Not sure about anyone else but it kinda seems like flyto needs a timer on it, with those airforms PK has been pretty much reduced to just spamming 'flyto;peck' and sitting back to watch. I thought it might be possible that might not be the case till I saw this:

Someone's claw MANGLES you!
You have been KILLED!!

You have died, but the Carrion Fields are not finished with you yet!
Your soul is returned to the realms in the form of a ghost.
You will return to your corporeal state in a short while.
Be careful, for even a ghost should fear some dangers!

A flying PKer flies up to you quickly then slows to a near halt.

The gods protect you from a flying PKer.

The gods protect you from a flying PKer.

The gods protect you from a flying PKer.

The gods protect you from a flying PKer.

is that they seem custom designed to sit at a certain level just below hero and wipe everyone who ranks into their range, before they have access to wands or preps or getting hero gear. This is really hard on newbies, and lower level chars in general.

Every single character I've made in the past year or so has had to deal with air offense shifters killing or attempting to kill him in the lower 40s range, when he doesn't have a lot of damage redux nor very good gear nor all his key abilities, and they have lots of damage redux and are at their peak fighting potential (minus a small bit of hp). This is especially irritating because whenever you try to do something productive, like level up or get better gear, you end up getting harassed by aforementioned murder shifter, hoping to catch you unprepped and kill you in one rake - the shifter has no incentive to improve himself, while you literally can't improve yourself during the entire duration of his login or else you risk getting two-rounded by his offense form when you are in the middle of a different fight.

Yes, there are lots of counters to the good old air/off choice or areas the shifter can't get to. I could sit underwater or in an obscure explore area or in some obscure branch of the underdark for the entire duration of the shifter's login. That sounds like a lot of fun to me, doesn't it sound like a lot of fun to you? I'm sure we all love being forced to do nothing productive for hours on end because some other guy feels like being a douchebag.

The counters of an air/offense shifter? There are lots of things that can overpower it, but most of the ideas I have aren't easily obtainable/executable before hero levels, and the shifter has every incentive to gay you before you can pull together enough power to get those items.

I mean, there are some classes which just won't ever have a problem with dealing with a air murder shifter. Any class in outlander can basically ignore them. Rangers eat shifters in the wilderness. Shaman and paladin can overpower them. If they get slept, they're not exactly guaranteed to die but they're pretty much guaranteed not to win that fight.

But there are also certain characters which are easily overpowered by a basic air/offense shifter - they're notoriously effective against orcs, unprepped warriors, and in general any class below level 45 or so will have serious, serious problems against them, especially since they're so good at finding and harassing ranking groups, which is what most lower level players spend the majority of their time doing, and they can easily two round any unprepared mage or melee class they catch.

I would argue that while they're pretty balanced at hero, they're just too effective against lower level characters, since the entire build is basically designed to do absolutely nothing well but surprise people with huge damage output and then chase them down. I would suggest giving them a higher exp penalty to push their range up to the point where they don't have such a large incentive to sit at a lower level and repeatedly harass people who are trying to get other things done.

Again, though I'm not saying that air/off shifters rack up better pk ratios than lich or cabdru, they're just really effective at harassing people who don't really stand a chance against them. I've seen dozens of air/off shifters, some of whom were my allies, who were pushing the whole "griefing" line. Not all of them were griefers, but complete boredom and lack of anything better to do let all of them get pretty close to it. I think a bigger exp penalty would let a larger portion of the playerbase breathe in peace, and reduce the incredibly huge annoyance potential of the air shifter to the portion of the player base best equipped to deal with it, and the ones with the most time and inclination to do so - the hero range.

Shifters preying on you from 40-45 makes leveling to hero increeedibly hard.

Warriors do, assassins do. Why is it such a big deal if, God forbid, a mage class has a level sitting sweet spot? Don't ask me what those sweet spots are, I have no idea, but I have heard others talk about them many times.

Can warriors or assassins chase you from almost any map in 2-3 commands? Can they check almost every map you care enough to level or get items in within fifteen minutes real time? I can pick out a dozen maps off the top of my head that I can sit in for hours that no warrior or assassin in his right mind will -ever- think to look for me, but I am not safe at all from air shifters there.

There are other factors involved too: no matter how good your warrior or assassin is or other level-sitting overpowered superstar, there are half a dozens ways at least to ensure that particular char doesn't get the jump on you. And they can't be everywhere at once - even if you don't think you can level safely, you can still do other things in other areas without being harassed. I've played hero range a lot, I've had entire huge cabals after me, and I know how to avoid them.

But against a bored air shifter who knows he isn't good enough to take anyone in the hero range but understands that you're easy prey, you just can't. He can track you wherever you go, and makes doing the smallest, most minor things a retardedly large risk. Yeah, sure, you could wander around the underdark or underwater during the entire duration of aforementioned shifter's login, but again, that can't -possibly- be any fun and makes logging on a complete waste of time.

