???

but what do you expect out of a cabal running imm? I confess, I don't do much. I make leaders, hand out last names and immxp for cool things, occasionally make comments on CB, usually when people are screwing up. All general oversight. I often think "Crap I should run a quest" but unfortunately quest running isn't my niche or what I enjoy so I tend to put if off. Running really active religions is a heavy responsibility and a lot of work but to me, running a cabal not so much.

>if off. Running really active religions is a heavy
>responsibility and a lot of work but to me, running a cabal
>not so much.

I think I am of a mind set that running a cabal is a bigger responsibility than running an active religion, most good for most number of people thing I guess.

I think if general oversight is what we are moving towards then perhaps we should look at ways of giving the playerbase more ownership of the cabal process.

You won't actually state your opinion.

Running a cabal should involve more than what Baer's doing. Ok. Like what, SPECIFICALLY?

I have a hard time jumping on the "I hate Baer" bandwagon with some of you, because it's obvious that she does try where other Imms don't. And she's made numerous posts on these forums asking for feedback and advice.

So, just ####ing give it to her. Making a blanket "She sucks" post is pointless, if you don't make recommendations on how she can do better.

Angling for a tattoo? Try praying instead.

I think I've proven I can get her tattoo without kissing her ass on the forums.

You, meanwhile, only prove that you're here to argue because you dislike someone personally, rather than because you think they're doing a poor job.

####ing pathetic, dude.



PS, Baer.. temperance please?

Let me start off with this first. Outside of knowing your forum handle as Java I have no effin idea who you are. So when you start talking about your characters without mentioning specifics, all I hear is blah blah blah.

No one said she was doing a poor job asshole. But let me ask you this... what happens when Baer burns out? Or are we still of the, we will cross that bridge when we come to it, fame?

And I've tried really hard to not get too specific in this debate just so I wouldnt have to get into a finger pointing and what I hate about you and what you hate about me match. But here goes.


1) I have a problem with an immortal inviting specific players to join their cabals, roll characters for their religion.

2) I have an even bigger problem with immortals that keep strict tabs on what liked and disliked players are playing. Baer is notorious for tracking ips and keeping tabs on morts.

3) I have an issue with one person running three cabals, and deciding rp and cabal political direction. It would be nice to not have to forgo three cabals to avoid one immortal.

4) She herself said she believes in a more oversight type role for cabals, as opposed to a religion which requires heavier involvement. So what exactly about my response was so difficult for you to understand?

Instead of saying "This is what you're doing wrong", how about saying "This is how you could do it better"?


Right now you're just saying you disagree with how she does things. Which is fine, but how should she do it differnetly.

So you think she should have a bigger role in cabals. What should she be doing exactly? It's not that ####ing complicated, dude.

Oh, and every Imm (and most morts) invite good players to join them. There's nothing malicious going on with that. People like playing the game with enjoyable players. I doubt you're an exception to that.

Do me a favor take this thread and nicefy it for me and then go spoon feed it to all parties involved.

You've decided you want to tell people they're doing a poor job, without any constructive criticism.

Way to be helpful.

The thread on the gameplay forum. Swee Jesus kid if you pulled your head out of fuzzy and warm place you have it stashed, I swear you'd have a better time making me look like a douche.

PS. Its really not that hard.

The one where you automate inductions via recommendation?

How does that involve Baer being MORE involved in her cabals?

After reading some of what's being said here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Kadsuane seems to have a dislike for one Immortal player watching over three cabals.

In a way, I tend to agree, but probably for different reasons. Some of the best interactions I've had in the past were while I was in a cabal with an active Immortal for that cabal.

To me, an active Immortal is routinely using cabal mobs to talk with people, whether it be a correction of some sort, or to congratulate someone on an especially nice kill (and get a nifty necklace made of bones from the person you just killed as a trophy--rot_death most likely), or even just to play around and RP with someone in the cabal. There have been times when there was an active enough Immortal in a cabal that you really didn't have to be anyone special just to get noticed a little and get some RP outside the norm (e.g. with other Mortal players).

