I envision it this way, using entirely made up numbers, and assuming all other things are equal:

A capella = 60% song strength.
A capella + a capella edge = 75% song strength.
Instrument = 100% song strength.
Instrument + instrument edge = 115% song strength.

Is that within a county or two of accurate?

I bugboarded the Hear Light edge insanity (people become Immortals when you're blind) but just in case it slips through the cracks, here's a friendly reminder.

Flourish. Comment and question combo. Comment like above, seemed to have a few rare instances where it didn't work but should, or vice versa. Unfortunately I can't think of an example right at this moment, but there you have it. Question: does reducing a mob's morale actually do anything? Was there any benefit to using flourish while fighting a mob?

I think that's it for now. If I remember anything else note worthy, I'll drop it in.

Thanks again!

>Tranquil serenade. What's the rationale for which mobs it
>works on and which it doesn't?

Essentially, this is up to area writer discretion to a large amount; it's a separate immunity that an NPC can have.

>Symphonic echoes. Same question, what's the thinking behind
>where it works and where it doesn't?

I'm going to punt on this one because I'd need to double-check the code to make sure my line of thinking is correct, and I can't right now.

>Distortion opportunist. I had this, and saw no benefit. I
>recognize it's impossible to be sure, as there's no echo for
>when an attack that otherwise wouldn't have been distorted was
>as a result of the edge, but I had a lot of experience with it
>and for its cost it appeared useless. I changed up carry
>weight (though I'm not sure if that even matters, as it's not
>actual dodging, but I wanted to test, so I did), changed up
>dex and charisma (had that edge), but never saw any real
>increase in distortion dodges after taking the edge.

It's not a large modifier, but I think it's definitely worthwhile if you're going to use distortion a lot.

Essentially it's an expensive edge with a smallish modifier because it rewards what you'd probably already want to do in most combats.
time. Worth putting in a little

>Talismans/scrolls. Once talisman skill was at 100% it never
>failed. Not once, worked every time. Once scrolls skill was
>at 100% it failed all the time. I would mispronounce a
>syllable two or three times in a row on regular occasions.
>I'm sure the code doesn't make it worse for you once you get
>the skill to 100. I'm not suggesting that. But I am suggesting
>there is something fishy there, and how routine failure is for
>that skill.

Scrolls, especially for non-mages, has a non-zero failure rate even at 100.

>Comedic instruments. There is a real dearth of comedic
>instruments. I'm not sure why, and I presume some of the
>answer is area writer discretion, but I know the staff from
>time to time tweaks the items in the game and I think
>converting a few from the other repertoires into comedic is
>appropriate. There is a plethora of the other three and a real
>paucity of comedic, particularly in high end instruments.

I agree that comedic gets the shorter end of the stick; that being said, there's also some pretty good un/under-utilized comedic instruments out there. For example, there's a really good one in a high traffic area that I haven't seen anyone grab in a while.

>A capella vs. instrument, and their respective edges. This is
>more a question than comment. How do these work? In my mind I
>envision it this way, using entirely made up numbers, and
>assuming all other things are equal:
>
>A capella = 60% song strength.
>A capella + a capella edge = 75% song strength.
>Instrument = 100% song strength.
>Instrument + instrument edge = 115% song strength.
>
>Is that within a county or two of accurate?

Again with the made-up numbers caveat, you're pretty close on the first three. A capella strength does go up as the a capella skill goes up.

The fourth case works a little different; it's probably more accurate to see it as boosting or possibly boosting the effective quality of the instrument you're using.

>Flourish. Comment and question combo. Comment like above,
>seemed to have a few rare instances where it didn't work but
>should, or vice versa. Unfortunately I can't think of an
>example right at this moment, but there you have it.
>Question: does reducing a mob's morale actually do anything?

Yes, but in most cases, not much that's useful.

>Was there any benefit to using flourish while fighting a mob?

Sure! Flourish does something else besides slap on a morale penalty. If I could remember what that was off the top of my head I'd even tell you.

>
>>Tranquil serenade. What's the rationale for which mobs it
>>works on and which it doesn't?
>
>Essentially, this is up to area writer discretion to a large
>amount; it's a separate immunity that an NPC can have.

Ok, and I get that, but maybe it's worth having someone go through the game as a whole and redo some of that, because certain races appear in multiple areas, and giving characteristics in some places but not others doesn't make sense. That has been the trend in cf for many years now, getting more and more "real" within the parameters of the basic fantasy world. If a dark elf is able to be calmed down in one area, it should be able to be calmed down in all areas, assuming all else is equal of course. If there is some backstory, or something in the mob description that would explain such an immunity, great. But otherwise, random dark elf warrior mob should be the same in one area as another, and both should be calm-able, or both not. Just logical. Just my opinion of course.

>
>>Symphonic echoes. Same question, what's the thinking behind
>>where it works and where it doesn't?
>
>I'm going to punt on this one because I'd need to double-check
>the code to make sure my line of thinking is correct, and I
>can't right now.

Ok, and honestly it matters less to me what the thinking offering the same suggestion as above, and more to simply make the system consistent, or at least follow some logical pattern. If it works on A, then it should work on all things like A, again, unless there's some reason a particular example of A is exceptional.