Whenever you log on, check your range, see a single name, and say "Wow, this session is not going to be ANY fun and I'd really rather quit than waste my time here" its a sign that there's a problem. I've never had that feeling with an air shifter in the hero range, but I've had it a -lot- with level sitting multi killing air/offense shifters before hero.

I really don't know where you're coming from with all this. Yes, I realize that ranking under the open skies around the 40s can be a real bear when there's an air/offense shifter logged on. But I've played a whole lot more characters who are susceptible to those shifters than who are resistant to them. The result is that I've learned to master those "obscure" areas you're dumping on so much.

You make it sound as if ranking underground or underwater is slow, tedious, and unproductive. The simple fact is, those are some of the best, safest, and fastest ranking areas in the game. They're also the areas least likely to be checked by OTHER people who are seeking to hunt someone while they're ranking. Instead of dumping on the "secret" and "obscure" places and aspects of the game, go explore and learn those places. Once you've familiarized yourself with the maps of those areas, so that you can navigate them easily from memory, you'll find that it's suddenly much easier to deal not only with air/offense shifters, but also necromancers, APs, shamans, assassins, rangers, and thieves.

Some air/offense shifters have knowledge of those areas too, and ranking there doesn't GUARANTEE you'll be protected from them. But it does take away their advantage, and in the case of under water, it totally negates any shifter who doesn't have a water form.

The same thing can be said for ranking in explore areas. If you take a little time to learn the explore area, you'll find that most of them really aren't all that challenging once you know what to expect. And the ranking in such places tends to be very fast when you know what to do.

Learning these types of things about the game is what transitions you from being a poor/mediocre player to a skilled/elite player. Then you'll suddenly find yourself being the one that other people are criticizing and complaining about, making accusations of having special Imm relations or OOC connections and so forth. And as you read it, you just sit back and laugh at the ridiculousness of it.

I'm not calling myself elite by any means. I don't think I am at all. But I have had a few characters now that people have accused of having a special Imm connection or some OOC cheat group, both of which are ridiculous.

It all comes down to game knowledge, gained through experience. The best way to get is by taking your lumps and learning from your mistakes. If someone else leads you through one of those places, LOG the experience, then take a little time to study the log. After you've got a general idea of how to get there, and some of the layout of the place, then GO there yourself, with the log in hand (or on the screen) and explore it for yourself, with YOU leading the way (assuming you have taken a group along with you). Additionally, you can use your ghost times for exploring safely as well, provided that you can get yourself out safely after you unghost, or that you get out BEFORE you unghost (although some explore areas you can't enter while a ghost). I learned my way around the entire underdark by exploring while I was a ghost (except for one explore area which you can't enter while ghostly).

Personally, I have a great deal of fun ranking in those obscure places, because:
1.) It's fast
2.) It's safe
3.) I know that it's giving me a HUGE edge over the people who don't
know those areas, and therefore, they can't hunt me while I'm
there.

So you feel powerless against certain builds? Nothing's going to make you feel more powerful than learning to thwart those builds with a character that by common standards is completely inferior.

Take a little time to learn these things, and you'll find that the game suddenly takes on a whole new dimension of fun.

When someone pisses in your sandbox, you seem to be the kind of guy who goes off to find a new sandbox and then proclaim the new sandbox is better and thank the guy who pissed on you.

I'm aware of all of what you say, and agree with a lot of it. I know the drow city, I know the underdark, aran'gird, lower cragstone. I know the ruins of the deep and organia and the sahuagin. It doesn't change the fact that this sort of harassment is annoying as hell, difficult to deal with, and completely ####s with your gameplay experience, especially if you are the kind of player who wants pk and exploration to go with your daily dose of powerleveling.

What, are you the kind of guy who enjoys hitting hero while super gimped? I mean, at around level 42 or so thats usually when I start checking wand locations or prep locations, gather gold and look for better gear, but with an air/off shifter online suddenly doing something other than power-ranking underground/underwater becomes risky and liable to get me killed.

After level 40 I shouldn't be forced to stay in 1/10th of the game or deal with repeated harassment, especially by people who are so well equipped to multikill players while they're at a disadvantage in levels/preps/equipment

Air/Off shifters frustrate me a lot and I'm a player who understands the limitation of flyers and flyto shifters, and knows a lot of the ways to hold them down or avoid them (thank you to lightmage for your excellent guide). Fact of the matter is: I think it would be 10000x worse for some newbie trying to get through CF's huge learning curve. At least when you're fighting lich/cabdru/overpowered level sitter #129381208127, you can run/quaff away and be pretty damn sure he won't find you again before you're ready, and you can go do other things like gather preps or equipment or explore. With air shifters? Not so much.

