Hello everyone.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Anti, and I am russian.
No, I am not from russian imperial gank, though I knew them about 10 years ago, or maybe even longer.

Currently, I am a general producer and co-founder of the game development company, and last 14 years I was working as a game designer. In our last project we had only about 9k players online, now I will work on bigger numbers.

Back to CF. I didn't play CF since 2006 year... And now I see that playerbase have decreased. Comparing to 2000 years, it's decreased for 2/3 or so.

I've read many thoughts about that, maybe I will not be original, but since I love CF, I will give my 0.5 kopeck (we don't use cents here, you know .

There is a keyword - hardcore game, hardcore style. This is the key for the playerbase. CF is stylish, interesting, addictive - and extremely hardcore. Actually, almost no one but veterans can play CF. As I see it, CF is made for immortals himself as entertainement for hardcore players that they have for years. New players are almost unable to survive. Should they grow past 10 levels without deaths... they will be mercilessly murdred almost instantly, and they have a very little chances to survive and become hero. They don't know where to get equimpent and they will always be a dead meat to veterans.

Solution - make mud easier and safer for lowlevel players (lowlevel = 30 and below). Put mobs that would warn them about dangers that they can encounter should they leave the safe zone. Remove dangerous\agressive mobs from locations near the cities (bad example - rangers in untamed forest, good example - mage-protector in Balator).

Perhaps consideration of command "PK" is a good idea: if you don't PK (never attacked), you can't be PKlled, can't use most rare things and can't enter explore areas.

Also, I want to share some information. When we realised a referal program, our playerbase increased by 10%. In other words, we got +1k online. What is referal program? It's players who are rewarded by unique scores for their help to the newbies. For those scores they can buy unique items or abilities. I am pretty sure it WILL help.

And lastly, QHCF.
When I've returned to CF (month ago), I've also visited qhcf.net. This is awful, I didn't see so much dirt/trash in years. And I am pretty sure - a huge part of newbies who are visiting qhcf will not play CF after reading all that trash.

Qhcf are your partners or something like that. VIP stuff (probably) respects you and you (immortals) should not ignore such powerful community. Don't be too proud, because this community can be assistance - or destruction. At the moment, I am pretty sure it's more harm than help, but also I am pretty sure it can be a good help.

That's it. In short, cooperate with community and fansites and stop making game for 20 super-good players - make it for everyone. And perhaps then we will head yell in Galadon: "Wide bronze belt only for 500 coppers!".

The day CF offers any kind of in-game benefit for out of game stuff is the day I quit forever. I will never play any multiplayer game where spending money gives you an advantage over people. Mainly because I don't want to be forced to spend money to compete.

If it weren't so easily gamed, I think a referrals-for-pbf would be reasonable, but unfortunately you'd probably just be doing more giving away of free pbs than actually getting real referrrals.

The real question is, where do we get players from? The fact is that 99% of rpg gamers will never want to play CF. And that's okay, it's a niche game, and 1% of all rpg gamers is still a lot (statistics via anus, of course). The problem is getting the attention of those gamers who want what CF has to offer. And making people understand why it would be worth the growing pains to be able to get into the game.

CF differs from most RPGs in two ways. One, characters permanently die. This is huge, and to me the number one thing that makes cf better than practically every game out there. But most people hear RPG and they immediately think "Okay, so I'll build up a characters over years and years" The fact that CF doesn't work this way *and is still about pvp* makes it unique, as far as I know. If people could figure out that hey, permanent death means that I can actually experiment with new character ideas all the time and not just be hopelessly steamrolled by that one guy who has been amassing power for the past decade. Now granted, we (well not me) have skill and knowledge amassed from a decade plus of playing, but there's no technical reason a newbie can't come in and mop the floor with everyone. In any game without permanent death, a sufficiently long-lived character is pretty much unkillable by any new character and it takes months or years of playing catch-up to be competetive. CF may have a learning curve, but in this way it's actually much more newbie friendly than any competetive rpg out there.

The next biggest thing is that CF's RPG element is not a bunch of neurotic, attention-whoring douchebags. Even the greater rpg gaming community only knows about on-line roleplaying from things like WoW's roleplaying servers, which are filled with exactly the kind of wimpy losers who cry buckets when their night-elf named Legolasss gets killed. I think a lot of people's reaction first thought when they see role-playing enforced is "lol fags" and move on without trying the game. One thing I think would help CF is if we could get the idea cross that RP here isn't about being hopelessly attached to your made-up persona, it's mostly about having some cool, achieavable goals, a context for pvp and a world that you can actually influence.

I really think that if we can get those ideas across to people, which is hard since most kids now have grown up with the endless treadmill model of character development, then retaining newbies will be a lot easier. Sure there are things we can do to make CF easier on newbies, but it seems to me that the root of the problem isn't how hard CF is to learn, it's how different it is from what people are used to. To newbies who don't immediately grasp what makes CF awesomely different, there just isn't much incentive to face any learning curve, steep or not. It seems to me that if we can explain what's so great about CF, then convincing people to climb that curve will be much easier and not require a lot of shennanigans (pay for perks, god-mode, etc) to retain new players.

