Two classes that are pretty rare (I think) compared to other more instant gratification classes like warriors and shifters.

Invoker:

The days of when invokers with 2000 hp taking grazes while geysers doing UNSPEAKS are gone. As far as I understand they used to be balanced somewhat by the investment of time that it takes to bring one up to hero. I don't think this is needed anymore so my suggestion is to remove the requirement to perfect spells OR lower it to 90%.

Conjurer:

Now, there was quite a while ago I tried an evil conjie and I might have some data mixed up with a neutral one. But one fact that made it less fun to play one is that a devil/demon can turn on you when you are enough damaged. Roleplay wise it is a wash, yes evil beings would like to turn on you but one can argue that darkbind is strong enough to prevent it. So my suggestion is to make it impossible for a servitor to turn on you while being darkbound. It would also make it more likely for a conjie to stay in close fights.

Comments, suggestions, insults? Or even more ideas?

Should they be able to take someone to a no_recall area? I know it has always been like that but it is slightly boring to see a level 40-42ish groupmate taken away in two DEMO-slaps from a nightgaunt to more or less certain death in a no_recall maze. It really just enforces the conjurer habit of picking on the weak.

Thoughts?

He could have recalled from where he died. It is not a no-recall spot.

Actually I did not, this happened yesterday. I just feel that the mechanic is pretty boring in itself and the tough will beat it or change hometown if they feel it is a problem, but others will have no chance of escaping really as you cannot teleport away from a gaunt.

And of course the various ways to avoid being gaunted in the first place (some of which require you to go to a no-recall area where the conjurer may find you anyway, but others of which do not).

Succumbing as a non rager warrior that gets ambushed by nightgaunt to a conjurer with 7+ ranks on him sounds like semi-suicide. You could always quaff a pwk potion instead, then you know where your corpse is at least.

And yes, you can avoid getting gaunted but in reality it is just more fun to quit if you play a char that cannot handle the gaunt thrown at you.

Not that I expect something to change, it is a relatively small window where you are a free(ish) kill and one can always change hometown to another continent (if this still works) or rank when a conjie is not on.

>Succumbing as a non rager warrior that gets ambushed by
>nightgaunt to a conjurer with 7+ ranks on him sounds like
>semi-suicide.

It depends. If you think you're going to be taken by the nightgaunt, you might as well go with more HP instead of less.

I've also seen people use succumb and then either kill or otherwise incapacitate the conjurer.

There is a way that anyone can shake the gaunt. No matter where they live. Only ragers don't really have a way to avoid it, and if they succumb, they've got a decent chance of escape or victory.

>Should they be able to take someone to a no_recall area?

Yup.

Otherwise, nightgaunts would only really be worth anything against Battle or if you had a huge gang waiting.

Or if lash landed or you could make gaunts lag the victim 2 rounds when it drops them of. But sure I agree with you that more would get away.

Right now it is the ultimate newbie killing mechanism. I guess actually escaping from the gaunt by quaffing teleport is out of the question too? i.e. it only gates to you in the area.

Nightgaunts are pretty weak. You can dispatch them with a party. You can't be nightgaunted out of your cabal. If you're in a city, the conjurer will get a (wanted) flag. You can't be nightgaunted from a different continent, or from underwater. When you are retrieved, you can flee from the conjurer, and run away.

It's not really hard to avoid dying to a nightgaunt.

Once you know what you are doing, your servitors don't turn on you often. Generally they only kill you when something went wrong first. Sure, another character would often survive the mistake, but if you don't make the mistakes, you don't tend to get killed by your servitors.

"If you don't make the mistakes, you don't tend to get killed by your servitors."

Too much depends on fighting opponents who can't cause you or your servitors much damage. You might as well say, "oh, just have a/b/s and stoneskin and despoil for every fight and you're a wrecking ball"... That's what everyone is saying. You're right, fighting otherwise is making a mistake.