This isn't about air/off shifters being cheap or overpowered, its about their ubiquitous presence and simple, complete harassment build making the game less fun, less interesting and less productive for everyone. Including themselves. Really - the change that would reduce this problem this is not a huge game balance factor - tweak up their distension rate when they have a fourth form and increase their exp penalty so they are more limited in who they can bother. I don't resent their potential power so much as I do the way they use it to harass people who really have better things to do.

>When someone pisses in your sandbox, you seem to be the kind
>of guy who goes off to find a new sandbox and then proclaim
>the new sandbox is better and thank the guy who pissed on
>you.

No, I'm the kind of guy when someone pisses in my sandbox, I go over to his sandbox and piss in it right back. And if he somehow prevents me from doing so on the first try, I step back, study the situation very carefully, formulate a plan taking into account as many factors as I can observe, and then execute the plan. (At least in the game. IRL I believe there are better ways to handle things. At times I've been pushed to this point IRL as well, though it's rare.) I usually succeed when I take the time to study the situation. That's how I grow and improve.

>I'm aware of all of what you say, and agree with a lot of it.
>I know the drow city, I know the underdark, aran'gird, lower
>cragstone. I know the ruins of the deep and organia and the
>sahuagin. It doesn't change the fact that this sort of
>harassment is annoying as hell, difficult to deal with, and
>completely ####s with your gameplay experience, especially if
>you are the kind of player who wants pk and exploration to go
>with your daily dose of powerleveling.

You're right, it IS annoying as hell, and it's equally annoying to me as well. But instead of seeing it as an obstacle to pk, look at it as an opportunity.

>What, are you the kind of guy who enjoys hitting hero while
>super gimped? I mean, at around level 42 or so that's usually
>when I start checking wand locations or prep locations, gather
>gold and look for better gear, but with an air/off shifter
>online suddenly doing something other than power-ranking
>underground/underwater becomes risky and liable to get me
>killed.

Actually, I do my gearing in the 20s and 30s. Usually when I'm power ranking, there are times when the only people to group with seem to be complete newbies whose lack of understanding of the game is so great that it would be stupid to take them anywhere challenging even with competent leadership. During those times, I take a couple hours to gear up. At this point, those air/offense shifters have only JUST acquired their final MAJOR form (not minor form), have low skill in it (which means less defense, less offense, and higher mana cost so they can't maintain form as long), non-perfected controls, probably non-perfected shapeshift skill, have about 60-70 hp less, and probably haven't had the chance to locate all their wands yet. In short, this is the time when they're the least threatening with a final form. If you're playing a conjurer, transmuter, or any kind of non-mage, this is your ideal time to gather up good gear that will not leave you "super gimped" at hero levels. Early to mid-30s is also a great time to pk unless you're a shifter. Sleek blacks can be acquired as early as 36, and now you can even learn Detect Artifact at 37. So yeah, get all that stuff done BEFORE you hit late 30s when you're coming into range of those dreaded air/offense shifters. And if you want to make yourself even more survivable when playing a mage or priestly class, perfect Word of Recall before getting into their reach as well. I'm not saying you HAVE to do ALL of these in order to stand a chance. You can mix and match to suit your tastes. You yourself indicated you don't like to be "super gimped" in hero range. Well, just figure that "hero range" starts a little sooner with some classes (and it's not just air/offense shifters that enter their "hero range" at that time. See anti-paladins, shamen, necromancers to name just a few). So in the same way you want to get "un-gimped" before "true" hero range, don't wait so long and get yourself "un-gimped" before then. There is some really good basic gear readily available in the 30s for any class, and by basic I'm not talking simple ghost-regear stuff.

>After level 40 I shouldn't be forced to stay in 1/10th of the
>game or deal with repeated harassment, especially by people
>who are so well equipped to multikill players while they're at
>a disadvantage in levels/preps/equipment

In the same way that it's stupid for some classes to linger in the pre-20 pk range, it's also stupid for certain OTHER classes to linger in the 35-45 pk range.

>Air/Off shifters frustrate me a lot and I'm a player who
>understands the limitation of flyers and flyto shifters, and
>knows a lot of the ways to hold them down or avoid them (thank
>you to lightmage for your excellent guide). Fact of the matter
>is: I think it would be 10000x worse for some newbie trying to
>get through CF's huge learning curve.

Newbies have to deal with CF's huge learning curve equally across ALL pk ranges. There isn't ANYWHERE from 1-51 where no one has an uber advantage on you (though things do get more evened out within the last few levels). For total newbies, there is no level they can sit at and count themselves "safe" or even "safer". The only cure to newbie weakness is experience, and that experience can be capitalized upon much more quickly with a little time spent studying logs or screen buffer (after you loot your corpse or quit, for example).

>At least when you're
>fighting lich/cabdru/overpowered level sitter #129381208127,
>you can run/quaff away and be pretty damn sure he won't find
>you again before you're ready, and you can go do other things
>like gather preps or equipment or explore. With air shifters?
>Not so much.