An active Immortal, who is enjoying playing the game, will have creative sparks to add to the immersive world of CF. They can do this by running mini-quests for their specific cabal. Which might help encourage other people to RP with the other people in their cabal more than they would have otherwise. Let's face it, people put on a happy face when they know an Imm is possibly watching, and generally, the RP is kicked up a notch. Is that wrong? Not entirely, in my humble opinion. That's just part of the inspiration they *can* have.

For a while there, Battle seemed to have a regular and consistent Immortal presence. What did we see during this time period? About 6/8 hero Battle Ragers had titles. That was pretty cool. I think I remember posting something about it on QHCF... more astonished than mad or upset about it. I think it's cool.

And I don't bounce around from cabal to cabal much, but since I've been back since spring, I've been in Tribunal, Fortress, Outlander and Empire. Aside from a little interaction from Padwei while I was in Fortress, and some stupid ranting from Jasthrean, and some talks about policy in Tribunal from Marcatis, I really haven't seen much of anything. It just sort of feels empty around all of the cabals as far as Immortal presence goes.



Personally, I think if the Immortals start helping to make people's experiences better in the game through cabal interactions and mini-quests and other miscellaneous tidbits here and there, we might see more consistent and regular play from the people who are kind of leaning on the edge of whether they enjoy playing or not.

As it stands, it seems like the same people are getting all of the little attention that is being thrown out. Are these people really that much better than me at roleplaying? Because for the most part, I tend to have largely favorable farewell's from people that interact with me.


There's probably more to say. But that's all I've got time for right now.

So I kinda figured you had actually read my posts before you started going off on me but I guess I was wrong. Yes I am talking about my gameplay post and how is that post relevant you ask?


http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=8&topic_id=15343&mesg_id=15386&page=

Point #2 talks specifically about that inherent break in the cabal system and how my suggestion would be a pretty drastic shift. And it IS a pretty drastic shift. I am suggesting the secularization of cabals and pooling immortals to deal with cabal admin issues, and then you can just let the role specific imms interact in the cabal in a complete IC way.

Lets talk about recommendations. Your argument is that they are given out like candy...yeah maybe thats an opportunity for an of the enforced roleplay requirement in the recommendation system. You know like empowerment will mostly require role? Recommendation could require a specific roleplay interaction between related parties. And not just a wink wink nod nod secret handshake type thing. And immortals watching such interactions would serve as an audit function. Just a thought...

Your cynical deflection misses Java.

Would you rather Scion be immless again? I think what the staff have been trying to say that if she's not doing it, nobody will be. At least someone's trying to keep some of this #### alive on the immortal end.

The way I read it was like this:


Baer said "Running really active religions is a heavy responsibility and a lot of work but to me, running a cabal not so much."

Kads said "...running a cabal is a bigger responsibility than running an active religion, most good for most number of people..."

The only specific point being addressed there was the amount of time and effort put into running a cabal, as opposed to a religion.

Personally, I think cabals should get a bigger allotment of time and effort because, as Kadsuane stated, it does the most good for a larger number of people, where as a religion has a very narrow scope.

If it's too much of a chore, or a bore, to run a cabal, then that cabal should probably be remade into something that the Imms are actually enthused about.

If she's going to be putting more time into the cabal, WHAT SHOULD SHE BE DOING?

She made a short list of what she does in the running of a cabal. What should be added to that list, in your opinion?

1. Interaction. Interaction. Interaction.

2. Take over mobs and interact.

3. Interaction.

4. Run mini quests

5. Have a presence

6. Give presents

7. Interaction


I have nothing against anyone. I don't play enough to know you people that well. But it seems that what Kads is saying is that Ms. RayBear needs to give the attention she gives her religions to her cabals in the hopes that more people will be better affected.