>You might as well say, "oh, just
>have a/b/s and stoneskin and despoil for every fight and
>you're a wrecking ball"... That's what everyone is saying.
>You're right, fighting otherwise is making a mistake.

That's certainly not what I'm saying, but we already know that you and I disagree here.

I'd love it if you actually experienced the following scenario:

Evil conjurer with 700 hps without barrier, an angry on arrival demon, and several pvp situations where you have to flee.



On Carrionfields, that's what the average pvp environment is. For an evil conjurer, it means you're going to kill yourself.



The fact is, you expect conjurers to be played like this:
1. Conjure massive & happy servants.
2. Prep up with despoil, a/b/s, stoneskin, and protection_align
3. Spend time making servants happy.
4. In the window of time where your servants are happy, wreck house.
5. Don't flee.
6. Don't get hurt.
7. Don't get your servants hurt.
8. Spend time making your servants happy.


Why would I go through ANY of that? Why don't I take up cross-stitching as a hobby instead? Tedious, menial, laborious and frustrating. Read the writing on the wall Nep! Nobody is playing them because they're not fun to play.

Seriously guys. Seriously.

What do 5 and 6 have to do with demons? Other than not going dangerously low with a challengna?

I do agree with my experience with evil conjie that it is much harder getting them happy and keeping them that way, but I'm also still new to them, and need more work primarily in getting them happy for the long term of the duration they are with me...and keeping good places in mind through Thera to job through as I patrol to keep them grinnin.

>What do 5 and 6 have to do with demons? Other than not going
>dangerously low with a challengna?


It lowers the happiness of your servants.

EG: Someone attacks you, you flee. Your servants get pissed off that you fled and attack you for it.

Devils, yes...and there are the echos from them to indicate it.

I haven't ever seen anything to indicate that demons care anything about if you flee or not...is this something from your observation and assumption? Or is there something else out there you see that from?

From demons, I've been thinking that they have a steady degrade on thier happiness as long as they aren't being made happy, and then damage that is done to them will also lower it, but I haven't ever seen anything to indicate other things that will displease them.

I'd say you are not doing things right if an angry demon on arrival is causing you a problem. I NEVER died to a demon that was angry on arrival.

My concerns with an angry arrival demon are the exact same as with an angry arrival angel. Be glad I almost always make strong circles, make damn sure I get enough mana to land the first bind attempt, and make sure that when the time for the binding to break is coming close, I have a circle ready so it can't remember it didn't like me when it arrived.

The main different between angels and demons for me are the parts in between everything above.

Relatively strong circle if I was conjuring a strong'ish demon. Say, 100-300 extra mana, depending on other factors. (I always conjure the demon/devil ahead of the elemental, so I have both together for the max time.)

Conjure demon. If I am going to blow ALL my mana on the conjuration, I'll put 400 into the circle. I will also slow myself just before I conjure the demon.

I will then attempt to darkbind with about 200 extra mana. I've never known this not to succeed in time.

If I don't have lots of mana, I'll get the demon killed in action. If I have lots, I'll typically hope I've made it happier, and dismiss it with a fairly strong dismissal. I've been relatively successful with either 500 extra mana in the dismissal, or 200 extra on multiple attempts. (Set wimpy to zero as soon as your demon turns on you, so you don't just wimpy around unable to attempt dismissals.)

I also let my mana build up when not conjuring, rather than spamming it all away on magic missile, flash, and warp dimension. These are all great spells, but as an evil, I use them more sparingly than I would as a good. Warp dimension is very good if you are trying to avoid fleeing though.

An alternative, if I have decent mana, is to make a strong circle (say 300-400) and just wait for the demon to go. Meanwhile I sleep so as to be able to have mana to dismiss if it breaks through.

I've never played a scion conjie, therefore never despoiled.

I don't use stoneskin.