There are very easy ways to escape air shifters. With the air/offense shifters I've played, the ratio of escaped victims to dead victims is very high, and I'm no slouch at it. There are some people who I've NEVER been able to bring down even with a nearly ideal combo of air/offense forms. On the flip side, there are some highly competent air/offense shifters with nearly ideal form combos who have NEVER been able to bring me down even when I'm playing a class that's almost completely useless in a fight against shifters. Yet even when I was playing that character, I didn't feel the least bit restricted in what I did because I learned how to deal with them.

>This isn't about air/off shifters being cheap or overpowered,
>its about their ubiquitous presence and simple, complete
>harassment build making the game less fun, less interesting
>and less productive for everyone. Including themselves. Really
>- the change that would reduce this problem this is not a huge
>game balance factor - tweak up their distension rate when they
>have a fourth form and increase their exp penalty so they are
>more limited in who they can bother. I don't resent their
>potential power so much as I do the way they use it to harass
>people who really have better things to do.

Competent Conjurers with nightgaunts (and I stress COMPETENT) are an even deadlier threat than air/offense shifters. They can spy on you until you're in a vulnerable location, then snatch you away and drag you to a place where you can't run, can't recall, and have two suped-up NPCs wailing on you while the conjurer lashes you, or uses an exotic lagging skill, and possibly has you aiming at his familiar or some sturdy merc so that all your hits are being wasted. He could even engage you in a place where you're likely to die instantly or be stuck if you try to flee from him. Assassins can stalk you while you're ranking and assassinate you in a single hit. A skilled transmuter can slip up on you unnoticed and paralyze you mid-fight while ranking, then rip you apart with disruptions, all the while you can't do a single thing to put one scratch on them. Thieves are so versatile they can do a long list of annoying things to you that are tough to counter. The list goes on. Every class has their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Add to that the fact that some players EXCEL at tracking down pk victims, and virtually any class can seem almost ubiquitous.

The solution is not to take away their strengths, but to learn how to combat/counter them effectively.

Going back to your analogy at the beginning, when someone pisses in my sandbox, I prefer to deal with the problem directly, rather than screaming at the teacher to make him stop. Someday, there won't be a teacher around to make him stand in the corner (not to mention, what's he gonna do once he gets out of the corner?), and what am I going to do then if I haven't learned how to deal with it myself?

Klaak

Great spirits have always met violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-Einstein

You're saying to that these guys are perfectly ok because they made you a "better" player and that they're going to make me a better player too once I "learn" to deal with them.

The problem is that I don't get enough fun out of walking around 5-6 different maps which I already know and don't particularly care to stay in for three hours of my login session. The problem is that I already know how to deal with them, but honestly don't care enough to roll a different kind of character designed to multkill them and make their life a living hell.

The problem is that I expect to have fun in a game and if my idea of fun doesn't match your idea of fun I should just swallow the piss they shower on my sandbox, because apparently there's some super secret anti-shifter tactic that I can learn by sitting around the ruins of the deep or tower of trothon for hours while I wait to get a group together.

You must really have a skewed perspective if you honestly think nightgaunt is more restrictive and more dangerous to a mid-level player than an air shifter, I do not recall the last time a conjurer successfully killed me from a gaunt when my hometown was set in arkham, and my last five characters that made it to hero have been killed by a conjurer using gaunt a combined total of maybe three times? four? Like assassination (and air shifters), the only people who get really ####ed from nightgaunt are ragers. Nightgaunt has never, ever stopped me from logging on, or made an entire session one where I sit in the lake/cave/fairyland hoping for a good group to log on.

Let me say it in a different way: overpowered transmuters, overpowered assassins, whatever, NONE of them are as restrictive as air shifters. You obviously completely ignored my points, and just addressed what you think my complaint is.Allow me to quote you:

"The solution is not to take away their strengths, but to learn how to combat/counter them effectively."

I DON'T CARE ABOUT OVERPOWERED LICH'S ABILITIES: THAT ISN'T THE POINT OF THIS ARGUMENT. DUDE, IF YOU GAVE AIR OFFENSE SHIFTERS BASH, DEATHBLOW, AND ENTWINE AND THEN SET A THIRTY MINUTE TIMER UP EVERY TIME THEY SHIFTED INTO AN AIR FORM, THAT WOULD ALSO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

I'm not trying to address that I think they're overpowered, I'm trying to address that I think they're perfectly designed to grief people who can't do anything about it except get bored out of their skulls sitting underwater/in the underdark. Again, my solution is not to NERF them or reduce their power in any way, but to rather PREVENT them from harassing players before level 45 or so. Its not a freaking perfect solution, but I'm just tired of getting every ranking group or exploration attempt or pk setup above the water broken up by "An air shifter flies up to you and screeches to a halt." It really isn't as big of a deal in the hero range, but before that its hell. I know a guy who hasn't been able to do -anything- for his imm-assigned quest because the only time he logs in is when air shifter #348479748927498374 is bored and looking to jump him.