******If there isn't enough staff to cover the cabals and she is doing what she can when she can then all of this is a moot point. But I think people would appreciate more of 1 - 7, most notably number 1.

In a nutshell, juxtapose the priorities of her religion and her cabal(s). Of course, it's a volunteer job so to a degree she can do what she wants.

>Personally, I think cabals should get a bigger allotment of
>time and effort because, as Kadsuane stated, it does the most
>good for a larger number of people, where as a religion has a
>very narrow scope.

Interaction is a limited resource.

If someone has time/energy/etc. on a given day to interact with 5 people in their cabal, or 5 people in their religion, that's still 5 people and that's not really a wider scope.

So in at least some sense I think the notion that you can interact with more people with cabal vs. religion is incorrect.

I agree with you in part. Interaction is a limited resource. Correct me on the numbers if you want but I'd imagine at any given time there are more people in a cabal then there are following any one religion. So the choice would more be like interact with the 10 people in the cabal or the 2 people in the religion.

I like the big red flag that says "Hey, I want to interract with you" that comes about when someone is a part of your religion. There are lots of people who play cabals but don't really want to interract with the imms. I guess that in a nutshell is why I traditionally give more attention to my religions than my cabals.

Yeah you are right, I didnt really factor in the I want no immteraction crew.

Your assumption on cabal vs. religion size is correct; however, on any given day Raybaer can easily spend the whole night just trying to work through the line of people outside one of her shrines. . . which goes back to what I was saying.

In an ideal world we'd have more people who are fired up about doing that kind of stuff and she wouldn't have to, say, stretch to cover Scion somewhat since otherwise it'd be completely uncovered, and Twist wouldn't need to be Gurgthock to help out with some of the time zones in which Empire is largely uncovered, and so on... but we do the best we can with the people and interest levels that we have.

Here would be my list. Not to imply you're not already doing these things:

1. Verbal high-fives. Either on cb or to individual characters. Possibly in the guise of one of the cabal mobs. I remember Enlilth doing this once for some Empire bard who was sort of newbieish and had just gotten destroyed by Fortress during a raid. But at least he had tried to defend. Enlilth popped down and promoted him on the spot. I think he may also have given him black sanc, which wasn't as cool, but the dude was so outnumbered I didn't feel it was inappropriate.

2. Doing the sort of policing mortal leaders can't do. Booting people for being idiots. It's frustrating for a mortal leader when he really suspects someone's doing something boot-worthy but can never verify it because he's just not able to watch the guy 24/7. On the other hand, having the cabal imm do this sort of kills the possibility of characters playing "treacherous" roles, e.g. corrupt tribunal.

3. Quests are kind of cool, even if they're short-term and pretty simplistic. Using Enlith as an example again, the one where he "stole" Padwei was fun. Was interesting to see everyone's different reactions.

Are you saying that one player has a leadership spot in three or four cabals?

Or are you saying, why does one Imm watch over three or four cabals?

nt

.

The whole 'get two recommendations'.

It's time to change the cabal application process. Want to invigorate CF, find a way to make joining a cabal not such a pain in the ass.

+10 players

And that has a trickle-UP effect.

Some leaders require rec's. Some don't.



Vote for me, for leader of everything. I think requiring rec's is dumb.

>Want to
>invigorate CF, find a way to make joining a cabal not such a
>pain in the ass.

See: applicant status.

Beyond that, what Java said.

It shows you who put in effort to get involved with the cabal, and allows you a chance to rp your history plus get to know the veteran members.

I think it'd be even more of a pain to make induction process faster, then waste time weeding out the assholes later who ruin cabal reputation and make it less fun for allies and enemies alike.

It's interesting and useful... for the first time.
If you have done it 30 times before and have to waste time again it's just annoying. Especially if you have to talk so called veterans who may be idiots and less worthy than you.