I will play differently as a conjie to other characters. So I will stay and fight in situations where otherwise I'd hit and run (to keep devil happy, say). But all in all, evil conjies do work.

They work but are they as fun as they could be? Would you actually mind if servants did not betray you and did not get as pissy as easily? Would you suddenly become overpowered?

With this thread becoming confrontational I assume there will be even less chance for chance than before, but it would be fun for those classes to become slightly more accessible.

>They work but are they as fun as they could be? Would you
>actually mind if servants did not betray you and did not get
>as pissy as easily? Would you suddenly become overpowered?

Playing evil conjurer, I feel like I would.

Consider the gauntlet thrown.

It may work for you playstyle, but I'd still bet it is one of the least played classes.

I find that it adds to the flavour of playing an evil conjie. You have to think about how to keep those servitors under control.

There's a reason you get the scrying spells and/or the raven familiar.

If you don't know where there's a pile of mobs to kill to make a given servitor happy before quickly running off to your destination, that's your fault. You are not supposed to conjure them and happily run off to battle right after, and if you aren't sure that you can get to a fight you shouldn't be conjuring at all.

You just want to be able to have a larger margin for error on a class that, as an evil alignment CAN TAKE OUT ANY OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME NO MATTER HOW WELL GEARED IT IS.

No, just, no.

Looking at the premium battleground through qhcf's search:

2 evil conjurers over 100 kills, Kanaev with 281(0.4467 PKpH) and Razmorthin with 126 (0.3265). Both scions.

Only evil:
15 anti-paladins
11 assassins (with another one very close)
7 bards (with another one very close)
5 orcs
0 healers
4 invokers
7 necromancers (with 3 more being very close)
2 rangers
12 shamans
6 shifters
4 thieves
2 muters (with another being decently close)
32 warriors

So, why arent there more conjurers that racking up kills or is just destroying his enemies? You will have a hard time selling me on that the lich would be scared of a conjie for example. Or that the conjie assaults destructor with 2+ defenders like AP's have in the past.

If what you are stating is true then the class is overpowered but is balanced by being boring and tedious. Why not just tone down what is overpowered then and make them more fun to play?

So I didn't actually know about Razmorthin until this thread. I did a little research as to who this "successful" evil conjurer was and I came across this first.


http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=17&topic_id=8185&mesg_id=8185&listing_type=search

The very first example of him I find is him cheating with the infamous nofol pet bug =). Awesome. Give us back this bug, and evil conjurers are playable again? The only two evil conjurers to get above 100 kills abused a bug to get rid of their unhappy servitors. I think that's a pretty impressive fact in the face of everyone who says this class is "fine" and "l2p".

...and man you were. And his only evil conjurer beat a tremendous amount of ass and since I rolled with him 12/3.5 (half of 24/7, we weren't a perma as much I wished us to be) he hardly ever had angry servitors. And the times he did he surely died.

Face Josiah, you just suck at conjurers. YET YOU KEEP PLAYING THEM AND BITCHING. That's the definition of insanity.

Is this really your argument?

1. You practically perma'd with the guy.
2. I suck.
3. He was 10x better.
4. He didn't abuse the nofol pet bug (even though he clearly did).
5. I'm insane.




Compelling facts.

Other than only two conjurers have over 100 pks?

Honestly.

>Other than only two conjurers have over 100 pks?
>
>Honestly.


This is like beating a dead horse....

"and they both cheated"

>There's a reason you get the scrying spells and/or the raven
>familiar.
>
>If you don't know where there's a pile of mobs to kill to make
>a given servitor happy before quickly running off to your
>destination, that's your fault. You are not supposed to
>conjure them and happily run off to battle right after, and if
>you aren't sure that you can get to a fight you shouldn't be
>conjuring at all.
>
>You just want to be able to have a larger margin for error on
>a class that, as an evil alignment CAN TAKE OUT ANY OTHER
>CLASS IN THE GAME NO MATTER HOW WELL GEARED IT IS.
>
>No, just, no.