" I don't resent their potential power so much as I do the way they use it to harass people who really have better things to do."

So, just because you feel you have better things to do, I should put aside my RP and not hunt you? Just because you want to search your wands, it is ok for a conjurer to gaunt you but my air shifter has no right to search you out?

Next time that assassin comes out of no where, I'll be sure to tell him "Hey! Don't you know I have better things to do than deal with you?"

I was going to respond to the rest of your post, in a rather thoughtful way. Basically because I once thought much like you do. I did not think it quite to forcefully, but to a small extent, I did. Then I got to the last line and was WTF? I mean seriously, do you belive that? "Mr. Anti-Paladin, I know you want my soul and all, but I think I need to find my wand at the moment, do you mind?"

Assassins ruin your gameplay in a similar way as air shifters do. Just to a lesser extent.
You have to waste your whole game session in an exploration area or sitting on the water. While I'm not getting assassinated often, I sure notice the difference in spening my time. With other classes it's not so. Sure you may want to avoid lich, but you still can rank, look for wands, raid, etc and still be able to quaff return if he comes.

n/t

>You have to waste your whole game session in an exploration
>area or sitting on the water.

This is overly pessimistic. You don't have to spend all your time in that type of area. However, if you're not doing so then you need to be constantly moving in a way that makes it hard for the assassin to follow without being seen and/or hard to quickly find you again once you've lost him.

>Sure you may want to
>avoid lich, but you still can rank, look for wands, raid, etc
>and <i>still be able to quaff return if he comes</i>.

...if you happen see him before he summons you. Unless you interleave a "where" between every single command, including walking, then it should be possible for a lich (or any other summoner) to get the jump on you.

This is mitigated by the fact that summon lags the caster/communer, except that doesn't so much matter if the caster/communer has a friend (or friends) with him to initiate combat once you're summoned.

Um, fail~

I'd rather deal with an assassin than an air shifter anyday. There are dozens of ways to deal with hiding classes, especially level-sitting ones who just aren't very good at assassinating. And its not like assassination is overpowered in any way shape or form, except perhaps against inattentive ragers who can't quaff teleport and aren't observant enough to check water. Even the most overpowered assassin/lich/deathblow whore isn't particularly difficult to avoid, quaff/cast teleport and they won't catch you. Nightgaunt has major, major, major restrictions on it and can only be used once every half an hour or so, on a single person, and it can't pull you into many extremely dangerous rooms or cursed areas.

Meanwhile, air shifter harasses you, maybe gets lucky and kills you and takes all your preps, then when you unghost guess what? There's no 30 minute timer or nighttime or same continent restriction on him. Quaff teleport/quaff word isn't a big deal since in that two rounds lag he's already halfway to you. You can sit underwater or in the underdark all day, but guess what? Air shifter has no restrictions on his movements and no timers to hold himself down, so the moment you come up he can harass you again! Yay!~

"Mr. Anti-Paladin, go ahead and come for my soul, because I know what you're going to do to me and I can prepare for it, and even if I can't beat you 1v1 because you have a full hero set + a/b/s I can get out if I play my cards right, and really even if you break up my ranking group or catch me in some other areas I like I can still go do other things and be reasonably sure you won't show up every 5 minutes to annoy the #### out of me."

I'm sorry, air shifters are a much, much different proposition from assassins/a-ps/conjurers/whatever else you want to call overpowered. And you know what? I'm not even bitching about nerfing air shifters, I'm saying that they are perfectly fine in dealings with the hero range: its harassing people before then which annoys me, because they're like freaking custom built to prevent anyone who cannot overpower them (read: level 38~45 or so players) from doing anything useful within most of the game.

>Um, fail~
>
>I'd rather deal with an assassin than an air shifter anyday.
>There are dozens of ways to deal with hiding classes,
>especially level-sitting ones who just aren't very good at
>assassinating.

As I said before, there are many ways to deal with air shifters as well. You seem to have ignored that part of my response. I'm quite good with air/offense shifters, but even so, the ratio of escaped victims to dead victims is very high. When an air shifter comes, there's no reason why you have to die to them. Let me state it again, "There are many ways to deal with air shifters."

>And its not like assassination is overpowered
>in any way shape or form, except perhaps against inattentive
>ragers who can't quaff teleport and aren't observant enough to
>check water. Even the most overpowered assassin/lich/deathblow
>whore isn't particularly difficult to avoid, quaff/cast
>teleport and they won't catch you. Nightgaunt has major,
>major, major restrictions on it and can only be used once
>every half an hour or so, on a single person, and it can't
>pull you into many extremely dangerous rooms or cursed areas.

You obviously haven't ever been gaunted by one of my conjurers. I have some pretty nasty places to drop you into. Additionally, my statement about conjurers emphasized "COMPETENT conjurers." That's the only mitigating factor to their lethality. Joe Blow conjurer tends to get himself killed rather than his enemies.