Regardless of the induction process, the playerbase stays the same. And you will always get good and bad apples in each cabal. Again, regadless of the induction process.
We have cabal with easy induction and we have cabal we hard inductions. The average quality of characters in each cabal is about the same.

It's just my opinion and my method, like you have yours. I have inducted people without recs based purely off superb rp as well, but for the general record I'm just saying it can be useful. I think I am also referencing a bit more to Battle than other cabals (Empire works on an entirely different system, I know).

Also everytime you roll a char it's different from the last. If you're repeating exactly the same thing 30 times it would simply mean your role is probably the same..i.e. mages burned my village..again. On the other hand if you're familiar with the process it shouldn't even take much time or be a problem for you. I've gained recs in 5 mins, or by helping with raids/retrievals/pks and not just sitting down talking.

There is "right" and there is "wrong".
It's the question of admitting the latter.
Speaking of Battle, there are times when people are mass inducted and there are times when you need to gather many recs. Yet still regardless of that the average quality of characters doesn't change. Not at all.
The whole cabal induction system fails to serve the goal that has been declared several times: reject bad apples and induct good apples. And if it not, why don't let it go? For now it is just annoyance for both: applicants and veterans to gather/provide all those recommendations. Even more, often this burden on leaders make them play less.

I like the aspect of getting recommendations (from the IMM perspective) so that people are forced to interact.

It also reinforces the idea that something worked for feels like something earned, rather if it's just handed to you, it becomes meaningless (Oh well easy come easy go).

To a MUCH lesser extent, with any game like CF, there are processes and things to do that just keep you busy. Such as quests, etc. Not everyone likes them, but some people do.

We could make a mud where you create your character at level 51, then pick your cabal and poof, you are PK ready in the first hour.

No thanks.


G.

>I like the aspect of getting recommendations (from the IMM
>perspective) so that people are forced to interact.

It's quite dumb way of interaction. You go and tell to somebody who you don't really know your retarted background with your accent and they often don't really care about it.
The actual interaction starts when you are already in a cabal and make friends/enemies. It is more natural and more fun.

>It also reinforces the idea that something worked for feels
>like something earned, rather if it's just handed to you, it
>becomes meaningless (Oh well easy come easy go).

For somebody it feels like something earned.
For me it feels like wasted time.

>To a MUCH lesser extent, with any game like CF, there are
>processes and things to do that just keep you busy. Such as
>quests, etc. Not everyone likes them, but some people do.

More tedious = less players.
Many players told so many times. Keeping ingnoring their opinion is not against rules but doesn't help the game either.

>We could make a mud where you create your character at level
>51, then pick your cabal and poof, you are PK ready in the
>first hour.
>
>No thanks.

And that mud would have more players too.
Because ranking and induction is often a part of the char building process and after it's done the actual gameplay reaches its peak. You have time to RP/PK/explore, you have reputation, you have allies and enemies, etc.

maple.can.net test server was fun too.

>It's quite dumb way of interaction. You go and tell to
>somebody who you don't really know your retarted background
>with your accent and they often don't really care about it.

I can see your point here. My frustration as a mortal leader is that all I know about an applicant is what I see in the interview, usually, and what other people have said. But they're in the same boat I am, usually basing their opinions solely on what they see in the interview.

Consequently you get characters like Moopsie and Mrowwler inducted into Fortress. This is my enduring shame. If I could have examined their imm comments then I probably wouldn't have inducted them. Or if, like an imm, I'd been able to snoop them while wizi, then I might not have inducted them.

This is actually sort of an argument for immortal induction, but I feel like they have enough stuff on their plate as it is.

>For somebody it feels like something earned.
>For me it feels like wasted time.

Granted. Maybe this game is not for you? This isn't a new thing either, by the way. I remember how cool it felt to get into Masters after having interviewed with five different mortal leaders. Some of them multiple times, since I didn't already know the answers to all the "five magics" questions.

>And that mud would have more players too.

I would not play that mud. I play Carrion Fields. I am not the only person for whom this is the case.