You're obviously wrong. Evil conjurers are not powerhouses (now). It's obviously not easy to keep servitors happy in pvp because nobody has EVER done it consistantly with an evil conjurer. Kanaev and Raz abused a bug to get around the whole servant turning thing, and nobody except for them has lasted much more than 100 hours before rage deleting out of frustration. I can level sit all year and wipe out leveling groups in the 20s and 30s and I won't have proven a thing about the playability of the class. Impressive offense, Impressive utility, Laughable survivability.

I've played evil conjie, and I've figured out how to overcome your problems. You apparently have not. That doesn't mean that evil conjie is either a deathtrap or unplayable.

I don't need no-fol to handle evil servitors.

You clearly just piss them off big-time, AND you can't handle them when they are angry (which isn't that hard).

Their survivability is just fine. Unless you plan on always using demons vs ragers when you have no protections. You may, however, need to show minimal tactics such as letting your enemy come to you sometimes so that your servitors are already wiht you, and will therefore assist pretty quickly.

The proof is in the pudding, and you don't have any proof. Show us your 100 kill conjurer. That's the tangible "real" challenge.


Also check your facts mate:
It's irrelevant if your servitor is in the room or arriving, they will assist or attack on their own clock. On an initial engagement, having them in the same room as you will not make them assist any faster. That's just ignorance.

Using a demon vs a rager is situational. I'm not even going to get into it, because you're just being an idiot.

>The proof is in the pudding, and you don't have any proof.
>Show us your 100 kill conjurer. That's the tangible "real"
>challenge.
>
>

Not really. I never make 100 kill characters, and yet most people don't dispute that I know what I'm doing with most classes. Mainly because if I kill someone easily, I don't bother killing them again.

In fact, without knowing the evil conjie I played, people did comment that this conjie knew what they were doing.

I was also, for example, the conjie that people complained about my special quest skills that let me see duo. Whereas I was just using the basic conjie skillset. I can tell from what you've written that I do have a better grasp on conjies (including evil) than you, despite you having played numerous ones.

>Also check your facts mate:
>It's irrelevant if your servitor is in the room or arriving,
>they will assist or attack on their own clock.

No, it isn't irrelevant. For example, once your demon has engaged the enemy, it will attack them on sight. So walking into the room will mean it will only attack when it follows, whilst waiting for them to come to you means it will strike first.

> On an initial
>engagement, having them in the same room as you will not make
>them assist any faster. That's just ignorance.
>

Except I've just given you the proof above.

>Using a demon vs a rager is situational. I'm not even going
>to get into it, because you're just being an idiot.

People have commented that my evil conjie knew his stuff. They just don't know that it was me playing it. I think Isildur can back me up on that because I think it was to him that the comments were made, and he knew who I was playing.

You can make your servitors happy pretty fast if you choose. It's not a major chore. So they will engage pretty quickly.

I will do a 100+ pk evil conjie for you. Even if I don't manage to find sleeks.

When I've done this, will you please stop playing conjurers, or stop complaining about them?

Just because I'd like to see it. I'm not really on either side of the fence on this issue, but I do find this issue somewhat compelling. Some people are talking about the extreme deathfulness of an evil conjurer, and the PBF history of said class/align does indicate that there have been SOME players who have been pretty wicked, but at the same time for all the talk of how crazy powerful they are, there seem to be very few evil conjurer heroes who I would consider great.

It seems that this class/align combo does seem to have a lacking number of heroes as well, and perhaps that's due to frustration.

Keep in mind I'm basing this solely on historical observations.

Because you do die to your mobs when you make mistakes.

Also, conjies are the most deathful against weak enemies. A guy 7-8 levels below you will not only be worse equipped as they always is but they will also try to parry your servitors that will be 10 levels above them.

So an evil conjie that gaunts and attacks easy targets should be able to rack up kills. That is some of the problems with the class, way to uneven in its power.