>Meanwhile, air shifter harasses you, maybe gets lucky and
>kills you and takes all your preps, then when you unghost
>guess what? There's no 30 minute timer or nighttime or same
>continent restriction on him. Quaff teleport/quaff word isn't
>a big deal since in that two rounds lag he's already halfway
>to you. You can sit underwater or in the underdark all day,
>but guess what? Air shifter has no restrictions on his
>movements and no timers to hold himself down, so the moment
>you come up he can harass you again! Yay!~

You're seriously overestimating the air shifter's ability to find you. Yes, it's easier than with most classes, but if you've ever played an air shifter (you say you have) and you take into account the layout of the over-area when you recall or teleport, and take into account the lag-time when air shifter flies up into the sky (plus any lag-time if he has to shift back to air from offense), not only is the lag from your quaff totally negated, but you should be able to move quite a ways before he even finds you. By the time the smoke clears from your teleport, you should have already evaluated where you are, and where the nearest shelter is. Additionally, if you stay close to area boundaries, you can seriously annoy the crap out of an air shifter (and by area boundaries, I don't mean crossing between Galadon and outskirts of Galadon, since they count as the same area for flyto).

>"Mr. Anti-Paladin, go ahead and come for my soul, because I
>know what you're going to do to me and I can prepare for it,
>and even if I can't beat you 1v1 because you have a full hero
>set + a/b/s I can get out if I play my cards right, and really
>even if you break up my ranking group or catch me in some
>other areas I like I can still go do other things and be
>reasonably sure you won't show up every 5 minutes to annoy the
>#### out of me."

Air shifters are WAY WAY more predictable than anti-paladins. If you're not scared of APs because you know what they're going to do, then air shifters should be a piece of cake for you.

>I'm sorry, air shifters are a much, much different proposition
>from assassins/a-ps/conjurers/whatever else you want to call
>overpowered. And you know what? I'm not even bitching about
>nerfing air shifters, I'm saying that they are perfectly fine
>in dealings with the hero range: its harassing people before
>then which annoys me, because they're like freaking custom
>built to prevent anyone who cannot overpower them (read: level
>38~45 or so players) from doing anything useful within most of
>the game.


If you haven't read that article that Daevryn posted the link for, you really should. I'll say it again in case you missed it. There are many ways to deal with air/offense shifters. I say "many" as in "many". The word "many" does not equal some "super-secret tactic". It means "many," and they're not at all super-secret. You just have to take some time to figure them out.

Even in the late 30s early 40s, air shifters can still be beaten or driven off. Just as an example, I currently have a warrior who ripped apart a couple shifters in the 20s and 30s when they had no power. They proceeded to rank as fast as possible to final forms, hoping to get out of reach of me, or at least get some power of their own so they could take me on. Unfortunately for them, I was ranking just as quickly, so they couldn't rise out of my reach, despite being 7 or 8 levels higher than me from the start (I had a large racial xp penalty, and they had no xp penalty). The result was that I hit 40 about the same time they got their final air and final offense forms, the exact situation you're describing. Now by your assertion, these two air/offense shifters should have been able to exact sweet sweet revenge on me for the punishing I'd been giving them to this point. So here's me, moseying through Galadon when I'm suddenly set upon by a falcon (I think that was his form). I immediately begin exectuing one of my anti-air/offense strategies. He shifts to tiger (I didn't realize he'd gotten such a sweet form) after a single peck, but I don't panic and continue with the plan (I realize at the point that if I failed to take something into account, this encounter could go bad very quickly, but I have confidence in my plan and stick to it). About 2 rounds later, he shifts back to air and takes off with a parting blow to send him on his way. After several days went by, that same shifter came back at me twice more, and I sent him packing both times. I didn't want to rank up any further than 40, so I still had the same level discrepancy. After that, we resumed our roles of me hunting him and him spending his time running from me.

I learned how to deal with air/offense shifters from playing one and getting owned by certain people who knew how to deal with them. I saw how effectively "I" was put to flight by some people, so I took some time to figure out how they did it, mostly so I could figure out how to counter their counter of my attack.

As I said before, there are many ways to deal with air
shifters as well. You seem to have ignored that part of my
response. I'm quite good with air/offense shifters, but even
so, the ratio of escaped victims to dead victims is very high.
When an air shifter comes, there's no reason why you have to
die to them. Let me state it again, "There are many ways to
deal with air shifters."

There are many ways to deal with air shifters that imply you doing nothing useful with your time.
But the key point here is not "air shifter con-kill me" but "they waste my session time".
If you do anything that includes execution of two-rounds skills (leveling, exploring or just sleeping) you expose yourself to flyto/revert/rake and if you aren't a class with native dam reduction it may be enough for you to die at 38-40+. Plus now they can blind with peck.