>The day CF offers any kind of in-game benefit for out of game
>stuff is the day I quit forever. I will never play any
>multiplayer game where spending money gives you an advantage
>over people.

I won't even read past this, because obviously you didn't try to read what I wrote. Sorry for my english, perhaps it's too bad.

In short:

a) rewards for referal program must be social and should not affect PKblitiy or game balance;
b) I didn't talk about money at all, nor offered anything about it. No idea why you are thinking referal program = money. No, referal program = advertisement/promotion.

Though making money in on-line games is my specialization.

>a) rewards for referal program must be social and
>should not affect PKblitiy or game balance;

You said and I quote "What is referal program? It's players who are rewarded by unique scores for their help to the newbies. For those scores they can buy unique items or abilities."

Okay, so people are getting unique items or abilities. Those abilities are either useful or useless. If they are useful, then they affect PK. If they are useless, then where's the motivation? Are you just talking about restrung items? I guarantee those will be looted immediately. And if they are locked to the refferer then that's an advantage, unless the item is useless in gameplay, in which case we're back to there being no motivation to get it, because you wouldn't even use it unless you're almost a pure-rp character. To put this in perspective, some people don't even use their leader weapons much, because the weapons aren't as good as other stuff they can get. And leader weapons are far from useless.

Now did you mean helping newbies out IC? If so then it's a language issue because that's not something I would call a referal program. Generally a referral program means you are, outside the game, getting someone to play and then saying "Valkenar sent me" That's what a "referral program" means to me. I can see rewarding people for helping out newbies IC, though that already happens sometimes in small ways (imm exp for being helpful on the newbie channel).

>b) I didn't talk about money at all, nor offered anything
>about it. No idea why you are thinking referal program =
>money. No, referal program = advertisement/promotion.

Referral program = advertisement/promotion = money.

Money is what buys advertisement and promotion. Unless you're talking about astroturfing. That is, if you're talking about people just going out and posting adds on bulletin boards and otherwise spamming up places, that is not money. But hey, if I can pay someone $5 to say they referred me, and I get an item for it, then maybe I do that. And that means I'm basically just buying items with real money, I just have to go through a middleman. And that's paying for advantages.

>>b) I didn't talk about money at all, nor offered anything
>>about it. No idea why you are thinking referal program =
>>money. No, referal program = advertisement/promotion.
>
>Referral program = advertisement/promotion = money.
>
>Money is what buys advertisement and promotion. Unless you're
>talking about astroturfing. That is, if you're talking about
>people just going out and posting adds on bulletin boards and
>otherwise spamming up places, that is not money. But hey, if I
>can pay someone $5 to say they referred me, and I get an item
>for it, then maybe I do that. And that means I'm basically
>just buying items with real money, I just have to go through a
>middleman. And that's paying for advantages.

Are YOU teaching ME about referal program and what is it? )))) Please, don't.

Referal program can be rewarded with a lot of ways. Main goal of referal program is do not invest any money in advertisement of the project. If you can't understand it, or if my language is too bad again: referal programs are often designed with purpose to increase amount of playerbase without additional waste of money.

Referal program is perfect for a free projects or for a projects with a small budgt, which cannot allow to invest money into advertisement.

One thing that, IMO, could be sort of a barrier to newbies is learning to use a client. Or even just coming to the realization that a client will drastically enhance their CF experience.

I can't imagine playing CF without speedwalk, aliases and highlights.

Maybe we should do a better job of emphasizing to new players that, "Hey, you really, really don't wan to use plain telnet. Really."

I switched to zMUD just because all my basic telnets on windows kept having local echo turned off, which is a royal nuisance. I RARELY use aliases, and never put the effort into speedwalks. To a degree, I think that's beneficial. It lets me do all those crazy things like run from Seantryn to Udgaard blind because I've memorized all those stupid turns, and how many steps it should be.

It does make life a hell of alot easier though, which is good up to a point when you're new.

(Of course, back in MY day, we had to walk from one end of the continent to the other, uphill in snow both ways to get to your guild. All with murderous fiends waiting to kill you. Kids these days. They've gone soft!)

Edited to add: Forgot the important part of what I was going to say.

I think alot of what Zulg's done lately is a lot of what keeps me from worrying about a client these days. If I still had to type out the full name of my targets? Bleh. Thanks Zulg!

>I RARELY use aliases...

I don't see how you can play certain classes without aliases. Case in point, some of the templar's strikes for 2h paladins. Or some of the muter spells. It's just too much typing.

>and never put the effort into speedwalks.

You might be misunderstanding what I mean by speedwalk. I just mean being able to put in something like "4n" and having your client send "n;n;n;n". Or you put in something like "nnnenn" and it sends "n;n;n;e;n;n". Saves you having to press the "enter" key between each step.

I support the nature of this post. Providing constructive remedies without a large system-wide shift to provide for smaller enticement.