>Also, conjies are the most deathful against weak enemies. A
>guy 7-8 levels below you will not only be worse equipped as
>they always is but they will also try to parry your servitors
>that will be 10 levels above them.
>
>So an evil conjie that gaunts and attacks easy targets should
>be able to rack up kills. That is some of the problems with
>the class, way to uneven in its power.

I like you because you say the same things I have said.

Because you change what you say all the time.

Evil conjies are too weak. They only work if they cheat. Oh wait, they are too strong. You need to stop them gaunting. Yeah, that's it. Make them like good conjies. Oh wait. I said they were too strong too!

If you are talking about me I don't think I've changed what I think. I can summarize:

I feel that evil conjies are frustrating to play and too much time goes to preparing and catering to your servitors. The style also caters to totally overpowering your enemies either by prepping like hell or targeting weak ones.

So my suggestions is to make evil conjies less frustrating to play and if that makes them overpowered then nerf them until they are balanced.

I haven't seen anything inconsistent from you. He, however, is complaining about evils being too strong at stuff they can do that goodies can't, and too weak at stuff that goodies can do that they can't.

>I haven't seen anything inconsistent from you. He, however,
>is complaining about evils being too strong at stuff they can
>do that goodies can't, and too weak at stuff that goodies can
>do that they can't.

What the hell? I've never even come close to saying anything of the sort.

All I can say is...Kanaev beat me like a red-headed step-child.

He fought Hunsobo to a stalemate, and he was pretty near the apogee of the warrior class.

>I will do a 100+ pk evil conjie for you. Even if I don't
>manage to find sleeks.
>
>When I've done this, will you please stop playing conjurers,
>or stop complaining about them?


It's about time you manned up. Good for you. Do it.

I'll buy the pbf.

I'll work on doing just that too in the next few months if you agree never to play the class again so we don't have to hear any more of your horridly misguided musings.

>I'll work on doing just that too in the next few months if
>you agree never to play the class again so we don't have to
>hear any more of your horridly misguided musings.


Hey man, I didn't bring up this arguement this time. It's true that I brought up the fact that no successful & legit evil conjurers have ever existed before, but someone else reached this conclusion on their own again.

That's called a PREMISE sir. When your premise is an irrefutable fact, you've got yourself a good arguement, not a "musing". Musing is when you say, "Josiah, you suck, l2p." or "Raz was 10x the conjurer you were". That's called conjecture and misguided musing =).

That there would be a lot of people capable of and willing to do this if they thought it would actually be followed with. (russian smiley face)

Because I am already certain that I can do it, without wands and without cabal powers if I have to.

You might do better to keep your trap shut on this one.

Has a lot of people like you.

Big ego, little brain, nothing to say. Try rebutting what we've got to say.

Keep living in your own world though.

Oddly enough, all my conjurers have always been neutral, just so I can play with all the servitors...and I honestly get angels turning on me faster than anything else.

Demons are easy, just let them smash things and they mostly don't care what. Angels get all pissy when you hurt goods, pissy when you're not hurting evils, and are just uptight to begin with. *mutter*

>I'd love it if you actually experienced the following
>scenario:
>
>Evil conjurer with 700 hps without barrier, an angry on
>arrival demon, and several pvp situations where you have to
>flee.

What makes you think I haven't?

>On Carrionfields, that's what the average pvp environment is.

It's not for me.

>The fact is, you expect conjurers to be played like this:

Don't speak for me.

As an evil conjie, I only died to my own servitors by:
- deciding to dismiss them when I could have just waited for them to go, thereby pissing them off and running out of mana.
- losing a group member to a deathtrap, thereby getting stuck taking way too much damage in an explore area
- exploring when at half health whilst with a demon, and taking a wrong step into an aggro mob. Then deciding to look at, and consider, the mob before I fled.