Just kidding. I still wouldn't care, but someone probably would.

I suggest to actually consider my opinions. That's because I'm a smart person (though not very polite)
If you noticed, people have hard time to beat my arguments with their arguments. That's because I'm a smart person.
So they choose to dodge my arguments and talk about unrelated things or my personality. Like you in your last post, hehe.
Anyway, I'm rarely wrong despite the fact that my opinions often don't fit well into the average american world. Though many don't realize it at the first glance. They start to see it on the distance.

Or it means they don't care enough to argue you down.

Just a thought. If winning an argument is being the last person to post, it means the winner is the person who cares most, not the person who is smartest.

>For somebody it feels like something earned.
>For me it feels like wasted time.

Changing the game for a malcontent like you won't serve any productive purpose. Your forum posts of late prove you'll only gripe about something else.

It's a shame, you used to be a really good contributor to CF. If I was new to the forums and read posts like yours, I doubt I'd start playing here.

I'm still really a good contributor to CF.
And if my posts turns you away from CF I would be only glad because we have more than enough hypocrisy here already.

>I'm still really a good contributor to CF.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I think you spend most of your time trolling.

I don't think you always did that, and maybe it happened so gradually that you didn't notice it, but that's you today.

I like recs and seeing people interact both from a cabal member aspect and an app perspective. That said, I often encourage Fort and Nexus leaders to induct young where possible. I think the root of the recs is to make sure the leaders aren't wasting their time with an applicant. So often I see someone pledge, die, and rage delete in the span of an hour. If I'd just spent an hour interviewing and inducting that guy and then had to watch him delete I'd be pissed. I DO get pissed when this happens with my empowerees.

>So often
>I see someone pledge, die, and rage delete in the span of an
>hour. If I'd just spent an hour interviewing and inducting
>that guy and then had to watch him delete I'd be pissed. I DO
>get pissed when this happens with my empowerees.

If that hour you spent interviewwing is fun for you why you would be pissed? You had fun! For an hour!
If it is not so much fun and mostly burden... Just be fair to yourself and us. Admit it. Then let it go away.

Immortals normally don't own the induction process. You need to convince the playerbase that when they have a leader, they don't require reccomendations. The one cabal leader I had inducted after a 5-15 minute interview that I tried to conduct as soon as someone pledged.

>If that hour you spent interviewwing is fun for you why you
>would be pissed? You had fun! For an hour!

While she may find interacting with empowerees fun on the whole, she may not enjoy the "initial empowerment interview" part of it.

In the case of mortal leaders, interviews usually aren't that fun because you're working with a limited amount of hours on the character. Spending 40 hours of your life interviewing people is 40 hours you can't spend on something else. It is the rare interviewee that makes an interview actually enjoying for the mortal leader.

Seriously if anyone thinks that one imm can run four cabals they are out of their minds. I know the desire to help out cabals that are hurting for imm involvement, and I respect that but taking on four cabals really does nothing to help the game out.

The cabals suffer because one person is trying to do the work of the four active immortals and I don't care how many hours a day you mud Morgan, you arent gonna be able to do everything for everyone.

The other big problem with one person runing multiple cabals in the shift in the cabal ideology and rp. One person telling four cabals what to do what not to do, what behaviors to reward what, to punish.. maybe I'm the only one sees a problem developing here?


All I am saying is..

Four Cabals
Sole active member of the area review team
Three religions

Can we just change the name of the game to Morgan.mud

.

What an awesome Nep response. Fine, I stand corrected on the count, I apologize for spreading misinfo. I think every thing I just said applies to three cabal as well though.

She's the only Imm in one of her cabals, in another she's one of two very active Imms. In the third she's one of three.


So it isn't like she's single handedly running the entire MUD. And for the most part, it doesn't seem like any of the cabals are suffering, does it?

There was a time when running one cabal properly was considered a pretty big responsibility for just one immortal.