You obviously haven't ever been gaunted by one of my
conjurers. I have some pretty nasty places to drop you into.
Additionally, my statement about conjurers emphasized
"COMPETENT conjurers." That's the only mitigating factor to
their lethality. Joe Blow conjurer tends to get himself killed
rather than his enemies.

Nightgaunts are easy to avoid if you have recall on other continent (Arkham/Seantryn/etc). I guess imms decided to leave this backdoor for themselves

I know how to deal with air shifters, however the easiest ways to deal with them, especially if they are persistent to chase through three or four teleports, usually force me to alter what I do with my session - sometimes to the point of not wanting to hang around and play.

>There are many ways to deal with air shifters that imply you
>doing nothing useful with your time.
>But the key point here is not "air shifter con-kill me" but
>"they waste my session time".
>If you do anything that includes execution of two-rounds
>skills (leveling, exploring or just sleeping) you expose
>yourself to flyto/revert/rake and if you aren't a class with
>native dam reduction it may be enough for you to die at
>38-40+. Plus now they can blind with peck.

I never implied that dealing with an air shifter means you have to hide and twiddle your thumbs. Additionally, ANY persistent pk hunter can cause you to "waste your session time" by simply running around from ranking spot to ranking spot until he finds you again. I've had land-bound pk hunters do this to me for hours. It doesn't require air shifters.


>Nightgaunts are easy to avoid if you have recall on other
>continent (Arkham/Seantryn/etc). I guess imms decided to leave
>this backdoor for themselves

Interestingly, most people do NOT have their hometown on a different continent, so my point still stands.

Klaak

Great spirits have always met violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-Einstein

>There are many ways to deal with air shifters that imply you
>doing nothing useful with your time.

It depends on what the air shifter is and who you are.

Let's take as one example the hiding classes. For them, I'd say air shifters fall into one of two broad categories:

A) Forms that can never see hidden.

B) Forms that can sometimes see hidden.

In the case of A, your solution can be about as simple as: mostly stay in areas where you can hide. If you do get caught visible and attacked and you don't think you can win, flee/hide you're fine. (Granted, you need to make up your mind before revert/fae can happen.)

This doesn't mean you have to be permanently hidden. Realistically, the shifter isn't going to find you the second you step out of hiding unless he already knows where you are.

In the case of B, you've got a harder time. You should figure out when they can and can't see you, if you don't know already.

Fortunately, all the forms in this bucket share a common weakness that you can use to your advantage. This is where I usually try to set a trap and kill the shifter.

Aside of all of this, keep in mind that there are a decent number of places a flier may be able to fly down to, but can't fly back up from and can't flyto within. These are often good places to set traps, too.

It depends on what the air shifter is and who you are.

Let's take as one example the hiding classes. For them, I'd
say air shifters fall into one of two broad categories:

A) Forms that can never see hidden.

B) Forms that can sometimes see hidden.

Frankly, we have just deleted assassin who was griefed by an air/offense. It's a coincidence though. Heh.

Aside of all of this, keep in mind that there are a decent
number of places a flier may be able to fly down to, but can't
fly back up from and can't flyto within. These are often good
places to set traps, too.

Not sure about you, but those places are exactly places I try to avoid by all means when harassed by an air form. Especially nowadays, when peck blinds.

General problem with all kind of those traps: it's a shifter who picks time, not you. You may prepare yourself and a trap and nothing happens, and when you relax, something is flying to you.
I don't remember last time I died to an air/offense, but sure it's annoying when you're harassed by someone whom you can't pay back because you can't see him or can't reach him.

Making traps sometimes is fun, but in general, it's waste of time considering efforts/rewards ratio.

Probably, you should try to play an air shifter for a while. I can't help but feel that there are large blind spots in your understanding of their powers and limitations, and there's no better way to discover their full limits but to put it to the test.

Beyond that, I think you and I will always be at an impasse in that you seem to think that PK is something that keeps you from playing the game, whereas to me, to a large degree, it IS the game.

Is what rubs me the wrong way. It's just the easy way out, from PK viewpoint, which is cheap.

I think flight forms in general* need to be toned down, so that the fly-to risk is a bit higher. These days, some shifters don't even need to shift to their offensive forms anymore, in some situations.

* And some specific forms are just ridiculous

>Is what rubs me the wrong way. It's just the easy way out,
>from PK viewpoint, which is cheap.

Without bashing on you or saying that I believe achieving large numbers of PKs equates to winning CF, this kind of commentary always makes me think of this article, which I largely agree with:

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

"Without bashing on you or saying that I believe achieving large numbers of PKs equates to winning CF"
In the same spirit ...

I know the general concept the article describes, don't worry And I'm known to be pretty competitive as a person.

But, there's also effort vs reward.

So you're an ace at CF (or something similar), you've "won", burned many bridges in the process, but at the end of the day, you're victorious.