>Two classes that are pretty rare (I think) compared to other
>more instant gratification classes like warriors and shifters.
>
>
>Invoker:
>
>The days of when invokers with 2000 hp taking grazes while
>geysers doing UNSPEAKS are gone. As far as I understand they
>used to be balanced somewhat by the investment of time that it
>takes to bring one up to hero. I don't think this is needed
>anymore so my suggestion is to remove the requirement to
>perfect spells OR lower it to 90%.

Ultimately my feeling is... a 5 path invoker is viable and doesn't really have spam time.

There's been talk now and again of making it so that you can't play a 7 path invoker, either literally or by making it take X amount of affinity to get the shield or later spells in a path. I think you'd be more likely to see that change.

>Conjurer:
>
>Now, there was quite a while ago I tried an evil conjie and I
>might have some data mixed up with a neutral one. But one fact
>that made it less fun to play one is that a devil/demon can
>turn on you when you are enough damaged. Roleplay wise it is a
>wash, yes evil beings would like to turn on you but one can
>argue that darkbind is strong enough to prevent it. So my
>suggestion is to make it impossible for a servitor to turn on
>you while being darkbound. It would also make it more likely
>for a conjie to stay in close fights.

In some ways I may be in the minority here, but I think a well-played evil conjurer is so overwhelmingly powerful (and, especially for a devil conjurer, could realistically never look for any A/B/S and never miss it) that I'm hesitant to make them any stronger.

>Ultimately my feeling is... a 5 path invoker is viable and
>doesn't really have spam time.

I disagree, having recently played an almost 4 path invoker. There were plenty of spells I had to spam. Charge weapon, grease, adhesive web and wind wall are the first examples that come to mind.

If you rank really slowly, and use your unperfected spells in pvp a lot and define spamming narrowly enough then, yeah, I can see how maybe you could avoid spamming. But I think the way most people play, a 5-path invoker still has to spam. Now last I heard you like spamming, so perhaps you just don't see a problem with it. As far as I'm concerned, mindlessly mashing buttons is not fun at all and should never be an intentional part of game design.

What, from your perspective is actually good about the requirement that invokers spam?

Should be mentioned that nearly every other class has to spam as well, if you want stuff perfected in a "timely" manner. Warriors, assassins, thieves, bards, etc. Why should invokers get a free pass?

With my warriors I'll practice a lot of the skills I'll never plan on using (various weapons not of my spec) up to an ACCEPTABLE level before advancing. The problem with invokers is that I don't have that choice. I'm forced to master some spells that I'll very very rarely use later on, and some I'll never use.

The end result being: both warrior and invoker are spending time spamming stuff. You'll need to convince me that the time spent by a warrior is less than the time spent by a 5-path invoker, assuming the same level of skill-perfection-anality on the part of the player.

All I'm saying is you can throw down a token amount of practice time with a warrior and still have FUN (which was the subject of this thread). You MUST spam with invokers and invest a large amount of time to make them fun.

A warrior doesn't have to spam practice. I never will, I simply refuse. With an assassin I admit I will spam up mule kick but t he rest of the kicks I get while ranking or not at all if it doesn't work out. An invoker absolutely must spam to even get their class skills.

Are you sure?

Five-path guy with 23 int who is fine with not getting all his spells until, say, 125 hours into the characters, and who is willing to use "non-optimal" spells while ranking?

Seems like the spamming needed for the guy above, if any, would be pretty minimal anyway given his high affinity values. Throw tome in the mix and it's even less.

Also, while other classes "get their class skills" without spamming, those class skills aren't always that great without some time spent practicing them. Binder skills are a really good example. They just don't work that often until you get them up to an acceptable level.

Why not give invokers the same choice? In what way would cf be worse?

I think the practice time was intended to provide a deterrent to people playing 7-path invokers, which are viewed as "too powerful". Or at least, "too powerful" without other mitigating factors at play (such as the need to spend a significant portion of the character's life spamming, and the fact that you'll probably not reach mastery in many paths until late in the character's life.)