Reading the responses so far, it seems that the major deterrent to expanding protections is potential veteran abuse. I'd like to throw in a few specific suggestions to see these changes come about:

Extending PK protection

Premise: Allowing newbies to explore in peace until level 20 is a good idea. To expand on it, I'd propose a limited PK system in place from level 11 to 20 that replaces death as we know it to incapacitation. The PK'ed's HP drops to -10 and they must wait several ticks to naturally regenerate. The PK'ed player suffers all normal post-death protocol including con loss, PK protection, and exp loss. The PK'er is able to loot from the victim for the duration they are incapacitated as though a normal PK. Conversely, if the newbie decides to attack any other player while they do not have a PK timer, they lose this protection permanently. In addition, while incapacitated there are echoes sent to explain what is happening, why the newbie is in this state, help files to reference, and an option to forego the regeneration time and be killed and sent to their altar. To deter veterans from choosing this for ulterior motives, all PK-based deaths will induce an exp penalty around 25% of that level's total TNL cost.

Purpose: Does not impede on PK game mechanics. Allows the player to pick up and continue on his way without having to find his corpse which I believe causes a lot of new player frustrations and headaches. If the newbie is attacked, he is able to re-engage and keep protection should he have a fight timer. If the PKer sees the player incapacitated he may choose to be lenient with looting. Or not - it's their decision.

Exploit Potential: Any vet that chooses this option doesn't have anything to gain aside from saving themselves a walk to the shrine. If someone wants to shirk away from getting PK'd - this will make it harder for them to level (but not to the same extent as a mob death). From a newbie standpoint - you don't care about power-leveling and you get to stand up, rest up, and continue. From a vet standpoint, if you want to avoid PK to power level, the exp penalty doesn't help with that.

The Academy Journal

Premise: An object gained after going through the Academy that is given to players who answer 'yes' to being new. This object can be read to consolidate multiple helpfiles into one reference point, like an enhanced version of help newbie. The object has normal maps that a user would normally get when starting. It does not rot upon dropping unless it is not picked up after several ticks. In addition, it is programmed to fire helpful echoes depending on what areas the newbie enters. One example is to echo 'help feanwyn weald' if the newbie exits west out of Galadon. Another example is to warn of aggressive mobs, such as when the newbie enters Emerald Forest, ie: 'Be wary of the boogum nearby, and the Devil's Huntsmen who may be near. Scan first!' An additional idea would be to have the guide spit out echoes with helpful newbie advice. A more interesting idea would be to warn newbies that are PKable when someone that can PK them enters the area if they can be seen by the newbie. To deter veterans from abusing this, the object would only fire off this protection one, two, or three times at most and then lose the benefit.

Purpose: Reminds the newbie to look at it. Teaches the newbie about surrounding areas and potential dangers. Warns of impending attack for the newbie that doesn't spam 'where' and helps to condition the player to constantly check.

Exploit Potential: A veteran player that answers 'yes' to the newbie question is essentially willing to put up with the newbie channel, lack of brief, and trying to game the system only to receive a minor benefit of having the 'Twitchy' edge several times. If the player knows CF, he should be typing 'where' regardless.

Big Brother program

Premise: Add an additional question after a player answers 'yes' to being new that asks 'Would you like an in-game helper?' Add a similar question to players that answer 'no' that asks 'Would you like to be an in-game helper?' New players are able to use a 'who helper' command to see a list of all online helpers and are encouraged to ask them questions. Allow in-game helpers to toggle whether they are in help mode or not. (Edit) Let vets with Imm-determined good behavior receive a benefit to a discounted PBF and/or some additional PBF fields that have an "Imm Rank" - a vote-based grade of the overall impact the character has had in CF. This would incentivize vets that want some Imm feedback to help out the community.

Purpose: Newbie channel is a good step but more often than not if a new player comes to a PK game doesn't want the world to know it and/or may just be too shy to ask a question that they think is too simple to ask over a public channel. An in-game helper system is a simple way to allow helpers to break RP to further the community. It also drastically alleviates fear of the unknown that everyone experiences in any new game setting by feeling like they can bond with a more experienced player directly.

Exploit Potential: I mean - you'd have to be silly to want to try and abuse this. A vet that pretends to be a new player may try to game a character into getting them EQ. Perhaps a log can be kept of requests to punish these players as they advance. An in-game helper takes away some control from the Imm staff and perhaps checks go in for this as well to make sure no vet is trying to abuse a new player.

Honestly that steep learning curve may keep some players out but it sure as hell scares away the kind of player I DON'T want to play with.

Can you imagine if cf was like the chatter on halo?

- raising gold (mostly for buying return and teleport potions and keeping fed)
- keeping "detect invisibility" 24/7 on a class that doesn't have it as a spell or commune
- equipment
: wtf progging gear?!
: "How can I avoid losing my weapons when everyone poisons me?"
: "How the heck can he get an 80 damroll? I can only reach 20 with berserk."
- the ongoing prep race: Vets always have damage reduction and healing options
- learning what surprises the different classes and builds could spring on me as I went through the rank levels.

The Gameplay and Ask an Immortal forums have been wonderful additions to make the game more accessible. I still refer to them regularly.

For basic gear, QHCF has been invaluable. Even if all I can find out is the name of a piece of gear that has the attributes I need, it helps me ask the right questions in game.

The last thing I would say is that our staff has made significant changes to make the game playable for others who do not have a college dorm full of ooc support. The challenge is to get players here to savor the depth of experience CF has to offer.