What has that gotten you? Other than perhaps a short, happy glowing feeling, nothing. You're just the same guy as when you started playing. It's not like you just won a big cash price, for winning Roland Garros. Nor did you get a big claim to fame.

So, since the reward isn't very tangible, why not take it easy sometimes? Sure, you would have amassed more kills, had you gone full throttle, but as with many things, quality trumps quantity.

Could I be better at PK? If I put the effort into it, you bet. Do I feel like it? No way. While obviously an entertaining game, otherwise I wouldn't be here ..., it's about as low on my list of priorities as it gets.

A great read! Personally, I think that I'm a scrub "in learning". heh

Always shoot first and then call whatever you hit the target.

While I agree with that guy in general, I take issue with the section berating scrubs for considering things "cheap".

I think most intelligent people have a rudimentary ability to detect when a particular facet of a game is so broken that it fundamentally changes the nature of the game, presumably turning it into something that is "less fun". These are the things people tend to call cheap.

To use his SF analogy, suppose there were a specific combo either player could enter before combat that would instantly kill his opponent and grant him the win. This would essentially reduce Street Fighter to a contest of who can enter that combo the fastest. That's not a game I want to play. So players could, as a house rule, agree not to employ that method of "winning" since it is so "cheap" as to make the game not worth playing.

I'm not sure the author allows for this type of criticism which, in many cases, is well founded. Some things really are "cheap" moves.

The corollary to this, of course, is that most things people whine about being "cheap" probably aren't.

nt

Yeah but the analogy falls apart when he mentions that essentially anything you *can* do you *should* do unless its banned in a tournament. By that rationale I'd be a "scrub" for not multikilling everyone as they unghost. After all, they have no good gear, are probably by themselves, etc - why would I not take advantage of the situation? Likewise, I should bring the biggest gang I can to every fight - because there's never a situation where more isn't better.

The reason is that this isn't a tournament and I think to some degree we all admit there's an unspoken etiquette in MUDs/online-games that doesn't translate to tournament style competitions.

In his book (also freely available on that website) he tells a story about Japanese Street Fighter tournaments that (I think) speaks to what you're saying.

Having actually participated in some SF2 tournaments and having won like...$10...I can attest that the winning players were pretty homogeneous in their character choice and tactics.

My point was just that *some things really are broken* and you're not a scrub if you complain about people employing them to the detriment of the game as a whole.

If every CF character had "no-lag goto" + "slay" then, as far as I can tell, according to this guy, you'd be a "scrub" if you complained about other players using that tactic to kill you. Personally I think such a complaint would be well-warranted.

The trick, again, is that "scrubs" often complain about tactics they think are comparable to "goto + slay" but are, in fact, not.

CF is in a little bit of a different place because it's a living game that does change over time, whereas a given edition of a game like SF2 is more or less static.

His argument, I think, would be that if there's the goto/slay command, either, play a different game that isn't that overbalanced, or run with it with the idea that over time the community will work out the counters or the things that make that look weak (doubleslay without needing the goto?)

Air forms got mediocre doding and mediocre damage, which puts them at just about the lowest tier when it comes to battle ability. Essentially an air forms strength lies in its scouting ability, but it should not win a fight against someone unless they are VERY hurt and unable to teleport away (like a very hurt villager). Even a very hurt villager can escape by just dirt kicking it, giving them between 10 seconds and 90 seconds of time running while the air form wait out the blind.

Then I tried dirt kicking it and missed nine times out of ten or had it evaded.

Still, mv draining moves like hamstring, crimson scourge and entangle can do wonders to stop them from even dodging effectively outdoors.

Most air forms can't do that, and I'm pretty sure the one dude is having problems with isn't that one. A different special ability is kicking him in the junk.

This is an experience issue. A more experienced player killer can adapt and ajust tactics at an alarming rate compared to a newer player. Thus you can counter various abilities easier.

>This is an experience issue. A more experienced player killer
>can adapt and ajust tactics at an alarming rate compared to a
>newer player. Thus you can counter various abilities easier.


That's why everybody and their mother plays an air/offensive! You can counter it easily, so people who choose that combo are underdogs and pick it solely because of the challenge it provides!

I've found them the best for exploring. Perhaps air/defense would be better, but what fun would that be! As I'm really just learning about playing mages, finding wands, equiping mages, and such, I've found the air/offense shifter have been the best for the willy nilly type of area searching I like. True, a Transmuter might be safer, but I like being able to fly to where I'm going... It's the ONLY way to travel!

If they where just looking for a challenge they wouldn't repeatedly go after people that don't seem to be able to counter it....

.

There is a VERY easy counter to this. One that always left me annoyed at how easy it was to make me have to fly back into the air for a while...

Do tell

You should try to do what you can in-game to learn the limitations of air forms in general and the air form(s) that are troubling you in specific.

Not a lot of people are dying to this.