If you remove the pre-requisite nature of invoker spells, that means people will just skip spamming certain non-pk-useful spells. That reduces the overall practice time for any invoker, regardless of path, which somewhat reduces the disincentive for people to play invokers with more paths.

So if that change were ever made, I'm assuming the staff would simultaneously reduce the learning rates for invoker spells across the board. Either that, or enforce a hard maximum of 5 paths.

Give 7 paths to people who know how to get immexp *cough* I mean roleplay.

Voker spam is way worse than assassin spam.

Assassins aren't that bad, yeah. Though it's annoying to learn spear/staff if you're not a felar. And tiger claw to a certain extent.

But there's still *some* spam. Warriors are worse.

Were you comparing against a 5-path invoker of a non-dumb race, taking into account tome?

For example, my svirf voker (dumb race) had 10 affinity in earth, and with a tome, still spammed for hours and hours and hours just to learn the earth spells. Others were even worse.

I have, however, also played elf vokers a couple of times (7 path) and again I found the spam too tedious. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to move to the next spell when one is at 90%. You could, if you wanted, still require straight 100s throughout to gain elemental masteries.

After four gnome vokers, all seven path, I'd suggest just spamming 20-40 commands at a time in a 'safe' area while watching tv or something. It's not nearly as tedious when you're not paying a lot of attention.

>Ultimately my feeling is... a 5 path invoker is viable and
>doesn't really have spam time.
>
>There's been talk now and again of making it so that you can't
>play a 7 path invoker, either literally or by making it take X
>amount of affinity to get the shield or later spells in a
>path. I think you'd be more likely to see that change.

He might not have that much of a spam time but there are still spells he has to spam (unless things have changed the latest uhm 4 years). If you feel that 7 path invokers are too powerful why not just let people pick 5 paths and remove the spam requirement completely?

I think that would make a lot of people who choose shifters these days due to them being powerful without much investment choose voker instead and perhaps mix it up some more at hero range.


>In some ways I may be in the minority here, but I think a
>well-played evil conjurer is so overwhelmingly powerful (and,
>especially for a devil conjurer, could realistically never
>look for any A/B/S and never miss it) that I'm hesitant to
>make them any stronger.

In my opinion removing some of the backstabbing does not make evil conjies powerhouses for everyone, those few guys that know how to make a evil conjie powerful is not hindered by the betrayal (I guess?). But for those average players it is another bump in the road on a class that is already pretty bumpy.

"In some ways I may be in the minority here, but I think a well-played evil conjurer is so overwhelmingly powerful (and, especially for a devil conjurer, could realistically never look for any A/B/S and never miss it) that I'm hesitant to make them any stronger."

I think your a little off based here. In the mid ranks I think both goodie and evil conjies are equally deadly. In the high ranks I think a conjie that can find abs is almost always better off with a demon. The caveat being if they actually manage to keep a lesser ice devil at that high happy rating where they cast after fleeing people and when entering the room. if a devil is even slightly unhappy it has such a quick downgrading effect that its very very tough to get them re happy again because they actually cast so rarely that you need to flee because they ain't doing much and when you need to flee they get more unhappy and it becomes a quick and dangerous cycle.

personally i would feel better if you just removed the whole fleeing makes them mad part and left everything else alone, this would not increase their power cap any because they still need to be fighting a fair amount to stay happy and deadly it just makes devils more manageable. As for demons they are so easy to please if they turn on a character more then once or twice your just flat out not doing something right.

As far as deadliness at hero... I wouldn't say devils/demons are any scarier then angels/archons the only difference is being able to use gaunts and thats a big difference, but if you remove the gaunt I would take angels/archons most of the time (although being ablew to custom tailor the type of demon to the type of foe is nice archangels are pretty damn good all around)

>I think your a little off based here. In the mid ranks I
>think both goodie and evil conjies are equally deadly.