And you're exactly right, this MUD is freaking impossible to learn if you're brand new to MUDing in general. And even if you're familir with MUDs, it is still a tough game to learn, and it is relentless.

I would like to see newbie players either:
a) protected until level 20
b) Be able to choose PK or non-PK (for the entire duration of the character--even up to level 51)

Now obviously, from a powergame perspective, there would have to be drawbacks to both of these.

Drawbacks:
a) Unable to use any limited equipment. They can hold it in their inventory and identify it. But they'll never be able to use it. Also, it disappears when they log out (and there should be an echo stating this).

b) Can never join a cabal (obviously).

c) Can't loot corpses that aren't their own.

d) There might be some miscellaneous drawbacks too. Unsure of what exactly.


Recently, my mom started playing World of Warcraft. She isn't a hardcore gamer by any means. She was able to pick it up and play it, because she could freely explore the world. She played it for a while, got the hang of it, and now she has immersed herself into the PK realm of the game. I specifically talked to her about it, and she said the PK in WOW is pretty brutal. It's easy to die. Especially if you're a young character (blah blah blah). She said if she hadn't had the opportunity to just learn the game without being PK'd into oblivion, she would have just quit.

I've run into newbies every once in a while in CF. I always wonder if they will make it or not. Or if they will just get ruthlessly murdered while killing trolls in the past, get full looted by some unknown, inconsequential douche-bag character, and subsequently delete; delete... never to return again.

Yes.

> b) Can never join a cabal (obviously).

Why? There could be a special cabal for them (newbie cabal? students cabal?). Players can remain in such cabal until they become PKllers or until they become 31st level.

>Recently, my mom started playing World of Warcraft. She isn't a hardcore gamer by any means. She was able to pick it up and play it, because she could freely explore the world. She played it for a while, got the hang of it, and now she has immersed herself into the PK realm of the game. I specifically talked to her about it, and she said the PK in WOW is pretty brutal. It's easy to die. Especially if you're a young character (blah blah blah). She said if she hadn't had the opportunity to just learn the game without being PK'd into oblivion, she would have just quit.


This is very true, because during last years (3-4 years) WoW was moving toward casuality. Blizzards are smart, they are leaders of the MMO industry not only because they were first. They very well know what they are doing and why. And if we want to increase playerbase, game MUST BE easy for everyone until they stops being newbie players and become somewhat experienced.

Main goal of any game is very simple: take newbie, make him addicted and turn into experienced / hardcore player. It's a strategy of any successful game. And just academy or newbie channel is not enough. Veterans must help new players, and 99,9% of them won't do it without reward (this is life).

I meant more that a newbie player (under the suggestion I posed) shouldn't be allowed to join any current cabals. It just wouldn't make any sense.

If someone is interested in making a cabal of newbies, well, whatever. But I doubt that would ever happen. It doesn't make a lot of sense either. It could be a feasilbe option maybe, if done correctly.

>I would like to see newbie players either:
>a) protected until level 20

The problem with this is that if you make it one way for non-newbies and another way for newbies, then it becomes possible for other people to "notice" who is a newbie and who isn't. If I do a "who group" and see a level 15 guy who's not in my PK, and I'm level 15, then I know he's a newbie. When he eventually ranks to 20 I could then target him as an easy kill.

>b) Be able to choose PK or non-PK (for the entire duration of
>the character--even up to level 51)

My initial reaction to this was "you're freaking crazy", but then I read some of the restrictions below. Even still, having some people be immune to PK would cause a ton of problems.

If I'm a vet who's interested in PK, can I tote around a PK-invulnerable healer to heal me? My enemies will never be able to attack him, so he'll always be able to heal me, word me, etc.

Having a character like this might let you learn the layout of some areas that are dangerous for sub-hero characters, but it wouldn't let you learn jack squat about PK since you're invulnerable anyway.

>wonder if they will make it or not. Or if they will just get
>ruthlessly murdered while killing trolls in the past, get full
>looted by some unknown, inconsequential douche-bag character,
>and subsequently delete; delete... never to return again.

Way back when, I used to be the guy you describe. I'd be happily killing trolls (stacking commands 3-4 deep) and all of a sudden it's like, "Wtfhappened omg i'm dead!"

The first step away from that level of playing was when I started learning "How not to die". I still didn't kill anyone, but I made it my goal to just...not die. So I'd spam where more. I'd actually keep up detect invis. I'd keep return and teleport potions on hand. I'd be aware of the terrain I'm in and take that into account with respect to who can hide there (e.g. rangers in forbidden forest). I'd force myself not to spam commands.

So eventually I got to the point where I wasn't a ghost all the time. Gradually, too, I started learning the layout of areas, where one area ends and another starts, which mobs are aggro to me and which aren't, where all the gear is that I can request, what the stats are on various pieces of gear, etc. Then there came a point where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to start trying to actually kill people now."

I think if I had started playing now, as opposed to way back when, that "omg i'm dead! wtf happened!" phase would have been much shorter. The game is friendlier in many respects, there's the newbie channel, there's the official forums, there's the academy, there's less uber-retarded stuff like masters gating to me and charming me, then forcing me to "rem all;drop all;k healer", etc.

Opting to be a "newbie" all the way to level 51 means you're trying to learn the game.