1) I'm not the boss of her.

2) What's your proposed alternate solution? Close half the cabals?

1) Yes you are. Last I checked you were an IMP and I don't think she is one yet. Just cause she outranks you at home does not mean you can abandon your CF job dude.

2) Believe it or not I am actually thinking about this one, when I have something intelligent to say on this I'll post on the gameplay forum. I have a feeling any solution to the inherent problems with cabalwars will require a pretty drastic departure from the system we currently have.

nt

Actually, I pretty much have abandoned my CF job.

Next point?

Let me know when you delete il buy your pbfs.

Like anything else, the time and interest I have to put into CF goes through cycles.

Right now I don't have a lot of time, and I'm not telling the people who do have time how they should be running ####. Someday that probably will be different again, but now, it is what it is. I've been able to keep up with my empowerees reasonably well, but not a lot more than that.

>2) What's your proposed alternate solution? Close half the
>cabals?

I'm starting to think this way lately.
Maybe it is not that absurd as it appears.

Narrow it to two sides: red and blue.
More players, more actions and opportunities to interact, less wierd cabal designs to make them balanced.

nt

CF isn't Team Fortress. Red and blue wouldn't inspire me to play CF at all.

I vote we close some of the cabals. The current system was great when we had 100 players. It isn't as great when we only have 20-40.

it's responses like this that make me play no rp chars that permagroup, you obviously don't give a ####, why should we?

Cheers,
Jhyrb

I don't give a #### because I gave you the honest answer?

If other imms wanted to step up and take an active role in running those or other cabals, they certainly could. The reality is that the staff goes through high and low tides of having people who are good at / interested in each of the many different things an imm can do for the game. Right now we're not super stacked on people who want to run cabals.

You wrote that no one else cares to do it, which means none of you care to do it, which means none of you(including you) give a #### about it. Sure it's honest, but it doesn't change what you wrote. (that you don't give a ####) Maybe because I don't care about your reasons you are getting upset, but i'm not the one that wrote it. See? I can give honest replies too.

Cheers,
Jhyrb

I run part of one cabal. I run one religion. That's not giving a #### about it.

Most imms do those things; despite that, there are still some bases that weren't covered, such as the Scion cabal.

You haven't given a #### in a long time. It's apparent in every one of your posts and in 98.3% of all your imm comments on PBFs. I don't know many people that have ever interacted with you on a religion level nor do I see you doing much with your cabal. Going through the motions != giving a ####.

Cheers,
Jhyrb

>You haven't given a #### in a long time.

I can be pretty arrogant, but even I don't generally try to tell people I know what their feelings are better than they do.

Others call it being an asshole.

Cheers,
jhyrb

nt

>You wrote that no one else cares to do it, which means none
>of you care to do it, which means none of you(including you)
>give a #### about it. Sure it's honest, but it doesn't change
>what you wrote. (that you don't give a ####) Maybe because I
>don't care about your reasons you are getting upset, but i'm
>not the one that wrote it. See? I can give honest replies
>too.


I'm confused. Because nobody that was an Imm had the time to manage another cabal, it means none of them give a ####? Is it at least possible that at least some of them cared, but didn't have the extra time to commit to do it? Reading this thread, one could get the impression there wasn't constant bitching by "veterans" when there was no active imm overseeing Scion...

As someone trying to actually contribute to the mud (as opposed to just regularly posting angry and vague criticisms on forums and considering it a contribution) it does seem like there's a vocal group of rare- or ex-players that spend an inordinate amount of energy complaining or kicking #### up. Reading this sort of stuff over and over again kinda saps my enthusiasm after a while.

But I don't see why Battle needs 3-4 imms, Why does Nexus? Why does Empire? How many in Outlander and other cabals these days? It's a simple matter of using your staff efficiently. No one is talking about taking on extra cabals, but if you're not even willing to look at the most simplistic solution I'm not sure what sort of message you are trying to send. Do you not more imms than cabals? It would be terrible if something fresh happened on CF.

