I have had two or three people constantly asking me privately the same questions that have gone unanswered in the helpfiles. I'm getting tired of either answering the same questions over and over, or finding things I was certain I had figured out I'm not so sure on (mainly regarding which bard songs fit which repertoires.) There are some things I do not have answers for either.

Inevitably these people turn around and decide playing a bard is too big a hassle due to the questions I cannot answer or answer in too much detail. So I'm going to compile a list of things I'd like clarified here under this post like the trapper one above.

Just to have these answers tacked into this thread for searching ease:

What is the effect of being tipsy on bard songs, aside from faster mana regenerarion (setting aside bard-based drinking-related edges). Is there any improvement on song level or duration?

Does the defending character being tipsy/drunk affect their ability to resist a bard's songs? Setting aside of course the increased probability of the defending character's increased chance of requesting Freebird or sending drunk-tells to an old flame?

-F

I have three questions relating to what stands to improve your chances of saving against a song (and subsequently what a bard can do to overcome it) but to fully understand what you can do against a bard you need to understand what is working for the bard.

The first part is the instrument.

The second part is the repertoire and the song being sung in that repertoire.

The last part is the charisma.

I understand charisma stat is a base boost to songs. Is this a boost to the song level itself (and is the song level based on the instrument's suitability to repertoire) or does it have a more indirect affect? Can this affect be compared to the affect mages INT has on spells? AP's? Or is it a different mechanic entirely?

Is singing canticle of the gods and eyeing the tick timer's amount the best way to get a precise indicator of your current song level, or is it bad because of how certain repertoires affect it?

Is it a given that, like a mage, a higher level bard will have a higher quality song given equal repertoires and instruments and charisma?

How does song skill percentage affect the song itself beyond you fail to sing it less?

Now once you understand the above you can begin to understand how to gear against a bard.

Is INT the counterweight stat to a bard song and CHARISMA? Edges imply that high INT characters, barring a certain edge, resist songs more easily independent of saves. INT affects what damage type Apocalyptic Overture picks, for instance, right? Does it affect the actual numerical affect of debuffs as well as the chance to land?

Is saves versus mental equal in effect to saves versus spell i.e. is -50 svs spell and -50 svs mental weighted the same on saves, or is the -50 svs mental going to give you more bang for your buck than the same amount versus spells? If it is in fact weight this way, is it correct that since alot of the most widely available saves against mental is heavy or inconvienient, you can get away with wearing less saves versus mental than you might gear for against a mage? (since in general there are fewer bards than mages anyway)

Does resist mental change the way you save against bard songs or increase saves, or both? I understand it decreases damage already. Fortress of the spirit warrior legacy does a similar change? Additional to the answer to saves versus mental above, is the benefit of saves versus mental on top of resi mental going to be dramatic or mediocre? Are you better off choosing one or the other and not both for a rough and tumble lifestyle in which you might encounter a bard but aren't 100% certain?

>I understand charisma stat is a base boost to songs. Is this a
>boost to the song level itself (and is the song level based on
>the instrument's suitability to repertoire) or does it have a
>more indirect affect?

Generally yes. For some songs it might have an additional affect beyond that but I can't think of any at the moment.

>Is singing canticle of the gods and eyeing the tick timer's
>amount the best way to get a precise indicator of your current
>song level, or is it bad because of how certain repertoires
>affect it?

The latter, I think, although given a consistent repertoire that's maybe one way to eye it up.

>Is it a given that, like a mage, a higher level bard will have
>a higher quality song given equal repertoires and instruments
>and charisma?

Generally yes, and I can't think of any counterexamples at the moment.

>How does song skill percentage affect the song itself beyond
>you fail to sing it less?

In the general case it doesn't.

>Is INT the counterweight stat to a bard song and CHARISMA?
>Edges imply that high INT characters, barring a certain edge,
>resist songs more easily independent of saves. INT affects
>what damage type Apocalyptic Overture picks, for instance,
>right? Does it affect the actual numerical affect of debuffs
>as well as the chance to land?

Eh... sort of. It's a big determinant in mental saves (as is wisdom). It's a smaller determinant (as is wisdom) in spell or paralysis saves, and some (although less) bard songs make some use of these as well.

>Is saves versus mental equal in effect to saves versus spell
>i.e. is -50 svs spell and -50 svs mental weighted the same on
>saves, or is the -50 svs mental going to give you more bang
>for your buck than the same amount versus spells?

I can't remember how this works at the moment. It might be more effective.

>Does resist mental change the way you save against bard songs
>or increase saves, or both?

Mostly increases saves, effectively.

>I understand it decreases damage
>already.