You could make it so that they cannot cast anything on other people, but can have things cast upon them (because that doesn't really affect anything).

Also, they cannot cast anything on any cabal guardian (or enter any cabal for that matter--like level 10 and below cannot enter cabals).



Let's take a trip to the past for just a moment:

When Carrion Fields began, it was in the 90's somewhere. MUDs were fairly popular then, because it was the only real option for MMORPG, or just online RPG. This is because of the graphical restrictions of games and bandwidth and whatnot.

Now, there are a lot of options available. Carrion Fields needs to make drastic changes to compete with other options out there. Given how popular games without PVP are, I'd say there's a big demand for it.

You can't ignore that fact. Not everyone likes having their adrenaline rushing while fighting PVP. Not everyone likes to play a game where you have to type "where" "where pk" "who pk" like a crack addict.

Edit: Sure, you could say, "Well, I guess CF isn't for those people then." But wouldn't you rather have more people playing and enjoying the game than not? Because if you get someone interested who doesn't have to worry about PVP, then eventually, they will be interested in that side of the game.

Even a veteran could get some use out of non-PVP.

What about stuff like, "Hey you, come over here and spam where while I raid this cabal. Tell me if anybody approaches."

Or how about the newbie who refuses to leave an area so it will repop? You can't kill him because he's invuln to PK.

How is what you're asking any different than say... a fellow lowbie cabal member doing what you're saying?

Also, veteran players aren't going to log on their non-PVP character to help a PVP character. That is just absolutely f***ing retarded. If I'm a veteran, and I can fight other people, and my non-PVP character can't help in anyway other than spamming where and saying when someone is arriving, then I've got some serious problems. If I'm a veteran, I'm trying to help in PVP. Like I said, you're making a lot of stretching accusations about the playerbase now, in ways that make absolutely no sense...


As for the second part... how is that any different than a level 10 character sitting in an area so it won't repop. You can't stop them, can you?

Try and be realistic.

>How is what you're asking any different than say... a fellow
>lowbie cabal member doing what you're saying?

Fellow cabal member at least has to put himself at *some* risk. Maybe the opposing cabal has someone that can come attack him. Maybe the opposing cabal can call in some merc guy looking for a quick kill. Etc.

>Also, veteran players aren't going to log on their non-PVP
>character to help a PVP character.

I wasn't talking about veterans. Was talking about "real" newbies. If I see one online, and I don't have anybody else in my cabal who's fit to do the job, maybe I pay this guy 20 gold to come be my eyes.

Or, maybe I pay him 20 gold to go clear out all the centurions in Imperial Lands. Or maybe I pay him to pay his way past the centurions and just tell me who all is in the Palace. Or if he's a ranger I send him over to the Refuge to give me intel on who's camo'd near there.

>As for the second part... how is that any different than a
>level 10 character sitting in an area so it won't repop. You
>can't stop them, can you?

True. But the level 10 guy will eventually enter PK range, meaning there's at least a possibility for me to make his life miserable if he's an ass to me. Here's just a short list of restrictions you'd have to put on these characters:

1. Can't attack or otherwise affect guild guards.
2. Can't attack or otherwise affect pay centurions.
3. Can't attack or otherwise affect cabal inners and outers.
4. Can't attack or otherwise affect player characters.
5. If they have detect hidden or acute vision it doesn't work against PCs.
6. Not only can they not wear limited stuff, they can't even pick it up.
7. Can't loot or otherwise affect player character corpses.
8. Shifters with air forms can't see player characters during high altitude flight.
9. Healers can't gate to player characters.
10. Conjurers can't use clairvoyance, clairaudience, or tesseract to player characters.
11. Any terrain effects created by newbie invokers do not affect other player characters.

etc. etc.

It would be a huge effort, and undoubtedly some stuff would be missed the first time around, would be abused, then would have to be changed.

With time we could probably get to a point where it would be "pretty difficult" to abuse, but that would take a while, and I'm not sure the payoff is worth it.

Why can't newbies just roll characters with no natural enemies, play conservatively, and be okay with the fact that they're going to take their fair share of deaths?

Re: 6. Not only can they not wear limited stuff, they can't even pick it up.

- They should at least be able to pick them up to identify. That's part of learning the game.



Re: Why can't newbies just roll characters with no natural enemies, play conservatively, and be okay with the fact that they're going to take their fair share of deaths?

- I've rolled a good many characters that should have no natural enemies. But somehow, I always end up getting attacked by random people who never seem to speak or attempt to roleplay or anything.



The point I think you're overlooking is my original point: The game is very difficult to learn; PVP is a huge deterant for true newbies.

How often do you see a newbie get dragged into a group just to "be the third man" and level up to 20, yet they still don't have any clue how to get to the Ashes of Nowhere, yet alone the Forest of Nowhere. Next thing you know, they get killed somewhere, have no idea how to get back to their corpse. By the time they actually figure out their crap returns to the pit, vultures have already come around and jacked the few coins they had, their container is missing, etc etc.



I just don't think you're giving the idea the full credit of the potential it has as a viable option to true newbies.

>I just don't think you're giving the idea the full credit of
>the potential it has as a viable option to true newbies.