I think if you or someone else had started out the thread with a post like this, which ostensibly asks the same question as the original one but in a much better manner, it would have been much more likely to generate a good discussion. I mean, I would cut out your last sentence, but it's still a lot better than what seems like yet another long thread against a certain imm that probably donates more of her time than anyone else.

I can't really answer the question as well as the people actually in that position, but this is something that's fairly common in volunteer organizations, of which I do have a fair amount of experience. Essentially, since everything you're doing is for no extrinsic reward (I mean, you can't even write this on a resume) then you're really going to have to Want to do it. That want might be motivated by realizing it's necessary for the game (eg, dealing with immature people in RotD) or it might be because you really enjoy it. For myself, I can't really imagine wanting to play a long-term Fortress imm, because I don't think the cabal is that interesting (ironic, no?). I'd imagine that if I get to 53 and then were forced to make a Fortress imm character I'd probably lose the desire to play pretty quickly and log in less and less.

This isn't a staff in the traditional sense where Zulgh can send me a tell "Hey, we're going to need you to spend your next 1000 hours of free time playing a character you don't like. We lost some people and need to play catch up." and I have to do it if I want to keep my job. Just like playing a mortal in CF, there aren't any rewards for being a mortal, so if it's not fun in the long run, people aren't going to do it. I'm sure everyone was offered a chance to play Scion imm. Obviously nobody else jumped at the opportunity. If the most simplistic solution would have lead to even more burnout for an Imm, I don't think that would have been the most prudent choice.

And while we're talking about the message people are sending, I'm just going to write another little reminder that it would be in Everyone's best interest to try and mellow out a bit before posting on any forum. If only for my sake...reading the constant bitching really makes me more motivated to go out and have a few drinks after the game than come home and try to think of an evil version of the prayer beads quest.

I think Imms do what they can with what they have. The fact that they still put any effort at all into it after so long says something, since they often have to deal with the far more craptastic sides of things instead of just having the fun of playing the game. (annoying prays, cheating, responding to forum questions, fixing bugs...) Even mortal players burn out after a while. Imagine playing ther same character for years and try to say you would really still be enjoying it (no offense to ahtieli, who I actually like as a character and think does well in still putting some effort into it).

So can you blame them if after years they are not logging 5 hours a day? It's not a job, it's a game. They should be allowed to treat it just as those of us playing it do, and not be held to any other standards above to which you hold yourself. You don't want to play, you don't play. You want to be evil, you role evil. You want a certain cabal, you go that way. You get bored, you delete. Just imagine if Imms were like mortals. I think I rolled about 10 characters since thendrell, but most never got past rank 15, the long ones maybe touched thirty, cause the concept just wasn't as good as I originally thought or did not develop. But I can just delete the character, come up with something else, give it a try, and see if that holds my interest. If Imms did that, we'd have a different imm running everything every five minutes, which would be rather chaotic and confusing as hell.

There is simply not enough people and resources to manage everything. Some may take a negative view of things and say one person doing three cabals is bad. I see it as someone is doing it, which is better than none. The mortal leadership can handle most of the day to day stuff, immortal presence is not entirely necessary for every little thing. Look at scion. One Imm really, but two mortal leaders who are both fairly active. And when they go, maybe then the Imm gets involved a little more to fill the spots.

Evil prayer beads quest. Got to love the notion of that.

The attitude of "No one cares, why should I?" is the reason that
many communities in Brooklyn, where I live are complete and utter
####holes.

People throw garbage in the street? #### it, I will too.

Eventually you have a situation where car-fires burn unchecked and
it's not safe to go out at night.

Here's some advice, instead of contributing to the problems, try to
be part of the solution. Grab a broom or roll a leader, but "No RP
Permas" are the CF equivalent of dumping your McDonalds garbage right
out of your car window onto the sidewalk in front of my house.

Thanks.

nt