>
>>Distortion opportunist. I had this, and saw no benefit. I
>>recognize it's impossible to be sure, as there's no echo for
>>when an attack that otherwise wouldn't have been distorted
>was
>>as a result of the edge, but I had a lot of experience with
>it
>>and for its cost it appeared useless. I changed up carry
>>weight (though I'm not sure if that even matters, as it's
>not
>>actual dodging, but I wanted to test, so I did), changed up
>>dex and charisma (had that edge), but never saw any real
>>increase in distortion dodges after taking the edge.
>
>It's not a large modifier, but I think it's definitely
>worthwhile if you're going to use distortion a lot.

I might be mistaken but I assume every bard uses distortion every fight they're in, assuming it works on who/what they fight. Are there bards that fight that don't really use symphonic?

>
>Essentially it's an expensive edge with a smallish modifier
>because it rewards what you'd probably already want to do in
>most combats.
>time. Worth putting in a little
>
>>Talismans/scrolls. Once talisman skill was at 100% it never
>>failed. Not once, worked every time. Once scrolls skill was
>>at 100% it failed all the time. I would mispronounce a
>>syllable two or three times in a row on regular occasions.
>>I'm sure the code doesn't make it worse for you once you get
>>the skill to 100. I'm not suggesting that. But I am
>suggesting
>>there is something fishy there, and how routine failure is
>for
>>that skill.
>
>Scrolls, especially for non-mages, has a non-zero failure rate
>even at 100.

I knew that. And I accept that. I guess I was unclear, what I meant to say was that the failure rate, even at 100, seemed higher than one would expect. At 100% I would think a reasonable failure rate would be 1/20 or perhaps 1/15. It was more like 1/5 for me, which I thought was rather high. Just my opinion on that, so I make the suggestion to tweak it a bit. Your calls of course.

>
>>Comedic instruments. There is a real dearth of comedic
>>instruments. I'm not sure why, and I presume some of the
>>answer is area writer discretion, but I know the staff from
>>time to time tweaks the items in the game and I think
>>converting a few from the other repertoires into comedic is
>>appropriate. There is a plethora of the other three and a
>real
>>paucity of comedic, particularly in high end instruments.
>
>I agree that comedic gets the shorter end of the stick; that
>being said, there's also some pretty good un/under-utilized
>comedic instruments out there. For example, there's a really
>good one in a high traffic area that I haven't seen anyone
>grab in a while.
>
>>A capella vs. instrument, and their respective edges. This
>is
>>more a question than comment. How do these work? In my mind
>I
>>envision it this way, using entirely made up numbers, and
>>assuming all other things are equal:
>>
>>A capella = 60% song strength.
>>A capella + a capella edge = 75% song strength.
>>Instrument = 100% song strength.
>>Instrument + instrument edge = 115% song strength.
>>
>>Is that within a county or two of accurate?
>
>Again with the made-up numbers caveat, you're pretty close on
>the first three. A capella strength does go up as the a
>capella skill goes up.
>
>The fourth case works a little different; it's probably more
>accurate to see it as boosting or possibly boosting the
>effective quality of the instrument you're using.
>
>>Flourish. Comment and question combo. Comment like above,
>>seemed to have a few rare instances where it didn't work but
>>should, or vice versa. Unfortunately I can't think of an
>>example right at this moment, but there you have it.
>>Question: does reducing a mob's morale actually do anything?
>
>Yes, but in most cases, not much that's useful.
>
>>Was there any benefit to using flourish while fighting a mob?
>
>
>Sure! Flourish does something else besides slap on a morale
>penalty. If I could remember what that was off the top of my
>head I'd even tell you.

Thanks for responding.

Just a few of my own echoes (get it? Bard joke...oh never mind)

Tranquil serenade. I forgot about this but it's definitely something odd. For the most part it worked as expected. Mindless critters like undead and constructs couldn't be serenaded and I expected that. But I also noticed the drow patrollers were different and immune to all my attempts. Being living, that made no sense to me.

Distortion opportunist. I thought I saw a really big benefit from this compared to previous comedic bards I had without the edge. But as you say, it's all anecdotal and I might have just been deluding myself. Based on other edges though, I'd say if you got a 10% benefit from it (i.e. distorted 10% more attacks) it'd probably not be noticable but worthwhile.

Soothing voice wasn't bad. I think instead of healing 81 or so on an average it turned into 89 after the edge. (I had a piccolo at the time) So it was a 10% increase. I didn't know neutral bards couldn't take it. I could see not giving then Inspiration of Angels (which I never noticed any use for after taking it) but soothing voice is pretty basic.

More Comedic Instruments. YES PLEASE! Balten used a level 35 piccolo for the first 240 or so hours of his life because despite around 12 attempts at getting a harmonica they were never in. I knew exactly who had two of them too, but I couldn't really wrestle them out of their hands. I had to wait for one of their deletion threads to show up on the boards and then run over after the next crash to finally have a hero level instrument. People kept telling me 'Oh there's one in <massive area explore goodies don't really go to very often>', that didn't really help me out though.

I was pulling lyres and harps out of new zones with disturbing frequency. I never did find that dragon with an epic kazoo though.

I'd like to echo the comedic instruments part. It goes from using a recorder/piccolo to the silver harmonica. I'd like to think I know the game pretty well and have had some fairly successful bards. I always found comedic instruments to be the most difficult to acquire--simply because there are so very few. I'd like to see some more middle-range stuff added. Something around level 35, 40 and 45. Pretty much every other repertoire has this option.

I don't see an "edit post" link to click anywhere, and for some reason I repeatedly forgot the second "t" in distortable....

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!