And I don't think you're giving his arguments the proper acknowledgement that there are a ####-ton of potential loopholes (and a ####-ton of work), and are basically creating a completely different game to be rebalanced with your proposals.

I have zero interest in anything that seperates it into PK or no PK. Welcome to CF, it's a PK/Roleplaying mud. You don't get to opt out of any part of that.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

That's the problem, imho. You just don't want to increase PB and you are happy with current numbers. If so, no one can do anything here, and I'm finished with this. You are the boss here, it's your toy and if you enjoy 20-30 players online - that's your business.

But it was much more funnier and interesting to play with 80-100 players online, and I'm pretty sure it would be a lot more interesting with 300-400 players online. It's possible to do, but it will require changes which you, obviously, won't allow.

>That's the problem, imho. You just don't want to increase PB
>and you are happy with current numbers.

I can guarantee you this isn't true.

What he's unwilling to do is make fundamental changes to the game in order to attract more players. With "fundamental" meaning "this change makes it an entirely different game".

I hope so.

I don't see fundamental changes here, though, except maybe for PK on / PK off modes.

Everything else are not fundamental changes. Especially referal program. Yes, it requires coding and thinking, but it will not change anything, except for adding free and effective advertisement (we had 12-15% of players who was coming through referal program, and they were most persistant players; almost 100% of them was staying in the game, because they had friends-mentors, who invited them).

Re: referrals.

How do you prevent someone "gaming" the system in order to falsely acquire in-game benefits?

Say the benefit is X. I'm a vet and X gives me some PK advantage, so I really want it. So I convince my vet buddy to pose as a new player and collect my referral bonus.

How does the staff determine that my vet buddy is, in fact, not a brand new player?

Do I still get the referral bonus if this guy rolls a character then deletes 5 hours later?

What about if he rolls the character, then just periodically logs on once a week to keep from auto-deleting, but never actually plays?

etc.

> Say the benefit is X. I'm a vet and X gives me some PK advantage...

Those benefits grants only non-PK advantages. In our game, it's mostly things that rises status of the player, or utility things.

> So I convince my vet buddy to pose as a new player and collect my referral bonus. How does the staff determine that my vet buddy is, in fact, not a brand new player?

There are some ways. First and easiers - we are logging IP adresses. Yes, it's avoidable, but if you are playng CF constantly, you will have problems with changing IP everything. Besides, your buddy will have to level up = waste time on you. Will you and your friend be ready to risk catch character denial or even IP ban? Especially if you are playing invoker, or a fire giant? You will know that you are risking to lose everything. So, yes. You can avoid it, but it shouldn't worth it.

> Do I still get the referral bonus if this guy rolls a character then deletes 5 hours later?

In our project - no. You will receive bonus soon as player reaches 10 level, 20 and 30 (we had only 11 level, though, but it would take about 1,5-2 years to reach 11th level).

> What about if he rolls the character, then just periodically logs on once a week to keep from auto-deleting, but never actually plays?

Same. You receive bonus once per his achievements.

>I don't see fundamental changes here, though, except maybe for
>PK on / PK off modes.

And that is a major one.

>Everything else are not fundamental changes. Especially
>referal program.

Also, I want to share some information. When we realised a referal program, our playerbase increased by 10%. In other words, we got +1k online. What is referal program? It's players who are rewarded by unique scores for their help to the newbies. For those scores they can buy unique items or abilities. I am pretty sure it WILL help.

This actually is a fundamental change, becuase you are asking us to give in-game rewards for out-of-game behavior. Something that we have never done, and don't plan to do. It's the same reason that CF continues to be FREE, and you can't pay to get some uber character, or uber gear, or whatever.

I don't have a problem with a referral system, but you wouldn't see rewards based on it at all (especially with the ease of gaming the system through your buddies, dynamic IP addresses and proxies).

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>>I don't see fundamental changes here, though, except maybe
>for
>>PK on / PK off modes.
>
>And that is a major one.

Yes, this is why I said except for. This is a big change.

>
>>Everything else are not fundamental changes. Especially
>>referal program.
>
>Also, I want to share some information. When we realised a
>referal program, our playerbase increased by 10%. In other
>words, we got +1k online. What is referal program? It's
>players who are rewarded by unique scores for their help to
>the newbies. For those scores they can buy unique items or
>abilities. I am pretty sure it WILL help.
>
>This actually is a fundamental change, becuase you are asking
>us to give in-game rewards for out-of-game behavior.
>Something that we have never done, and don't plan to do. It's
>the same reason that CF continues to be FREE, and you
>can't pay to get some uber character, or uber gear, or
>whatever.

There can be different rewards. As I said, we don't reward our players with something that would help in PK. No, this is a status rewards - for example, it can be a special text color in chat. Or special possibility for character description. Special abilities here, on the forums. And etc etc etc.

>
>I don't have a problem with a referral system, but you
>wouldn't see rewards based on it at all (especially with the
>ease of gaming the system through your buddies, dynamic IP
>addresses and proxies).

It's all can be solved. And profit will be much more than possible harm (though I don't think there can be a serious harm if you will reward players with something, that will not affect PKbility).