For songs that deal mental-typed damage this is true; otherwise not.

>Fortress of the spirit warrior legacy does a similar
>change?

Pretty much. Consider it a bonus to making saves that is not/less subject to diminishing returns on -save. Which itself might or might not apply to save mental, I can't remember.

>Additional to the answer to saves versus mental above,
>is the benefit of saves versus mental on top of resi mental
>going to be dramatic or mediocre?

Depends on your int/wis and other factors. For example, berserking makes it a little harder to make mental saves -- you can effectively consider it to be +save mental to some degree.

>Are you better off choosing
>one or the other and not both for a rough and tumble lifestyle
>in which you might encounter a bard but aren't 100% certain?

Hard to say.

Some of this is going to get number crunchy most probably.

Tune, for the cost of some mana, essentially makes your next song on a given instrument better.

help 2122
TUNE
Syntax: tune
tune <instrument>

For especially crucial performances, a bard may carefully tune an instrument
so its sound is perfect for the occasion. A tuned instrument will behave as
if of higher quality the next time it is played, assuming too much time has
not elapsed after the tuning.

If no instrument is specified, the skill will default to the one the bard
is holding.

See also: INSTRUMENTS

Does this increase the song level sung with that instrument or the instrument level itself? Does the level of the instrument even have an affect on song quality (which would follow finding and IDing higher level instruments would be superior instruments even when a lower level one might suit a given repertoire better) Or are you to always use compare without exception and in optimal cases always use the instrument suited to the repertoire you switched to?

>Or are you to always use compare without
>exception and in optimal cases always use the instrument
>suited to the repertoire you switched to?

Pretty much. It's potentially more complicated than that in a few weird cases but if you do this you're going to pick the optimal instrument 99% of the time.

People keep asking for clarification on what repertoires work best, okay, and worst, for specific songs. I think this is because somehow the root problem is the repertoire helpfile isn't clarifying what repertoires do exactly.



Using this command, a bard may select one of four lyrical repertoires:
Comedic, Epic, Romantic, or Tragic - each having its own strengths and
weaknesses.

One can periodically switch repertoires to suit his or her current mood
or needs. Repertoire-switching requires a great deal of emotional focus,
however, so bard guildmasters strongly advise that a bard predominately
adhere to the repertoire that most reflects one's personality and style.

It is also said that instrument choice can accentuate or hinder performance
depending on one's chosen repertoire.

(For brevity and clarification I have purposefully left out the preferred repertoire portion. Honestly it's clear enough. SONGZ U SING IN THIS REPERTOIRE U PEEK BASED ON UR ROLE SING BETTAR BUT DON'T BE A NOOB AND USE DIS REPERTOIRE ONLEE THROUGHOUT UR LYFE EVEN IF U GET EDGEZ TO IMPROVE SONGS IN EET.)

So, now that I'm to the actual question and the helpfile is up there.

For every song, there is the 'best' repertoire and a 'worst' repertoire. That much is obvious.

Can a song have two 'worst' repertoires?

Does a song have 1 best, 1 worst and 2 'mediocre' or is there a 'good' and 'bad' repertoire in between 'best' and 'worst'?

Can your instrument quality eclipse the affects of singing a song in it's 'best' repertoire if the instrument is of high enough quality and you're singing in a mediocre repertoire?

Do you choose repertoire based on instrument or your instrument based on a given repertoire?

>Can a song have two 'worst' repertoires?

Most don't, but yes, a song can.

>Does a song have 1 best, 1 worst and 2 'mediocre' or is there
>a 'good' and 'bad' repertoire in between 'best' and 'worst'?

Depends on the song, but most are one best, one worst, and two mediocre.

>Can your instrument quality eclipse the affects of singing a
>song in it's 'best' repertoire if the instrument is of high
>enough quality and you're singing in a mediocre repertoire?

Depends on the song... maybe. Generally I would say no.

>Do you choose repertoire based on instrument or your
>instrument based on a given repertoire?

I usually pick an instrument based on my repertoire when I'm playing a bard.

Did Scrimbul send you a case of beer, or what? I never get answers like this to my questions. Wah.

And no offense to you.

But some of your questions have obvious answers. I would give an example but it's too early in the morning to search.

Whereas I wouldn't have asked these questions with the level of breadth and detail I did if I didn't get asked these exact questions myself just for saying 'yeah, I've played a few bards and they're one of my favorite classes due to their versatility.'

I'm hardly the most knowledgeable about this class but those who are in the know better than me aren't exactly the most available, forthcoming, polite or sportsmanlike players of the class.

It helps that I actually know the answers to some of the bard questions without looking.

Most of your last round of thief questions I didn't.