What's your measure for deadly?

Can beat the other in a steel cage match? Sure, maybe.

Can manage more kills? No, evil's got that no contest. It's not even close.

>In the
>high ranks I think a conjie that can find abs is almost always
>better off with a demon.

I disagree here; there are some enemies I'd pick a devil for and some I'd pick a demon for. Which you prefer overall I think is a matter of style.

>As far as deadliness at hero... I wouldn't say devils/demons
>are any scarier then angels/archons the only difference is
>being able to use gaunts and thats a big difference, but if
>you remove the gaunt I would take angels/archons most of the
>time (although being ablew to custom tailor the type of demon
>to the type of foe is nice archangels are pretty damn good all
>around)

I think a devil is ridiculously deadlier than an archon; but that said, I don't think that's why you conjure an archon. They're incredibly good in their own way, but scary isn't what I'd call them.

Beyond that, I sort of agree with you here. I really like the versatility of demons, but angels are just pretty good all around for most things a good conjurer wants to fight, too.

But again, despite all of that, me playing an evil conjurer is going to leave me playing a good conjurer in the dust in terms of ability to make kills. It won't even be a race.

Why did you make a human goodie master of magic conjurer when they were first implemented if evils are way more the powerhouse?

-----Abernyte

At the time it's what I thought no one was going to play and wanted to see how it worked out.

A better question might be what have most (all?) my conjurers since been?

The evil conjurer has a lot more potential to kill someone, and a lot more potential to die. A good conjurer with an archon is hardly ever going to die, but at the same time, isn't going to be magic-missiling too many people to death.

And they can actually do some good damage if you have a clue.

Demons vs Archangel.
While demons in general do more damage, the archangel is the king of sudden damage. Pillar is no joke. Plus it rescues and have other warrior's skills.

>While demons in general do more damage

I think this is as false as ####.

I reckon if you compare damage over 100 rounds of a strong challegha with an archangel, you'll find the demon comes out on top. Certainly if your enemy is sensible and moves to places where he can't eat a pillar (which is the first thing to do vs arcangels in most cases).

Way too many people just try to pour out damage.

When you start adding stuff like shield cleave, and engaging the archon, it becomes a lot easier.

nt

On one hand, Scion powers are really great for an evil conjurer.

On the other hand, never having to defend/retrieve and always having full flexibility to pick your fights is also great as an evil conjurer.

>On one hand, Scion powers are really great for an evil
>conjurer.
>
>On the other hand, never having to defend/retrieve and always
>having full flexibility to pick your fights is also great as
>an evil conjurer.
>

Both of these go hand in hand with being a Scion. =)

Too many scions get away with being "secretive" which basically means they don't put themselves at risk for the cabal.

A Scion who won't defend or retrieve is sooner or later getting a boot up their ass. In a cabal that always has more applicants that can be in, it's not hard to replace someone who's useless as far as the cabal goes.

Ugh, god no. The thing I love most about Invokers is that they can be seven path. Spam time sucks, but it's not so bad that I'd want to lose the variety behind them. Invokers are pretty strong, and honestly my favorite class as is after playing both Aubrei and Tubnic, let alone my general trial vokers.

Knockout trap knocking someone out would be great!

Thanks in advance!

My opinion on mechanics stuff isn't worth much - but the invoker class does seem less balanced than it used to be. It's balanced fine for PvP, but the time investment is quite high for the ultimate reward. I think the stock answer has been that the affinity paths make it so that less is required, but less power gained -- ultimately if you take all paths you end up strong, but not SO much strong that everyone will want to do it. Personally, I don't mess with invoker unless I take all paths... and that hasn't been worth the investment to me.

Invokers do seem alot more time consuming, but It's a challenging class to play around mid-levels, making the game have a bit more fun. Making an invoker easier defeats the purpose. It's suppose to be a time consuming class.