>>>Everything else are not fundamental changes. Especially
>>>referal program.
>>
>>Also, I want to share some information. When we realised
>a
>>referal program, our playerbase increased by 10%. In other
>>words, we got +1k online. What is referal program? It's
>>players who are rewarded by unique scores for their help to
>>the newbies. For those scores they can buy unique items or
>>abilities. I am pretty sure it WILL help.
>>
>>This actually is a fundamental change, becuase you are
>asking
>>us to give in-game rewards for out-of-game behavior.
>>Something that we have never done, and don't plan to do.
>It's
>>the same reason that CF continues to be FREE, and you
>>can't pay to get some uber character, or uber gear, or
>>whatever.
>
>There can be different rewards. As I said, we don't reward our
>players with something that would help in PK. No, this is a
>status rewards - for example, it can be a special text color
>in chat. Or special possibility for character description.
>Special abilities here, on the forums. And etc etc etc.

Now all you are doing is blending the OOC forums with the IC of the game, which is another thing we completely frown on.



>>I don't have a problem with a referral system, but you
>>wouldn't see rewards based on it at all (especially with the
>>ease of gaming the system through your buddies, dynamic IP
>>addresses and proxies).
>
>It's all can be solved. And profit will be much more than
>possible harm (though I don't think there can be a serious
>harm if you will reward players with something, that will not
>affect PKbility).

Show me a system that you can't just completely game, that doesn't affect gameplay at all, and I'll think about it. I have a feeling that doesn't really exist.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>Show me a system that you can't just completely game, that
>doesn't affect gameplay at all, and I'll think about it. I
>have a feeling that doesn't really exist.

Since I am working in free-to-pay games and this is our business, I barely know free games. But I will ask my partners and colleagues and we will try to find free games with good referal programs.

But again, I don't think that special color text in chat, or extended description, or other social things (for example - special equpement slots that make character looks better, but gives nothing except for the good looking).

Or a rating of players, which is an extremely good motivation tool. Yes, you will have to link CF characters to some global DB, but it's worth it.

>
>>Everything else are not fundamental changes. Especially
>>referal program.
>>
> There can be different rewards. As I said, we don't reward our players with something that would help in PK. No, this is a status rewards - for example, it can be a special text color in chat. Or special possibility for character description. Special abilities here, on the forums. And etc etc etc.

PBFs would make sense to give out as rewards for driving traffic to cf. Shouldn't be anything in-game, that'd just be against the spirit of the game.

That being said, most affiliates out there want money in return for driving traffic to CF. This means that we'd pretty much be relying on the current playerbase as start-up affiliates.. which means we need to know how much interest and competence there is out there to see if it's worth the effort of implementing a referral program.

Something else that ocurred to me...

Lots of vets would avoid ranking with the non-PK guys, because newbies usually aren't the most effective ranking partners. Plus, how would a no-PK healer, muter, or bard contribute to his group if he can't use his skills on player characters?

>Something else that ocurred to me...
>
>Lots of vets would avoid ranking with the non-PK guys, because
>newbies usually aren't the most effective ranking partners.

I would. And I'm sure many others would too. It's learning, after all, and they would know that they are helping someone to learn the game. Or probably they would be unable to group with each other.

>Plus, how would a no-PK healer, muter, or bard contribute to
>his group if he can't use his skills on player characters?

They wouldn't be able to, and it's a good and natural reason to leave safe mode Some classes could be not available for newbies, too. Some classes could be not available to remain in safe mode. Bards, healers, transmuters and invokers, perhaps?

I don't argue, there are a lot ofdifficulties, but all those difficulties can be solved (if immstuff will want it).

>- They should at least be able to pick them up to identify.
>That's part of learning the game.

I can see your argument here. How about this:

1. When a newbie picks up limited gear it acquires a ~5 hour crumble timer.

2. The gear leaving the newbie's possession (either by dropping or giving to another player character) cancels this timer. This would make it so people could still hand the newbie gear to identify.

Alternately- make it so that the identify/lore/etc. skills can be used to identify gear currently worn by another player character, as long as that other character trusts the person doing the identifying.

>- I've rolled a good many characters that should have no
>natural enemies. But somehow, I always end up getting attacked
>by random people who never seem to speak or attempt to
>roleplay or anything.

Sure. I wasn't trying to suggest that would never happen. But I think you can minimize it.

>somewhere, have no idea how to get back to their corpse. By
>the time they actually figure out their crap returns to the
>pit, vultures have already come around and jacked the few
>coins they had, their container is missing, etc etc.

Sounds like a good argument for playing a wood elf. Yeah, I realize this stuff happens. Eventually people need to figure out how to deal with it. Generally speaking, a newbie's gear is going to be so crappy nobody will really want to loot it. Typically they'll lose coins and *maybe* a piece or two of gear. Not because people are kind, but because it's just not worth anything to anybody.

Also, the hardest aspect of the game isn't necessarily learning PVP. I think learning areas and getting general game knowledge, how to interact with certain things, learning about preps... pretty much all the intangible things outside of PVP, is a whole lot harder.

I just don't think PVP is the hardest learning curve of this game. But I think it is the most deterant aspect of this game.

I think I would be pretty discouraged as a newbie right now. But the thing about newbies is that, eventually, you stop being a newbie. And there are class/cabal combos available to newbies that "mostly" remove them from getting constantly trashed in PK.

Neutral herald bard. Fortress healer. Etc. I could see a newbie playing a couple of these type characters and learning the overall world map, learning some key areas, maybe figuring out some halfway-decent gear and/or preps. Then trying to dive into PK as more of an "educated newbie".

Re: making the game safe until 30. That seems too extreme. I could see maybe 15 or 20 because, realy, sub-20 PK is pretty uninteresting. But 20+ is when stuff really starts to happen, and it seems like overkill to remove that aspect of the game.

Re: referrals. I'd oppose any sort of in-game perk for referrals. The most I could see is something like, "get a free PBF if you refer someone". But then, since CF doesn't do any sort of authentication (e.g. via credit card), how would the staff know if a given referral was "real" or "fake"?

Re: qchf: Yeah. Lots of it is annoying. But there's some good stuff mixed in with the crap. Most staff would like to see Dio's go away. Personally, I wouldn't really mind if it did. But I don't see it happening any time soon.

It might help newer players to get a handle on the game by adding more protections when they answer yes to this question when rolling their character. For instance, the pk protection could be expanded from 10 to 20 or even 30.

Another idea would be to make aggro mobs verbally threaten these characters instead of attack them. Basically, give them a one time chance to leave before getting killed.

Restrictions should be placed on this type of character to prevent these protections from being exploited by experienced players, of course. Like no stat gains beyond a certain point (assuming newbies are going to be trying to spam train skills/spells) and no wearing gear over a certain level. I'm sure you all can think of other restrictions that wouldn't hamper a newbie but would deter a vet from exploiting this aspect of the game.

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Because you would gain something for your bravery.

It could be an XP bonus, or something else - imm xp? Edge? Edge points? Special reward for each PK, and a lot of other things.

Then that just gives a little boost to vets. Which is the opposite of what we're trying to do.

Learning which mobs are aggro an which aren't...is really the least of a newbie's problems.

Learn what is aggresive and dangerous is not equal to dying to them from 1-2 hits. This is what I think is bad - to disappoint, demoralize players. At the beginning, EVERYTHING must be quick.
Remember IDDQD? It is what makes players to stay in game. Also, It's not my opinion, it's statistically proven fact. And slowly, the better they know game, the lesser IDDQD they have.

>Remember IDDQD?

I don't even know what that stands for.

Godmode code from Doom II.

nt

I'm not a fan of the genre in general.

I think as it is now you can't turn on brief descriptions. That to me is a deterent as I hate the long descriptions.

Also, I want to pk as soon as possible. Hell, I'd pk at level 5 if I could. I wouldn't want to be out of the mix until level 20 or 30. This restriction would also make it difficult to get into certain cabals, which is ok when you are learning the game. I would recommend staying out of cabals as a new player until you have a hang on things, except herald.

I want to be able to wear good armor when I find it. I hate that it poofs if I forget to remove it before quiting in the newbie range. Although, I'm not complaining. I understand why this is in place.

You could add in area restrictions too.

As creative as the staff is I am sure they could come up with a list of other deterents and restrictions placed on saying yes to this question that would make it unattractive and a hassle for an experienced player but useful to a newbie.

nt

>I think I would be pretty discouraged as a newbie right now.
>But the thing about newbies is that, eventually, you stop
>being a newbie. And there are class/cabal combos available to
>newbies that "mostly" remove them from getting constantly
>trashed in PK.

Yes, right. In that case, while new player are creating character, there must be more detailed hint than now. Good explaination of what he must do to remain safe as much as possible.

>
>Re: making the game safe until 30. That seems too extreme. I
>could see maybe 15 or 20 because, realy, sub-20 PK is pretty
>uninteresting. But 20+ is when stuff really starts to happen,
>and it seems like overkill to remove that aspect of the game.

Maybe 20, yes. My point was that 10 is too few. Also, I think that players below 10-20 levels must be not allowed to enter dangerous places. In my opinion, main goal - to save them from the negative emotions until they are enjoying the game (addicted).

For example, we are not selling anything to the players if their level isn't equal to 20th level in CF or higher.

>
>Re: referrals. I'd oppose any sort of in-game perk for
>referrals. The most I could see is something like, "get a
>free PBF if you refer someone". But then, since CF doesn't do
>any sort of authentication (e.g. via credit card), how would
>the staff know if a given referral was "real" or "fake"?

It's simple. We are rewarding only for players, who are reaching certain levels. For every level we are giving special scores. We don't give special scores for characters, IP adress of whose = IP adress of recruiter. Yes, it may be avoided sometimes. But if you will reward only for 30th, 40th and 51st levels, it will be be almost pointless to cheat that way.

>
>Re: qchf: Yeah. Lots of it is annoying. But there's some
>good stuff mixed in with the crap. Most staff would like to
>see Dio's go away. Personally, I wouldn't really mind if it
>did. But I don't see it happening any time soon.

Totally agreed. But you CAN solve it buy extreme hard moderation. Also, I suggest to rename (VIP) into (Moderator). It will be a good beginning and probably will decrease distention betweel "vip-players"/"veterans" and newbie players.